Would PS be a good for for my son?

[briansmama]

I know I'm posting on a homeschool board but you all have been SO helpful to me (and my family) that I want to ask this here and see what you all think.

 

My ds is 9 1/2yrs old, and has always been homeschooled. He shows signs of giftedness (took his first standardized test last year in 3rd and came back at a 7th grade reading/language level, 4th grade in math, despite us not using standardized curric and not completing half his math curric for grade 3). He just "gets" things quickly, and I'm certain that academically homeschooling is not only meeting his needs but is the best choice for him.

 

However, he literally sucks all of the oxygen out of the room. He's stressing his family out, especially his younger brother. He can be very critical, negative, angry, controlling, etc. These issues are all magnified if he has ANY gluten/dairy so I work very hard to keep him off both. But, he's also extremely athletic and spends lots of time training in his chosen sport outside of my presence and at times he eats things he shouldn't. And I suffer the consequences the next day. So does his brother and our family.

 

90 percent of the time he and I get along great but that 10 percent is really awful. Disrespect, yelling, screaming, laughing at me, etc. It's horrible. Dh does his best but he is not into harsh discipline so he is getting it from ds too. He coaches his sports, spends TONS of time with ds, talks things out w him, etc, and when ds is off, he calls Dh names, screams at him, etc.

 

It came to a head last weekend. Dh said he doesn't know what to do. I said I knew it was because we were trying to get ds used to goat's milk kefir for his bone health (big mistake). Dh was ready to ship ds off to military school. He said he didn't think the local ps would be the best place for him but the private schools here aren't excellent (and they are pricey). He just thinks that he needs to take a step back from ds and find a place for him to go so I can get a break too. He thinks ds is negatively affecting our entire family. I only think he negatively affects our family 10 percent of the time, and it's much less severe if ds stays off dairy.

 

So my DH and dear friend who has a son much like ours both feel part of the problem (aside from the obvious dairy) is that ds needs to be let out of his "box" and out of the current dynamic. Mainly the argument they both made individually was that ds needs to learn how to deal and he isn't learning that at home. He needs to be in an environment where he is forced to deal with the frustrations he gets angry about at home. This makes some sense as he gets angry with his brother for everything from breathing loudly to sucking his finger to pulling the seatbelt too much to scuffing the seat in the car. He also becomes angry with us for grinding teeth, chipping nails, taking too long to respond to him, etc.

 

Thoughts on this? Would school help this kid AT ALL?

 

ETA: we are NOT considering military school- just mentioned that Dh said that because he was so frustrated, and he only said that to me. He just wants a place for ds to go to learn how to deal or suffer the natural consequences. Ds is not a flexible kid.

[Julie of KY]

I think he needs to learn to deal with his frustrations. I'm not sure what the best path is to teach him, but I don't think public school is the answer to learning to deal with everything.

 

Public school could part of your answer IF it is paired with some training in how to deal with his frustrations. Otherwise, I think public school would be a place that he would have a negative experience based on how he deals with things.

[8filltheheart]

I know I'm posting on a homeschool board but you all have been SO helpful to me (and my family) that I want to ask this here and see what you all think.

 

My ds is 9 1/2yrs old, and has always been homeschooled. He shows signs of giftedness (took his first standardized test last year in 3rd and came back at a 7th grade reading/language level, 4th grade in math, despite us not using standardized curric and not completing half his math curric for grade 3). He just "gets" things quickly, and I'm certain that academically homeschooling is not only meeting his needs but is the best choice for him.

 

However, he literally sucks all of the oxygen out of the room. He's stressing his family out, especially his younger brother. He can be very critical, negative, angry, controlling, etc. These issues are all magnified if he has ANY gluten/dairy so I work very hard to keep him off both. But, he's also extremely athletic and spends lots of time training in his chosen sport outside of my presence and at times he eats things he shouldn't. And I suffer the consequences the next day. So does his brother and our family.

 

90 percent of the time he and I get along great but that 10 percent is really awful. Disrespect, yelling, screaming, laughing at me, etc. It's horrible. Dh does his best but he is not into harsh discipline so he is getting it from ds too. He coaches his sports, spends TONS of time with ds, talks things out w him, etc, and when ds is off, he calls Dh names, screams at him, etc.

 

It came to a head last weekend. Dh said he doesn't know what to do. I said I knew it was because we were trying to get ds used to goat's milk kefir for his bone health (big mistake). Dh was ready to ship ds off to military school. He said he didn't think the local ps would be the best place for him but the private schools here aren't excellent (and they are pricey). He just thinks that he needs to take a step back from ds and find a place for him to go so I can get a break too. He thinks ds is negatively affecting our entire family. I only think he negatively affects our family 10 percent of the time, and it's much less severe if ds stays off dairy.

 

So my DH and dear friend who has a son much like ours both feel part of the problem (aside from the obvious dairy) is that ds needs to be let out of his "box" and out of the current dynamic. Mainly the argument they both made individually was that ds needs to learn how to deal and he isn't learning that at home. He needs to be in an environment where he is forced to deal with the frustrations he gets angry about at home. This makes some sense as he gets angry with his brother for everything from breathing loudly to sucking his finger to pulling the seatbelt too much to scuffing the seat in the car. He also becomes angry with us for grinding teeth, chipping nails, taking too long to respond to him, etc.

 

Thoughts on this? Would school help this kid AT ALL?

 

ETA: we are NOT considering military school- just mentioned that Dh said that because he was so frustrated, and he only said that to me. He just wants a place for ds to go to learn how to deal or suffer the natural consequences. Ds is not a flexible kid.

Have you ever had him evaluated? I personally would pursue testing, therapy/counseling bc schools are not going to correct behavioral issues and often amplify them. Our ds was on his best behavior at school and would no longer be able to hold it together when he got home and would completely meltdown. School made things 100x worse at home. But, it really sounds like you should pursue behavioral modification therapies.

[CrunchyGirl]

Since you know he has severe gluten and dairy issues have you looked at the GAPS diet? His gut may be seriously damaged and many people see incredible behavioral changes in their kids with GAPS.

[HS Mom in NC]

Diane Craft deals with dietary related behavioral issues and right brained thinking. She speaks at homeschool conventions.  Maybe you should google her name if you haven't already. As I recall, she's located in Colorado.

I'm having a hard time imagining what a teacher with 30+ (the norm around here) kids in a classroom can do better than you can?  What kind of discipline can (s)he do that you can't? If (s)he CAN provide some sort of discipline in the classroom, what will it cost?  Daily distractions the teacher and other students will have to put up with if his bad behavior happens in a classroom?  How can (s)he customize anything to meet your child's individual needs better than you can?  What kind of medical/dietary options can (s)he provide that you can't? How will his very difficult behavior play out socially with a bunch of kids who don't love and adore him? If he flies off the handle over every little annoyance caused by one sibling, imagine the number of annoyances a whole classroom of kids can cause. Who has time in a classroom setting with dozens of kids to stop and teach a child to cope with things that set him off?

My SIL and a close friend are ps teachers and based on everything they say to me off the record, I don't think they would like to have a child like that added to their classrooms.  They'd be very angry about it and tell me AAAAAAAALLLLLLLL about it.  Most of them want to teach academics, not deal with significant behavioral issues.

 

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but based on what you're using to define giftedness, he's not. He's bright.  My oldest could read fluently, like an adult, by her 5th birthday.  She's not gifted.  My middle daughter tested into college level calculus at 15 having never taken anything higher than a little Trigonometry.  She's not gifted. Giftedness is one of the biggest scams going right now in America.

[Arcadia]

I'll go for an evaluation. A good friend was asked by her son's preschool and elementary school teachers and principal to get him evaluated for ADHD. Turn out he did not "qualify" for ADHD each time, the last time being evaluated at 8 years old.  However when my friend gave up and transferred him from a play based school to a structured school, her son's behavior and moods improve significantly.

