God, trust, and all that stuff (obviously CC)

[Joanne]

{{{many hugs}}}

 

It was queries like this, juxtaposed with my life experience, that lead me away from a Judeo-Christian spiritiuality.

 

After many years of trying to find a way to believe in a traditional way, I simply admitted I didn't believe.

 

The injustice of life with an Omnipotent God will never make sense to me.

[Unicorn.]

The first thing you need to do is let go of the guilt. And by that, I mean the guilt you feel by even having questions, and not feeling "what you are supposed to feel" or believing "what you are supposed to believe". The guilt you have from being taught to believe and think a certain way. Let. it. Go. Listen to your heart. Find your own answers. Feel comfortable with what you believe, and don't worry about the fact that it doesn't look like what you think it should, based on other's beliefs. You may decide you're an atheist, or an agnostic, or you may come to your own conclusions about religion, and you may believe in your own way, and it doesn't fit in someone else's box. And that's okay. It really, really is. Believe what you want, not what you think you are supposed to believe. It's your life, you can decide for yourself what you believe or don't. Let go of the guilt of others. Hugs...and I hope this made sense...I'm tired, and the boy is interrupting me.

[Melissa in Australia]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Pamela H in Texas]

The first thing you need to do is let go of the guilt. And by that, I mean the guilt you feel by even having questions, and not feeling "what you are supposed to feel" or believing "what you are supposed to believe".

 

I agree here and almost said it yesterday. There are examples in the scriptures of people lamenting over very similar things. It didn't show them spiritually weak or having little faith in God. It simply meant they were having trouble processing all the bad they see in the world!

 

 

“Why, O Jehovah, do you keep standing afar off? Why do you keep yourself hid in times of distress?†(Psalm 10:1)

“How long, O Jehovah, must I cry for help, and you do not hear? How long shall I call to you for aid from violence, and you do not save? Why is it that you make me see what is hurtful, and you keep looking upon mere trouble? And why are despoiling and violence in front of me, and why does quarreling occur, and why is strife carried?â€â€”Habakkuk 1:2, 3.

 

These men were faithful men and not "disciplined" for asking. Instead, their words are in the Bible for everyone to see. Really, struggling with imperfection is a healthy thing. It isn't supposed to be like this. We're hardwired for LIFE.

 

Through your sadness, you may feel guilt for feeling so bad about things. Jesus said that it is good to be aware of our spiritual need (Matthew 5:3).

 

Anyway, just a few more thoughts.

[livetoread]

It's tough to struggle with these questions as an adult, but it is even tougher when you have taught your kids certain things and now you aren't sure you believe them anymore. I went through that and it was painful and awkward. It was a little easier for me though, because my kids never really believed even though at first I absolutely did. We had worship every morning, went to church, read the Bible, and prayed. They both argued with me from the get go. My son ended up in tears one day when I was trying to understand why he refused to pray. He told me sobbing, "I'm sorry Mom, I just don't think there is anything there."

 

Anyway, I understand that it isn't just you in the whole mix, it's your kids and their beliefs. We are taught how important we are to our children's salvation and that's a heavy burden if you can't put it down.

[countrygal]

Everywhere we look there are tragedies. But don't miss out - everywhere we look, there are also miracles and blessings. Take time to grieve the tragedies, don't forget what you have to be thankful for as well. It's hard for most people to do the latter. :grouphug: Jesus suffered and died, just like we are all destined to. To me, there is no greater love than a God who chooses to stoop down to our level and die just like we all will. He knows what it is like being fully man and fully God. He's not unaware of our suffering, even if we feel like He is sometimes, or even all the time. Sometimes we can't pray with words, and that's ok. Sometimes all we can do is cry or scream, and that's ok. Hope you feel better soon.

[8circles]

I've waffled back and forth on whether or not to post this because I don't want it to be like salt in a wound. On the other had, it brings me great comfort and I hope it does the same for you. You said you were looking for different perspectives on this tragedy and so I'll share. Our priest read the following story in a homily recently. From what I understand, it was a tale originally told in South America. This is the place in my life that I'm aspiring to reach. I can't let go of there being a God, and I believe the "one true God" (because that's part of my belief system, too) is the Christian God and I believe in the death and resurrection of Christ. So with that foundation, I have to find a peace with all that happens, "good" or "bad." To me, this is that peace.

