Common core in a nut shell for those interested. You may be alarmed!

[La Texican]

http://youtu.be/scxS9pAv9ps

 

Here's the Walt Disney version (link above). It was called "Education for Death", about Hitler youth in the classroom.

 

Anyway, I think Common Core is a spine. You know what a spine is, like an outline of the topics you should cover in a timeframe. Locally, they will still be able to choose any brand curriculum they want, not that there's that many large scale curriculum companies for the schools to choose from. I've read online that the same companies sell the textbooks that sell the standardized tests. It was in the comments section of the New York Times that whenever they change the standardized tests, they buy new textbooks, and companies like Pearson and MacGraw and such sell both the texts and the tests.

And look! If you want to write a textbook then you may:

http://www.gillmacmillan.ie/help/authors/interested-in-writing-a-school-textbook

 

The common core website has been online, and even up until they finalized it they were asking for suggestions and feedback from the public. It looks to me like a spine. They just want to make sure that no one is getting shortchanged. Sadly, it will take more than a syllabus outline. Alas I also worry that they will continue to confuse minimum standards with a glass ceiling, that kids who should have a harder education still probably won't be able to get it in a public school. Really, it depends on the teacher, parents, and students to make it work. Moving, voting with your feet, doesn't really get you a better curriculum (since there's only a few publishers), it gets you a different set of neighbors, teachers, and principal. They still teach to the same few standardized tests, and have been for years.

 

Yeah, I just started reading all this educational stuff when I had a baby, and just haven't really stopped. Looking around, at least I'm not the only one.

 

 

[stripe]

I don't see how this conversation can take place without considering how school choice would raise standards. One of the things free markets do best is to raise standards. One thing the federal government does best is lower standards. I guess I'll go get my tin-foil hat and get back to work.

Are you willing to feed your kids formula or give them prescription medicine from China? The free market does not always raise standards. Not everyone can magically judge medicine safety by peering at a pill.

 

There have been studies that show not all charter schools produce better "results" than public schools, including recent scandals involving K-12.

 

I'll skip discussion of anything financial, and whether the motive towards profits impeded logical thinking or concern for customers.

[Way2blessed]

I am taking it you don't live in Mississippi.

 

I feel as an American, I should care about the education of all the children in this country, not just my neighbors and those in my local school district.

 

You have knowledge of the inequity of the education system across the US from one state, county, city, subdivision to another? Mississippi is the bottom of the country in education. As far as caring for others, yes, I think it does mean that you help guide people on how to be better. If a loved one needed a job, you should help them if you have the knowledge to. They can accept your advice if they want, or walk away. The states had the same option.

 

As someone from Mississippi, let me assure you that we do not want or need you idea of "caring". Mississippi is at the bottom of education, how so? If you mean the state's score on standardized tests are at the bottom, that may be, but whose standards are they testing? Want to know what category Mississippi is consistently in the top? Charitable giving--despite being one of the poorer states. I would think that Mississippi has its standards in the right place. But maybe that is because I have actually visited every state in the union and have seen the way that other states live to know first hand that much of what is said about Mississippi and the South in general is largely untrue.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I want freedom returned to teachers in the classroom. CC or any other standard shouldn't mean a fourth grade teacher can no longer design her class around the needs and strength of her students. I keep hearing from some of my friends (teachers) that they are forced to follow scripted curriculum to the letter and no longer do little things, like bringing the baby chic to K classroom unless they can in writing justify and demonstrate how it toes to their script.

 

 

I am pretty sure this lack of freedom for teachers is only due to unreasonable local school districts thinking that that is the only way to implement minimum standards. Unfortunately, local school districts can be stupid when it comes to making decisions as to how to implement something.

 

I do hope that CC changes the unrealistic pass rate of 100% which I think most states have gotten waivers for. I think the 100% pass rate expectation in the past caused many school districts to implement ridiculous things like reading from a script as well as the states dumbing down the standards for NCLB.

[dereksurfs]

I've been curious about why some folks in general object to the CC, especially families who homeschool. So I've read most of these posts. I think this thread gives me a bit more of an understanding now. The main thing I'm gathering here from those opposed is that it is deeply rooted in a larger paradigm or worldview. Basically this is the worldview which dislikes/distrusts the Gov't to oversee anything (e.g. immigration, gun control, healthcare, education, etc...). So if that is the premise upon which 'most' everything is based then this is a bad thing. More Big Gov't = Bad, less = Good. I can at least see where the strong ideas/biases are derived.

 

Now how about any potential negative effects for homeschoolers? I don't see any negatives for homeschool curriculum. Basically some companies will attempt to comply while others simply remain as they are. Then parents still decide what to use or not use based on what is deemed best. Ultimately most students will sit for some standards based test to get into to college. But there are many ways to get there via a variety of standard or non standard methods. Would those homeschoolers who actively avoid CC do so based on this same premise, like conscientious objectors? Basically its the Gov't trying to meddle in something they don't belong? Therefore I will not use any CC compliant materials. Is this the rationale?