 

My older actually thrives on military precision. He actually gets upset with less homework/ a light day because it breaks his rhythm. He has a meltdown if he gets a "sugar spike".  He is also my sensory kid and my younger can be louder than 30 kids in a classroom with the strong echo in our home. We often do school work at the library because there is no echo there and I can put my kids at two extreme corners of a very big children's section.

 

There is also the twin dynamics. I had twins classmates that were at each other's throat by middle school.  The parents requested for them to be separated at two different high school. I have cousins who are twins, at times their relationship were strained. If you have a twin board you frequent, I would post for advice there too.

[kwg]

When I first read your post, I thought you could always try school.  If it isn't working out you can just take him out again.  PP mention testing and I think that would be a great idea also.  

 

 

Mainly I was thinking that for your other children and you- sometimes it is hard to see the forest for the trees and all that. 

[Dmmetler]

Do you have any one or two day a week cottage schools in your area? It might be that having someone else to be responsible to for schoolwork would help let you get back into a "parent role" and give breathing room. DD tends to the negative as well, and tends to believe others over me, so outsourcing some classes really helps.

[ktgrok]

Have you had him evaluated for sensory issues, or other issues? The things you mention that frustrate him are sensory issues. It might be that the nail clipping or teeth grinding sounds, to him, as bad as nails on a chalkboard or shrieking at the top of your lungs sounds to you. If you posted that he was annoyed by those kinds of sounds you wouldn't think he needs to just get over it, you'd understand why it bothered him. This may be the same thing. My son was diagnosed with multiple issues at 11, but it got bad around age 9. You son sounds like he CAN'T deal with certain things, not that he WON'T deal with them, there is a difference.

 

I'd look into causes before throwing him in the deep end of public school.

 

Remember, depression/stress/anxiety in a child looks like anger. An angry child is one that needs help, not tougher discipline.

[ktgrok]

[ Giftedness is one of the biggest scams going right now in America.

Huh? I thought it ws defined by IQ scores? Either you have that score, or you don't, right? That's how access is given for services here, anyway. (just wondering how i was either scammed, or scammed someone, to have my son labeled "gifted". Or myself, for that matter.)

[briansmama]

Have you ever had him evaluated? I personally would pursue testing, therapy/counseling bc schools are not going to correct behavioral issues and often amplify them. Our ds was on his best behavior at school and would no longer be able to hold it together when he got home and would completely meltdown. School made things 100x worse at home. But, it really sounds like you should pursue behavioral modification therapies.

Yes, we are looking into evaluations as well and I did receive some very helpful suggestions in another thread I posted in this forum recently asking about professionals to look into. Thank you for sharing your experience with me, this is very helpful. I've heard that some kids will hold it all in at school only to unload more at home, but this is a reminder that it is very likely to happen here.

[briansmama]

Diane Craft deals with dietary related behavioral issues and right brained thinking. She speaks at homeschool conventions. Maybe you should google her name if you haven't already. As I recall, she's located in Colorado.

 

I'm having a hard time imagining what a teacher with 30+ (the norm around here) kids in a classroom can do better than you can? What kind of discipline can (s)he do that you can't? If (s)he CAN provide some sort of discipline in the classroom, what will it cost? Daily distractions the teacher and other students will have to put up with if his bad behavior happens in a classroom? How can (s)he customize anything to meet your child's individual needs better than you can? What kind of medical/dietary options can (s)he provide that you can't? How will his very difficult behavior play out socially with a bunch of kids who don't love and adore him? If he flies off the handle over every little annoyance caused by one sibling, imagine the number of annoyances a whole classroom of kids can cause. Who has time in a classroom setting with dozens of kids to stop and teach a child to cope with things that set him off?

 

My SIL and a close friend are ps teachers and based on everything they say to me off the record, I don't think they would like to have a child like that added to their classrooms. They'd be very angry about it and tell me AAAAAAAALLLLLLLL about it. Most of them want to teach academics, not deal with significant behavioral issues.

 

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but based on what you're using to define giftedness, he's not. He's bright. My oldest could read fluently, like an adult, by her 5th birthday. She's not gifted. My middle daughter tested into college level calculus at 15 having never taken anything higher than a little Trigonometry. She's not gifted. Giftedness is one of the biggest scams going right now in America.

This is very helpful to me, thanks for your honesty. The reason I mention the possibility of giftedness is that my son shares the intensity that many gifted kids also demonstrate, so even if he's not, I've found support and help from articles in SENG and in the Gifted Homeschool Forum.

 

Around other adults/teachers my ds does very well. He's enrolled in science classes, sports, music classes, and all tell me that he's a pleasure to have in class/on the team. He really functions well outside of our family, which is why we are exploring other options. But, much of what you say here I completely agree with- they can't individualize anything for him in class and homeschooling definitely meets his academic needs. He has a group of friends he does well with socially, but these seem to be the only kids he likes. They all play sports together. He is very negative about other kids in his classes/homeschool group (to me).

[briansmama]

Have you had him evaluated for sensory issues, or other issues? The things you mention that frustrate him are sensory issues. It might be that the nail clipping or teeth grinding sounds, to him, as bad as nails on a chalkboard or shrieking at the top of your lungs sounds to you. If you posted that he was annoyed by those kinds of sounds you wouldn't think he needs to just get over it, you'd understand why it bothered him. This may be the same thing. My son was diagnosed with multiple issues at 11, but it got bad around age 9. You son sounds like he CAN'T deal with certain things, not that he WON'T deal with them, there is a difference.

 

I'd look into causes before throwing him in the deep end of public school.

 

Remember, depression/stress/anxiety in a child looks like anger. An angry child is one that needs help, not tougher discipline.

Yes, I suspect sensory issues. He's affected by nail chipping/teeth grinding to the point of tears. When he was younger he was greatly affected by tags/sock seams but isn't now, or at least it doesn't make him angry. After we changed his diet he stopped crying about those things (around age 4-5). At age 5 he began pulling out clumps of hair so we went to an ND who did a full lab work up and found an abnormal bacteria in his system that she said could cause behavioral issues. We worked to eliminate it and he hasn't pulled his hair out since.

 

Good point that anger can mask other issues. The cost of an eval by a pediatric neuro is $3800-5K around here. I do believe it could help give us answers but not treatment (we won't do drug therapy). We will do another lab work up from an ND that specializes in kids with sensory issues though, but that will not give us the actual answers. You have me more concerned though so maybe I do need to look into child psych eval.

[briansmama]

^{School would help here, but only because we have school pyschologists in every building. Basically his behavior would get him a referral to the psych where he learn how to take responsibility for his reactions and cope with frustration and anger in a more appropriate way. You can get a referral from your pediatrician and do the same thing with your community resources. In the meantime, you can work with him by modeling what he should do when he feels certain feelings. Anger...count to 10, put your ear protectors on, excuse yourself to your room, etc. rather than lashing out. The idea that he is the boss and tells the rest of the family what to do is something you'll have to get help for..the peds around here have a discipline program they usually recommend the parents attend.}

 

^{At 9.5 in August going into fourth grade, he's among the older students (Dec cutoff here) and would likely be very frustrated with the academics and the sensory issues in the full inclusion classroom. However, your district may be different; talk to the principal of your zoned school and see what they have to offer.}

Thank you for explaining how it works within the ps system. My friend also suggested enrolling him just for the eval from the school. But I called the principal yesterday and while he was very kind and got back to me right away and listened to all of my concerns, he basically explained a completely standardized approach with no room for individualized instruction. I couldn't even choose his reading list, and the books scheduled for 4th grade are below his reading level. They are spending the entire year studying the state for history. That would cover about 2 weeks for my ds at home. Reading comp comes from photocopied excerpts from literature, not the actual lit itself. Houghton Mifflin is used for Language arts. They get 25min of science. I was not impressed.

 

TAG is another issue- if he tested in the 97 percentile he'd qualify for the TAG magnet here but it's full so even if he did qualify he'd be wait listed. They have pull-out TAG at the regular school and they will work with the parents to individualize but we are already doing that for him outside of the school. They will not seek TAG testing until he's been in the class for a solid year.

