Do you lie to your children?

[Mom to Aly]

I swore I would never lie to my daughter. I had to over Mr. Claus, etc, and even that made me feel horrible. Then my xh left, and I found I had to (although he later said, or rather yelled, how happy he was to have left me for someone else, plus lots more).

 

But I have found I do have to not tell her the truth about some things, more because other people have big mouths than anything else--I don't know how many times my mom or sister will say something in front of her that she should not know at her age, and I'll have to cover for it, especially my sister, who has no kids. But she is 43--you would think common sense would hit her at some age, no?

 

Still, I absolutely hate lying in general, and to my daughter, specifically. I try to avoid it at all costs. I'm also a horrible liar, and it usually shows when I try to do it. I know it sounds strange, but I truly don't believe in lying. I don't see why you should open your mouth if you are going to allow an untruth to come out of it.

[mommylawyer]

I lied to my 5 year old today, but with good reason. She overheard DH and I discussing a problem another family member is having. She asked specifically about that family member. We told her we were talking about a case that we have together not about that family member. (We don't want the children to know that anything is amiss with their cousins.)

[Peek a Boo]

Turn it around, Phred.

 

Do you lie to your children and tell them there is no God, or do you present that as merely your "belief".

 

;)

 

 

gotta agree here. If you can't yet prove X exists, you can't prove it doesn't exist either. Biblically it will be revealed and EVERYONE will know, so i know that it WILL be proved to everyone :D

 

 

No, I've never told my kids God is a person because He isn't. And what you don't understand is that God has proven Himself to me even if I can't prove it to you, nor do I feel a need to. Santa has never done that. But you also have to understand very well is that all my kids know that ultimately, their faith rests with them. Nor do I feel a need to pray for your soul, so you won't hear me preach that; I do pray for those who hunger & thirst after righteousness...

 

me too.

 

 

I think what you're missing, Phred, is that even though I can't scientifically prove God's existence, that doesn't make me any less sure of Him. If science somehow finally proved His existence, I wouldn't be any more assured of God's existence than I am right now. There are other ways of knowing truth other than through science or observation.

 

Prove that your wife loves you (if you're married... I'm not clear on the details of your life). ...... Science can't prove whether she loves you or not. Are you any less certain than she loves you, because you have no scientific data? No, because you *know.* Same with God. No scientific proof necessary.

 

:iagree:

well put.

 

------------------------

and yeah -- I'll lie to my kids over little stuff that they simply aren't ready to process yet if they are having difficulty coming to grips w/ the situation. Having seen kids work themselves into a frenzy over "not enough info" it is sometimes more beneficial for them and the people around them to have an answer that they CAN process w/ the limited understanding they DO have.

 

 

I'd bet the mom in the OP has a typical line of discussion already in mind for later questions. Different people process info and situations in different ways. kids too ;)

[3lilreds in NC]

I put that I would never lie, but I suppose I should explain.

 

If they ask me a direct question, I will tell them the truth. So, they know Santa isn't real. (They aren't old enough to understand the abstract Santa thing - they know about St. Nicholas - you know what I mean.) Ditto the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny.

 

Sometimes I am not forthcoming with telling them things that I know will upset them or make my life more difficult. If they need to know, they know, but if they don't.... I reserve the right to withhold information if I think it's necessary.

 

And, if they were terminally ill or something like that... would I tell them? I dunno. I would like them to be as happy as possible for as long as possible. (Why am I thinking about this? Can you tell we've had an interesting week? Gah.)

[gardenschooler]

My pet peeve is parents lying to their children to make life easier. My parents lied to me all the time, and it really bothered me. I never felt like I could trust them to tell me the truth, because they always took the easy way out.

 

When my cat went missing, and I knew my sister's dog was probably up to no good (a notorius killer), they told me she ran away. They also would say, every time we passed ToysRUS, that it was closed. Medical procedures, as well. All sorts of lies, all the time.

 

I will tell them some things aren't their business, but I tell them that ToysRUs is open, and we're not going! :D

[Grubbsfamily]

I see no contradiction between the two....? Of course I tell my children that God is real. I have seen enough evidence of His existence in my life to know that He is real. If I were to say that He were *not* real, I would be lying. If I were to always say, "I *believe* He's real," that gives the impression that I think there's a chance He might not be... and imo, based on what I know and have experienced, there is no chance of that. I think what you're missing, Phred, is that even though I can't scientifically prove God's existence, that doesn't make me any less sure of Him. If science somehow finally proved His existence, I wouldn't be any more assured of God's existence than I am right now. There are other ways of knowing truth other than through science or observation.

 

Prove that your wife loves you (if you're married... I'm not clear on the details of your life). You could point to acts that she has done that show love-- but one could perform those acts without truly loving. All you have is the outside behavior, which doesn't prove her true heart. Science can't prove whether she loves you or not. Are you any less certain than she loves you, because you have no scientific data? No, because you *know.* Same with God. No scientific proof necessary.

 

I *know* that Santa Claus does not bring presents to our house, or have a house at the North Pole where he keeps a list of who's naughty and nice, or deliver presents on Christmas Eve. So imo, it would be lying to tell my kids that any of those things are true.

 

In both cases, I am telling my kids the truth as I know it. No contradiction there.

 

Erica

 

:iagree: I also agree that there are matters of disclosure, some things are not appropriate for children to know, see or hear.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't feel the need to lie to my children. If something is not appropriate for them to know about for whatever reason, I tell them that I'm not going to tell them because they don't need to know or because it isn't appropriate for them to know. Which is the truth.

 

My children respect my dh and I so that I don't have to lie to my children to get them to behave or to keep them from having a tantrum. Does that mean that they never have a tantrum because of hearing the truth? Of course not! But while it may be wearying and I may sigh and think "hear we go again", I brace myself and tell them the truth even though I am pretty sure I know the response. In fact, sometimes I will warn them before hand. "I don't want a tantrum. The answer is ......"