[Roadrunner]

 

 

I am pretty sure this lack of freedom for teachers is only due to unreasonable local school districts thinking that that is the only way to implement minimum standards. Unfortunately, local school districts can be stupid when it comes to making decisions as to how to implement something.

 

I do hope that CC changes the unrealistic pass rate of 100% which I think most states have gotten waivers for. I think the 100% pass rate expectation in the past caused many school districts to implement ridiculous things like reading from a script as well as the states dumbing down the standards for NCLB.

 

 

That's it. It has nothing to do with standards. CA always had standards and this madness isn't related to CC. CC reading list is excellent and math tests (I haven't seen new textbooks) are much better than STAR samples. It's how districts are implementing everything. I don't understand why so many principals have simply gone mad. They don't seem to trust teachers they are hiring. It's sad, because our school has excellent teachers and given the freedom, they could do so much more. One of them used to have her class built around mythology. She can't do that anymore. It's not CC that's going to make a difference, but how we implement it. That's what nobody yet seems to know in our district.

[Arcadia]

It's not CC that's going to make a difference, but how we implement it. That's what nobody yet seems to know in our district.

 

My school district just had parent information night about how common core implementation will affect the students. School districts around me are having parent information nights last month or this month.

[Roadrunner]

 

 

My school district just had parent information night about how common core implementation will affect the students. School districts around me are having parent information nights last month or this month.

 

 

Anything interesting? or radically different?

 

[Arcadia]

Anything interesting? or radically different?

 

My school districts meetings are usually long drawn soap operas. I'm waiting for the minutes to be posted. I'll updated if there is anything interesting.

[Roadrunner]

 

 

My school districts meetings are usually long drawn soap operas. I'm waiting for the minutes to be posted. I'll updated if there is anything interesting.

 

Sorry for derailing this tread, but do you knw if Gunn High in Palo Alto is really as good as its reputation?

[Arcadia]

Sorry for derailing this tread, but do you knw if Gunn High in Palo Alto is really as good as its reputation?

 

 

There were four suicides in 2009. Also if you look at the API report breakdown by race, it is a very telling story for both Gunn High and Palo Alto High.

 

ETA:

This would interest you if you have not seen the local news

"Improperly assigned teachers a problem" (http://www.sfgate.com/education/article/Improperly-assigned-teachers-a-problem-4303359.php)

"California's ban on fees for school supplies cause confusion" (http://www.mercurynews.com/education/ci_22702203/new-california-school-law-that-bans-fees-causes)

[Heidi]

Abigail, you are really missing the point. Actually read what I posted.

 

 

I did. I even took notes. Please, tell me where I made an inappropriate, arbitrary use of Nazi comparison? I was explaining to Mergath that totilatarian governments use education as propaganda and gave Nazi Gemany as an example. I even specifically stated that CC has nothing to do with it. I was stating facts about Nazi Germany. Your article even said the law does not apply when discussing totilitarian governments, which I was.

 

However, since you missed my point, and missed the point of your own article, I will give you an example of an inappropriate use of Nazi comparison and we'll see if it actually kills this thread. Here goes: "You remind me a lot of Hitler. He was against learning from history too."

 

That is a disgusting comparison and I truly don't mean it, but do you see the difference? I thought your accusation of me was pretty rude.

[dereksurfs]

I did. I even took notes. Please, tell me where I made an inappropriate, arbitrary use of Nazi comparison? I was explaining to Mergath that totilatarian governments use education as propaganda and gave Nazi Gemany as an example. I even specifically stated that CC has nothing to do with it. I was stating facts about Nazi Germany. Your article even said the law does not apply when discussing totilitarian governments, which I was.

...

 

 

Abigail, maybe you don't realize it when you're saying it. But when you talk about CC and then reference Nazis like this it comes across as inflamatory language implying a relationship exists at the very least. Similarities are drawn. Does that make any sense? I mean why bring up Nazi Germany into the conversation at all if not to imply a correlation? Maybe you use this language to set off 'Alarm Bells' and really stir people up so that they are as *concerned* as you are? I don't really know. It seems like while you try to not explicity compare the two initially you end up doing so using this slippery slope logic. The CC is basically leading us down a path, one step closer to totalitarian gov't mind control where all freedoms are lost just like Nazi Germany.... Is that really where you think the CC is taking us? To mind controlled Americans, just like brainwashed Nazi Germans? Will that be the outcome if we're not careful? That required purposeful intent and careful planning on the part of Hitler. Is this similar to what America's leadership could be planning now with the CC?

