Has your student used ratemyprofessors?

[Hunter's Moon]

I went to ratemyprofessors.com and scared myself silly about the Chemistry class. There are only 2 sections left (I had to wait to finish up my online classes at the end of June to send my college transcript to the CC, so I haven't registered yet). The two options do not seem popular on that site, at all. 

 

I am now officially scared. 

 

I am not the best at math and science, but I thoroughly enjoy the challenge of both, and it seem both of these classes will be..... challenging, to say the least. 

 

Any experiences with that site and how accurate it seemed? I am sure more disgruntled students use it than happy. 

[regentrude]

As a professor, I can tell you that the site is not a good basis for class choices at all.

I have taught about 3,000 students over the past decade, and I have about 30 ratings on rmp over the entire time span. So, only about 1% of the students leave a rating, which is not a representative sample.

The ratings fall into two categories: students who really loved me, and students who failed the class and hated me.

 

you will get a more acurate picture asking previous students.

[Kakids]

I agree it's not an accurate representation of how you may fair in a class.  I have taken classes from professors who have terrible ratings where I end up learning a lot and really liking the professor, to professors rated highly (some based on looks) who require little work and cancel class frequently making the class an easy grade.  Don't worry too much, I find the site more interesting than informational.

[Dana]

Strongly agree with regentrude.

[Matryoshka]

I think that they should make the respondents answer questions about what their ideal professor/course is like - easy or challenging.

 

I signed up for an Astronomy class in college based on rave reviews of the teacher on a student-ratings site.  Turns out everyone loved him because he was easy and the course was pretty much devoid of content.  I literally slept through it and made and A, but I felt cheated because I had actually wanted to learn about Astronomy...

[Peach]

I've seen reviews run as regentrude said, with rarely a middle ground. I've been checking my upcoming professors there and a thought occurred to me, that may help you too. I'd bet that most of the reviews come from traditional age students, so if your chem professor is rated as hard, you may not find him to be as bad as he sounds from the reviews. Time and experience make a world of difference. I had a professor in college at 19 that I thought was awful and scary. If I had him now, I doubt that would be the case. You'll be fine! :)

[flyingiguana]

We haven't found ratemyprofessor to be at all useful. A lot of the comments seem a bit clueless.

 

I suspect a lot of it is a way for poor students to rant about how it wasn't their fault they did so bad.

 

For my daughter, when she's ended up with professors with consistently good reviews, the professors themselves have been universally bad -- and vice versa. I think she would actively seek out professors with bad reviews, if she ever had a choice.

[creekland]

I guess we're the odd ones here.  We do get useful info from RMP, but not due to overall scores, we look at the actual comments and filter according to our "tastes."  We tend to look for key words or phrases and give them our own positive or negative spin.  So far, everything has been accurate for what we expected.  My guys also go back and rate their professors so others can get a feel for them. 

 

Once at college (after freshman fall semester) they tend to ask other students about their experiences and/or some colleges have their own rating systems too.

[Brigid in NC]

I guess we're the odd ones here.  We do get useful info from RMP, but not due to overall scores, we look at the actual comments and filter according to our "tastes."  We tend to look for key words or phrases and give them our own positive or negative spin.  So far, everything has been accurate for what we expected.

:iagree:

My guys found Rate My Professor to be helpful for their CC classes--and they now (instead) look at the grade distributions that their college publishes to compare profs (there are some tremendous variations in parallel classes). 

 

We would always talk about the comments and filter out the responses where it was clear that the students weren't ready/able to do the work.  But there were often helpful nuggets that gave a relatively accurate idea of the instructors' personalities/expectations and the rigor of the courses.  Just our experience. :001_rolleyes:

 

you will get a more acurate picture asking previous students.

:iagree:

[Hunter's Moon]

I figured that would be the case.

 

I do not think my CC publishes grades by professor, though that would definitely be interesting.

[AngieW in Texas]

My girls have generally found ratemyprofessors to be helpful.

 

My 17yo got one absolutely horrible psychology teacher who had stellar ratings. The problem was that the comments didn't make clear why they were rating her so highly.  The class was an easy A. Pretty much, they sat in class and copied powerpoints while the teacher talked about how incredibly gifted she was, how she had cured many kids of autism, ADD, and homosexuality, her extensive drug use in college, and how incredibly gifted she was (yes, I listed this twice on purpose). She also talked a lot about how she didn't care if they came to class drunk or high.

