OUTLINING: Is it over-rated and obsolete? MCT:Yes, IEW & WWS:No

[fluffybunny]

This is what MCT says at the back of Essay Voyage: "...I do not recommend (outlines and rough drafts). ... Computer technology has made some of the traditional approach obsolete. Why hand write notes when you can type on a laptop? Most word processors have outline processors built in. Times have changed, and for the better." :ohmy:

 

My son only types: he is a fast typist but has trouble with handwriting. He hates outlining, especially for writing stories; he says he just wants to 'write it'. A while ago I asked what experienced homeschoolers would do with a child who argued about outlining. Everyone seemed to be saying that I should make him outline and make him follow it.

 

But most famous writers say they just allowed stories to write themselves without an outline, or even knowledge of where they were going. CS Lewis and L'Engle are some who say they did this. I never wrote outlines in school, yet English was my best subject, and I did an English Major at Uni. Would I now be an Oxford don if I had outlined instead? ;)

 

So, what is the big deal with outlining, and does it only work for writing non-fiction essays? Is it obsolete as MCT says??

[IrishMum]

:lurk5:

[WishboneDawn]

I think that if it gets in the way of creative writing, let it go. Creative writing is something I leave to my kids and don't interfere with.

 

For papers outling is an organizational tool that you really shouldn't skip. If you're writing a persuasive essay you need a structure and an ordered approach and that's hard to acheive, even for experienced writers, by just writing. Outlines are paths through the forest that keep you from getting offtrack or lost.

[TraceyS/FL]

Well, I am in school and have had multiple classes that required me to turn in an outline and my rough drafts. I hate it because I don't write that way, but at least I knew how to do it.

 

Oh,and teaching them to paraphrase is important.... A skill my current younger classmates seem to not have. Ugh.

[katiejane]

My son is doing a foundational university course and they have required him to hand in an outline for his major essay. I guess you can say I am glad we didn't skip that stuff. ;) He got 9/10. In saying that I would not require outlines for creative writing projects in younger children. I think it would disrupt the flow of their writing.

[G5052]

It depends. If the child can outline reasonably in their head and come up with a solid essay with well-reasoned arguments, ditch the outlining.

 

On the other hand if their writing is disorganized and doesn't come to a point, they need to outline.

 

My own children outlined until around 8th or 9th grade, and then they didn't seem to need it any more. Sometimes they'll jot down a rough outline before they sit down to type, but not more than that.

 

I still outline if I am in a hurry and pretty much have to go with my first version. Otherwise, no.

 

And handwritten rough drafts. I let mine drop that when they could prove that they were fluent with a word processor, which happened around 6th grade or so.

[Heathermomster]

DS has organizational issues with writing. The KWOs with IEW have been extremely helpful; however, I place KWOs into a separate category from the topic or full sentence outline of a history or science text.

 

The full sentence or topic outline is used to gain understanding of written material and for study purposes. At least, that's how we do it. DS types the traditional outline and uses an IPAD program called Inspiration, which is mind mapping software that converts the mind map into an outline.

 

I consider outlining an essential skill for higher academics. That's just me though...Do what works best for your family. Some students mentally organize, internalize, and remember information differently, and that's OK.

[Paige]

I think it is a tool that should be taught to all beginning writers for fiction and nonfiction. They should learn it because it may be asked of them later and because it helps them to stay focused and organized. There's not much I hate more than a rambling paper full of circular arguments that don't say much. It also is really helpful to be able to outline other people's material so you can see their structure. Sometimes when you see the structure clearly it helps to see what makes it so good or not so good, and then you can apply it to your own writing.

 

Once the student is a more proficient writer, however, and has developed his or her own voice and style, I think it is safe to drop outlining if he or she wishes. It's a useful tool to know, but a good writer should have learned lots of useful tools and can pick and choose what is most helpful to him or her at the time. I am not clear on if MCT is discouraging all outlining or just handwritten ones. I don't think it matters whether you take notes on paper or on a computer. I make my DS do a rough draft on paper because it is handwriting practice, but I won't do that forever. I do not believe that any student should expect to turn in a first draft. You can always make improvements.

[Luckymama]

That quote from MCT sounds like he doesn't think handwritten outlines are important, that one can use the outlining choice on Word (or similar) to automate the 1. a. b. c. portion of outlining.

