3 Years Foreign Language?

[goldberry]

DD is starting 10th this year.  She is pretty sure she is going to community college, but you never know, so I looked up some Colorade state college requirements.  They use MAPS (Minimum Academic Preparedness Standards).  They all require THREE years of foreign language!

 

I must be really out of it.  I thought 2 years was the norm.  Is three years required in most areas?

[Julie Smith]

I live in Ontario Canada. But I think in my area you have to have 3 years of French in highschool to graduate. 

[FreckledFace]

Our local state university only requires 1-2 years for incoming freshman. 

 

[8filltheheart]

DD is starting 10th this year.  She is pretty sure she is going to community college, but you never know, so I looked up some Colorade state college requirements.  They use MAPS (Minimum Academic Preparedness Standards).  They all require THREE years of foreign language!

 

I must be really out of it.  I thought 2 years was the norm.  Is three years required in most areas?

 

One tip I can share is to pay attention to what good local private or regional private schools are doing.   They tend to pick up the trends of major universities before local school systems.   Only our oldest did only 2 yrs of foreign language.   I realized when our oldest was in 10th or 11th grade that the local private schools were starting to require 3 yrs of a single foreign language.   I spoke to one's guidance office and asked why and was told it was b/c many of the universities that their students were applying to outside of the state were starting to require 3 yrs.

 

Over the last several yrs what he told me has proved to be accurate.   More and more schools are requiring at least 3 yrs and some actually have the preference of 4. 

[regentrude]

Of the schools DD is interested in, most require three, and some recommend four years. Some still only ask for two.

[Laura in CA]

One tip I can share is to pay attention to what good local private or regional private schools are doing.   They tend to pick up the trends of major universities before local school systems.   Only our oldest did only 2 yrs of foreign language.   I realized when our oldest was in 10th or 11th grade that the local private schools were starting to require 3 yrs of a single foreign language.  

 

Good idea!

 

The UC system wants 3 years of the same foreign language,* and the Cal State universities want 2 years, so most local high schools encourage students to take at least 2-3 years of foreign language in high school.

 

* only they don't call it a "foreign language" -- no, the PC designation is "language other than English." Don't get me started ...  :glare:

[jhschool]

Harvard wants 4.

 

[ThisIsTheDay]

All of the schools in which dd was interested required two years.  She completed this easily by taking two semesters of dual enrollment via community college during her senior year.  She chose a language that was not actually available AT our local community college, but it was offered online through another within our state.  That made it quite convenient, since she could do the work on her own schedule and not have to worry about planning to be AT a classroom during the week.

[Grantmom]

So would one semester of a community college foreign language class be the equivalent of one high school year's credit?

[ThisIsTheDay]

We counted it that way, and it was accepted by the colleges to which dd applied (and was accepted).

 

Actually, I'm looking at those schools right now.  None have requirements set in stone. Two suggest rigorous/challenging curriculum in subjects that include foreign language.  Another recommends 3-4 years foreign language.  The last said two years are "required" but then stated that an incoming student must take a specific level language course if they don't have two years.

 

I am under the impression that it counts for a full high school credit because of the content of the material covered.  Both of dd's foreign language classes at CC were 5 credit classes (but counted as 1 high school credit per each).

 

Sometimes this stuff is clear as mud.  :)

 

[Grantmom]

Thanks!  Is there something that shows what constitutes one high school credit?  And how college classes translate to high school credits typically?

 

College credits are based on number of class hours per week in one semester's time.  Is there a similar formula for high school credits?

[Rosie_0801]

* only they don't call it a "foreign language" -- no, the PC designation is "language other than English." Don't get me started ...  :glare:

So it ought to be! ASL is a proper language, but not foreign. Whatever native languages are still in use and are proper, but not foreign. Hopefully the PC language is a step to greater recognition of the worth of those languages.