[Arcadia]

The reason I mention the possibility of giftedness is that my son shares the intensity that many gifted kids also demonstrate, so even if he's not, I've found support and help from articles in SENG and in the Gifted Homeschool Forum. .

My older is intense and sensory.

Books that have help me are

Raising your spirited child

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0060739665

The out-of-sync child

http://www.amazon.com/Out-Sync-Child-Carol-Kranowitz/dp/0399531653

Raising a sensory smart child

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0143115340

 

My SIL has 16 year old identical twins. Just remembered that, some very mild warfare there.

ETA:

A SAHM friend's son who is autistic (Asperger) is in public school for many years with an IEP. It is really hard to tell what kind of experience PS will be. Another working friend has a ADHD boy and except for one teacher have a very good experience with the school and her son likes it there. My older had great PS teachers who accommodated him so he was happy when I pick him up from school, however our assigned middle school would not be a good fit for either of my boys..

[trulycrabby]

Youve gotten excellent advice. In addition to whatever you decide to do about school, my suggestion would be to try to get tighter control of his diet. If you don't already do so, then send plenty of food that he can eat with him to his sports training, and tell him that he absolutely cannot eat eat any other food if he wants to continue playing sports. Speak to his coaches, too, so they can try to keep a close eye on any food sharing. 

[ktgrok]

I'm going to throw something out there, just because he reminds me a bit of my son, but realize I'm probably totally off base, not making a diagnosis, etc etc...but maybe read a bit about boys with Aspergers. Or at least read the book, "In the Mix", which is awesome and touches on several different things. Work with him against his issues, rather than against him.

[HS Mom in NC]

Huh? I thought it ws defined by IQ scores? Either you have that score, or you don't, right? That's how access is given for services here, anyway. (just wondering how i was either scammed, or scammed someone, to have my son labeled "gifted". Or myself, for that matter.)

 

Some use IQ scores.  IQ testing is still a highly controversial measure of intelligence.  It's still hotly debated as being worthwhile at all.  The OP mentioned grade level testing which again is still extremely controversial and anyone who ever compared multiple grade level type curriculla and multiple standardized tests can easily see that this varies so dramatically, again it's not really meaningful.  Historically, people like Edison and Einstein were considered unintelligent and unteachable by those in the education industry.  It's funny now, but what did they think was intelligent then? Regurgitating answers on a test? That just tests recall. 

 

Also, the typical Honors or AP class today was considered a standard class back in the mid 20th century.  What is now considered a standard class was considered remedial then.  It used to be that some standardized tests (I believe it was the SAT) have removed things like analogies because people were flunking them in increasing rates.  So, to keep scores up they simply removed the harder parts from the equation.  Also, grade inflation is chronic right now.  The percentage of people getting As in high schools and colleges is skyrocketing but humans are not inherently, over all, more intelligent than they were 1 or 2 generations ago.  

 

This is all evidence of a cultural shift in America where people are finding ways get the label "gifted."  I must know a dozen parents who are convinced their kids are gifted.  It's so common now that comedians joke about how all the kids in their hometown are above average. 

 

Don't put too much stock in shifting sands like giftedness testing-or any kind of standardized testing.  If a child is doing something truly extraordinary, like complex, abstract math in the elementary years before children that age have those parts of their brains developed, yeah, the kid's probably gifted.  If the kid has never taken a music lesson but can play an instrument masterfully, yep-probably gifted.  If a child has never heard a second language from anyone or anything other than a book and still manages to master it, we're probably looking at a gifted kid.  It has to be extraordinary, not just on the outer spectrum of normal.

 

People who take quickly to subjects being taught used to just be considered bright or advanced.  Then there were the masses who were moving at the pace most people moved at while being instructed.  Then there were the kids who needed a lot more repetition than the bright or average kids to get something.  They were just slower.  Now there seems to be pressure on parents (been there) to believe that because their child is above the average pace that it's a special gift.  The vast majority of the time, it isn't. We need to go back to the days when people recognized a broader range of normal. 

 

We also need to be very wary as taxpayers of special labeling.  Anything the government subsidizes, it gets more of.  Increase funding for gifted classes or special needs classes and you will see increasing numbers of children diagnosed that way.  If you create some sort of "special in a positive way" label for bright or above average kids, there will be an increased desire for people to get that label for themselves or their children. Are there truly gifted people in the world?  Absolutely, but not at the increasing rate we're seeing these days.

[gratitude]

The best Christian resource I have read for behavior problems was written by a homeschool mom who successfully gained authority over her kids and produced children who learned to deal with frustration and not lose their temper. I know reading it helped our parenting & it does promote homeschooling. From the sounds of it school could actually make it worse. More of a band aid that makes it go away 7 hours a day but doesn't solve the real problems.

 

I can not link on my phone but google Raising Godly Tomotoes by Elizabeth Krueger. The book can be bought from her. I have read a lot of parenting books and it is the only one I recommend for real results.

 

Prayers for success. Do you think he is worn down from sports? I know my boys can melt during a sports season this young. Perhaps those old days of no sports before 7 th grade was wisdom.

[ktgrok]

Some use IQ scores.  IQ testing is still a highly controversial measure of intelligence.  It's still hotly debated as being worthwhile at all.  The OP mentioned grade level testing which again is still extremely controversial and anyone who ever compared multiple grade level type curriculla and multiple standardized tests can easily see that this varies so dramatically, again it's not really meaningful.  Historically, people like Edison and Einstein were considered unintelligent and unteachable by those in the education industry.  It's funny now, but what did they think was intelligent then? Regurgitating answers on a test? That just tests recall. 

 

Also, the typical Honors or AP class today was considered a standard class back in the mid 20th century.  What is now considered a standard class was considered remedial then.  It used to be that some standardized tests (I believe it was the SAT) have removed things like analogies because people were flunking them in increasing rates.  So, to keep scores up they simply removed the harder parts from the equation.  Also, grade inflation is chronic right now.  The percentage of people getting As in high schools and colleges is skyrocketing but humans are not inherently, over all, more intelligent than they were 1 or 2 generations ago.  

 

This is all evidence of a cultural shift in America where people are finding ways get the label "gifted."  I must know a dozen parents who are convinced their kids are gifted.  It's so common now that comedians joke about how all the kids in their hometown are above average. 

 

Don't put too much stock in shifting sands like giftedness testing-or any kind of standardized testing.  If a child is doing something truly extraordinary, like complex, abstract math in the elementary years before children that age have those parts of their brains developed, yeah, the kid's probably gifted.  If the kid has never taken a music lesson but can play an instrument masterfully, yep-probably gifted.  If a child has never heard a second language from anyone or anything other than a book and still manages to master it, we're probably looking at a gifted kid.  It has to be extraordinary, not just on the outer spectrum of normal.

 

People who take quickly to subjects being taught used to just be considered bright or advanced.  Then there were the masses who were moving at the pace most people moved at while being instructed.  Then there were the kids who needed a lot more repetition than the bright or average kids to get something.  They were just slower.  Now there seems to be pressure on parents (been there) to believe that because their child is above the average pace that it's a special gift.  The vast majority of the time, it isn't. We need to go back to the days when people recognized a broader range of normal. 

 

We also need to be very wary as taxpayers of special labeling.  Anything the government subsidizes, it gets more of.  Increase funding for gifted classes or special needs classes and you will see increasing numbers of children diagnosed that way.  If you create some sort of "special in a positive way" label for bright or above average kids, there will be an increased desire for people to get that label for themselves or their children. Are there truly gifted people in the world?  Absolutely, but not at the increasing rate we're seeing these days.

Ah, ok..think we are just talking semantics then. I'm using the definition of my area, which would be in the top percentile of IQ/testing in the country....and with the idea that it just means they learn things more quickly/easily than others. Not that they are savants, or geniuses, which is what you seem to mean by gifted. So what you call extremely bright I would call gifted, what you call gifted I'd call genius or savant.

[lewelma]

The best book I ever found is called The Explosive Child.  It is written by a psychologist who has a clinic for kids like these, and he describes in very accessible detail how *specifically* to parent these children.  It is a very very practical book, and saved our home.