 

"Totilatarian governments DO use national curriculum as a propaganda tool to "brainwash" their citizens. Research Nazi Germany curriculum. It didn't seem to raise any red flags for them either, btw.

I'm NOT saying that is what CC is about bc it's not. However, we should be vigilant that we don't let go of our liberties, and CC is just another step towards centralized control. Every step away from the Constitution should be a cause of alarm, at least for those that wear their foil hats every day at high noon."

[Alessandra]

I've been curious about why some folks in general object to the CC, especially families who homeschool. So I've read most of these posts. I think this thread gives me a bit more of an understanding now. The main thing I'm gathering here from those opposed is that it is deeply rooted in a larger paradigm or worldview. Basically this is the worldview which dislikes/distrusts the Gov't to oversee anything (e.g. immigration, gun control, healthcare, education, etc...). So if that is the premise upon which 'most' everything is based then this is a bad thing. More Big Gov't = Bad, less = Good. I can at least see where the strong ideas/biases are derived.

 

 

Well said!

[Heidi]

 

 

Abigail, maybe you don't realize it when you're saying it. But when you talk about CC and then reference Nazis like this it comes across as inflamatory language implying a relationship exists at the very least. Similarities are drawn. Does that make any sense? I mean why bring up Nazi Germany into the conversation at all if not to imply a correlation? Maybe you use this language to set off 'Alarm Bells' and really stir people up so that they are as *concerned* as you are? I don't really know. It seems like while you try to not explicity compare the two initially you end up doing so using this slippery slope logic. The CC is basically leading us down a path, one step closer to totalitarian gov't mind control where all freedoms are lost just like Nazi Germany.... Is really where you think the CC is taking us? To mind controlled Americans, just like brainwashed Nazi Germans? Will that be the outcome if we're not careful? That required purposeful intent and careful planning on the part of Hitler. Is this similar to what America's leadership could be planning now with the CC?

 

"Totilatarian governments DO use national curriculum as a propaganda tool to "brainwash" their citizens. Research Nazi Germany curriculum. It didn't seem to raise any red flags for them either, btw.

I'm NOT saying that is what CC is about bc it's not. However, we should be vigilant that we don't let go of our liberties, and CC is just another step towards centralized control. Every step away from the Constitution should be a cause of alarm, at least for those that wear their foil hats every day at high noon."

I explicitly stated that CC has nothing to do with Nazi Germany. You are putting words in my mouth.

[dereksurfs]

I explicitly stated that CC has nothing to do with Nazi Germany. You are putting words in my mouth.

 

 

Then please, why bring it up to begin with, if it has nothing to do with CC?

[ReneTL]

Are you willing to feed your kids formula or give them prescription medicine from China? The free market does not always raise standards. Not everyone can magically judge medicine safety by peering at a pill.

 

 

No, I'm not willing to formula feed and I do everything in my power to avoid pharmaceuticals, but that is my choice as a participant in the economy. I would also never suggest that the pharmaceutical industry is a free market or that the FDA looks out for my best interests.

 

In addition, I would not say that charter schools are the same as school choice. They are more of a pseudo-choice. (also not a choice in KY, where i live) They're still part of the same government problem. School choice, in my mind, means that my tax dollars follow my child to ANY school of my choice.

[La Texican]

I don't see how this conversation can take place without considering how school choice would raise standards. One of the things free markets do best is to raise standards. One thing the federal government does best is lower standards. I guess I'll go get my tin-foil hat and get back to work.

 

I googled "waldorf plus common core standards", there are google results showing waldorf adjusting to common core standards. I just wanted to know if it was possible for vocational tech charters, college prep schools, and schools like Waldorf, which from what I've read are on a wildly different scope and sequence, preferring that their students not learn stuff too early. If so, then it's still a free market. Everybody still has their own philosophies, tips, and tricks.

[Arcadia]

Anything interesting? or radically different?

 

Not radically different but interesting as in these are not done now with the multiple choice question style of STAR testing.

 

"Standards for Mathematical Practice

1.Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them.

2.Reason abstractly and quantitatively.

3.Construct viable arguments and critique the reasoning of others.

4.Model with mathematics.

5.Use appropriate tools strategically.

6.Attend to precision.

7. Look for and make use of structure.

8. Look for and express regularity in repeated reasoning."

 

and they give the example of

"Without using paper and pencil, find the answer to 38 plus 37."

 

This also makes things clearer

"CCSS High School Standards

 

Organized into 6 conceptual categories:

Number and Quantity

Algebra

Functions

Modeling (*)

Geometry

Statistics and Probability

 

California additions:

Advanced Placement Probability and Statistics

Calculus"

 

For Languages Arts they stated that

"NAEP Alignment in Reading

 

Grade Literature Information

4 50% 50%

8 45% 55%

12 30% 70%

 

Percentages do not imply that high school ELA teachers must teach 70% informational text; they demand instead that a great deal of reading should occur in other disciplines."