[TraceyS/FL]

The fact that I have to turn in rough drafts kills me - I actually calculate my grade out and see if I can skip the assignment.... I'm a last minute writer, and never really even do a rough draft for the types of papers I am doing (non-creative writing stuff). This quarter my entire grade for a class (Professional Communication) is based on turning in parts of the project weekly. This one I am doing ok with because 1, I can't skip them and pass, 2, it is a business proposal and I have never written in this format before. The same for my customer service class, I have weekly assignments related to the project - but in this case they will help build the final version of the project, they aren't the exact stuff you will just cut and paste. I have to do a paper (yesterday) today on the culture of my company choice and how that relates to their Customer Service.

 

Basically, this quarter it does not seem like "busy work".

 

I can somewhat understand it in my case because I am going to a more targeted college that caters to people going back to school while working, and might have been out of school for awhile. Having assignments due along the way probably helps keep the majority of them on tract during the 11 week quarter. That said, it has been torture to do peer reviews on some of their assignments - I don't consider myself a "good writer", but dang, my 8yo knows more about paragraph construction than some of them.

 

And the lady last quarter that said that taking 1 word out of a sentence made it an ok sentence to copy without citing.... well, grammarly had her at 125 plagiarism do-hickeys.

 

Basically, it is not a skill I would skip outright because you just don't know what they will encounter in the future. Having a decent amount of exposure can ease the, "You want me to do WHAT??????" moments in class (which, could not possibly be related to the fact that I am 44 and a homeschooler that hates busy work!! LOL!)

 

Personally I prefer the inspiration/kidspiration mindmap way that turns it into an outline.

[Penelope]

I think it's a very useful skill. I think most people would do better organizing their thoughts in some form before they write. Once more proficient maybe they do it naturally in their heads and dont need to write things down. But even C.S. Lewis didn't start out as C.S. Lewis The Writer. He wasn't writing Mere Christianity at the age of ten; he had years of rigorous education before that. I on't know if he had to turn in rough drafts. :p

 

I think turning in outlines and rough drafts shouldn't be required by the end of high school if they are fairly proficient by that point. The idea is that you learn tools for organizing your writing and also for studying non-fiction text. Once you understand the tools, you can use whatever tools you want as long as your writing product is good.

 

I have heard MCT speak about this. I didn't get the idea he says not to teach outlining, just not to harp on it exclusive to other methods of organization (Idon't even know what all of these are called, but he talked about flow charts and other sorts of visual organizers) and not to focus on "outline this week, rough draft next week" process. I agree with this as that approach drove me crazy. I did use outlines but also more visual organizers, and my structure would get revised as I wrote. Plus I did not like being "babysat" during the process as I didn't need that by that point. However, some kids might benefit from the scaffolding so I think tailoring it to the child makes sense, until they are ready to be independent.

 

I kind of cringed when I first read TWTM and I saw outlining several times each week for four years. I don't think the process is so difficult that it needs that much practice. However, once I heard SWB say in a writing lecture that the point is not only to outline and to see how other writers organize their writing, but to see how many different types of paragraphs are organized, as in the topoi practiced in WWS. Eventually as they are reading they will recognize these and will be able to craft their own writing more easily. (At least that was my take on what she said, and it made sense to me). Of course, as I said, it's also a useful study tool and note-taking tool.

[Aslana]

I know some disagree, but I feel teaching them to outline, freewrite, bubble write, etc... are all useful skills. In two of my classes, I had to turn in an outline for one and record a speak. Incidentally, the topic of my speech was also the topic for my written paper in the other class.

 

Having that outline already done cut the writing time way down. I'm a major free-writer. I just put pen to paper and write. But I am also able to outline clearly and concisely in several different ways. I will be teaching mine, this year, how to do all those things and more. She won't like it but she will learn it. And when she dual enrolls, it WILL come in handy.

[kiana]

Well, I am in school and have had multiple classes that required me to turn in an outline and my rough drafts. I hate it because I don't write that way, but at least I knew how to do it.

 

Oh,and teaching them to paraphrase is important.... A skill my current younger classmates seem to not have. Ugh.

 

 

I hate it as well, but one of the big reasons that this is required is because of recycling papers from other people.

[ElaineJ]

With a co-op class I'm taught last term, I outlined the kids papers that they turned in and gave them the outline when I returned their papers. It helped them to see what content they had actually communicated. I think it is very easy for young writers to use a lot of words but say very little, and having the outline helps prevent that. It also reveals whether or not you've sufficiently supported your points with evidence and analysis. I sort of see it as a diagnostic. If the kid is very opposed to writing from an outline, you could have them do this for themselves post- composition and see if they've accomplished their purpose before giving you the paper. Elaine

[Arcadia]

Outlining as a skill is useful in a variety of areas. Think about a to-do list or grocery list. It is an informal outline, How about reading a textbook or reading materials and making your own study notes for the SAT/AP or any other exams. That is also outlining. If anyone is taking part in a debate or writing an argumentative essay, there is an outline somewhere either in the head, in the note cards, computer, paper. Even writing a resume and curriculum vitae are outlines of some sort. For solving math or science problems, some people would be outlining the steps in their head.