 

Sometimes I give them a very abbreviated answer that does not tell them everything in response. But that isn't to deceive but is simply because they don't have the capacity to have a more complete or complicated answer. Or sometimes because a more complicated answer is none of their business (which I will tell them if they keep asking for more detail).

 

In matters of faith, I tell them "The Bible says . . . ." And I make sure I tell them what it really says. We've talked in some depth about what other faiths believe in the context of history study.

[beansprouts]

My pet peeve is parents lying to their children to make life easier. My parents lied to me all the time, and it really bothered me. I never felt like I could trust them to tell me the truth, because they always took the easy way out.

 

When my cat went missing, and I knew my sister's dog was probably up to no good (a notorius killer), they told me she ran away. They also would say, every time we passed ToysRUS, that it was closed. Medical procedures, as well. All sorts of lies, all the time.

 

I will tell them some things aren't their business, but I tell them that ToysRUs is open, and we're not going! :D

 

 

And this is the kind of lie we are talking about. These lies are for convenience or to avoid dealing with immature behavior. I have no problem telling my children the truth (i.e. ToysRus is open, but we're not going there) because I know that I am the boss ;) I have no problem saying "no" to them and letting them voice their protest. How else will they learn they can not have everything they want? No, I would never lie to prevent them from dealing with a difficult life lesson, I would only be cheating them of a valuable learning experience.

[Phred]

No, I've never told my kids God is a person because He isn't. And what you don't understand is that God has proven Himself to me even if I can't prove it to you, nor do I feel a need to. Santa has never done that. But you also have to understand very well is that all my kids know that ultimately, their faith rests with them. Nor do I feel a need to pray for your soul, so you won't hear me preach that; I do pray for those who hunger & thirst after righteousness...

So unlike the rest of the world you don't have faith... you are certain. Without a doubt. And you tell your children this. So you aren't lying.

 

And your children's faith rests with them. Of course, they also know that if they should change or lose their faith they risk eternal ****ation. Right? There are consequences... isn't that the case?

 

I'd just like to be very clear about what you're saying here. Before I comment.

[Phred]

Turn it around, Phred.

 

Do you lie to your children and tell them there is no God, or do you present that as merely your "belief".

We've taken them to a couple of different churches... Lutheran and Methodist... and we've taught them about various gods. YHWH being one of them. We laugh about how silly some of them are, gods with hawk heads and human bodies. We've talked at length about the Chinese creation mythology and the Roman gods. We've also talked about Jesus. He's no more special than Thor or Apollo. The kids like the story of Noah, mostly because of the animals. There has never come a time when I've had to tell them I don't believe in God because that God isn't special enough to worry about. He's just one small god in a pantheon of gods humans have created over the years. They can decide for themselves someday if they want to worship one.

[Phred]

I see no contradiction between the two....? Of course I tell my children that God is real. I have seen enough evidence of His existence in my life to know that He is real. If I were to say that He were *not* real, I would be lying. If I were to always say, "I *believe* He's real," that gives the impression that I think there's a chance He might not be... and imo, based on what I know and have experienced, there is no chance of that. I think what you're missing, Phred, is that even though I can't scientifically prove God's existence, that doesn't make me any less sure of Him. If science somehow finally proved His existence, I wouldn't be any more assured of God's existence than I am right now. There are other ways of knowing truth other than through science or observation.

 

Prove that your wife loves you (if you're married... I'm not clear on the details of your life). You could point to acts that she has done that show love-- but one could perform those acts without truly loving. All you have is the outside behavior, which doesn't prove her true heart. Science can't prove whether she loves you or not. Are you any less certain than she loves you, because you have no scientific data? No, because you *know.* Same with God. No scientific proof necessary.

 

I *know* that Santa Claus does not bring presents to our house, or have a house at the North Pole where he keeps a list of who's naughty and nice, or deliver presents on Christmas Eve. So imo, it would be lying to tell my kids that any of those things are true.

 

In both cases, I am telling my kids the truth as I know it. No contradiction there.

 

Erica

Yes... and I can respond with all sorts of data that you will disregard. So throw science out. And throw love out since every year thousands of couples who knew the other person loved them get divorced when it turned out they were wrong.

 

Here's the thing. You have made a choice to tell your children what you believe is fact. And for most of their young lives they will believe that there is a God that is 100% Grade A real. No doubt at all. Only when they are older will they find that this belief is faulty, that there isn't such certainty.

 

Is this a lie?

[Phred]

gotta agree here. If you can't yet prove X exists, you can't prove it doesn't exist either.

So then Thor and Zeus and all the others must exist too... since you can't prove they don't exist... isn't that right?

[Parrothead]

If I have a very good reason and for Santa/Easter Bunny types.

A good reason would be if she asked about something not age appropriate.

[Erica in PA]

Yes... and I can respond with all sorts of data that you will disregard. So throw science out. And throw love out since every year thousands of couples who knew the other person loved them get divorced when it turned out they were wrong.

 

Here's the thing. You have made a choice to tell your children what you believe is fact. And for most of their young lives they will believe that there is a God that is 100% Grade A real. No doubt at all. Only when they are older will they find that this belief is faulty, that there isn't such certainty.

 

Is this a lie?

 

No, it's not a lie. I think our difference here mainly lies in what we rely on to know that something is real. I do believe that God is "100% Grade A real." Because, unlike you, I do not require scientific or observation of God to know that He is real. My experiences with Him, as well as observation of the creation around me, reading the Bible, and hearing about other's experiences-- those *do* prove it to me. Just the same way that things convince you when science backs it up. So telling my children that cannot be a lie. If I did not believe that God was real, and I told them He was, that would be a lie.

 

If, when my children grow up, they reject God, will they feel that I lied to them? No, I don't think so. I pray that never happens, that they will follow God, but just for the sake of this conversation, I am sure they would understand that I told them the truth, as far as I knew it. I don't see how that could be considered lying, even in the worst case scenario.