 

Aside from that one teacher, my kids have found the ratings quite helpful, but only when they read through all the comments. Often the comments that student make about why they don't like the teacher are reasons for my kids to seek out that teacher.  They both prefer essay/short answer tests over scantron and it seems that the majority prefer scantron.

[ThisIsTheDay]

We've used it, really for a lack of almost anything else to get direction.

 

I was nervous when my 12th grader first signed up for CC classes.  I PORED over every comment I could find, narrowing down teachers and times--for the class that gave options. At the last minute, that teacher was replaced by a new instructor.  She turned out to be amazing, even writing dd's letters of recommendation for college apps.  We never would have found her if we'd looked at ratemyprofessors.  She took another class where there was just one prof choice, so the reviews were irrelevant.

 

For the profs I know personally (family and friends), I can easily see how the reviews match up with their personalities.

 

When dd signed up for her univ. classes recently, we used the website as a guideline.  It's easy enough to see disgruntled students, and as other posters said, just because a comment is negative, that doesn't mean it's a negative for my kid.  If lots of great comments indicate an easy class, that's not always a bad thing either.  It's great to have some sort of balance.

[SkateLeft]

I stopped looking at RMP, when I found my dad on there, and he had a chili pepper "hotness" rating. That's just... disturbing. :huh:

 

Over the last couple of years, my daughter has looked up the ratings for her CC instructors, but she took them with a grain of salt. The comments tend to be more helpful than the numbers. Some of her favorite instructors over the last two years had terrible ratings, mainly because they were tough and had high expectations, which doesn't always make them popular in a community college. If people say that a professor is difficult or too challenging, she usually took that as a good sign. If most of the students complain that a professor is very disorganized, then my daughter learned to steer clear.

 

It's definitely much more useful to talk to other students though.

 

 

[AngieW in Texas]

My kids have definitely learned to steer clear of the teachers who have lots of complaints about being unorganized. They are generally not looking for the "easy" teacher unless it's a check off the box class.

[Wildcat]

My kids have definitely learned to steer clear of the teachers who have lots of complaints about being unorganized. They are generally not looking for the "easy" teacher unless it's a check off the box class.

 

This is what I taught ds to do. He reads the comments for 'key words'. For him, hard, difficult, and fair mean "take this prof", and disorganized, easy A, funny, hot, etc. mean "stay away".  There have been several reviews of  profs that state 'doesn't understand the material', or 'strays from topic and rambles about current events' (that was a math class!), so he stayed away from them, too. For ds, the one word that will make him want the prof is FAIR.

 

Ds has had several 'unknowns', though, with zero reviews and has been disappointed each time. To him, the unknown and the disorganized/hot reviews are equally bad. He hates it when a prof has no reviews.

[Wildcat]

I stopped looking at RMP, when I found my dad on there, and he had a chili pepper "hotness" rating. That's just... disturbing. :huh:

 

Over the last couple of years, my daughter has looked up the ratings for her CC instructors, but she took them with a grain of salt. The comments tend to be more helpful than the numbers. Some of her favorite instructors over the last two years had terrible ratings, mainly because they were tough and had high expectations, which doesn't always make them popular in a community college. If people say that a professor is difficult or too challenging, she usually took that as a good sign. If most of the students complain that a professor is very disorganized, then my daughter learned to steer clear.

 

It's definitely much more useful to talk to other students though.

 

Finding your dad's hotness rating must have been utterly creepy!

 

It would be fantastic to be able to talk to other students (ds started keeping a list of profs for his uni as he has heard about good/bad profs from alumni), but for our cc, he didn't even say "hi" to other students, so finding them to ask about a prof would be more difficult than finding a snowball in Florida. Our cc doesn't post anything online, so looking there wasn't an option. He was lucky in that RMP worked for him as long at there were ratings on profs.

 

I agree that the numbers on RMP are useless. A high number usually meant "easy A" or "gives study sheets for tests with all the answers".  That was *not* what ds was looking for in a prof!  One prof had a high number (like 9.9), and when reading the comments, we learned it was because he told lots of jokes (and did the Moonwallk!) and students thought he should be a stand up comedian!  Ds didn't see how that would help him learn Biology! Not one of the comments were about his *teaching*, so ds steered clear.