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Explosive-Child-Understanding-Chronically/dp/006077939X

 

Ruth in NZ

[briansmama]

Youve gotten excellent advice. In addition to whatever you decide to do about school, my suggestion would be to try to get tighter control of his diet. If you don't already do so, then send plenty of food that he can eat with him to his sports training, and tell him that he absolutely cannot eat eat any other food if he wants to continue playing sports. Speak to his coaches, too, so they can try to keep a close eye on any food sharing.

Yes, this is great advice and I do know this makes a huge difference in our household. The problem is that we like going out to eat. It is extremely hard to find a place we all like that offers GF and CF options so we will make great progress all week, then the weekend comes and we may let a little dairy sneak in on his gluten free pizza, or a little gluten sneak in on his French fries with a GF burger. And I'm always the one pointing out the related diet/behavior the next day when ds is fighting too much with his brother and arguing with us over why he's right. Ugh.

[briansmama]

The best book I ever found is called The Explosive Child. It is written by a psychologist who has a clinic for kids like these, and he describes in very accessible detail how *specifically* to parent these children. It is a very very practical book, and saved our home.

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Explosive-Child-Understanding-Chronically/dp/006077939X

 

Ruth in NZ

Thank you thank you thank you! I downloaded this today and listened to the first half on my walk and was able to immediately use the suggestions for collaboratively helping my son problem solve. I still have a ways to go, but so far it encouraged me to be more flexible in how I handle my son's frustrations and reactions.

[go_go_gadget]

The book suggested sounds great, and I just wanted to add, as a mother of a kid with behavioral reactions to gluten and dairy, I would imagine that sending him to a place where those foods will be abundant and consumed by his friends would make living with him exponentially harder. Good luck!

[briansmama]

I'm going to throw something out there, just because he reminds me a bit of my son, but realize I'm probably totally off base, not making a diagnosis, etc etc...but maybe read a bit about boys with Aspergers. Or at least read the book, "In the Mix", which is awesome and touches on several different things. Work with him against his issues, rather than against him.

Ok, so I don't think you are totally off base at all. I've investigated it because there are a few symptoms that caused me to look into Aspergers (mainly when he's consumed gluten/dairy) but we went to an ND who was known for working with spectrum kids and she didn't see it. His ped also doesn't see it. The older he gets though the more I wonder because now we are seeing social issues that we didn't see when he was younger. But he does have some sensory issues as well so I will read "In the Mix"- thank you for the book rec!

[briansmama]

The best Christian resource I have read for behavior problems was written by a homeschool mom who successfully gained authority over her kids and produced children who learned to deal with frustration and not lose their temper. I know reading it helped our parenting & it does promote homeschooling. From the sounds of it school could actually make it worse. More of a band aid that makes it go away 7 hours a day but doesn't solve the real problems.

 

I can not link on my phone but google Raising Godly Tomotoes by Elizabeth Krueger. The book can be bought from her. I have read a lot of parenting books and it is the only one I recommend for real results.

 

Prayers for success. Do you think he is worn down from sports? I know my boys can melt during a sports season this young. Perhaps those old days of no sports before 7 th grade was wisdom.

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and the book title. Sports are my ds outlet. He hasn't been participating in team sports this summer and that is likely part of our problem. He's an intense guy and playing is definitely when he's the happiest/calmest, provided he doesn't eat anything he shouldn't while training.

[Arcadia]

He's an intense guy and playing is definitely when he's the happiest/calmest, provided he doesn't eat anything he shouldn't while training.

Some kids do need to burn off more energy than others :) 

What help my older who is sensory to food but not intolerant/allergic is that he gets to pack his own food into his lunch bag when going out.  My boys actually own a few lunch bags each :o   That prevents a meltdown from him because he is hungry.  He is much better now at coping but used to need his food immediately.

[kiwik]

Yes, this is great advice and I do know this makes a huge difference in our household. The problem is that we like going out to eat. It is extremely hard to find a place we all like that offers GF and CF options so we will make great progress all week, then the weekend comes and we may let a little dairy sneak in on his gluten free pizza, or a little gluten sneak in on his French fries with a GF burger. And I'm always the one pointing out the related diet/behavior the next day when ds is fighting too much with his brother and arguing with us over why he's right. Ugh.

That is an issue of priorities. Which is most important- going out or a healthy household? If you are doing dietary control you have to do it all the time. You don't have the stuff in the house unless you can trust him round it and if he eats it other places then he stays home until he gets the message.

[8filltheheart]

Yes, this is great advice and I do know this makes a huge difference in our household. The problem is that we like going out to eat. It is extremely hard to find a place we all like that offers GF and CF options so we will make great progress all week, then the weekend comes and we may let a little dairy sneak in on his gluten free pizza, or a little gluten sneak in on his French fries with a GF burger. And I'm always the one pointing out the related diet/behavior the next day when ds is fighting too much with his brother and arguing with us over why he's right. Ugh.

I recommend keeping a daily food journal and a behavioral diary. Keep accurate records and try to remain impartial in the evaluation of his behaviors. The easiest way to do it is having a checklist of behaviors and attempting to record the number of times certain behaviors occur. This will help you form a more concrete correlation between diet and behaviors.

 

We thought our ds had a list of food intolerances, but he really did not. Keeping good records really helped. We learned to do the same thing when he went on different trial meds, though at that pt he was old enough to add his own "how I felt today" portion. This was a very important evaluation tool vs winging what we thought we saw.

 

Sounds like there are multiple dynamics that should be re-evaluated and prioritized. A good child/family therapist could help you establish strategies.

[briansmama]

This is an excellent example of a coping strategy that helps the child take responsibility for remaining in emotional control.

 

With the sensitivities, the child learns to recognize when his tension is building, then removes himself to a safe place or takes an action so he can calm himself. So, noise bothering? Put the ear protectors on or leave the location instead of proceeding to meltdown or ordering the world to stop producing noise. One cannot change the world, one can only adjust to it. One can learn emotional control.

Ear protectors! This is such a great idea. My Dh took our other son this morning so I could take my oldest out to a cafe and have a nice long talk. We tried to come up with strategies to help prevent his 2 biggest frustrations and one idea was to put in headphones when he's in the car so he can tune out and listen to an audiobook or music. I like the ear protectors! I'll offer those too. Thanks!

[Arcadia]

Ear protectors! This is such a great idea. My Dh took our other son this morning so I could take my oldest out to a cafe and have a nice long talk. We tried to come up with strategies to help prevent his 2 biggest frustrations and one idea was to put in headphones when he's in the car so he can tune out and listen to an audiobook or music. I like the ear protectors! I'll offer those too. Thanks!

These corded 3M ear plugs are what I have resident in my handbag.  It does not block out all the noise but reduce enough to make it more bearable. My 7 year old is the chatterbox, both my 8 year old and me are sensory to noise.  Even my "normal" hubby couldn't take his noise sometimes.  I might get the 3M Peltor Junior Earmuffs for my older as his seatwork is more this year and earmuffs are more comfortable than ear plugs.

For gluten free products, Whole Foods has a good range in their bakery department.

 

The examination hall is very quiet so my boy has no issue taking  state standardized tests. Just a FYI.

 

ETA:

The ear plugs were great for fireworks and fire alarms too. We were in an art museum when something set off the fire alarm.  Nobody thought it was weird when I pull out ear plugs while we were orderly ushered out to the designated waiting area.

[briansmama]

Arcadia, thank you very much! Off to check out those links, you can bet we will be ordering ear muffs and ear plugs when we purchase school supplies soon. Such a great idea, I'm embarrassed I didn't think of it myself.

[MamaSprout]

 

This is all evidence of a cultural shift in America where people are finding ways get the label "gifted."  I must know a dozen parents who are convinced their kids are gifted.  It's so common now that comedians joke about how all the kids in their hometown are above average. 