 

- - - - - - - - - -

The Woodcutter's Wisdom

 

Once there was an old man who lived in a tiny village. Although poor, he was envied by all, for he owned a beautiful white horse. Even the king coveted his treasure. A horse like this had never been seen before—such was its splendor, its majesty, its strength.

 

People offered fabulous prices for the steed, but the old man always refused. “This horse is not a horse to me,†he would tell them. “It is a person. How could you sell a person? He is a friend, not a possession. How could you sell a friend?†The man was poor and the temptation was great. But he never sold the horse.

 

One morning he found that the horse was not in the stable. All the village came to see him. “You old fool,†they scoffed, “we told you that someone would steal your horse. We warned you that you would be robbed. You are so poor. How could you ever hope to protect such a valuable animal? It would have been better to have sold him. You could have gotten whatever price you wanted. No amount would have been too high. Now the horse is gone, and you’ve been cursed with misfortune.â€

 

The old man responded, “Don’t speak too quickly. Say only that the horse is not in the stable. That is all we know; the rest is judgment. If I’ve been cursed or not, how can you know? How can you judge?â€

 

The people contested, “Don’t make us out to be fools! We may not be philosophers, but great philosophy is not needed. The simple fact that your horse is gone is a curse.â€

The old man spoke again. “All I know is that the stable is empty, and the horse is gone. The rest I don’t know. Whether it be a curse or a blessing, I can’t say. All we can see is a fragment. Who can say what will come next?â€

 

The people of the village laughed. They thought that the man was crazy. They had always thought he was fool; if he wasn’t, he would have sold the horse and lived off the money. But instead, he was a poor woodcutter, an old man still cutting firewood and dragging it out of the forest and selling it. He lived hand to mouth in the misery of poverty. Now he had proven that he was, indeed, a fool.

 

After fifteen days, the horse returned. He hadn’t been stolen; he had run away into the forest. Not only had he returned, he had brought a dozen wild horses with him. Once again the village people gathered around the woodcutter and spoke. “Old man, you were right and we were wrong. What we thought was a curse was a blessing. Please forgive us.â€

 

The man responded, “Once again, you go too far. Say only that the horse is back. State only that a dozen horses returned with him, but don’t judge. How do you know if this is a blessing or not? You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge? You read only one page of a book. Can you judge the whole book? You read only one word of a phrase. Can you understand the entire phrase?

 

“Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. All you have is a fragment! Don’t say that this is a blessing. No one knows. I am content with what I know. I am not perturbed by what I don’t.â€

 

“Maybe the old man is right,†they said to one another. So they said little. But down deep, they knew he was wrong. They knew it was a blessing. Twelve wild horses had returned with one horse. With a little bit of work, the animals could be broken and trained and sold for much money.

 

The old man had a son, an only son. The young man began to break the wild horses. After a few days, he fell from one of the horses and broke both legs. Once again the villagers gathered around the old man and cast their judgments.

 

“You were right,†they said. “You proved you were right. The dozen horses were not a blessing. They were a curse. Your only son has broken his legs, and now in your old age you have no one to help you. Now you are poorer than ever.â€

 

The old man spoke again. “You people are obsessed with judging. Don’t go so far. Say only that my son broke his legs. Who knows if it is a blessing or a curse? No one knows. We only have a fragment. Life comes in fragments.â€

 

It so happened that a few weeks later the country engaged in war against a neighboring country. All the young men of the village were required to join the army. Only the son of the old man was excluded, because he was injured. Once again the people gathered around the old man, crying and screaming because their sons had been taken. There was little chance that they would return. The enemy was strong, and the war would be a losing struggle. They would never see their sons again.

 

“You were right, old man,†they wept. “God knows you were right. This proves it. Yours son’s accident was a blessing. His legs may be broken, but at least he is with you. Our sons are gone forever.â€

 

The old man spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. No one knows. Say only this: Your sons had to go to war, and mine did not. No one knows if it is a blessing or a curse. No one is wise enough to know. Only God knows.â€

This story is almost identical to a story in Taoism. I most recently read it in a book called Zen Shorts by Jon Muth. Great kids books.