 

Did I get you started? :p

[Musicmom]

I can't point to any particular document showing this, but from everything I've seen/read over my past years 15-16 years of homeschooling, one high school credit is the equivalent of a high school level academic course meeting 5 hours per week over an entire school year, plus homework.*

 

To translate college level courses (which are one semester long) to high school credits, it's often helpful to think in terms of the amount of material covered. For example, at the college level, 2 years (i.e. 4 semesters) of a foreign language will typically cover the same material as 4 years of that language at the high school level. An introductory college chemistry course covers in one semester what a high school chemistry course covers in one year. Semester 1 of a college calculus sequence is going to cover roughly the material of AP Calculus AB (usually a one year course in high school), and semester 2 will be the equivalent of AP Calculus BC. Then, looking at the number of credit hours for these more obvious college courses, you can also get an idea of how to adjust high school credits for college courses where the translation is less obvious. It's a little "seat of the pants" but I figured that one high school credit was equivalent to a 4-credit college course.*

 

*I had a section in my Homeschool Profile (sent to all the colleges my ds applied to) explaining how I awarded credits, and put both these statements of high school credit equivalency there. Ds applied to 3 extremely selective colleges (one of which he's now attending) and none of them batted an eye. For dd (whose prospective colleges, though selective, didn't want the Profile) I just assigned high school credits using these guidelines, and none of the colleges she applied to batted an eye either.

 

Hope this helps!

[Corraleno]

Thanks!  Is there something that shows what constitutes one high school credit?  And how college classes translate to high school credits typically?

 

College credits are based on number of class hours per week in one semester's time.  Is there a similar formula for high school credits?

 

A standard "Carnegie Unit" is 120 hours:

 

The unit was developed in 1906 as a measure of the amount of time a student has studied a subject. For example, a total of 120 hours in one subject—meeting 4 or 5 times a week for 40 to 60 minutes, for 36 to 40 weeks each year—earns the student one "unit" of high school credit.

 

http://www.carnegiefoundation.org/faqs

 

Jackie

[ThisIsTheDay]

And here's HSLDA's opinion, which includes community college courses and hours.

[Candid]

A standard "Carnegie Unit" is 120 hours:

 

 

http://www.carnegiefoundation.org/faqs

 

Jackie

 

This is starting to get off topic, but I'm not convinced home schoolers are wise to use Carnegie Units. 

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/412431-course-description-template-plus-questions/?do=findComment&comment=4162995

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Do keep in mind the difference between amount of course work required for entrance to a school and the amount a successful applicant has completed.  Those are often two different numbers.  If you are in a competitive admissions situation the latter may be more important.

[Corraleno]

This is starting to get off topic, but I'm not convinced home schoolers are wise to use Carnegie Units. 

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/412431-course-description-template-plus-questions/?do=findComment&comment=4162995

 

The "contact" requirement is really only applicable to brick & mortar schools. Even with accredited online schools, the student is not in face-to-face contact with a teacher for 4 hrs/wk — in many cases the only contact is email or perhaps a one-hour virtual class. Those kids still get a full credit. 

 

Also, I think it's generally acknowledged that for courses where one credit equals a standard body of material, such as math or science classes, you cannot just give a credit when the student hits 120 hours, if he/she is only half-way through the book. OTOH, a student who gets through a standard Algebra text in 60 hours still gets a full credit, because they covered the material.

 

But for subjects where homeschoolers are putting together their own courses (literature, history, electives), and want to have a rough idea of the amount of work that would be equivalent to a standard HS credit, I think that having a ballpark number, like 120 hours, is useful.

 

Jackie

[Candid]

 

But for subjects where homeschoolers are putting together their own courses (literature, history, electives), and want to have a rough idea of the amount of work that would be equivalent to a standard HS credit, I think that having a ballpark number, like 120 hours, is useful.

 

Jackie

 

I don't agree. It would be much wiser to try to compare to content required. In the case of a class with no direct comparison, I still think material comparison would be the way to go.

 

So to use one example if I wanted to do an ASL class, but had not direct comparison (although I suspect there are ASL classes to compare out there) I'd look at more traditional language classes and get a sense of what they cover in terms of amount of vocabulary, grammar, etc to decide what I would want to cover. 

 

With things like science again I'd look at how much is covered in a year and aim for a similar amount. English and history are pretty easy on this front.

 

The other thing I'd look for is level, asking myself if the materials used were at a high enough level for whatever I was calling this class. 