 

Erica

[Peek a Boo]

So then Thor and Zeus and all the others must exist too... since you can't prove they don't exist... isn't that right?

 

MUST exist? not as far as I'm concerned. Even if they do, they would be way below God Himself. ;)

 

eta: and NOT a "god". Like many, they would just think they were a god ;)

 

There has never come a time when I've had to tell them I don't believe in God because that God isn't special enough to worry about. He's just one small god in a pantheon of gods humans have created over the years. They can decide for themselves someday if they want to worship one.

 

But WOULD you lie to them and state as fact something that you maintain has no proof?

 

 

Yes... and I can respond with all sorts of data that you will disregard. So throw science out. And throw love out since every year thousands of couples who knew the other person loved them get divorced when it turned out they were wrong.

 

except that as you have mentioned, the reason we disregard it is that science simply can't prove or disprove God. But if you feel you really have a case feel free to state it. You don't have to throw love out because there are thousands of couples who STAY married too.

 

eta: and i missed another one: if we can dismiss the idea of love because thousands of people supposedly prove they didn't love, then we can in turn dismiss teh idea of faith in a God because millions of people don't believe in a God, right?

 

The question was a much more personal one that you are in turn asking US:

Do you lie to your kids and tell them you love them?

Do you lie to your wife and tell her you love her?

 

If you can't answer the question, you lose YOUR case too. Examine your own statement ina new light:

 

 

Here's the thing. You have made a choice to tell your children what you believe is fact. And for most of their young lives they will believe that you "love" them [how silly] and that this "love" and "care" is 100% Grade A real. No doubt at all. Only when they are older will they find that this belief is faulty, that there isn't such certainty.

 

Is this a lie?

so Phred-- are YOU lying to your children and wife? Are they lying to you? Or are we assuming too much and love and care is actually something that is not practiced or acknowledged in your home?

 

eta: sorry --i accidentally hit enter when the toddler grabbed my arm before i was done forming the rest of the post and had to go back and fix it.... so if it changed while/after you were reading it, i apologize :)

[Peek a Boo]

So unlike the rest of the world you don't have faith... you are certain. Without a doubt. And you tell your children this. So you aren't lying.

 

And your children's faith rests with them. Of course, they also know that if they should change or lose their faith they risk eternal ****ation. Right? There are consequences... isn't that the case?

 

I'd just like to be very clear about what you're saying here. Before I comment.

 

 

actually, we are certain BY faith.

 

And yeah --EVERYONE's eternal existence revolves around this belief. Most don't care because they don't believe that eternal existence to be valid. And our children are not exempt from God's judgement. no matter how much we love them ;)

[Jugglin'5]

We've taken them to a couple of different churches... Lutheran and Methodist... and we've taught them about various gods. YHWH being one of them. We laugh about how silly some of them are, gods with hawk heads and human bodies. We've talked at length about the Chinese creation mythology and the Roman gods. We've also talked about Jesus. He's no more special than Thor or Apollo. The kids like the story of Noah, mostly because of the animals. There has never come a time when I've had to tell them I don't believe in God because that God isn't special enough to worry about. He's just one small god in a pantheon of gods humans have created over the years. They can decide for themselves someday if they want to worship one.

 

I am not sure I am following you here...are you saying that your children don't know that you are an atheist?:confused:

[beansprouts]

There has never come a time when I've had to tell them I don't believe in God because that God isn't special enough to worry about. He's just one small god in a pantheon of gods humans have created over the years. They can decide for themselves someday if they want to worship one.

 

If there is no god than why would you want your children to be decieved? Don't you want them to know the Truth? Isn't it irresponsible to leave them fumbling in the darkness and entertaining myths?

 

You claim there is no certainty, and yet you claim with certainty that there is no god. You prosyletize your atheism here with passion and devotion. I admire your faith, really :001_smile:

 

However, you can be very harsh and critical of those who do not believe as you do. I can only guess that these attitudes are pretty evident at home also. I wonder if your children will feel safe and free from condemnation to earnestly seek Truth if it means entertaining a faith that differs from your own.

[angela in ohio]

I spent years waitressing in high school and college, and so many parents wanted me to lie to their dc ("You are out of pop, so Poopsie will have to have milk, right?" *wink*.) I never understood until I started having dc and being around other parents. Some people seem to really find it easier to manipulate things so that they never upset their dc. I understand the temptation, it certainly would be easier sometimes, LOL. We choose to just deal with our dc, though.

 

I can't think of a lie I've had to tell dc, but we omit an awful lot. And sometimes we tell them it's just none of their business, instead of lying. ;)

[Scarlett]

I never understood until I started having dc and being around other parents. Some people seem to really find it easier to manipulate things so that they never upset their dc. I understand the temptation, it certainly would be easier sometimes, LOL. We choose to just deal with our dc, though.

 

I can't think of a lie I've had to tell dc, but we omit an awful lot. And sometimes we tell them it's just none of their business, instead of lying. ;)

 

I rarely let ds8 have soda when we go out to eat. For starters it is bad for him and then there is the ridiculous COST of sodas (sometimes nearly $2 per drink) and then there is the fact that if he drinks soda before a meal he won't eat much. Anyway, even so, EVERY TIME we go out to eat he begs for soda and I say no. It has never crossed my mind to have the waitress tell him she is out of soda. Well, he is too old to believe that now, but still I would have never dreamed up that nonsense.

 

I want my ds to trust me. Since I try my best to be honest in the little things I hope he will trust me in the big things.

[autumndivona]

So then Thor and Zeus and all the others must exist too... since you can't prove they don't exist... isn't that right?

 

The Bible names bunches and bunches of other deities, as I recall. So, yup, they all existed in the minds of ancient man, but the Jewish people specifically decided to put their god ahead of the gods and goddesses of other cultures.