[BakersDozen]

Hi, everyone. Stepped away from this thread to try and regain some kind of self-control. Not easy to do given the high emotions of the last 9 days here. During the memorial service for the firefighters I found myself yelling at the screen when one guy said there was a purpose to the tragedy, that this was part of God's plan. I was so, so, so angry and wondered how the family members sitting there could stand to listen. Their precious loved ones died a death that no one can imagine and this is God's plan???? Sorry, I don't buy it.

 

I appreciate so much the open and honest responses from all sides. I need to work through this crappy grief both from the community losses that are devastating and my own personal loss, then see how things look I guess. Part of me is afraid to really think on this because of the conclusions I am leaning toward; it's hard to change what you've believed in all your life.

 

One horrible thought I had the other day that I can't shake. Isn't there a syndrome where a parent/caretaker inflicts some kind of physical or mental ailment on someone they need/want to love and depend on them? In the world we call that psychosis and step in for the good of the child. In the church we call it faith.

 

That's messed up.

[8circles]

Hi, everyone. Stepped away from this thread to try and regain some kind of self-control. Not easy to do given the high emotions of the last 9 days here. During the memorial service for the firefighters I found myself yelling at the screen when one guy said there was a purpose to the tragedy, that this was part of God's plan. I was so, so, so angry and wondered how the family members sitting there could stand to listen. Their precious loved ones died a death that no one can imagine and this is God's plan???? Sorry, I don't buy it.

 

I appreciate so much the open and honest responses from all sides. I need to work through this crappy grief both from the community losses that are devastating and my own personal loss, then see how things look I guess. Part of me is afraid to really think on this because of the conclusions I am leaning toward; it's hard to change what you've believed in all your life.

 

One horrible thought I had the other day that I can't shake. Isn't there a syndrome where a parent/caretaker inflicts some kind of physical or mental ailment on someone they need/want to love and depend on them? In the world we call that psychosis and step in for the good of the child. In the church we call it faith.

 

That's messed up.

All I have for you are hugs. Many, many hugs. Im so sorry.

[Stacia]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Amy in NH]

I sorry for your losses. 

 

If you can doubt there is a God, can you also doubt there is a hell?

[Rosie_0801]

I pm'd you a while back. No hurry if you don't feel like reading it. ((hugs))

[milovany]

...one guy said there was a purpose to the tragedy, that this was part of God's plan. I was so, so, so angry and wondered how the family members sitting there could stand to listen. Their precious loved ones died a death that no one can imagine and this is God's plan???? Sorry, I don't buy it.

I'm so so sorry for your pain. I do want to comment to this last part, though, because having watched an interview with one of the wives, I realized last week that the families themselves might be saying this, believing this. What of that? Your anger is understandable, but perhaps its best to feel it on your own behalf and not "own" it for others. They may not feel the same way; they may not be angry. To assume they are could be an error. Please know I'm not trying to lessen what you feel. My 19yo son is currently signed up to be a wildland firefighter this summer. I was online when those headlines started coming through. You have to know what that did to my mommy heart. And yet I can't stop him from going. He'll go. And there's a possibility something could happen to him. My faith approach would be as described above; I'll have to accept that God allowed it to happen (I think there's a difference between that and "it was His will" but that's not the discussion for here).

 

 

One horrible thought I had the other day that I can't shake. Isn't there a syndrome where a parent/caretaker inflicts some kind of physical or mental ailment on someone they need/want to love and depend on them? In the world we call that psychosis and step in for the good of the child. In the church we call it faith. That's messed up.

As I said above, there's a group in the Christian world that would agree with you. All that happened was NOT God's will; He did NOT ordain for these men to die. It was the result of sin, or lack of faith, knowledge or understanding; in other words, it was human failure, not God's. God is loving and never ever plans and makes his children suffer. Pressing forward in faith and confidence is the way out of that kind of suffering and lack. (It's called "word of faith" if that would appeal to you; as I said above, we tried to live that belief system for a few years and realized in the end that it wasn't what we believe to be the way God and the church function).