 

Don't put too much stock in shifting sands like giftedness testing-or any kind of standardized testing.  If a child is doing something truly extraordinary, like complex, abstract math in the elementary years before children that age have those parts of their brains developed, yeah, the kid's probably gifted.  If the kid has never taken a music lesson but can play an instrument masterfully, yep-probably gifted.  If a child has never heard a second language from anyone or anything other than a book and still manages to master it, we're probably looking at a gifted kid.  It has to be extraordinary, not just on the outer spectrum of normal.

 

Lake Wobegon's been above average for decades....

 

Although I do agree people do jump on the gifted band wagon rather quickly, some of what you describe is "prodigy" not "gifted". Two similar, but different things.

[Snowfall]

School might be an option to give yourselves a break from one another, but it is NOT going to solve his  behavioral problems. It just isn't. That's not what school is for, that's not what teachers and counselors focus on, and that's not how school is designed. It will.not.work. He sounds like my daughter, who was just in public school last year, 3rd grade, for the first time. She had been homeschooled K through 2nd grade, then I went through a nasty divorce and she had to go to school that year. Not only did it not help her one iota, it made things WORSE.

 

The reason people think school is going to work is only because they see that a family is doing something unusual and they think, "Aha! That's the problem!" Even people who aren't anti-homeschooling have a tendency to do that. It's just...it's silly, quite frankly. No offense or anything, but it is.

 

Additionally, I absolutely agree with the PP who stated that you shouldn't put much stock in those test scores. Standardized tests do NOT measure giftedness. Not at all.

 

I think your son seriously, seriously needs an evaluation by a neuropsychologist. You'll find some answers there. :) Oh, and make sure you find one who isn't anti-homeschooling. Ask them. They'll tell you the truth. This is the second time we're having our daughter evaluated (we're not completely satisfied with the depth of the first test) and the report is going to include recommendations for how to help our daughter both at school, should she ever need to go back, AND in our homeschool. That way, whatever we do with her, we will know how best to help her. Ask for that. :)

[Pen]

In general, I would not think school would help the behavioral problems, and might make them worse.  Ironically, the once exception to that I can think of is a military school I know of (actually was called a leadership academy, but basically a military school), in part because the rules of the school had to do not only with behavior in school, but also with how the students treated people outside of school including their own families.   And also it had a tremendous amount of physical outlet during each day, such as rope climbing and so on which tended to help settle some very physical kids.   Kids I met from there were extraordinarily pleasant to be around, and, amazingly, said they loved their school!  Apparently the methods used did not cause distress.   

 

I think your number one priority needs to be total, 100% all the time, avoidance of the foods that you believe trigger problems, for a significant length of time.  Not only is this important directly, but it also models your own ability to be consistent with that...  not to be lax and then expect him to be strict with himself during sports and other activities.  You are the adult.  Possibly going out will be something that the adults do together rarely with a babysitter or something like that for the kids.   But I would stay 100% totally away from things can cause behaviour problems for him, and see if your lives start to change in a few months as the current load of problem food wears off.  From what I have seen, also prepare for things possibly getting worse in the beginning of a "detox" withdrawal phase, which could even last a few weeks in some cases.  But I have seen children have remarkable improvements just from avoiding trigger foods.

 

Number 2 may need to be that the main goal being worked on each day in your homeschool (as would be the case in the military school I mention above) is attitude and behavior -- as being more important than math or reading or sports.   

 

I like "do overs" to practice getting behavior right--just as one might redo a wrong math problem.  You can say, "I think we need a do-over."   It keeps tension down since there is not added problem coming from upset and angry responses.

 

 

[Pen]

PS, I like the earmuffs idea, and since we have some earplugs, but they do not block noise enough I am going to check the suggested ones.  

 

We also have been helped by my ds carrying an easy snack in his pocket that is okay for him to eat (in his case some organic nuts)--it keeps from eating things he should not, but also makes it possible for him not to have problems ffom blood sugar going low and getting cranky.

[Pen]

Yes, this is great advice and I do know this makes a huge difference in our household. The problem is that we like going out to eat. It is extremely hard to find a place we all like that offers GF and CF options so we will make great progress all week, then the weekend comes and we may let a little dairy sneak in on his gluten free pizza, or a little gluten sneak in on his French fries with a GF burger. And I'm always the one pointing out the related diet/behavior the next day when ds is fighting too much with his brother and arguing with us over why he's right. Ugh.

 

 

Sorry that this post will be tougher than the previous, but I just saw the above.  

 

If it is an extreme situation of intolerance to these foods, even having foods prepared in a facility that has things with gluten or casein may be enough to cause problems, just as a tiny bit of peanut can be for some people.  And some problems may lurk in unsuspected places--like a bit of starch used to keep a wrapper from sticking to an otherwise gluten free item.

 

I think you are going to need to think of this as if it were life and death and be totally diligent, not "And I'm always the one pointing out the related diet/behavior the next day when ds is fighting too much with his brother and arguing with us over why he's right. Ugh."      Or, accept that you and your husband are promoting the behavior and take responsibility for doing so.   I think going to such restaurants with your son would be, for your son, a bit like taking an alcoholic into a bar and trying to get him to only drink water....it might work when he is over the addiction and sober for long enough, and mature enough to handle that, but for now it seems like asking for trouble.   He's only a 4th grader.  And you seem to expect him to have greater willpower than you have.

 

 There is no point, IMO, in getting high cost evaluations when you already  know there is something that is a trigger and you are not yet being diligent to stop it.

 

After you have done what you can to avoid the triggers faithfully and completely for around 6 months, if there is then still a problem, to me it would at that point make sense to go for further evaluations. 

[Pen]

...

We also need to be very wary as taxpayers of special labeling.  Anything the government subsidizes, it gets more of.  Increase funding for gifted classes or special needs classes and you will see increasing numbers of children diagnosed that way.  If you create some sort of "special in a positive way" label for bright or above average kids, there will be an increased desire for people to get that label for themselves or their children. ...

 

 

How do you want schools to deal with children who are at a significantly more advanced level than their more grade typical peers?   It sounds like you do not want OP to call her ds gifted lest he be considered for a TAG program and it would cost you tax money?  Although this is not a blatantly political campaign type post--say like rooting for a particular named politician would be, to me it does sound extremely political.

[nitascool]

You mentioned that your son had a infection of some sort in the past? I'd make sure it hasn't come back.
That would be my first step in the process of figuring out why my 9yo had so much anger and irritability. Children aren't naturally like this. My second step would be to make sure he is getting enough and the right kind of sleep... is he falling asleep within half an hour of going to bed? Is he reming? You can check to see if he is reming when he's been asleep about an hour look at his eyes...are his eyeballs move below his closed eyelids? If not to either question you'd want to get a sleep study. Third I'd look at his food... which you have and fix the issue. Then I'd see what else is going on.

Your son sound like he's got a lot of ADHD symptoms and a lot of SPD symptoms. Being distracted by sounds is partly a focus issue. Since you didn't see this in the toddler years it makes me think that it's not actually either. I'd look into vision issues. It's less expensive and a shorter wait time then a neuropsyc. evaluation and it's something you'd want to rule out anyway. Many kids with a certain vision issue called Convergence Insufficiency also have symptoms of ADHD or SPD. You can have 20/20 vision and still have CI, and read well above grade level and still have CI... so don't assume it's not the issue, make sure it's not. You will need to see a Developmental Ophthalmologist because a regular Ophthalmologist won't be able to diagnose CI. My guess is that more then one thing is going on with him.

My son is sensitive to gluten. He has been gf for a year and 5 months. He has had a few slip ups now and again. We all suffer the consequences when he does. Gluten causes similar issues in my ds as you are seeing. Extreme sensitivity to sounds, light, tags, scratchy cloths, annoyance in being in his own skin, were common occurrences before we removed the gluten. Not to mention the extreme brain fog.

Removing the gluten was the #1 best thing we have done for our son and our whole family. My son now asks people, "Does that have gluten in it?" before he eats something. He can now ask this question every time and if the answer is "yes" or "I don't know"... then he doesn't eat it. This was not an easily won battle, to teach a kid to say no to a cookie is hard.