 

Gosh, I sure hope Thor exists. His daddy, Odin, is part of the Santa Claus story! ;)

 

Of course, there are several archetypes of deity that have been created by man over the years (for even though I do subscribe to Theistic belief, I also believe that man in his arrogance created god in his and her image, and not the other way around). We are fortunate to decide on which form of deity to choose to worship, if we choose to worship any at all.

 

And of course the existence of deity is not fact; it is all in belief, faith and personal experience. Because religion is experiential, one can never pass it off as universal fact and truth, but only as personal fact and truth. Hence, I never tell my child that Hera is real. His spiritual journey is just beginning, and hopefully will not end in this lifetime.

[Storm Bay]

So unlike the rest of the world you don't have faith... you are certain. Without a doubt. And you tell your children this. So you aren't lying.

 

Now we'll have to define terms, won't we? There is more than one definition of faith, including trust or belief. I both trust and believe that the sun comes up, but I've also seen conclusive evidence that it does. Actually, to be technical, the earth will keep turning. But if we're going to step into Biblical faith, there is also more than one type of faith, if you look at it. So this isn't a simple question.

 

I wouldn't say that I'm the only Christian who is 100 percent certain that God has revealed Himself to them. What I teach my children is what I know, but in our house as they get older they're to read the Bible for themselves. They're also expected to read things that directly challenge what the Bible says, and to use logic in both cases.

 

And your children's faith rests with them. Of course, they also know that if they should change or lose their faith they risk eternal ****ation. Right? There are consequences... isn't that the case?

 

Do I believe in eternal condemnation or ****ation? I certainly don't believe in purgatory, not being Roman Catholic. Nor do I believe people will burn forever--there's more than one Greek word translated as hell, isn't there? I do think some people will end up with eternal death and no consciousness, but that wouldn't differ much from what many atheists I know think happens to everyone, would it? I don't belong to a church that excommunicates or "marks and avoids."

 

There is so much theology here and, as you may well be aware, not all Christians agree. Honestly, I don't discuss theology with atheists as a rule, because I don't see much of a point to just debate it for the sake of debating. When I talk with Jews, Muslims, etc, I don't debate, either. Mostly I just ask questions about what they believe out of curiousity and because it often challengies me to rethink what I believe--much the same as the old evolution threads did.

 

 

I'd just like to be very clear about what you're saying here. Before I comment.

 

I was merely answering your question, and then asking you one simple question--what, if any, theory do you teach your children for abiogenesis, and, if you do, do you consider that faith since you cannot prove it? I haven't gone on to read your replies to others who answered you, but I'm planning to read any repsonses you made to some of the other responses to your question.

[Storm Bay]

 

Here's the thing. You have made a choice to tell your children what you believe is fact. And for most of their young lives they will believe that there is a God that is 100% Grade A real. No doubt at all. Only when they are older will they find that this belief is faulty, that there isn't such certainty.

 

Is this a lie?

 

Whoa, there, you can't assume this. My parents taught us all that there is a God, but my sister has never, ever believed. Not even once, according to her, but she, being the pleaser in the family, went through the motions in Church, etc. until jr. high or so. (so she says, and I believe her because she also resumed piano lessons, which she hated, for several years after quitting because she overheard my dad telling my mother how disappointed he was.)

 

At this point, only 2 of us believe. My parents have never condemned anyone or told them they're going to be ****ed. Wish I'd thought of this in my last post.

[Storm Bay]

Gosh, I sure hope Thor exists. His daddy, Odin, is part of the Santa Claus story! ;)

 

.

 

Snorri Sturluson, the man apparently responsible (Icelandic writers back then never signed their work, so authorship was attributed by contemporaries, but historians are sure it was him...oooooh, sounds a bit like faith, doesn't it;) ) for recording Norse religion/mythology for posterity (it had nearly been forgotten by his time) writes an account in the beginning of his history of the world that makes Thor, Odin, et al sound more like men than gods. And the story bears strong ties to Nimrod, his wife, her son, etc--they even came from the same part of the world where Nimrod apparently set up the city of Babylon...

 

Now, in the version of Norse mythology my sister had as a child, those gods died or something and the God of the Bible took their place. Of course, it was a children's book, not an authoritative document.

[Peek a Boo]

The Bible names bunches and bunches of other deities, as I recall. So, yup, they all existed in the minds of ancient man, but the Jewish people specifically decided to put their god ahead of the gods and goddesses of other cultures.

 

well, kinda.

 

The Bible lists that other people believe in and worship those other gods, but it also states rather unequivocally [and demonstrates in several instances ] that those are all false gods.

 

 

So technically it's not that the Jews placed God ahead of other false deities, but that God Himself TOLD them to place Him above false deities. Time and time the Jews strayed and God brought them back, so it wasn't a self-imposed thing ;)

[Liberty]

The whole time I was growing up my dad was never home (barely ever). My mom always told me he was working late. I thought he was the greatest dad in the world because he worked so hard for our family. His work ethic inspired me to do great things in school and beyond.

 

It wasn't until I was an adult that I found out the truth: my dad wasn't working most night-- he was at the bar drinking/partying every night.

 

This may sound warped, but I've always greatly admired my mother for lying to me. I grew up thinking the BEST of my dad (who slowly gave up drinking over the years--his policy was to never get drunk around the kids). I'm very close to my dad and love him dearly--how might have things turned out if I'd grown up despising my dad?

 

In all honesty, I do not know how my mom hid her own emotions so well, but she never did let on that anything was wrong in their marriage or with my dad (she is a rock). They've been married 60 years, my Dad never leaves the house and they are like newlyweds in love.

[autumndivona]

well, kinda.

 

The Bible lists that other people believe in and worship those other gods, but it also states rather unequivocally [and demonstrates in several instances ] that those are all false gods.