 

((((( Hugs ))))) to you. If I said anything too harshly or if anything came out unkind, please forgive me. I'm watching a movie with my kids and am a bit distracted.

[Joanne]

Hi, everyone. Stepped away from this thread to try and regain some kind of self-control. Not easy to do given the high emotions of the last 9 days here. During the memorial service for the firefighters I found myself yelling at the screen when one guy said there was a purpose to the tragedy, that this was part of God's plan. I was so, so, so angry and wondered how the family members sitting there could stand to listen. Their precious loved ones died a death that no one can imagine and this is God's plan???? Sorry, I don't buy it.

 

I appreciate so much the open and honest responses from all sides. I need to work through this crappy grief both from the community losses that are devastating and my own personal loss, then see how things look I guess. Part of me is afraid to really think on this because of the conclusions I am leaning toward; it's hard to change what you've believed in all your life.

 

One horrible thought I had the other day that I can't shake. Isn't there a syndrome where a parent/caretaker inflicts some kind of physical or mental ailment on someone they need/want to love and depend on them? In the world we call that psychosis and step in for the good of the child. In the church we call it faith.

 

That's messed up.

 

 

:grouphug:

 

You are processing the unfathomable and doing so in the midst of complicated grief of many people.

 

No matter "where" you land spiritually after that, even if it is some form of traditonal Christianity, it is perfectly ok, understandable, and valid for you to feel the way you represent above.

 

If God exists in the way some people insist, he can take it and he has sufficient grace to trascend those queries. He has sufficient grace to offer that you don't have to "earn" through good thought or Biblical living. If you did, will, or do believe in a traditional Christianity, the passion of Jesus will cover, is covering, has covered you.

 

If you land somewhere else, know that you aren't alone there, either.

[Twigs]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  

[BakersDozen]

"I'm so so sorry for your pain. I do want to comment to this last part, though, because having watched an interview with one of the wives, I realized last week that the families themselves might be saying this, believing this. What of that? Your anger is understandable, but perhaps its best to feel it on your own behalf and not "own" it for others. They may not feel the same way; they may not be angry. To assume they are could be an error."

 

I'm sorry...I don't mean to put my feelings/beliefs on the families but the speakers - one in particular - presented the idea of those horrific deaths being part of a plan like it was gospel truth. No, actually he emphatically used gospel to present that "truth". I cannot fathom that. Throughout these last two days I along with many other people find ourselves stepping outside and looking toward where those men are waiting and I cannot, cannot, cannot believe this was ordained for their lives.

 

"If you can doubt there is a God, can you also doubt there is a hell?" Not quite to the point of not believing there is a God, just doubting what/who I believed God to be. I cannot believe there is no hell...not when things happen on this earth by people so horrible they cannot be fully human.

 

This is so confusing. I'm so confused...so stinking confused.

[acsnmama]

Is God supposed to save every person who has a job where they risk their life?

[Joanne]

Is God supposed to save every person who has a job where they risk their life?

 

 

How is this helpful or honoring her grief?

 

Let her process.

[milovany]

Throughout these last two days I along with many other people find ourselves stepping outside and looking toward where those men are waiting and I cannot, cannot, cannot believe this was ordained for their lives.

I totally understand your feelings. I really do. ((( Hugs )))

[milovany]

How is this helpful or honoring her grief?

 

Let her process.

I don't know ~ I think it's a valid question and *could* help her process her grief. That's how I took the question -- not in a blunt/unfeeling way, but in a realistic way. Are no firemen, soldiers, police officers, bodyguards, etc. supposed to die on the job? What are the ramifications of that? What would that mean for life in this world? And faith in this world? And God's role in this world? I think thinking through those questions can be helpful.

[Mrs Mungo]

How is this helpful or honoring her grief?

 

Let her process.

Personally, I think it is a good question. And it is part of the reason that I believe the way that I do. I have attended a lot of funerals for people who do the same job as my husband, who place themselves in the same danger. We have lost people who were honestly counted among our friends. Of course it hits close to home, but I think that question has to be part of the equation in order to process it. My sister's death was something I processed differently than the deaths of young soldiers. But, I think the question was one that I had to ask myself.