First we had to make our son aware of what was causing his issues... we made some videos of his good behavior compared to his bad behavior. Then we showed him during a good behavior time (many tears were shed). Once he understood the real issue, that we knew he was a good boy with a bad behavior problem that he could not control on his own he was better able to allow change.

Then we made the no cheating rule. This was the most difficult for all of us. Learning that a little gluten is just as bad as a lot is a hard won truth. Over the last year and a half we've learned that going out to eat must not be looked at as a "treat time to cheat time" it is not a license to cheat. His diet is not a punishment, so he doesn't need a "treat". We can go to McDonalds and get a burger w/o a bun and he's used to that now. We can go to Domino's and get a gf pizza w/o cheese (when he was dairy free). If you get yeast flakes (tastes like cheese when baked) and bring then in they will add that to the pizza for you at most Domino's restaurants. Once we had that concept down (took us about 3 months) we went on to making sure he "never" eats gluten. Well that required consequences.
1. Having eaten gluten is not an excuse for bad behavior so when you behave badly you're banned from family life time (stuck alone in room isn't fun).
2. If you aren't responsible enough to monitor what you eat I will...we all became his food chaperones (can't go anywhere without one for 30 days. It takes 30 days to make a habit. Everyone in the family took charge of his diet (not fun for a younger sib to tell you how you can't eat that). We also removed it from our home while he detoxed.
3. Then he was given responsibility again. And he of course promptly screwed up. So he was banned from the offending site of temptation. Our poor boy didn't go to Nana's for a month until he understood just because she offers you a cookie doesn't mean you can have one. (For your son it would be the sports arena.)

At age 9 your son is old enough to take ownership of his diet if you take the steps necessary to train him. I've seen 2 & 3 year olds able to ask every time that (or similar) simple question.

With your sons food issue I'd be really concerned about putting him in PS. In our local PS the school is required to give every child (even the sack lunch kids) a well balanced meal, which includes grains. When visiting a PS lunch line we were told that every child had to have bread. When I explained that ds had a gluten allergy (too hard to explain what a sensitivity is compared to an allergy)
we were told that he "Has to" have the bread on his plate. It was the same with milk and nuts and even peanut butter, even if they had a doctors note. I asked,"What about kids who have anaphalxis to certain foods". I was told that it is the child's responsibility (even 5yos) to just not eat the offending food. I was very surprised at this, but it is the state policy. I don't know if it is that way in every state but considering the new "Common Core Standards" if it's not, it soon will be.

As far as family dynamics goes...Having him in our family, in our homeschool, has not always been easy, but I've seen what a broken school system (ours is very broken, not all are) can do to an Aspy boy and it isn't pretty. I used to worry about his effect on my other children. And there are negetive effects for sure...but I've begun to realize that having to deal with their brother has developed some interesting and desirable traits in my other three.
 

My oldest is more compassionate then he used to be when dealing with people who are different. My youngest son is more patient then his nature demands and has become more careful with what his body does as not to disturb his brothers sensitive ears. And my dd is more understanding of her brothers immaturity then she might have been otherwise.

 

We have modified our lives for my son (a school won't do that)... but we have also worked on his issues.
One example of this is; when he was 4 we avoided Walmart as if it were on fire, at 5 we brought him in for 5 min. and then sent him to wait in the car with dad, now he can handle all that sensory input for about an hour. Watch this video to better understand what he is dealing with in the sensory area. It may help you to better deal with the meltdowns and the outbursts to understand where he's coming from. We've had good results with removal of the offense and then slow reintroduction. He can often, not always, tolerate a lot more then he used to.

Removing the gluten removed about 75% of his behavior issues and doing VT for his Convergence has removed about 15% more. He will never be "normal" but he is so much more content in himself then he's ever been.

 

I wish you the best with whatever your family finally decides and hope that at least some of what I've penned here was helpful.

[Arcadia]

With your sons food issue I'd be really concerned about putting him in PS. In our local PS the school is required to give every child (even the sack lunch kids) a well balanced meal, which includes grains. When visiting a PS lunch line we were told that every child had to have bread.

That is not true here. The schools are all reasonably experienced with food allergies. The last thing the schools here want is a potential ER visit and/or a lawsuit.

 

The only kids who gets a free lunch in my school district are those who qualify and applied. Everyone else bring their own lunch or pay up through their lunch account. My neighborhood school has a room for peanut allergy children to eat in. The teachers are all trained to use epi-pens and they have an epi-pen for each child in their class that need one. My older's ex-classmate has peanut allergy. There were schoolmates who are gluten free.

When there is a school or class party at the public school, parents who are sponsoring food are careful to check labels of store bought food. Home cooked food for parties are discouraged for fear of contamination. I'm actually very careful when I cut fruits at home for parties because of possible peanut contamination.

Common core has nothing to do with how schools handle food allergies anyway. Schools have to give due care when a doctor has already certified that the child needs medical accommodations.

[briansmama]

Sorry that this post will be tougher than the previous, but I just saw the above.

 

If it is an extreme situation of intolerance to these foods, even having foods prepared in a facility that has things with gluten or casein may be enough to cause problems, just as a tiny bit of peanut can be for some people. And some problems may lurk in unsuspected places--like a bit of starch used to keep a wrapper from sticking to an otherwise gluten free item.

 

I think you are going to need to think of this as if it were life and death and be totally diligent, not "And I'm always the one pointing out the related diet/behavior the next day when ds is fighting too much with his brother and arguing with us over why he's right. Ugh." Or, accept that you and your husband are promoting the behavior and take responsibility for doing so. I think going to such restaurants with your son would be, for your son, a bit like taking an alcoholic into a bar and trying to get him to only drink water....it might work when he is over the addiction and sober for long enough, and mature enough to handle that, but for now it seems like asking for trouble. He's only a 4th grader. And you seem to expect him to have greater willpower than you have.

 

There is no point, IMO, in getting high cost evaluations when you already know there is something that is a trigger and you are not yet being diligent to stop it.

 

After you have done what you can to avoid the triggers faithfully and completely for around 6 months, if there is then still a problem, to me it would at that point make sense to go for further evaluations.

Yes, this was tough to read but also very helpful. You're absolutely right about his diet. I've even thought that it would be much easier to keep him on his diet 100 percent if it were a life and death situation, but because it's not, it's easy to let it slip when we eat out once per week. Thanks for the encouragement- this is more of an issue with how I handle ds dietary needs with my Dh, who understands and appreciates the gluten/casein free diet but doesn't fully believe the connection with his behavior. He thinks it makes ds more emotional and irritable, but often says that the dairy/gluten is an excuse, a crutch, for ds negative behavior (he only says this to me). Lately I've been sending him threads from this forum and the Gifted Homeschoolers Forum to read on his own and that seems to have helped a great deal. Hearing others' experiences have really helped him understand more about the absolute link between casein/gluten sensitivity and behavior. On my end though I do need to be adamant that ds do not go off his diet, which I feel I do SO much but apparently not enough.

 

Ds can't ever have the team snacks at the end of a sports game (that Dh helps coach), or the cake at a birthday part (or even the pizza/appetizers), or the smoothies/ice cream at the pool. Or the hot chocolate on the mountain with his team (which dh helps coach). Or the food at a play date. When we eat out we order him the GF burger/no cheese but then ds gets really upset that he can't even have French fries and Dh feels sorry for him. It's like this all of the time. So I give in on the French fries. Or the Caesar salad.

 

I guess I needed to hear that it's my job to keep ds on his diet, even it means out dinner will be miserable, or Dh will feel bad, etc. It's causing some stress here and it's so much easier on everyone to let it go, except for ds, who cannot be blamed for his reaction, and me the following days when he's unable to handle his emotions/behavior.

 

You're absolutely right- it doesn't make sense to pay thousands for an evaluation when I already know what helps him. The question now becomes why? Why can't he tolerate those foods and why does he react the way he does?

[briansmama]

Wow, Nitascool, thank you for taking the time to post all of that! I'm going back to re-read but just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate it.