[Aslana]

Oh and one of my arguments against doing the outline on the computer? I HATE word format. None of my professors will accept Open Office format (even though it is free and can be converted into word). I hate how Word auto-formats things and ruins how you have your outline set up as. I never follow their auto-format and turn it off because of how persnickety Word is.

 

I'd much rather write it out, then type it in as I have it written. Helps me to see my errors much better, easier, and faster, than just typing it in Word and leaving it.

 

And yes, one of the reasons they do require it now is to show you actually did the work rather than copying someone else's paper. I was amazed by how many of my fellow students actually thought this was okay, that it wasn't plagiarizing if they just changed a few words and that they did not need to quote people in order to avoid plagiarizing. I tutor an older lady and she recently received feedback from her professor that told her to "cut out the quotes" because almost half her paper was nothing but quotations rather than paraphrasing or original thought.

 

All things I told her she could not do in order to write a good paper. She did it anyway, emailed me asking me what the professor meant, and my answer to her was "I told you so". So, I see teaching my kid how to paraphrase, write an outline, and how to quote appropriately as a public service. :D

[RootAnn]

But most famous writers say they just allowed stories to write themselves without an outline, or even knowledge of where they were going. CS Lewis and L'Engle are some who say they did this. I never wrote outlines in school, yet English was my best subject, and I did an English Major at Uni. Would I now be an Oxford don if I had outlined instead? ;)

 

Have you ever seen this little tidbit about JK Rowling's "outline" of one of the Harry Potter books? An "outline" doesn't have to be I. A. 1. 2. B. 1. 2. 3. II. A. ....

 

My dd#2 loves to write stories. She sometimes gets to a point where she doesn't "know where the story is going." It really helps to have a general outline in your head for fiction & non-fiction writing. (DD#2's current story started as a one page just-the-facts ma'am & she's now fleshing it out where one paragraph turns into an entire chapter.) When I wrote essays for college papers, scholarship apps, and the like, I would sketch out using a few phrases what I wanted to cover. Then, I could flesh them out and move them around as necessary. I never did "outlines" like SWB advocates. But getting the ideas out (written) in some sort of form you can see & work with IS important, IMO.

[TraceyS/FL]

 

I hate it as well, but one of the big reasons that this is required is because of recycling papers from other people.

 

HA. I hadn't even thought of it from that standpoint! :p

 

What I'd probably do if required to hand in an outline and rough draft is to work backwards. I'd write my paper how I wanted to write it. Then create my outline from it.

 

I heard MCT speak and he did point blank say that he doesn't think outlines and note cards are necessary.

 

In the perfect world, that is actually what I'd do.... but as a single mom homeschooling - I rarely have time to write the paper early in the term while doing the other assignments due.

With a co-op class I'm taught last term, I outlined the kids papers that they turned in and gave them the outline when I returned their papers. It helped them to see what content they had actually communicated. I think it is very easy for young writers to use a lot of words but say very little, and having the outline helps prevent that. It also reveals whether or not you've sufficiently supported your points with evidence and analysis. I sort of see it as a diagnostic. If the kid is very opposed to writing from an outline, you could have them do this for themselves post- composition and see if they've accomplished their purpose before giving you the paper. Elaine

 

I really like this idea - and last quarter we had an assignment of comparing and contrasting the US Healthcare System to another countries. In addition to just cutting and pasting stuff from her references, the one I peer reviewed was all over the place. There was no cohesiveness to it, and I wish I had thought to do an outline for her to show her what I failed at being able to say. Her response to me was she had never gotten below an A on all her papers in 2 years of school - the instructor at least told me my feedback to her was spot on. I hate to wish bad grades on anyone, but that paper was a "hot mess".

 

Oh and one of my arguments against doing the outline on the computer? I HATE word format. None of my professors will accept Open Office format (even though it is free and can be converted into word). I hate how Word auto-formats things and ruins how you have your outline set up as. I never follow their auto-format and turn it off because of how persnickety Word is.

 

I'd much rather write it out, then type it in as I have it written. Helps me to see my errors much better, easier, and faster, than just typing it in Word and leaving it.

 

And yes, one of the reasons they do require it now is to show you actually did the work rather than copying someone else's paper. I was amazed by how many of my fellow students actually thought this was okay, that it wasn't plagiarizing if they just changed a few words and that they did not need to quote people in order to avoid plagiarizing. I tutor an older lady and she recently received feedback from her professor that told her to "cut out the quotes" because almost half her paper was nothing but quotations rather than paraphrasing or original thought.