 

 

So technically it's not that the Jews placed God ahead of other false deities, but that God Himself TOLD them to place Him above false deities. Time and time the Jews strayed and God brought them back, so it wasn't a self-imposed thing ;)

 

And then, of course, that whole thing just begs the questions that I always like to ask of people of any religion (my own included because, yup, there ARE fundamentalist Pagans who think their trad and their deity are the only one), but I won't ask here simply because it will bring up a whole different set of debate. (I personally do like asking questions, to make people think - people in general just don't seem to think enough.)

 

If one were to stick to the "Do you lie to your children" thread, the question would be more along the lines of, do you explain that the Bible is simply someone else's opinion of things? Because the other gods being "false" is an opinion of the people who wrote the Bible.

 

Like I said, this leads to so much deeper conversation beyond lying, and instead gets more into personal belief, rather than absolute truth. Because nothing in the Bible or any holy book or religion can be held as true beyond a personal level.

 

Hence, when it comes to religion, do we lie to our children?

 

No. We personally do not consider sharing personal religious belief to be a lie when we speak of the elements of that point of view (God, Goddess, Creator, Creatrix, etc.) to our children, but some people here are also careful to explain to their children that these beliefs are personal and truthful only to ourselves, and not necessarily everyone else in the world.

[Peek a Boo]

And then, of course, that whole thing just begs the questions that I always like to ask of people of any religion (my own included because, yup, there ARE fundamentalist Pagans who think their trad and their deity are the only one), but I won't ask here simply because it will bring up a whole different set of debate. (I personally do like asking questions, to make people think - people in general just don't seem to think enough.)

 

If one were to stick to the "Do you lie to your children" thread, the question would be more along the lines of, do you explain that the Bible is simply someone else's opinion of things? Because the other gods being "false" is an opinion of the people who wrote the Bible.

 

Like I said, this leads to so much deeper conversation beyond lying, and instead gets more into personal belief, rather than absolute truth. Because nothing in the Bible or any holy book or religion can be held as true beyond a personal level.

Hence, when it comes to religion, do we lie to our children?

 

No. We personally do not consider sharing personal religious belief to be a lie when we speak of the elements of that point of view (God, Goddess, Creator, Creatrix, etc.) to our children, but some people here are also careful to explain to their children that these beliefs are personal and truthful only to ourselves, and not necessarily everyone else in the world.

 

I like seeing questions asked too :)

 

But honestly, viewing the Bible as "opinion" is like viewing my love for my children [or anyone else] as "merely opinion" -- another person may dismiss it as opinion, but I know it is cold hard fact. It *is* absolute truth.

 

Just because some people do not agree with the idea of gravity does not make it any less true or less applicable to all things or people.

 

Now maybe some think this concept of universal application is unique to Christianity --how many religions offer the exact same reward/goal for people who DON't follow the tenets of the faith? Will God/G-d/Allah/Goddess NOT punish the "wicked" who dismiss that particular faith? Will my unbelief in what God/G-d/Allah/goddess requires make me exempt from any judgment or action? Will they reward me even if I don't believe?

 

You are correct in noting that's a heavy topic for a whole nuther thread....

i do understand that we need to educate our children on worldviews, but there is simply no way i can dismiss what the Bible says ABOUT those worldviews. And i do understand that some people DO believe faith to be ONLY a personal relationship --but that is just an opinion too ;)

[Mississippi Missy]

I don't lie to my kids, but I don't always give all the facts.

[clwcain]

No. We personally do not consider sharing personal religious belief to be a lie when we speak of the elements of that point of view (God, Goddess, Creator, Creatrix, etc.) to our children, but some people here are also careful to explain to their children that these beliefs are personal and truthful only to ourselves, and not necessarily everyone else in the world.

 

This presumes that religious belief, and the superiority of one faith's truth-claims over all others, is not objectively verifiable.

 

If all religious belief is subjective and personal, then you are correct.

 

If, as several religious traditions assert, religious belief is objective and external, than the assumption in your above statement is false.

 

But, I also agree this is fodder for another thread.

 

Here endeth the threadjack. /threadjack

[Phred]

But WOULD you lie to them and state as fact something that you maintain has no proof?

When they're old enough I'll tell them I think there is no god, there are no gods... I'll show them that there is no proof to sustain a logical belief in such beasties... that all people who believe in such things do so from emotion, not reason.

 

except that as you have mentioned, the reason we disregard it is that science simply can't prove or disprove God. But if you feel you really have a case feel free to state it. You don't have to throw love out because there are thousands of couples who STAY married too.

I didn't throw love out, I threw the argument out. It's a ridiculous analogy, similar to the air analogy. An emotion is not a god. Or are you saying that your god is just something you feel. In that case I'm likely to go along with you.

[Phred]

actually, we are certain BY faith.

 

And yeah --EVERYONE's eternal existence revolves around this belief. Most don't care because they don't believe that eternal existence to be valid. And our children are not exempt from God's judgement. no matter how much we love them ;)

Faith: Mental acceptance of and confidence in a claim as truth without proof supporting the claim.

 

Yes... faith allows you to skirt the need for proof. It allows you to be certain. The rest of your post is... why faith is not evidence.

[Phred]

I am not sure I am following you here...are you saying that your children don't know that you are an atheist?:confused:

I'm pretty sure my kids don't know what an atheist is. They know I don't have any use for religion. Beyond that I don't know that they've thought about it or that they care.

 

Filling a kids head full of salvation and Jesus loves you at this age is borderline child abuse. Why should they care about hell or even the existence of such a place? "If I should die before I wake" ... That's horrible. Just horrible.

[newlifemom]

I am not going to pretend to be a smart as you are. That being said I really believe that you have taken this thread in a vein it was not intended to go. As it would appear you do anything that comes close to discussing any faith. I honestly feel that your whole goal on this forum is proselytizing(sp?). Is it possible for the people here to have an honest conversation without it becoming a debate for or against your personal beliefs/facts/whatever you want to call it?:confused:

[Phred]

If there is no god than why would you want your children to be decieved?