[briansmama]

Nitascool, reading your post made me tear up! Thank you so much, and yes, what you wrote was extremely helpful. We will schedule an appt with the ND to see if the abnormal bacteria came back. I don't see evidence of ADHD at all. He is irritated by the nail chipping/teeth grinding, but he can sit for hours and read and be read to. He's been very attentive, verbal, and focused since he was really young. He also has excellent vision and physical coordination, so I don't see that either.

 

In reading The Explosive Child I really saw him in the author's description of an explosive child. It's written by a Prof of child psych at Harvard and he says these kids need to be taught how to handle their frustrations because they physiologically can't manage them on their own. He said most kids have about 5-6 unsolved problems that set them off, and this is definitely true in our case. He says the best way to teach these kids how to handle their frustrations is to problem solve collaboratively.

 

While he doesn't mention diet, and I do know for us that makes a big difference in my ds ability to be more flexible and handle frustrations without exploding, he does offer insight on how to problem solve those issues that are currently unsolved. So, I took ds out for tea yesterday and we had a long talk together about how I've noticed he is often frustrated with his brother and yells and screams at him, calls him names, etc., especially in the car and on the weekends. I also mentioned that I've noticed he gets very angry when his father chips his nails or I grind my teeth without realizing it. Ds opened up a lot and we did come up with some coping strategies. He mentioned some other frustrations with his brother that I didn't know about, and had tears in his eyes at this point. I offered headphones to block out offending noises in the car and in the homeschool room/table, and we reconfigured the car seating to make it so ds doesn't have to sit near his brother but also knows he's not to manage/control his brother's behavior either.

 

I also put ps on the table. After talking with ds about how much frustration he is dealing with every day from being around his little brother I realized that he may truly want a break. Having a 6 yr old brother around him all of the time is stressing him out. I'm not one who thinks kids should decide about their education, but I am not dealing with a typical kid. He said no, for the time being, but I told him that if he really doesn't want to be around a 6yr old most of the time anymore, he can go to school.

 

I told Dh my offer and he was very surprised but supportive. He thinks just knowing that's an option will help ds understand that we are working with him to help. We've even been looking into the local private schools, and while we really can't afford the $12,500 yr price tag, there is one that looks really good up the street, with 12-14 kids per class. So, it's an option.

 

Funny how others have mentioned military school experiences- ds also thrives in structure and the physical outlet with lots of other boys would be good for him. We don't have one here though and I wouldn't be willing to send him away. It was nice to hear though that Dh isn't off-base for suggesting it.

[briansmama]

School might be an option to give yourselves a break from one another, but it is NOT going to solve his behavioral problems. It just isn't. That's not what school is for, that's not what teachers and counselors focus on, and that's not how school is designed. It will.not.work. He sounds like my daughter, who was just in public school last year, 3rd grade, for the first time. She had been homeschooled K through 2nd grade, then I went through a nasty divorce and she had to go to school that year. Not only did it not help her one iota, it made things WORSE.

 

The reason people think school is going to work is only because they see that a family is doing something unusual and they think, "Aha! That's the problem!" Even people who aren't anti-homeschooling have a tendency to do that. It's just...it's silly, quite frankly. No offense or anything, but it is.

 

Additionally, I absolutely agree with the PP who stated that you shouldn't put much stock in those test scores. Standardized tests do NOT measure giftedness. Not at all.

 

I think your son seriously, seriously needs an evaluation by a neuropsychologist. You'll find some answers there. :) Oh, and make sure you find one who isn't anti-homeschooling. Ask them. They'll tell you the truth. This is the second time we're having our daughter evaluated (we're not completely satisfied with the depth of the first test) and the report is going to include recommendations for how to help our daughter both at school, should she ever need to go back, AND in our homeschool. That way, whatever we do with her, we will know how best to help her. Ask for that. :)

Snowfall, do you mind telling me if you has your dd evaluated by a neuropsych and what/if they discovered? I'm sorry if that's too personal and I understand if you don't feel comfortable sharing but were really trying to decide if our current plan is going to work or not. Our current plan is to work on collaborative problem solving to teach ds how to manage/reduce his frustrations that are causing him to explode, keep him very strictly off dairy/gluten, and do lab testing through our ND plus any treatment she recommends.

 

Additionally, I'm considering a child psych to help us work out the family dynamics/priorities as pp recommended because at this point, I'm starting to doubt how well I can keep an explosive 9 1/2yr old on a very strict diet long term when I haven't been able to do so already (mainly because of family/external pressures, not when we are at home). But I don't know if this is best to pursue first or if I should seek a neuro eval first, or at all, when I am not sure how much help it would be.

 

Also, does anyone have experiences getting these services/evaluations through their local ps? If so, how long did it take? Do they have to be enrolled and go to the school or can I request services outside of school enrollment?

 

Thank you!

[forty-two]

Ds can't ever have the team snacks at the end of a sports game (that Dh helps coach), or the cake at a birthday part (or even the pizza/appetizers), or the smoothies/ice cream at the pool. Or the hot chocolate on the mountain with his team (which dh helps coach). Or the food at a play date. When we eat out we order him the GF burger/no cheese but then ds gets really upset that he can't even have French fries and Dh feels sorry for him. It's like this all of the time. So I give in on the French fries. Or the Caesar salad.

 

I guess I needed to hear that it's my job to keep ds on his diet, even it means out dinner will be miserable, or Dh will feel bad, etc. It's causing some stress here and it's so much easier on everyone to let it go, except for ds, who cannot be blamed for his reaction, and me the following days when he's unable to handle his emotions/behavior.

My 4yo is gluten free, and it was hard to go from almost-always-gf to always-gf - it definitely required more planning ahead, and committing to only going out to eat at places where there was food of comparable yumminess for dd4 to eat. I don't expect her to be contented with just a burger while everyone else gets a burger and fries - either I find a safe substitution that is just as good *to her* or no one gets fries. If its not worth going out just for safe food, then we just don't go there with dd4.

 

For events with food, I keep some gf treats in the house and always bring them any time we go to something that might possibly involve food treats. If I mess up and don't have anything for dd4, I promise her a treat when we get home, and if it bothers her to see us eating something she can't have, I don't eat it.

 

I don't think making dinner miserable over the diet is the way to go, myself. I work very hard to make staying gf as painless as possible for dd4, which for us means never eating anything as a family unless we have an equivalent and equally yummy safe treat to give to dd4, and pretty much always bring gf treats to any party/gathering/event we go to.

 

I agree with your dh that its not fair to eat yummy food in front of your ds and refuse to let him have any - I just disagree that the only alternate is to let him cheat :grouphug:.

 

Good luck :).

[briansmama]

Thanks Forty-two. I also agree that we wouldn't eat foods ds can't have in front of him, and we don't. But he knows that French fries are served at our favorite restaurants and he will want them. I found it so much easier to keep him GF/CF when he was younger but now it's a mix of wanting what his peers can have, more independence from us, and wanting to order what he'd like when we go out, which has been more frequent this year due to older children.

 

I did hear from my neighbor that ds said "no thank you" to any food offered to him while over there playing with friends today. She offered him rice cakes with almond butter, which he can definitely have (her Dh is GF/CF). So he's doing his best it seems. I think pp is right- the more diligent we are the more serious he will be when we are not there. I've made a huge deal this past week about getting rid of the kefir and eliminating dairy completely.

[Eagle]

Ds can't ever have the team snacks at the end of a sports game (that Dh helps coach), or the cake at a birthday part (or even the pizza/appetizers), or the smoothies/ice cream at the pool. Or the hot chocolate on the mountain with his team (which dh helps coach). Or the food at a play date. When we eat out we order him the GF burger/no cheese but then ds gets really upset that he can't even have French fries and Dh feels sorry for him. It's like this all of the time. So I give in on the French fries. Or the Caesar salad.

 

I can see you feel really sorry for your ds and you want to make up for it by letting him have food he shouldn't. I want to give you a different perspective. My ds has a life-threatening allergy to wheat and egg (used to be dairy and soy too but those are no longer life-threatening). He can't attend the sports team because of all the snacks. He has never been to a birthday party. Or gone out for hot chocolate. Or had play dates at anyone else' house. Or been to a restaurant. He also cannot attend school.