 

ETA:

This page is linked from California's CDE page. They are to be use as class test kind of scenario.

"Mathematics Assessment Project

 

BALANCED ASSESSMENT

 

Prototype Summative Assessment Tests"

 

More sample class test questions here http://ccsstoolbox.agilemind.com/parcc/PARCCPrototype_main.html

[Roadrunner]

Arcadia thanks for the details! I do like new math testing.

 

[stripe]

No, I'm not willing to formula feed and I do everything in my power to avoid pharmaceuticals, but that is my choice as a participant in the economy. I would also never suggest that the pharmaceutical industry is a free market or that the FDA looks out for my best interests.

Sometimes some oversight, or imperfect oversight, is vastly superior to none. In countries with no regulation of food, pharmaceuticals, and merchandise AND rampant access to counterfeit products, things like food (which I presume you don't opt out of, even if you never buy consumer electronics or furniture). I don't like the idea of contaminated or misrepresented food. Over HALF of food in Bangladesh is counterfeit. How about that cooking oil in China that came from sewage byproducts? So, it may not be a problem for you, or so you would like to think, but actually it is a problem, or very well could be without the protections we may have in some locations.

 

I have never bought or used a can of formula. I still believe it should be safe, rather than toxic. For people with life-threatening diseases, like, say, HIV, cancer, and malaria, "opting out" or using alternative treatments is generally not lifespan-enhancing.

 

What makes CEO's so angelic? I am certain they don't have my best interests guiding their every move. I don't put private industry on a pedestal. Same goes for health insurance companies. :lol:

[JennyCook]

 

Something else interesting for everyone to chew on....James Milgram was the ONLY mathematician on the validation committee for CC. He wouldn't sign off on the standards. What does that tell you? It tells me, there are things to worry about here other than federal government take over. They're both pretty frustrating to me though. James Milgram doesn't agree with the way math is being taught or the direction this will take things. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Sooooo many red flags!

[SarahW]

Something else interesting for everyone to chew on....James Milgram was the ONLY mathematician on the validation committee for CC. He wouldn't sign off on the standards. What does that tell you? It tells me, there are things to worry about here other than federal government take over. They're both pretty frustrating to me though. James Milgram doesn't agree with the way math is being taught or the direction this will take things. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Sooooo many red flags!

 

I looked on the internet and it looks like his complaint is that the standards aren't rigorous enough. He wants every High School student to take Calculus by 12th grade. Which is a noble goal, but not really doable, imo.

 

When I was joined public High School I took Geometry in 10th, like I thought every normal person did. But then I happened to sit in study hall next to some girls I sorta knew, girls who lived in our town's version of the "wrong side of the tracks" and I was baffled by their math homework. "What class are you in?" I asked. "Oh, we're in Integrated Math." Integrated Math? I worked out that this class was for students that were behind in math, and I'm not exactly sure what their homework entailed, but it was definitely pre-Algebra. It apparently counted as a math credit for graduation, but clearly it wasn't on the "college prep" track.

 

CC, again, is minimum standards. The goal is that everyone can go to Community College and not have to take a remedial math class. Making sure 10th graders are doing something more than pre-Algebra is a worthwhile goal, even if we may find the idea that there are 10th graders not doing Algebra shocking.

 

But just because some 10th graders couldn't do Algebra in my school didn't mean that there wasn't a good number of 10th graders in the Geometry classes. And my high school did offer a Calculus class, too.

[stripe]

I looked on the internet and it looks like his complaint is that the standards aren't rigorous enough. He wants every High School student to take Calculus by 12th grade. Which is a noble goal, but not really doable, imo.

 

When I was joined public High School I took Geometry in 10th, like I thought every normal person did. But then I happened to sit in study hall next to some girls I sorta knew, girls who lived in our town's version of the "wrong side of the tracks" and I was baffled by their math homework. "What class are you in?" I asked. "Oh, we're in Integrated Math."

Yeah, exactly. In my school, we had to take some test in 8th grade that determined whether we would go to the Bio/Chem/Physics track or the science classes creatively titled " -- th grade science." There is no end to the low expectations for "those" kids.

 

Time to go watch "Stand and Deliver."

[Snickerdoodle]

Diane Ravitch recently wrote a piece in her blog about CC.

[Mergath]

I did. I even took notes. Please, tell me where I made an inappropriate, arbitrary use of Nazi comparison? I was explaining to Mergath that totilatarian governments use education as propaganda and gave Nazi Gemany as an example. I even specifically stated that CC has nothing to do with it. I was stating facts about Nazi Germany. Your article even said the law does not apply when discussing totilitarian governments, which I was.