Do you tell your children about Mithras, or Allah, or Ra? No... you don't. Why not? Because they don't exist and can't do anything to your kids. What's deceiving about not telling children about something that doesn't exist? Telling them about a dangerous curve in the road, that's useful.

 

Don't you want them to know the Truth? Isn't it irresponsible to leave them fumbling in the darkness and entertaining myths?

They were born knowing the truth. Then our society started in on God this and Jesus that. I just don't reinforce it. When they're older we might have some more serious conversations.

 

You claim there is no certainty, and yet you claim with certainty that there is no god. You prosyletize your atheism here with passion and devotion. I admire your faith, really :001_smile:

Actually, I'm quite certain that the god of the Bible does not exist. That I am certain of. He can't, he's a contradiction and contradictions cannot exist. So if there is a "higher power" or what we might refer to as a "god" it isn't YHWH. Again... IMO.

 

However, you can be very harsh and critical of those who do not believe as you do. I can only guess that these attitudes are pretty evident at home also. I wonder if your children will feel safe and free from condemnation to earnestly seek Truth if it means entertaining a faith that differs from your own.

Do you really think I would raise sheep? But seriously... why is it important that people seek out faith? (And what is it with the capital 'T' truth?) In the end there's only one question that matters, and that's whether or not we live on after we die. When you realize that's the game we're playing and those are the stakes you start to figure out why it's so important that people believe there's an afterlife. For one thing you're never going to get the serfs to fight wars for you if there isn't.

 

But... I must run. More on this if you'd like to continue.

[Storm Bay]

Actually, I'm quite certain that the god of the Bible does not exist. That I am certain of. He can't, he's a contradiction and contradictions cannot exist. So if there is a "higher power" or what we might refer to as a "god" it isn't YHWH. Again... IMO.

.

 

Can you prove, scientifically and beyond a shadow of a doubt that contradictions don't exist? Because, for one eg, Physics is finding some apparently very contradictory stuff. What many reputable physicists are finding now is raising far more questions than it's answering. (not that I agree with your statement, because I think a lot of that contradictory stuff comes from misinterpretation, and this is NOT something I want to pursue here at all.)

 

Just curious, even though this isn't directly related to this topic, and perhaps you've answered this, is your background in science? If so, which field? If not, which are your favourite scientific books (not online stuff)?

[Peek a Boo]

I didn't throw love out, I threw the argument out. It's a ridiculous analogy, similar to the air analogy. An emotion is not a god. Or are you saying that your god is just something you feel. In that case I'm likely to go along with you.

 

 

No --to set the discussion on course, we're asking about what constitutes a fact.

 

Is it a FACT you love your wife/kids? Or is it just an emotion?

 

Is an emotion a lie?

 

we need to establish some specifics so we aren't talking past each other. This might take a few posts, but i think it's worth it ;)

 

The topic was about LYING:

you said:

 

Here's the thing. You have made a choice to tell your children what you believe is fact. And for most of their young lives they will believe that there is a God that is 100% Grade A real. No doubt at all. Only when they are older will they find that this belief is faulty, that there isn't such certainty.

 

Is this a lie?

 

I asked for clarification and an answer to a similar question [which you still haven't specifically answered]:

 

Here's the thing. You have made a choice to tell your children what you believe is fact. And for most of their young lives they will believe that you "love" them [how silly] and that this "love" and "care" is 100% Grade A real. No doubt at all. Only when they are older will they find that this belief is faulty, that there isn't such certainty.

Is this a lie?

 

so Phred-- are YOU lying to your children and wife? Are they lying to you? Or are we assuming too much and love and care is actually something that is not practiced or acknowledged in your home?

 

and another... can someone who is paralyzed and unable to communicate capable of this "love"?? If they can't "prove" it, does it really exist??

 

so now we are back to whether it is lying or not.

 

let's establish this part first, then we can certainly continue on ;)

[Phred]

Now we'll have to define terms, won't we? There is more than one definition of faith, including trust or belief. I both trust and believe that the sun comes up, but I've also seen conclusive evidence that it does. Actually, to be technical, the earth will keep turning. But if we're going to step into Biblical faith, there is also more than one type of faith, if you look at it. So this isn't a simple question.

I too believe that the sun will come up but that doesn't mean it will. We'll see if it does in the morning. Anything could happen. Of course, if it doesn't we won't be here typing about it so the point is moot. I think it's a very simple question when you look at the context.

 

I wouldn't say that I'm the only Christian who is 100 percent certain that God has revealed Himself to them. What I teach my children is what I know, but in our house as they get older they're to read the Bible for themselves. They're also expected to read things that directly challenge what the Bible says, and to use logic in both cases.

And I'd say I'm not the only atheist who is certain that you've taken normal experiences we all have and labeled them as being "God". I say this because there are a huge number of other people on the other side of the world who have the same experiences but label them "Allah" not "YHWH". The "god" that reveals itself to you is completely dependent, it seems, upon where you live or who you are influenced by. While I'm certain you believe what you say you believe... that doesn't make it true. You know this... so somehow you are aware that your belief isn't as rock solid as you make it out to be.

 

Do I believe in eternal condemnation or ****ation? I certainly don't believe in purgatory, not being Roman Catholic. Nor do I believe people will burn forever--there's more than one Greek word translated as hell, isn't there? I do think some people will end up with eternal death and no consciousness, but that wouldn't differ much from what many atheists I know think happens to everyone, would it? I don't belong to a church that excommunicates or "marks and avoids."

 

There is so much theology here and, as you may well be aware, not all Christians agree. Honestly, I don't discuss theology with atheists as a rule, because I don't see much of a point to just debate it for the sake of debating. When I talk with Jews, Muslims, etc, I don't debate, either. Mostly I just ask questions about what they believe out of curiousity and because it often challengies me to rethink what I believe--much the same as the old evolution threads did.