[JennyD]

I don't know much about RMP but every university I have either attended or taught at has had some kind of internal course evaluation system, with at least some of the results made publicly available to the general student body.  At the place where I currently teach, we are supposed to have the students fill out the forms during one of the last couple of classes (I leave the room) to get around the self-selection problem.  I believe that currently enrolled students can then log in to see these reviews in their entirety, as well as the grade distributions for each class.    Creekland, surely Rochester must have a system like that too, no?  

 

FWIW, I recently read that studies of (internal) student course evaluations have consistently found that no matter what the particular questions asked, the results correspond with the answers to the same two questions: (1) Is this class organized?; and (2) Does the professor seem like a nice person?

 

 

[creekland]

I stopped looking at RMP, when I found my dad on there, and he had a chili pepper "hotness" rating. That's just... disturbing. :huh:

 

Over the last couple of years, my daughter has looked up the ratings for her CC instructors, but she took them with a grain of salt. The comments tend to be more helpful than the numbers. Some of her favorite instructors over the last two years had terrible ratings, mainly because they were tough and had high expectations, which doesn't always make them popular in a community college. If people say that a professor is difficult or too challenging, she usually took that as a good sign. If most of the students complain that a professor is very disorganized, then my daughter learned to steer clear.

 

It's definitely much more useful to talk to other students though.

We totally ignore the hotness rating.  I've never asked my guys how they dealt with it when they leave posts.  My guys love "challenging" profs... and definitely dislike the "disorganized" ones too.

 

This is what I taught ds to do. He reads the comments for 'key words'. For him, hard, difficult, and fair mean "take this prof", and disorganized, easy A, funny, hot, etc. mean "stay away".  There have been several reviews of  profs that state 'doesn't understand the material', or 'strays from topic and rambles about current events' (that was a math class!), so he stayed away from them, too. For ds, the one word that will make him want the prof is FAIR.

 

Ds has had several 'unknowns', though, with zero reviews and has been disappointed each time. To him, the unknown and the disorganized/hot reviews are equally bad. He hates it when a prof has no reviews.

:iagree:   Your key words are remarkably similar to ours - and we also really dislike it when there are no ratings. 

[Lori D.]

Actually, we have used Rate My Professors, and do find it helpful -- BUT... it is only helpful if you are good at "reading between the lines". We totally disregard the number ratings and just read the comments looking for clues. If the professor has a lot of feedback and it is all either "really like" or "really hate", then it's a good bet it is a professor who will require a lot, but one from whom you will also learn a lot. Or, if all the comments are things like: "easy A", "just have to show up", "hardly any work outside of class" ... then it will probably be a waste of time as far as really learning anything. You can also sift through answers and get a rough idea of how the teacher grades or how much work will be required.

 

Another tip: you can also do a google search for that class and professor and see if there is a syllabus floating around in cyber space that will give you a feel for what the class will be like.

 

Of course, sitting in on a few classes in advance is ideal, because then you can really see if you will be able to learn from that instructor. And hearing from other students whose judgement you trust would be next best (older DS found a class and instructor he loved this way, and went on to take 2 more classes from this instructor as a result).

 

But if those options are not available to you, then Rate My Professors can sometimes be a little better than blindly choosing a section. :) BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

[Melissa B]

We've found it very helpful for specific information.  My dd vetoed a summer entomology class after reading that a specific professor would require her to catch and mount 30 unique insects.  She worried that that might be too much for a six week class (as many of those rating the class had found it very difficult.) She also chose one of her current classes based on the facts that it had many, many positive reviews about the professor loving plants in general and always giving out many free plants during the class. She now has a budding garden and it is her favorite DE class yet.  

 

However, we take other information with a grain (or more) of salt.  Things such as hard tests, mandatory attendance, boring lectures, etc. are too subjective to determine the truth from a handful of comments.  Most colleges have very easy drop/add for the first week while students get a feel for the professors and classes.  Dd has found meeting and talking to the professors during the first week and looking over the course syllabus to be the best way to determine a good fit.  She has dropped a class and added another after deciding on the first day that the class/professor would not be a good fit.  And so far she has been very happy with all of her classes.

[MIch elle]

We've found RMP to be very helpful. 