[MamaSheep]

I am so sorry for your loss, and pain and confusion. Your post goes right to my heart. Since the fall of 2011 both of my parents-in-law have passed away, as well as my grandfather. After 10 years (this time around) of hoping and waiting and making medical decisions, and trying unsuccessfully to adopt (nobody wants to give a child to a family where there is already a special needs child), we had three unexpected pregnancies between January 2012 and January 2013. All three ended in miscarriage. The day after this past Christmas I had a hemorrhagic stroke, shortly followed by the third miscarriage, which had to be surgically completed. It was discovered in the process that I have not one, but two genetic blood disorders that interact badly with pregnancy hormones, and it has been emphasized to me by my primary care physician, two OB/GYN doctors, my neurosurgeon, my hematologist, and various assorted other medical professionals, that having blown a hole in my brain once, it would be the utmost height of foolish deathwish-ness to ever attempt a pregnancy ever, ever again. Ever. And I have two children and a husband who need me here. 

 

I know that everyone reacts differently to sad, painful, hard things that happen in life, and I want to be clear here that I am NOT telling you how you "should" react. And I certainly do not intend to minimize what you are going through. Every scrap of pain and anger and confusion you feel is real, and legitimate, and valid. Heaven knows I have had my own recent bouts of all of those things. I'm not going to say, "I know how you feel," because anyone who has been even close knows that I don't. I can't. There is no possible freaking way that another person could. And when people say they do, you just want to slap their silly faces off. At least, if you're me you do. (But I know they mean well and try to take it the way they mean it.)

But I think I would like to share a few thoughts about what my experience has been like, just to add another perspective. I would ask that people respond somewhat gently if at all, as all of this is still very tender for me, and I really don't feel like arguing about any of it or having to defend my beliefs on this right now, in this context. (I would be okay with it if someone wanted to start a different thread to ask general questions about my general religious beliefs. I'm just not up to nit-picking the deeply personal applications of it in these areas right now. Thank you for understanding.)

 

For me, my faith has been a great help and comfort, and I have deeply appreciated the divine presence and concern that I have sensed through all of this. I think that part of it, for me, is that I come at it from an LDS perspective, which someone else described briefly earlier in the thread, and which includes a pre-mortal life, a mortal life, and a post-mortal life. To me, the babies I miscarried were full, complete spirit-people long before they were ever conceived. To me, they are real, living people who are waiting as eagerly for a reunion as I am. I believe wholeheartedly in the resurrection of mankind, and I have received divine assurance that they are MY babies, and will be MY children forever, that I will hold them, and raise them, and know them, and laugh and cry and play with them, and that in the eternity ahead of us our separation will seem brief, even though it seems so overwhelmingly massive right now. I have felt divine assurance that three (or possibly four--I think one of the pregnancies might have been twins, but it ended so soon...) of my children are safe, and well, and happy, and are watched over and loved not only by God, but by their grandparents and great-grandparents and other family members and friends who are there with them. They are not afraid, they are not alone, they are not hurting. And I will see them and know them when it is time. I don't have to worry that they will struggle with addictions, or abusive relationships, or hunger, or homelessness, or cruelty of any kind. They are okay. I believe this, and I believe I have experienced direct confirmation from God that this is so. I find that confirmation deeply comforting, and the source of much hope and peace.

 

To me, my in-laws and my grandfather (and my other friends and family who have passed) are also real, living people. They happen not to have bodies right now, and they happen to be in closer communication and association with each other than with those of us who are still mortal. But I kind of have fun wondering what my grandfather and my father-in-law, who never knew each other in life, might have to say to one another now that they are no longer old and ill. They are both quite the characters, and neither of them is much for pulling punches! I can just imagine my grandmother and mother-in-law (who both have opinions of their own!) trying to moderate their discussions. And to me, they are all still very much alive and with us, we just don't see or hear them right now. It IS legitimately difficult and painful for those of us left behind (for now). It's really been hard for dh and his brother not to have their parents here. But FIL wasn't really himself without his wife, and they are together now, and dh finds that very comforting. And when we're finished here, we'll join them all, and we'll have a nice long reminisce together. This, I believe. And again, although I miss these people who are important in my life, I truly don't believe that this life is all there is. I believe it is a brief intermission between an eternity before, and an eternity after, and I believe our relationships will continue, and because of the atonement and resurrection of Christ we will all be literally and physically together again relatively soon (relatively from an eternal perspective, though perhaps not from my current perspective as a mortal being). And that being the case, I cannot see death as a permanent situation, or as  the ultimate tragedy. Which, I think, also gives me peace and hope. 