 

I know there are many who feel sorry for my son because they feel he misses out on so much due to his extreme allergies. Has it changed our lifestyle? Definitely. But we have changed so he sees the things that he CAN do and is not overly exposed to the negatives and "cannots". We plan outings at places that are food-free. We meet with friends at times that do not involve food. We don't have food in the house that he cannot have.

 

Now obviously you don't need to be as extreme since you are not dealing with an allergy. But maybe there are some adjustments you can make as a family that can help your ds not feel like he is always missing out.

[Pen]

Yes, this was tough to read but also very helpful. You're absolutely right about his diet. I've even thought that it would be much easier to keep him on his diet 100 percent if it were a life and death situation, but because it's not, it's easy to let it slip when we eat out once per week. Thanks for the encouragement- this is more of an issue with how I handle ds dietary needs with my Dh, who understands and appreciates the gluten/casein free diet but doesn't fully believe the connection with his behavior. He thinks it makes ds more emotional and irritable, but often says that the dairy/gluten is an excuse, a crutch, for ds negative behavior (he only says this to me). Lately I've been sending him threads from this forum and the Gifted Homeschoolers Forum to read on his own and that seems to have helped a great deal. Hearing others' experiences have really helped him understand more about the absolute link between casein/gluten sensitivity and behavior. On my end though I do need to be adamant that ds do not go off his diet, which I feel I do SO much but apparently not enough.

 

Ds can't ever have the team snacks at the end of a sports game (that Dh helps coach), or the cake at a birthday part (or even the pizza/appetizers), or the smoothies/ice cream at the pool. Or the hot chocolate on the mountain with his team (which dh helps coach). Or the food at a play date. When we eat out we order him the GF burger/no cheese but then ds gets really upset that he can't even have French fries and Dh feels sorry for him. It's like this all of the time. So I give in on the French fries. Or the Caesar salad.

 

I guess I needed to hear that it's my job to keep ds on his diet, even it means out dinner will be miserable, or Dh will feel bad, etc. It's causing some stress here and it's so much easier on everyone to let it go, except for ds, who cannot be blamed for his reaction, and me the following days when he's unable to handle his emotions/behavior.

 

You're absolutely right- it doesn't make sense to pay thousands for an evaluation when I already know what helps him. The question now becomes why? Why can't he tolerate those foods and why does he react the way he does?

 

 

I don't know why, but want to share some thoughts that may be relevant to it.

 

First, I know people who cannot tolerate certain grains unless they are organic, and I have heard that some of the increasing food sensitivity in recent times may come from a general overload of toxins of all sorts not only in our food, but otherwise in our environments, and also for some people may come from genetically modified organism (GMO) foods.   This too sounds like a political diatribe, for which I apologize, but I am trying to suggest some directions that might be relevant to your question of "why".  The DVD film called something like Genetic Roulette, I believe has some information that may be relevant to the GMO aspects.  The film The Corporation (though not its main topic) has some parts relevant to issues with milk and other foods related to toxins in general and things like BGh in particular.   There is lactose intolerance as well as casein intolerance, and there is also a possible  milk protein issue.   The book The Devil in the Milk  discusses the A1 versus A2 milk.  Similar to the milk protein issue, there are also possibilities that the grains that people once had are more simple than the modern grains are--some people seem to be able to tolerate a simpler wheat type grain called Emer though not the usual varieties, for example.

 

 I also wanted to share with you that friends who had one child with suspected C and G sensitivity, had the whole family go off both (mainly because it was too physically hard to cook separate items and too emotionally hard to have the one ds treated very differently with GF and CF)--it turned out that all 4 members of the family ended up feeling way better from things they had not realized were problems prior to being off the C and G for some weeks--the mom also told me that the first few weeks when everyone was reacting to being off, however, was and awful awful time, especially with her DH who also turned out to be emotionally affected by C or G.   She said she had horrible headaches, the toddler was cranky, the husband and son were both angry.    But then, past that point, they all felt far better than they had, and the whole family is staying GF.    But not CF since they found they could tolerate raw milk if it was whichever is not currently the common one as between A1 and A2.

 

Another possibility could come from leaky gut issues as someone else mentioned--though that still leaves a why behind that.

 

 

You actually have a help in DH being a coach because you might be able to have the snacks for all be something that your ds can have.  I'm not sure what, but when I did sports the main snack was always oranges.  When I have had to provide a snack for ds and other lately that tends to fit many intolerances and other needs, I have been finding that fruit leathers work well too,   Popcorn sometimes works, but he has a friend who cannot eat corn.

 

We have to be all organic in our foods (and have to avoid certain specific ingredients also) and for that reason have the problem of not being able to participate in birthday cakes, and group snacks of all sorts.  It is definitely something to deal with.  But it is possible to do so.  There are a lot of kids with such problems--for a while we were even in a food allergies park play group--so there were always a variety of things brought to meet the needs of the various members.  And never anything brought that might be deadly to anyone.  One of the moms whose daughter can't have C, G, soy or peanuts, started it.  There were a couple of kids in it that had over a dozen things they could go into shock from.

 

 

Try to think up what things you can all eat without dinner being miserable.  Maybe wonderful fruits and salads, and if you are not vegetarian, perhaps a great special meat dish, I like: burgers on portobello mushrooms instead of on buns, Thai shrimp soup, Moroccan stew which is spicy and has various types of potatoes for the starches is filling and wonderful, roasted chicken and vegetables, miso soup with all sorts of vegetables and meats is a favorite and was tonight's dinner.  Lasagna made with sliced squash in place of the noodles is also a favorite here.  Milk free sherbets or ices can make good desserts if it is summer where you are.  Chocolate melt away merengue cookies are both CF and GF (if chocolate and egg are not a problem).

 

I found trying to do the sort of cooking and baking where a lot of ingredients are used to simulate wheat, for example, is just too hard, but have found that there is a lot that can be done with foods that work well as they are for various dishes, casseroles and so on.

[briansmama]

I can see you feel really sorry for your ds and you want to make up for it by letting him have food he shouldn't. I want to give you a different perspective. My ds has a life-threatening allergy to wheat and egg (used to be dairy and soy too but those are no longer life-threatening). He can't attend the sports team because of all the snacks. He has never been to a birthday party. Or gone out for hot chocolate. Or had play dates at anyone else' house. Or been to a restaurant. He also cannot attend school.

 

I know there are many who feel sorry for my son because they feel he misses out on so much due to his extreme allergies. Has it changed our lifestyle? Definitely. But we have changed so he sees the things that he CAN do and is not overly exposed to the negatives and "cannots". We plan outings at places that are food-free. We meet with friends at times that do not involve food. We don't have food in the house that he cannot have.

 

Now obviously you don't need to be as extreme since you are not dealing with an allergy. But maybe there are some adjustments you can make as a family that can help your ds not feel like he is always missing out.

Thank you for this perspective. I definitely agree that you deal with the hand you're dealt and ds behavior and lack of empathy after exposure to gluten/dairy upset me so much that I don't feel sorry for him that he can't have those things, but Dh really does. Life is more peaceful for him when he doesn't eat those things. Dh and I had another long talk about it last night and he agreed we will only choose to eat in places where he can have GF/CF options (mainly Mexican and Asian).

 

Yes, totally worth it.

[briansmama]

Pen, I just read your post! I had to laugh because I always being fruit leathers when it's our turn to bring the team snack :) Those really are so great. Popcorn is such a good idea! The kids would love that. I wish oranges were usually offered. Instead it's chocolate milk and Churros, donuts, Capri suns and granola bars, etc.

 

I've baked/frozen/created GF/CF treats, breads, ice cream, dinners, lunches, breakfasts to a T. It is the social aspect that makes it a challenge, but we are going to treat it like ds has a full blown allergy and just cannot do it.

 

The ND we saw previously (we've since moved) told me that ds could have the occasional gluten/casein snack, treat, dinner, at an event or party and take a digestive enzyme with DPP to help keep him from reacting. So Dh and I have been going that route, but it just doesn't really help.