 

However, since you missed my point, and missed the point of your own article, I will give you an example of an inappropriate use of Nazi comparison and we'll see if it actually kills this thread. Here goes: "You remind me a lot of Hitler. He was against learning from history too."

 

That is a disgusting comparison and I truly don't mean it, but do you see the difference? I thought your accusation of me was pretty rude.

 

You're new to the internet, aren't you? :huh:

[Mergath]

Something else interesting for everyone to chew on....James Milgram was the ONLY mathematician on the validation committee for CC. He wouldn't sign off on the standards. What does that tell you? It tells me, there are things to worry about here other than federal government take over. They're both pretty frustrating to me though. James Milgram doesn't agree with the way math is being taught or the direction this will take things. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Sooooo many red flags!

 

Did you actually look at the names on the validation committee for yourself? Because I have the list in front of me right now, and, well, you're wrong.

 

Alfinio Flores—Hollowell Professor of Mathematics Education in the Department of Mathematical Sciences and

 

School of Education at the University of Delaware’s College of Education & Public Policy

 

Feng-Jui Hsieh—Associate Professor in the Mathematics Department at the National Taiwan Normal University

 

Jeremy Kilpatrick—Regents Professor of Mathematics Education at the University of Georgia

 

Two of them actually specialize in math education, which I figure makes them pretty darn qualified to judge the validity of a set of math standards. And Feng-Jui Hsieh is a straight-up math prof, which I'm fairly sure makes him a mathematician.

 

But hey, don't let those pesky facts get in your way.

[Dana]

Two of them actually specialize in math education, which I figure makes them pretty darn qualified to judge the validity of a set of math standards.

 

 

Eh... unfortunately it really depends on the individual and institution. We had two math ed profs for my degree. One did actually know what he was talking about. The other one... not so much.

[Hottater]

http://mdk12.org/sha...iting_grk-2.pdf

 

Tell me this isn't egregious in a negative way for a 1st and 2nd grader? I was told by my homeschool reviewer who is a state reviewer "I wanted you to be aware of the national core and state core standards. Have you considered teaching him about writing prompts?" (Writing prompts? Wasn't that what I learned that in 9th grade? I was a year ahead of my PS system with my ds, now I am behind by a year according to their standards. And, for teachers to scramble to help a 2nd grader write an opinionated paragraph seems ludicrous. How many kids are going to fail that class, when half of the kids are struggling to write one sentence well? I think they want our babies - preschool- is it going to be mandatory too? I totally feel a socialist educational system around the bend. Core standards were already not being met. If they are upping the ante so to speak and federalizing it, what makes you think that teachers who will be scrambling for curriculum writers to help them implement these standards wouldn't just go with one publisher just for ease of cost and to assuage the Federal mandate with indoctrination sewn in? I feel like everyone is screaming - NO! the world is flat - there is no other text books other than these that meet the national standards, because these standards are higher and better- our kids will be brighter now with a boat load of more homework that they won't be able to fit in a day and teachers scrambling to teach larger than life concepts to young kids who have no points of reference and who will get fully divided attention. (Someone throws a paper airplane, and kids are flipping pencils behind the teacher's back, the teacher can't follow up that idea, time has already ran out, class over - class, submit a cursive paragraph tomorrow.) What? Somehow the next gimmick instead of "Your baby can read" will turn into "Your baby will right a thesis."

 

Please tell me I'm not the only one that feels this. I just talked to a mom of a public school kid who attends the school of the 2nd best county school system of Maryland which has the best school systems in all of US according to http://247wallst.com...orst-schools/3/ . Her kid didn't learn these concepts last year. No I don't want america to be dumbed down, but for pete's sake, in a scramble -- states please don't go with one curriculum to brainwash them all. And, government please don't be pesky to us home schoolers when it's our differences that make us unique and thrive. Also, we are ranked 6th according to some sites as far as smartest countries of the world. 6th isn't bad...

[dereksurfs]

http://mdk12.org/sha...iting_grk-2.pdf

 

Tell me this isn't egregious in a negative way for a 1st and 2nd grader? I was told by my homeschool reviewer who is a state reviewer "I wanted you to be aware of the national core and state core standards. Have you considered teaching him about writing prompts?" (Writing prompts? Wasn't that what I learned that in 9th grade? I was a year ahead of my PS system with my ds, now I am behind by a year according to their standards. And, for teachers to scramble to help a 2nd grader write an opinionated paragraph seems ludicrous. How many kids are going to fail that class, when half of the kids are struggling to write one sentence well? ...

 

Please tell me I'm not the only one that feels this. I just talked to a mom of a public school kid who attends the school of the 2nd best county school system of Maryland which has the best school systems in all of US according to http://247wallst.com...orst-schools/3/ . Her kid didn't learn these concepts last year. No I don't want america to be dumbed down, but for pete's sake, in a scramble -- states please don't go with one curriculum to brainwash them all. And, government please don't be pesky to us home schoolers when it's our differences that make us unique and thrive. Also, we are ranked 6th according to some sites as far as smartest countries of the world. 6th isn't bad...