 

All things I told her she could not do in order to write a good paper. She did it anyway, emailed me asking me what the professor meant, and my answer to her was "I told you so". So, I see teaching my kid how to paraphrase, write an outline, and how to quote appropriately as a public service. :D

 

Interestingly in my "science classes" - we were told we in no way were having original thoughts since it was a science based paper. Basically, EVERYTHING should be cited. However, in future classes that weren't science based, they gave us some slack room and didn't want us citing so much. It was hard after the science classes to relax and not cite something.

 

We had a couple of students that did copy and pastes from Wikipedia in our discussions - even though as you entered them they point blank said to not use it as a reference. It might have helped their cause if they hadn't copied the blue links when they pasted.....

 

I hate words auto format. No, you are NOT smarter than me. HMPH.

[Aslana]

Interestingly in my "science classes" - we were told we in no way were having original thoughts since it was a science based paper. Basically, EVERYTHING should be cited. However, in future classes that weren't science based, they gave us some slack room and didn't want us citing so much. It was hard after the science classes to relax and not cite something.

 

We had a couple of students that did copy and pastes from Wikipedia in our discussions - even though as you entered them they point blank said to not use it as a reference. It might have helped their cause if they hadn't copied the blue links when they pasted.....

 

I hate words auto format. No, you are NOT smarter than me. HMPH.

 

 

You are correct but I suppose by "original thought" what I meant was :use your OWN words, not necessarily paraphrase (which IS just reversing words in a sentence or re-writing the sentence). I want something stated in words that explain how YOU interpret that thing. For many papers---like those science papers--this is very difficult to do. But for everything else? The only excuse not to put things in your own words (as opposed to paraphrasing--which, now that I think of it, still requires a citation), is pure laziness.

 

My tutored lady could not use her own words. She paraphrased and quoted every single thing. Which, as I said, still requires citations. Using your own words do not and if you are good at it, it could make or break your paper.

 

But I do disagree with your teacher a little bit. It's true that there are no real original thoughts in science, but it is possible to have an original thought in a science based paper, you just have to work at it a little harder. :D

[Spetzi]

I didn't read every response, but wanted to mention you might want to try mind mapping to graphically organize thoughts from large ideas to smaller, chronologically, etc. I think organizing thoughts, facts, characters, scenes, are all important, but there are many ways to put it down so it makes sense without using traditional outlining.

[TraceyS/FL]

You are correct but I suppose by "original thought" what I meant was :use your OWN words, not necessarily paraphrase (which IS just reversing words in a sentence or re-writing the sentence). I want something stated in words that explain how YOU interpret that thing. For many papers---like those science papers--this is very difficult to do. But for everything else? The only excuse not to put things in your own words (as opposed to paraphrasing--which, now that I think of it, still requires a citation), is pure laziness.

 

My tutored lady could not use her own words. She paraphrased and quoted every single thing. Which, as I said, still requires citations. Using your own words do not and if you are good at it, it could make or break your paper.

 

But I do disagree with your teacher a little bit. It's true that there are no real original thoughts in science, but it is possible to have an original thought in a science based paper, you just have to work at it a little harder. :D

 

That last healthcare paper was tough for me to cite, I was totally comfortable in the areas that I had taken various sources and formulated my own thoughts on it - but then I would struggle with not having used that reference elsewhere, and my reference would not appear on the list... but yet I used what I learned from it. I did rarely ever use actual quotes or paraphrasing, but it has been an interesting aspect of school I wouldn't have thought about before. I tried to stick to facts and figures for cited things, and weave those together into my own "big picture". It was easier for me than the one I reviewed though, I was comparing Brazil to the US and didn't have a single "big media" article to use, just journal articles on Brazil and my own knowledge of the US. That other lady was doing the US & Canada, and only had "big media" articles in her list. We have been talking in another class the last couple of days about information literacy, and that is indeed a skill I see in need of help in some classmates. And, not even from the aspect of knowing not to pick wikipedia, but overall how to choose qualified references.

 

Trust me, we were Pharmacy Tech/Med Assistants/Transcription/______ students in A&P researching and writing about a condition, unless we had it - we didn't have much to bring in the way of original thoughts! In my case, I used a condition my daughter has and so I did have the ability to interject my own experiences. But otherwise, the impact of estrogen and the puberty cycle on brain development in a girl with Turner Syndrome.... nope, I got nutin original to add :p

[mama27]

I didn't focus much on outlining with my 17 yo. In Feb of this year she started cosmetology classes and they require notes and outlines ALL the bloomin time!!! I did not think for one second that would be something she would have to do there.