I understand.

 

I was merely answering your question, and then asking you one simple question--what, if any, theory do you teach your children for abiogenesis, and, if you do, do you consider that faith since you cannot prove it? I haven't gone on to read your replies to others who answered you, but I'm planning to read any repsonses you made to some of the other responses to your question.

I don't teach them anything... yet. But when I do I'll teach them that there is a natural answer to everything... the "supernatural" has no place in our world or our thinking. Mainly because there is no such thing. So when we look toward the first life we'll be looking for a very simple form of self-replicating molecule. Then we'll examine the various hypothesis that have been proposed.

 

Yes, there is a hole there... non-life to life. I don't know that it requires "faith" as you use the term. I think it's more like seeing several marbles at the top of a ramp and another marble at the bottom of a ramp. Must I have faith that it rolled down? Or can I take it as simple understanding that gravity acted upon it and pulled it down the ramp?

[Phred]

well, kinda.

 

The Bible lists that other people believe in and worship those other gods, but it also states rather unequivocally [and demonstrates in several instances ] that those are all false gods.

 

 

So technically it's not that the Jews placed God ahead of other false deities, but that God Himself TOLD them to place Him above false deities. Time and time the Jews strayed and God brought them back, so it wasn't a self-imposed thing ;)

Well... no... technically... since we're using that word, the people who wrote the book said God told them ... etc, etc, etc...

[Phred]

Can you prove, scientifically and beyond a shadow of a doubt that contradictions don't exist? Because, for one eg, Physics is finding some apparently very contradictory stuff. What many reputable physicists are finding now is raising far more questions than it's answering. (not that I agree with your statement, because I think a lot of that contradictory stuff comes from misinterpretation, and this is NOT something I want to pursue here at all.)

Something cannot be and not be at the same time. Certainly quantum realities are changing our opinions of particles and their ability to do just this... but that does not apply to things beyond the quantum realm.

 

Just curious, even though this isn't directly related to this topic, and perhaps you've answered this, is your background in science? If so, which field? If not, which are your favourite scientific books (not online stuff)?

I minored in physics in college and I've been a science nut since I was a child. My electric train shorted out because I stopped paying attention to it because apollo 13 had a problem. I can still figure out ballistics. Favorite books... Dawkins blind watchmaker, selfish gene. Science as a candle in the dark, Carl Sagan. Guns, germs and steel... that's a good one.

[Phred]

No --to set the discussion on course, we're asking about what constitutes a fact.

 

Is it a FACT you love your wife/kids? Or is it just an emotion?

 

Is an emotion a lie?

Only I can tell you if I have an emotion because it's my emotion. You can never know what my emotions are. They're personal. Love isn't a god. The existence of a deity isn't in any way the same as love as the universe would be exactly the same as it is whether I love someone or not. But the universe would not be the same if an omnipotent deity existed and interfered with it on a daily basis.

 

we need to establish some specifics so we aren't talking past each other. This might take a few posts, but i think it's worth it ;)

 

The topic was about LYING:

you said:

 

Here's the thing. You have made a choice to tell your children what you believe is fact. And for most of their young lives they will believe that there is a God that is 100% Grade A real. No doubt at all. Only when they are older will they find that this belief is faulty, that there isn't such certainty.

 

Is this a lie?

 

I asked for clarification and an answer to a similar question [which you still haven't specifically answered]:

What you've done is deflected the original question.

 

Here's the thing. You have made a choice to tell your children what you believe is fact. And for most of their young lives they will believe that you "love" them [how silly] and that this "love" and "care" is 100% Grade A real. No doubt at all. Only when they are older will they find that this belief is faulty, that there isn't such certainty.

Is this a lie?

 

so Phred-- are YOU lying to your children and wife? Are they lying to you? Or are we assuming too much and love and care is actually something that is not practiced or acknowledged in your home?

 

and another... can someone who is paralyzed and unable to communicate capable of this "love"?? If they can't "prove" it, does it really exist??

 

so now we are back to whether it is lying or not.

 

let's establish this part first, then we can certainly continue on ;)

Tell me how this is relevant to the original question and I'll answer it. At this point I see it as merely deflection and sarcasm.

[Carpe Diem]

Phred said the prayer line "If I die before I wake" was horrible. I agree, which is why WE say "May angels guard me through the night and wake me with the morning light."

[She]

This is why you should never lie to your children. It gets to into things you would never do otherwise. Okay, in retrospect this is funny, but...

 

We found a baby rabbit in our yard. We watched out the window off and on for ours without seeing a mamma rabit. I finally got some milk for it and bottle fed it. It did really well for several days. We even took it camping with it. One day it started to look really sick. By morning it was dead. Hubby and I got up and took it into the woods before the dc woke.

 

I told them it was time to let the rabbit go. She would be happier in the woods. Oh, they were so upset that they didn't get to say goodbye. And, she was just a baby, and she couldn't take care of herself. We didn't get a picture of her....etc.

 

So, hubby and I trapse back into the woods, and he takes a picture of me holding dead baby rabbit. You couldn't not tell that the rabbit was dead from the picture. Talk about guilt every time I saw that picture, and my children carried this picture around for months. And, asked daily, why we would let a baby like that fend for itself...... Ah the guilt! I finally fessed up.

 

There is a reason lying is a sin. Even when your trying to protect someone elses feelings. Bad, bad, Mommy!

 

Nope, I'd never do it again.

[Peek a Boo]

Only I can tell you if I have an emotion because it's my emotion. You can never know what my emotions are. They're personal. Love isn't a god. The existence of a deity isn't in any way the same as love as the universe would be exactly the same as it is whether I love someone or not. But the universe would not be the same if an omnipotent deity existed and interfered with it on a daily basis.