 

 

Yes, this is the only part I've seen so far that seems over the top in terms of expectations. I do think they need to rework this writing portion. The math still looks like bare minimums which some argue are too easy.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by 'states please don't go with one curriculum' as the CC is not even a curriculum but rather a set of standards. Each local school district still selects its own curriculum. Nowhere is there a recommendation to use only 'one' curriculum which would make brainwashing more difficult. That is also why many publishers are now scrambling to make sure their curriculum meets the standards such as MUS. In the case of math, Division needs to be taught by a certain grade level. I don't see the brainwashing potential there. One could say its too early for some perhaps.

 

I'm most curious about your last statement. 'Government please don't be pesky to us home schoolers when it's our differences that make us unique and thrive.' How specifically will the CC effect homeschoolers in your view of things? Most of the talk I've heard, like ~99%, has to do with how the local school districts are implementing it. We will continue to do things as a homeschool family the way we've always done them. So I see very little impact in that way. Is this different for your family?

[Arcadia]

The math still looks like bare minimums which some argue are too easy.

 

Arcadia thanks for the details! I do like new math testing.

 

 

Both of you might be interested in page 4 of this pdf "What do teachers need to know to teach math well" (http://www.cbmsweb.o...ntations/Wu.pdf)

This one gives a brief explanation of common core geometry "Teaching Geometry according to the Common Core Standards" (http://math.berkeley...ns_Geometry.pdf)

 

ETA:

I don't see that as a problem with common core but with teacher training as a whole.

[dereksurfs]

Both of you might be interested in page 4 of this pdf "What do teachers need to know to teach math well" (http://www.cbmsweb.o...ntations/Wu.pdf)

This one gives a brief explanation of common core geometry "Teaching Geometry according to the Common Core Standards" (http://math.berkeley...ns_Geometry.pdf)

 

 

Those are interesting Arcadia. The math comment I made was in specific reference to James Milgram's critique of the CC. He is the one which most anti-CC groups tout in saying that the only mathematician on the CC Validation Committee disapproves of it. Note, I'm not saying I think that the CC math standards are a bad thing, only that some claim they are too weak. Basically James Miligram is saying they didn't go far enough, not that having a national standard is bad. Yet I think many anti-CC groups would lump him in with their supporters against *any* national standards. You can see his comments on the CC here:

http://parentsacross...ndards-in-math/

[Arcadia]

The math comment I made was in specific reference to James Milgram's critique of the CC.

 

I checked out his comments yesterday on the CC math standards. While I agree that it is too weak compared to other countries, CC standards are a minimum so I don't see it as a valid rebuttal to CC being bad. California has Algebra listed as one of the track for CC for 8th grade. The other track is general math.

[Library Momma]

http://mdk12.org/sha...iting_grk-2.pdf

 

Tell me this isn't egregious in a negative way for a 1st and 2nd grader? I was told by my homeschool reviewer who is a state reviewer "I wanted you to be aware of the national core and state core standards. Have you considered teaching him about writing prompts?" (Writing prompts? Wasn't that what I learned that in 9th grade? I was a year ahead of my PS system with my ds, now I am behind by a year according to their standards. And, for teachers to scramble to help a 2nd grader write an opinionated paragraph seems ludicrous. How many kids are going to fail that class, when half of the kids are struggling to write one sentence well? I think they want our babies - preschool- is it going to be mandatory too? I totally feel a socialist educational system around the bend. Core standards were already not being met. If they are upping the ante so to speak and federalizing it, what makes you think that teachers who will be scrambling for curriculum writers to help them implement these standards wouldn't just go with one publisher just for ease of cost and to assuage the Federal mandate with indoctrination sewn in? I feel like everyone is screaming - NO! the world is flat - there is no other text books other than these that meet the national standards, because these standards are higher and better- our kids will be brighter now with a boat load of more homework that they won't be able to fit in a day and teachers scrambling to teach larger than life concepts to young kids who have no points of reference and who will get fully divided attention. (Someone throws a paper airplane, and kids are flipping pencils behind the teacher's back, the teacher can't follow up that idea, time has already ran out, class over - class, submit a cursive paragraph tomorrow.) What? Somehow the next gimmick instead of "Your baby can read" will turn into "Your baby will right a thesis."

 

Please tell me I'm not the only one that feels this. I just talked to a mom of a public school kid who attends the school of the 2nd best county school system of Maryland which has the best school systems in all of US according to http://247wallst.com...orst-schools/3/ . Her kid didn't learn these concepts last year. No I don't want america to be dumbed down, but for pete's sake, in a scramble -- states please don't go with one curriculum to brainwash them all. And, government please don't be pesky to us home schoolers when it's our differences that make us unique and thrive. Also, we are ranked 6th according to some sites as far as smartest countries of the world. 6th isn't bad...