[Hunter's Moon]

I have been comparing the two professors, and I think, based on the comments, I figured out which one I prefer. Reading between the lines, it seems the students who actually give the class effort have no trouble getting help from him. I also saw "fair," "challenging," and "states exactly what he wants done." It seems a lot of the responsibility is on the student in this course. 

 

I have noticed a trend. It seems a lot of the bad reviews for many professors is from students who expect the *lecture* to be the sole source of information. One comment was, "he expects you to know the material prior to coming to class". I cannot imagine reading the chapter for the week, plus hearing the lecture, and feeling unprepared. Overwhelmed, maybe, if the information is difficult to grasp, but with the office hours of the professor (if he is helpful) and the tutoring my school offers, I do not think a lot of these professors are as "impossible" as many disgruntled students make them out to be. 

 

Of course, there will be horrid professors. 

[Hunter's Moon]

This comment I just found for a Sociology professor rating is a great example of my last post: 

 

 

 

The problem is that she talks all class about a topic that involves the chapter we are on, but it won't be on the test. She spent about 4 days on sexism and everything she said had little to do with the test. Expect to read the chapters yourself.

 

Do students *really* expect not to need to read the book? That is an odd idea. 

 

[Lori D.]

Do students *really* expect not to need to read the book? That is an odd idea. 

 

 

Well, yes and no. Sometimes those comments indicate a student clueless about the college learning process. BUT...

 

Our DSs have each had a few classes in which the textbook required for the class was absolutely never opened -- no assigned or suggested readings, no quizzes on the material, no material pulled from the book or expanded on in the lectures. It was as if the instructor was *required* to list a required textbook and so he/she selected a book at random, but then completely did their own thing for lectures, papers, and quizzes/tests. So, sometimes a book is optional or supplemental -- but not all instructors tell students that.

[regentrude]

I have noticed a trend. It seems a lot of the bad reviews for many professors is from students who expect the *lecture* to be the sole source of information. One comment was, "he expects you to know the material prior to coming to class".

Yes. Some of the bad comments I got complained that I expected the students to read the textbook (mind you, I break it down into small chunks, each pertinent to one lecture, and they receive a detailed schedule to make it easy). And, oh horror, I might give a pop quiz over an obvious aspect of the reading.

Not even over something sneaky, but rather a main concept, or THE main statement that constitutes the topic they were supposed to read about. I dare ask,the day for which had been assigned to read several sections about the first law of thermodynmics: which of the following (completely different- so no nitpicking) statements is the first law of thermodynamics? Fifty percent of the class will not know.

 

 

Comments like "xy material was not on the test" are also typical; a significant number of students does not care about learningthe material, but only about getting a good grade. They consider a discussion of material that is not tested "worthless".

 

So, none of those comments surprise me, I have seen them frequently.

[Hunter's Moon]

Well, yes and no. Sometimes those comments indicate a student clueless about the college learning process. BUT...

 

Our DSs have each had a few classes in which the textbook required for the class was absolutely never opened -- no assigned or suggested readings, no quizzes on the material, no material pulled from the book or expanded on in the lectures. It was as if the instructor was *required* to list a required textbook and so he/she selected a book at random, but then completely did their own thing for lectures, papers, and quizzes/tests. So, sometimes a book is optional or supplemental -- but not all instructors tell students that.

 

I have had classes where the book was not utilized either. But, in those classes, the lectures *were* enough for me to pass the quizzes/tests. If a student is surprised by the first quiz/test when they see that there is material in there that was not lectured on, they should consider using the textbook. I was able to pass my Psychology class without using the book, but for the first few weeks before the first quiz, I read the text, not knowing what to expect. Professors can say one thing (the book won't be used), and then lo and behold, things not in the lectures are on the quizzes/tests. 

[Vida Winter]

Agreeing with "reading between the lines" to figure out the true rating. For her first semester, dd couldn't really use any of the info because she had to take what was available. By her mid June orientation, many classes had filled.

I also agree with "reading between the lines", but RMP can also be used to rate the students and the institution itself, here's a great link about this, though the language is a bit salty:  http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~wcd/rateprof.html

[Dana]

I also agree with "reading between the lines", but RMP can also be used to rate the students and the institution itself, here's a great link about this, though the language is a bit salty:  http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~wcd/rateprof.html

 

That is neat!