 

This approach keeps a class from being too skimpy no matter how many hours devoted to it OR too much. 

[Corraleno]

I don't agree. It would be much wiser to try to compare to content required. In the case of a class with no direct comparison, I still think material comparison would be the way to go.

 

 

For common foreign languages, as well as math and science, there is a standard body of material to be covered, and it's easy to look through a math or science text and see what constitutes a basic coverage of "Algebra I" or "Physics I." But if I based my English classes on the material they cover in local high schools, we'd be reading 2 novels and doing a whole lot of pointless busy work. And for courses like philosophy or linguistics, or languages like Mongolian and Sanskrit, there are no high school level materials for comparison. 

 

In many cases, we will far exceed 120 hrs per credit, because I base courses like history & English on what I feel should be covered (which bears no resemblance to the "standard material" in PS). But for courses like Linguistics, History of English, Cognitive Science, Computer Programming, Greek Philosophy, American Art, Beginning Mongolian, etc., I will generally go by time spent, with anywhere from 60-100 hours counting as a half-credit and anything over 120 hours equalling one credit.

 

Jackie

[J-rap]

The amount of foreign language required really depends on the college. I know of students who have only one year, yet got into college. My own kids had mostly 4 years (one of them had just 3). Math didn't come easily for most of my children, so we decided to really push foreign language, which they all enjoyed. (No rhyme or reason to that really, it's just what we did.) At least for my kids, it opened up more scholarship opportunities.

[Candid]

For common foreign languages, as well as math and science, there is a standard body of material to be covered, and it's easy to look through a math or science text and see what constitutes a basic coverage of "Algebra I" or "Physics I." But if I based my English classes on the material they cover in local high schools, we'd be reading 2 novels and doing a whole lot of pointless busy work. And for courses like philosophy or linguistics, or languages like Mongolian and Sanskrit, there are no high school level materials for comparison. 

 

In many cases, we will far exceed 120 hrs per credit, because I base courses like history & English on what I feel should be covered (which bears no resemblance to the "standard material" in PS). But for courses like Linguistics, History of English, Cognitive Science, Computer Programming, Greek Philosophy, American Art, Beginning Mongolian, etc., I will generally go by time spent, with anywhere from 60-100 hours counting as a half-credit and anything over 120 hours equalling one credit.

 

Jackie

 

I never came back and posted in response to this and I was reminded of this thread by another discussion and thought I'd post some more. 

 

I both agree and disagree with I bolded. I am fortunate, I suppose, to live in a school district where the public high school is routinely ranked in the top 100 schools in the country. So I have a higher bar in terms of local comparison. 

 

BUT I would be foolish to just compare my course to their courses. Instead what I want to do is at least be aware of what the competition for my students are going to be taking in high school. I hope, hope, that some of their competition will be from elite private schools. 

 

As an aside, in the past folks have been able to find some class lists for those schools and post them for comparison. Regentrude's chemistry course that has gotten passed around quite a bit is exactly this. 

 

And I will admit that when I visualize that competition I may be setting an even higher bar. Some of that bar is probably my own wish for what I could have studied in high school. It maybe be fantasy land.

 

I still think, suspect, that we can cover the material in those other classes a bit quicker than they do in those ordinary classrooms. That's why I don't like the hour counting formula. 

[StephanieZ]

When I was in high school in the 80s, the college-bound diploma required either 3 years of ONE language or 2 years each of TWO languages. Many top colleges suggest four years of a single foreign (spoken) language.

 

So, I've used 4 years of a single language as my baseline, but I'd consider letting them drop the final fourth year if there was a really good reason.

 

[mathwonk]

I had two years of French in high school and really struggled in college when forced into a more advanced language class based on a test score. (Some students in that class had as many as 8 years instruction and others had lived abroad.) I still don't speak at all well, and cannot even read a novel in that language. My son had 4 years of French in his high school from an excellent teacher, and it led to his being fluent in that language and even able to function comfortably in his business role as the guy who gets to go to Paris on assignment. His French colleagues love having an American who speaks French. So I recommend at least 3 or 4, not just for college requirements but for the value of greater mastery.