 

 

My kids in ps have been doing writing prompts since 1st grade. Each grade writes to their ability. Basically, they are a more creative starting off point than "What I did this weekend..." They do not seem to be out of the reach of the majority of students.

 

What I do find interesting is the lack of good old fashioned book reports I see in school. You see science reports (on an animal or weather phenomenon) and/or history reports (on an important person or a holiday), but you do not see book summaries. By 2nd grade book reports take the shape of "How does this book remind you of another story you have read?" or "How do the events in this book remind you of something that has happened in your life?" Noble, but I feel they've skipped a step. My kids have never done a good old fashioned summary of characters, events, plot, etc. (well at least not one assigned by the school ;) )

[Arcadia]

What I do find interesting is the lack of good old fashioned book reports I see in school. You see science reports (on an animal or weather phenomenon) and/or history reports (on an important person or a holiday), but you do not see book summaries. By 2nd grade book reports take the shape of "How does this book remind you of another story you have read?" or "How do the events in this book remind you of something that has happened in your life?" Noble, but I feel they've skipped a step. My kids have never done a good old fashioned summary of characters, events, plot, etc. (well at least not one assigned by the school ;) )

 

 

Book reports are probably another thing that differs by schools even in the same district. My older's kindergarten weekly book report homework was draw a picture to illustrate what the book is about, list the main characters, state the storyline/plot, state your favorite part of the story and why, which character in the story do you want to be and why. 1st grade book reports just go more in depth on the same questions.

[Corraleno]

Tell me this isn't egregious in a negative way for a 1st and 2nd grader? I was told by my homeschool reviewer who is a state reviewer "I wanted you to be aware of the national core and state core standards. Have you considered teaching him about writing prompts?" (Writing prompts? Wasn't that what I learned that in 9th grade? I was a year ahead of my PS system with my ds, now I am behind by a year according to their standards. And, for teachers to scramble to help a 2nd grader write an opinionated paragraph seems ludicrous. How many kids are going to fail that class, when half of the kids are struggling to write one sentence well?

 

A "writing prompt" is just a question to write about; I'm pretty sure you were answering questions in your writing before 9th grade. My kids could certainly write "a simple sentence" in 1st grade, as described in the CC standards. My kids could write a simple paragraph (which could be as little as 3-4 sentences) in 2nd grade, and they could tell the difference between fact and opinion. I don't find that unreasonable. If kids learn to write a single, well-constructed sentence in 1st grade, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to write 3-4 connected sentences by the end of 2nd grade. The first draft is not expected to be perfect; the revising process is part of the standards.

 

I think they want our babies - preschool- is it going to be mandatory too? I totally feel a socialist educational system around the bend. Core standards were already not being met. If they are upping the ante so to speak and federalizing it, what makes you think that teachers who will be scrambling for curriculum writers to help them implement these standards wouldn't just go with one publisher just for ease of cost and to assuage the Federal mandate with indoctrination sewn in?

 

It is a huge — and completely illogical — leap from "the CC writing standards may be a bit much for some 2nd graders" to "the government is coming for our babies and they're going to brainwash and indoctrinate our kids and create a socialist education system."

 

I feel like everyone is screaming - NO! the world is flat - there is no other text books other than these that meet the national standards, because these standards are higher and better- our kids will be brighter now with a boat load of more homework that they won't be able to fit in a day and teachers scrambling to teach larger than life concepts to young kids who have no points of reference and who will get fully divided attention.

 

I don't consider the idea of distinguishing between fact and opinion, and supporting opinion with facts, to be difficult "larger than life concepts," even for 2nd graders. If students truly have no points of reference for that.... well, that's a sad commentary on our current media culture.

 

As for me, I'm pleased that the new CC standards have such a strong focus on logic and critical thinking skills, as well as more of an emphasis on primary sources in upper grades. Perhaps the next generation will grow up knowing the difference between fact and opinion, and will take the time to actually read original sources instead of getting their "facts" from Facebook and talk radio.

 

Jackie

[Arcadia]

Oh goodness!!!

 

CC Assessments are coming out and they are saying in 24 states tests could take 8-10 hours depending on grade level and are giving students 5-9 days to complete.

 

That is less hours than what California schools currently give for STAR testing. My nearby schools are giving 5hrs each spread over 5 days for LA and Math for 2nd to 5th grade. The STAR testing is untimed so students are allowed to continue the next day and the day after next on the same test.

SmarterBalanced is the one doing California common core tests and I don't know if those are going to be timed.