[Miss Marple]

My boys use it all the time for their local concurrent courses.  We have found the ratings to be reasonable, but we've also learned to read between the lines.  You can tell a disgruntled student from one giving constructive feedback.  When they complain about the grade they received and the post is full of misspelled words and poor grammar, it indicates to me that the student probably didn't work very hard.  And we also rely on word of mouth as well.  My boys have never contributed to ratemyprofessor.com, though.

[flyingiguana]

We've found it very helpful for specific information.  My dd vetoed a summer entomology class after reading that a specific professor would require her to catch and mount 30 unique insects.  She worried that that might be too much for a six week class (as many of those rating the class had found it very difficult.)

 

That actually wouldn't be hard at all.  There are a lot of insects in the world.

 

I'm pretty sure I could catch those in a day.  In our backyard.

 

Once again, I think this is probably a case of students who just didn't want to to do any work. 

 

The professor, being an entomologist, would have recognized that this wasn't all that difficult.  Although he/she probably would have enjoyed showing the students how easy it was.  Biology professors are always interested in showing their students exactly how much diversity is all around them.  Even though many students come into the class a bit clueless about this.

[Peach]

Re: students not reading the books, I dropped in to see my advisor last week and we were talking about this. She loaned me a book that she used to use for an upcoming class  that is a great read, but she commented that while she made extensive use of it and had a detailed list of assigned readings on the syllabus, she found that many freshmen wouldn't read the book. When I was in college in the 80's, I had a professor that cured his freshmen of that quick. Things in the book would show up on tests, even if they were not covered in lectures. After the first test and some of them complaining, he reminded them that the reading assignment was on the syllabus and it was their responsibility to keep up with the work, not his responsibility to spoon feed them. 

[creekland]

she found that many freshmen wouldn't read the book. When I was in college in the 80's, I had a professor that cured his freshmen of that quick. Things in the book would show up on tests, even if they were not covered in lectures. After the first test and some of them complaining, he reminded them that the reading assignment was on the syllabus and it was their responsibility to keep up with the work, not his responsibility to spoon feed them. 

 

And then there's the professor who had a book on the syllabus, never mentioned it at all during the bulk of the class and some kids sold the book before the last class... only to be reminded on the last day of class that the book was indeed part of the class and would be tested on the final - he just expected them to be diligent about it and have kept up on it the whole time.  Many students rushed back to the bookstore to buy the book back and spent the next couple of nights prior to the final reading what they should have been reading all along... ;)

 

I had several professors who had a book they expected the class to read and know for foundational stuff - then they spent their time discussing things not in the books (too new for books). Any of it was fair game for tests. This happened in both Physics and Psychology (my two majors) as well as some core classes.  For those, certain readings were assigned as we went along, but they were seldom discussed in class.  Students could go to office hours if they needed things explained more.  I really preferred those classes to those that just rehashed book stuff.

 

But I digress... 

[Laura in CA]

I keep forgetting to tease my brother about his "hotness" rating ... :)

 

We have found RMP to be invaluable. Agreeing with the advice upthread  (all of it, basically, both positive and negative). I've just skimmed the replies, but yes, the evaluations are biased, and represent a small subset of students, and come predominantly from those students who have a strong opinion (one way or the other) ... As with anything in life, one needs to consider the source. And yes, ideally one would talk to students in person, but that's not always possible (dual enrollment, incoming freshman, limited number of acquaintances who've taken that particular class, etc.). And of course in person you'd consider the source -- is So-and-So a slacker, genius, grade-grubber, etc.? You just have to tease it out of the comments on RMP ...

 

For example, note the course for which the comments are being given -- if it's a remedial course, course for non-majors, large introductory "weeder" course, we assume many of the students will not be as serious and studious as those in a higher-level course. Also, comments such as --- oh, I'll just cut and paste; it'll be easier to show rather than tell.