So, yea, I'll be covering it with the rest of my kids.

[redsquirrel]

Creative and persuasive writing are two different beasts. I don't really think you can compare their processes. They are two different skill sets.

 

I think outlining is a very useful skill for persuasive writing. Is it one that all writers find useful? No. But, like many skills, it is a good one for new writers to learn. If they never learn it, how will they know if can be useful?

[Professormom]

 

 

I hate it as well, but one of the big reasons that this is required is because of recycling papers from other people.

 

This is so true! The first university class I taught, two of the young men copied off of EACH OTHER! ON A PAPER! My first thought was, "Seriously, what have y'all been smoking!" Lol.

 

To the lady who is back at school... Kudos to you! It stinks to have to do all of that stuff that seems so remedial, but my guess is that your instructors don't want to have to wade through a pile of garbage papers at the end and then have to fail the majority of the class at which point, you have every student who wrote a crummy paper coming in to tell you how unfair you are. (Yup, I have had that happen too, ;-). Even good rubrics don't help because people don't actually READ them.

 

Can you hear the sarcasm in my voice? :-)

 

Anyway, I agree with the PP who said let them do creative writing as they will... There is much more leeway there. But, unless they are going to only do creative writing for the rest of their lives (and there is really no way to know that at this point, they need to know how to solidly structure their writing. Plus, it is a terrific way to break down the work of others to see how they build their story, case, arguments, etc.

 

So knowing how and practicing over the course of a year or so is a really good idea. In a perfect world no one would require a college student to turn in an outline, but at least if your child knows how to so it well, they will be easy points! =D>

 

 

[linders]

I'm a fan of outlining. But outlining is really just a way of capturing/brainstorming ideas and organizing them before you write the nitty gritty. With that in mind, for my work reports (and our Christmas letter), I often sit at the keyboard and just write all my ideas in a series of bullets. No grammar, no formatting, just think about what I want to say. Then I sort the ideas into groups (the groups are my level one outline), then sort within groups (my level two outline). In doing the sorting, I often stumble across a missing component to add. Could your DS at least do that?

[happycc]

Outlining...I did lots of it in middle school. I remember the teacher requiring us to hand it in along with the rough draft and final draft all stapled together.

When my older kids were in middle school, I remember outlining beginning around 5th grade or so.

By high school, outlines were helpful to write papers. I don;t remember having to turn those in though. We did have to hand in a rough draft along with the final draft.

College...we had a rough draft to turn in and then a final draft. I made relatively loose outline. Basically what on earth I will write for the first paragraph, then the second paragraph and so on and some thoughts/reasons for each paragraph main topic basically.

My outlining skills that I learned in middle school did help with notetaking for college classes.

In EMT, CNA and Nursing school I had to make outlines to prepare for presentations. They helped with planning my powerpoints. While in Nursing school, I remember making outlines to write my chemistry, biochemistry and microbiology research papers.

 

Yep.....I can't imagine life without outlining at this point which to me is a basic list of what you write/say and when.

[LivingHope]

Here is a Classical Writing blog post about outlining: http://www.classicalwriting.com/blog/2012/07/26/outlining/

[Hedgehogs4]

I think that in general, as a society, we have become very tolerant of shabbily constructed prose, and this would lead to the thinking that outlining and planning is obsolete.

 

I do not think MCT's comment means that outlining is obsolete, as a pp pointed out, but that there are new-fangled tools to assist in the process.

I think that children and beginning writers simply cannot know how to organize their thoughts, but the need to be taught. That said, I do not believe that the classic roman-numeral outline is the only way to organize and prepare one's composition, but skills do need to be utilized that will help a student learn to organize, classify, and prioritize what should be included in a composition.

[Haiku]

IMHO, all the new-fangled, modern, hip curricula, regardless of subject, tend to claim that they have a way to get the learning done without the drudgery of doing the work. Fads come and go, but the classic way of doing things stands the test of time. A word-processing outline program doesn't teach you what outlining does: organizing your thoughts to write a cohesive paper. There's really no substitute for just doing the work.

 

Tara

[JDoe]

Creative and persuasive writing are two different beasts. I don't really think you can compare their processes. They are two different skill sets.

I think maybe you meant to refer to writing for entertainment, and writing for persuasion, as I find that when you write to persuade someone (which is what I do) it does require an extraordinary amount of creative thinking FIRST.

 

Brainstorming and "mindmapping" are tools I find useful in the creative thought process

 

Outlining I find useful in after I separate the wheat from the chaff of the above process (once the creative process is finished)