 

But yes, another aspect to my belief is that God is omnipotent. I believe very deeply that God could have cured my in-laws' cancer; could have made my grandpa live forever (although I have to admit that as mortals go, 95 is a pretty good run, and he was ready to go, and it would have been pretty selfish of me to make him stick around just because *I* would miss him); could have kept my babies' hearts beating and caused them to develop into full-term, healthy children whom I could have hugged and kissed and taught and learned from and watched grow up and get married and have their own babies; could have cured my son's autism; could have prevented or repaired the genetic mutations that cause my blood not to function properly, and the physical problems that cause my infertility.  Did God cause those things to happen, or just allow them to happen? I don't know, and I don't see that it makes much difference. I think that if God created a system in which "stuff" can "just happen" that will then be "allowed", when God could have created a system in which nothing bad ever happened, then He is still the cause of the "stuff" that "just happened" within the system. And if God couldn't create a system in which nothing bad ever happened, then He's not actually omnipotent. But I believe God IS omnipotent, which leaves me with God caused it all--the cancer, the genetic mutations, the miscarriages--all of it--either directly or by setting up a system in which they could "just happen". 

And then...I also believe that God is not only all-knowing, but all-wise. This being the case, I believe that God knows pain, and anger, and sorrow, and fear, and frustration, and loneliness, and desperation. I believe that Christ suffered all of those things during his mortal incarnation, some of it naturally as part of his mortal experience, and some of it "supernaturally" during His atonement, when he descended below all things. But I believe that the Father knew those things even before that, before the world was created. I believe that God knows those things (and more) on a level we probably are not even capable of comprehending. And knowing them, he still created a world in which they can exist. I have to ask myself why. Which leads me to what are we here for? What is the purpose of life? I think that when God looks at the mortal experience He has given His children, God doesn't see it as something that was ever intended to be a pleasant, peaceful, restful vacation where every wish is granted, the sun always shines (unless we really want rain), and nobody is ever the least bit uncomfortable. I think if he had wanted to make such a creation he could have--but honestly, it seems a little bland and pointless to me. In the end, what would it really accomplish? And I think that the notion that God manipulates people by making "good" things happen only to people who are "good enough" or say the "right" prayer, and granting all their wishes while bad things happen to everyone else in order to make bad people want to be good--well, let's just say I don't buy it. I don't think God is so insecure that he needs to "purchase" our approval or worship by granting wishes, and I don't think God is petty. And I think that if God really wanted to just choose some people to put in heaven and let the others wind up in hell, then it would have made a lot more sense just to put them there in the first place--I'm not really sure what the point of a mortal phase of existence even is in that scenario.  (But I do understand that other people have other views on all of this, and I respect their right to believe as they choose). 
 

I believe that an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful God intentionally created a system in which pain, and anger, and sorrow and fear, and loneliness, and horror, and all of those things that we struggle with can exist--and so can pleasure, forgiveness, and joy, and love, and community, and effulgence, and triumph, and all the wonderful, delightful, amazing parts of life. But I don't think He did it for his own entertainment, or because he doesn't care about us. I think it was to teach us, and to show us who we really are, underneath it all, at the core of ourselves. I think we need to experience both the "wonderful" things and the "terrible" things in order to really understand either. I'm not sure heaven would really be heaven if we didn't understand what "joy" and "love" and "peace" really are, and I don't think we understand those unless we also understand "sorrow" and "abandonment", and "chaos", at least at some level. I don't know that I believe God directly steps in and causes each and every individual thing that ever happens to us, good or bad (though I'm convinced that He sometimes does intervene in a very direct, personal, and immediate manner). I do think some stuff "just happens" as part of the system in which we're living--a system which I think God created according to divinely instituted physical and moral laws, ultimately for our own good, even though it's hard and scary and painful.