 

So you are saying that just because I can't experience your idea of love, that doesn't mean your love DOESN't exist?

 

Your original accusation is that you were accusing those of us who teach our children there is a God of lying. You can't prove he doesn't exist, so you have no proof there is any kind of lie --you are only limited in your "proof" by what you profess you simply haven't experienced. or to put it like you did:

 

While I'm certain you believe what you say you believe [that there is no God]... that doesn't make it true.

 

I posit that if you are teaching your children about something that has no evidence, you in turn are lying also. The original thread is about LYING --it's you that are deflecting from the original question. So for reasonabale discourse to continue

 

1. you need to support you initial accusation w/ proof

2. or you need to answer questions that others put forth --in teh same spirit that we answered yours

3. or withdraw your accusation

[Phred]

So you are saying that just because I can't experience your idea of love, that doesn't mean your love DOESN't exist?

I'm saying your commentary on love is irrelevant due to the fact that love is not a god. If you wish to have a conversation about love, I'm happy to, but not in this context, which is simply a diversion.

 

Your original accusation is that you were accusing those of us who teach our children there is a God of lying.

Here's what I said:

For all of you that say you do not lie to your children...

Do you tell them that God is a person and he exists without equivocation?

 

For those of you that said you won't lie to them about Santa or the Easter Bunny...

The same... do you tell them about God as if he is real without noting any difference between "believe" and "is"?

 

God is a belief, not a fact. I know of no denomination that can prove God exists, it's faith. And that's the point, isn't it?

 

Children have an awfully hard time when they find out something they believe in isn't real... I'm thinking of Santa here. When they do... they try to hold onto that belief even in the face of their peers (usually) telling them that Santa is false. But they can't distinguish between "I believe in" and "That is real"...

 

So how do you handle that... or do you care?

 

I didn't accuse you of lying, I asked you how you handled the nuances.

 

You can't prove he doesn't exist, so you have no proof there is any kind of lie --you are only limited in your "proof" by what you profess you simply haven't experienced. or to put it like you did:

 

While I'm certain you believe what you say you believe [that there is no God]... that doesn't make it true.

 

I posit that if you are teaching your children about something that has no evidence, you in turn are lying also. The original thread is about LYING --it's you that are deflecting from the original question. So for reasonabale discourse to continue

 

1. you need to support you initial accusation w/ proof

2. or you need to answer questions that others put forth --in teh same spirit that we answered yours

3. or withdraw your accusation

You can't prove a negative, I didn't make an accusation and I've answered as many questions about things that cannot be seen as I'm going to.

 

By the way, teaching children that there is no evidence for something is teaching them the truth, not lying. What you posit is false.

[Storm Bay]

You can't prove a negative, I didn't make an accusation and I've answered as many questions about things that cannot be seen as I'm going to.

 

By the way, teaching children that there is no evidence for something is teaching them the truth, not lying. What you posit is false.

 

So, you're not going to answer the two questions I asked you, or those others have asked, even though they're right along the lines of the questions you posed? Interesting.

[Phred]

So, you're not going to answer the two questions I asked you, or those others have asked, even though they're right along the lines of the questions you posed? Interesting.

I did answer the questions you asked. I'm referring to the unprofitable circle of "love" questions.

[HRAAB]

I voted if it was 'important'. Like life threatening. Can't actually remember an occasion like that. Of course, since I still believe in Santa Claus I don't consider that lying. Yes, I get gifts from Santa. ;) I tell my children that I believe in a Supreme Being/God/Consciousness.... I do. No, I can't prove that concretely. But nonetheless I tell them there is something greater than humans. I do not consider that a lie.

 

However, as usual, Phred brings up some good points. Since I've entered in my more agnostic stage and am struggling with Christianity, I have found it very hard to teach my children that certain Christian doctrines are true. I feel uncomfortable with it. I'm not sure. I haven't given it up, but I can't say with 100% conviction I believe 'this'; whatever 'this' might be. So I'll say something like: Christians believe this, Catholics believe this but most Protestants view it this way, Muslims believe this, etc. It gets me off the hook, for now. Dreading the day they look me in the face and say, "But mom, do you believe it?" Guess I'll send them off to their dad. Just joking.

 

However, passing on your faith I don't consider lying. Teaching your children about God is not lying if the parent truly believes. It would be a lie for Phred but not for someone truly convicted of God's existence.

 

That really didn't make any sense so I'm going to shut up. As usual, I'm enjoy Peek's and Phred's discussion. Always much to learn.

 

Janet

[Laurie4b]

I tell my kids that my husband and I love them. I know that my husband loves me as well. I cannot prove that by the scientific method, but it is true, nonetheless. There are other ways of ascertaining truth than those used by the scientific community.

 

It's also possible that my husband would love me and it would have no effect on me because I chose not to receive or believe that love. That's true now in the sense that he can tell me that he thinks I'm attractive, and my 50 plus year old self can pooh-pooh it and not take it into account because I substitute my own beliefs about aging attractiveness for his. I'm working on allowing myself to be more affected by his statements--to believe what he says in a way that really matters in our relationship. However, to the extent I shut that out, his love for me doesn't impact me to the extent that I don't allow it to. So it can be true, and I've never experienced it if I haven't been open to it.

 

There are times in relationships with kids when they doubt their parents love them, but it doesn't make it untrue. It's an indication that something is wrong in the relationship, but not necessarily that the love isn't there. It can mean that the evidence they see (No, you can't go to that party) doesn't match what they think they should see if their parents loved them.

 

So yes, I tell my children that God exists, and that he loves them. I am comfortable with various means of knowing in life. In no way do I consider statements of love as lies, though I can't prove them by the scientific method, nor do I think statements of God's existence or love for us are lies.

[Chris in CA]

Never, that said - fortunately they haven't asked too many hard questions, yet. But when they do, I'll be honest. Its important to me that they feel they can tell me anything- so I never want to get caught in a lie