 

My son's favorite teacher at the CC, for post-calculus math, who is AWESOME, has a ton of low ratings on RMP -- in fact, he often reads new comments aloud to his current classes, as he finds them amusing. Here are some of the whines:

 

 

Algebra: I dont know how anyone could ever say he is a good teacher or NICE! are you kidding me? he is honestly the biggest jerk of a teacher i have ever had! He makes rude remarks and gets pissy if you whisper one measly word! all i can say is if you see this guys name on your schedule...RUN FOR THE HILLS. He will make you miserable! ugly & baldin, not hot

 

[reading between the lines: this kid wasn't paying attention in class :)

My son really appreciated the way this teacher would simply eject disruptive students -- it made for a great learning environment for the students who wanted to be there]

 

Multivariable calc: He's a brutal teacher in a really bad way. He does not lecture well at all, and his exams are ridiculous. He's a really cool and funny guy, but his class is not worth it. He over complicates things in a way that gives unnecessary stress and results in horrible grades. I know others who are extremely skilled in math who failed his class. Be warned.

 

Linear Algebra: As everybody says, he is unfair. He picks things he may have mentioned in about 5 seconds (not an exaggeration) and uses them as exam questions. 

 

[as someone says upthread -- this is undoubtedly a student who wanted his hand held !]

 

 

vs.:

 

 

Trig: Great Teacher- Passionate, Funny, VERY Helpful, & Fairly Clear, but he makes the class more difficult than what it should be. He prides himself as one of the most difficult math teachers at College Y & it's true! He assigns a ton of HW & his quizzes/exams are killer! Not an easy A, but you will learn so much.

 

[yes, he was proud of the fact that most of the students dropped his class midway through ... but to us this showed high standards. Note: we are talking about a mediocre/OK CC, here ... many of the students don't expect to work hard AT ALL ...]

 

Calc: Mr X expects you to work and be able to transfer to a university. He's not going to let you leave his class with a subpar understanding. His expectations match universities'. He respects his students to prepare them well and gives the resources needed to do it. All of the answers are there, you just need determination and perseverance to find them.

 

Precalc: I had him a few semesters ago while I was taking 18 units. I'm an Art major, and I still got an A. Take notes, pay attention, and do the problems in the book. I did every problem in the book multiple times between classes. You get what you put into it. Also he's a cool guy and I missed him when I eventually went into Calc.

 

Stats: If you are the type of student that puts in minimal effort and studies only at exam time, you won't do well in any of his classes. Make sure to take really good notes, because some of what he tests on isn't in the book. Go to his office hours! He truly wants everyone to pass his classes, but it all depends on your commitment to learn and to study.

 

Precalc: Mr X has to be one of the hardest professors on campus, but you learn so much from him. Tons of homework, very difficult at times Very helpful one on one, and he's very entertaining. His exams are killer, and his in class quizes can be pretty tricky. Talk to him, ask him questions, show him you actually care about your education.

 

 

Anyway, my point is that just looking at the rating -- low 3s for overall quality & everything except easiness, 1 for easiness -- is very misleading. 

 

About exams being "tricky" ... my 'third son' at UCSC was scared to take linear algebra from a professor described on RMP as having "tricky" exams. I tried to persuade him that many students cry "tricky!" when in fact they haven't done the reading/homework, or don't understand the material well. But he was too spooked by that ... 

 

For my son about to leave for college in 3.5 weeks, it is very reassuring to both him and me that his chemistry professor -- for a class of 300-400 students -- has uniformly positive ratings on RMP, with many students calling him "the best professor at the university" :) ... and no, they don't say he's an "easy A," but that he "really wants you to learn," "is always willing to help you understand," etc.

 

 

Note to self: I should make sure my boys post comments on RMP for classes they've had/will have ... to help the ratings be more truly representative & accurate ...

[Laura in CA]

 

I had several professors who had a book they expected the class to read and know for foundational stuff - then they spent their time discussing things not in the books (too new for books). Any of it was fair game for tests. This happened in both Physics and Psychology (my two majors) as well as some core classes.  For those, certain readings were assigned as we went along, but they were seldom discussed in class.  Students could go to office hours if they needed things explained more.  I really preferred those classes to those that just rehashed book stuff.

 

But I digress... 

 

Oh, but digressions are fun ! :D

 

My brother taught at an Ivy League college for 15 years. He said it was almost scary -- no matter how much reading he assigned, the kids always came to class prepared  (unlike when he taught at a large state uni). No hand-holding necessary (taking class time for quizzes on the assigned reading, for example). Knowing they were all on the same page, he was free to hold forth during his actual lecture on advanced concepts, personal anecdotes, current events (he teaches poli sci/gov/IR), etc. Much more interesting & valuable for everyone involved ...