 

My husband, too, would step in and die himself to save one of our children. I'm sure he wished at times he could do that during the miscarriages. He is a devoted and loving father. But he and I both agree that wrapping our kids in bubble wrap and making sure that nothing bad ever happened to them (if that were even possible) would not be good for them. It would stunt their development and keep them infants forever. They will learn to be capable adults by falling down, and dropping things, and bleeding, and sticking pins in themselves, and getting muddy, and coping with other children who are throwing wood chips at the playground and knocking other kids down, and learning to forgive themselves and others and get on with life, and climbing up things that are too high, and doing things that frighten them...and all that hard, painful stuff. We don't sit on the sidelines and laugh, and we're not gazing off in some other direction because we've lost interest, we're just allowing them to have the experiences that will grow them and teach them. And when they bleed, and cry, and break, we hold them, and comfort them, and show them how to get through it. Sometimes we even create learning experiences for them (like home school) and insist that they complete their learning tasks even when they become angry or cry over the lessons. I really believe that God is doing that on a much larger, grander, eternal scale that we don't really understand. And yes, some things that we have to do, or face, or live through make us angry, and confused, and resentful and we don't understand how God could make us do it. But that's how my son feels about fractions. He's sure they were invented just to torture children. And it's how my daughter feels about reading (but she's getting better at it with practice!). 

 

And one of the reasons I believe this is that I can look back at this point in my life at things that I've experienced, and that I've watched others experience (and the list I gave earlier is not the only stuff I'm talking about, it's just some of the recent "big" stuff), and I can see how those things have changed me, and shaped me, and taught me. I can see that I am stronger, and more compassionate, more mature, and that I SEE things differently, and understand the real value of things differently (but not yet fully, I can tell) having had those experiences than I would be if I had not. I can SEE some of the change points, and some of the connections, and even some of the reasons. I can see how the lessons learned are becoming increasingly useful (even fractions) and are opening doors to further lessons still (many of them not as painful to learn, because I see things I would not have seen before due to past "lessons"). And that strengthens my belief in a loving God who really does have my best interests at heart even when it doesn't seem that way to me as a "child". And it brings me peace, and comfort, and hope that I will continue to see more reasons, and become more "adult" in an eternal sense, as time goes on. 

 

And I believe that I have experienced God's presence during those difficult, painful, angry times in some very profound ways. And that presence has been sympathetic, and supportive, and comforting, and has "held" me close and really understood, in ways that nobody else could, what I am going through. I have experienced flashes of insight, and feelings of peace that I know did not come from inside me. And even during the times I have wept, and screamed, and figuratively kicked God in the shins and beat my little child-fists against him, and told him I hated him, and it was NOT FAIR, and I could NOT DO IT, and how could he give me this only to take it away again, I have felt that He understood, and cared for me deeply, and accepted my feelings, and would not hold it against me, and that he would give me answers when it was time, and there would be a time, and it would eventually all make sense, and when I am grown up I'll "get it" in ways I don't see now. And for me, having God with me in the painful, angry times has been a beautiful, comforting, faith-affirming thing.

But that's where I am NOW, not where I have always been. And I know that this is just MY experience, not everyone's. (And I don't know why that is. I certainly don't think it's because I'm "better" somehow than people who have a different experience, or that God loves me more. And again, I'm not saying that this is how other people "should" experience the hard times, or how I have ALWAYS experienced hard times, just how it's been for me at this stage in my life.). For me, my faith and my God have been profoundly "good" and helpful in dealing with the deaths of loved ones. I feel like what I have gained is eternal, and what I have lost is temporary. HARD. Very, very hard. Very, very sad. I miss them terribly. But still, only temporary. 

But that's not where you are. You are somewhere else in your journey, and that's okay. You are where you need to be, asking questions you need to ask, and I don't see anything wrong with that. I just thought I'd share another perspective in case it helped someone in some way. For some people, like me, the idea of God being with me in this situation is a comfort, and that's probably why people say things like that. For some people, like you, it's not comforting, and I'm sorry. I hope that you are able to find peace and hope somewhere, though. Give it time. For what it's worth (and I know it's probably not much), I will be thinking of you.