[Corraleno]

So that works out to about an hour per day over 9 days. Plus the "performance-based" assessments and the "end-of year assessments" either don't-have-to-be or aren't-supposed-to-be (can't tell which from that document) given during the same time period. E.g. there could be a week of 1-hr-per-day performance based tests in March, and a week of 1-hr-per-day end-of-year assessments in May/June.

 

In terms of the time involved, that's not very different from the testing my DS had to do when he was in PS. They had about 3 hrs of testing at the beginning of the year, again in February or so, and then again at the end of the year. And those were stupid multiple choice tests that didn't really measure much at all.

 

Jackie

[Hottater]

 

 

Yes, this is the only part I've seen so far that seems over the top in terms of expectations. I do think they need to rework this writing portion. The math still looks like bare minimums which some argue are too easy.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by 'states please don't go with one curriculum' as the CC is not even a curriculum but rather a set of standards. Each local school district still selects its own curriculum. Nowhere is there a recommendation to use only 'one' curriculum which would make brainwashing more difficult. That is also why many publishers are now scrambling to make sure their curriculum meets the standards such as MUS. In the case of math, Division needs to be taught by a certain grade level. I don't see the brainwashing potential there. One could say its too early for some perhaps.

 

I'm most curious about your last statement. 'Government please don't be pesky to us home schoolers when it's our differences that make us unique and thrive.' How specifically will the CC effect homeschoolers in your view of things? Most of the talk I've heard, like ~99%, has to do with how the local school districts are implementing it. We will continue to do things as a homeschool family the way we've always done them. So I see very little impact in that way. Is this different for your family?

 

 

My STATE reviewer was recommending this to us. Our SAT standards and many teachers teach to test, state tests included. You're right, they might not choose one curriculum. But, this affects all of us even if it's public school because that means we all will have to up their standards to meet post secondary requirements. So I guess throw away our current bought curriculum that doesn't match? Grr... I hope that they don't start requiring test scores from us other than SAT but, personally it burns me out cramming more down my kids throat, in order to fulfill a federal mandate.. More power given to the government to tell the public what to do and how to do it which trickles down to homeschoolers, is getting kinda hectic.

 

[Tracy]

I am confused why more people are not concerned about CC affecting homeschoolers. At the very least, it will affect our curriculum choices. But I don't believe that the standards are only going to apply to public schools. One of my state senators is currently trying to push a bill through to lower the compulsory education age, and promises to follow up with a bill to register homeschoolers. There are some states that already have to get curriculum approval. Perhaps I am just overly concerned because our state has not had any regulation of homeschools in the past. But it seems to me that the increasing regulation is eventually going to make its way to my home.

[dereksurfs]

My STATE reviewer was recommending this to us. Our SAT standards and many teachers teach to test, state tests included. You're right, they might not choose one curriculum. But, this affects all of us even if it's public school because that means we all will have to up their standards to meet post secondary requirements. So I guess throw away our current bought curriculum that doesn't match? Grr... I hope that they don't start requiring test scores from us other than SAT but, personally it burns me out cramming more down my kids throat, in order to fulfill a federal mandate.. More power given to the government to tell the public what to do and how to do it which trickles down to us, is getting kinda hectic.

 

Hmm, so are you apart of a state funded Charter requiring a state reviewer? Or is this some kind of blanket requirement for all homeschoolers in your state? Do you mind if I ask which 'state' since I haven't heard of such a requirement before? I'm not sure why you can't simply keep your current curriculum as we will ours, here in CA? So far CC has no impact on our current homeschool plans whatsoever. That's why this seems a bit strange to me.

 

When you reference upping standards for post secondary requirements it sounds like you mean changes to the SAT test. Its really hard to say if changes to the SAT will benefit homeschool families or not. But its already a nationally based standardized test which levels the playing field for all students. So I don't see how simply revising it means greater interference by the Gov't. How else would it ever be updated/revised if not by a 'national' committee of some kind?

[dereksurfs]

I am confused why more people are not concerned about CC affecting homeschoolers. At the very least, it will affect our curriculum choices. But I don't believe that the standards are only going to apply to public schools. One of my state senators is currently trying to push a bill through to lower the compulsory education age, and promises to follow up with a bill to register homeschoolers. There are some states that already have to get curriculum approval. Perhaps I am just overly concerned because our state has not had any regulation of homeschools in the past. But it seems to me that the increasing regulation is eventually going to make its way to my home.

 

 

Tracy, I'm wondering the opposite which is why I find this thread interesting. I do disagree with your point however that 'at the very least, it will affect our curriculum choices.' My curriculum choices have not changed at all nor will they. Rather I view the CC as a way to standardize 'State' Education standards already in place. Our state of CA for example along with many others already have high state standards with no negative impact on homeschoolers. So I don't really see the need to panic over a national standard for each state to follow. All the other issues like compulsory education age, registration of homeschoolers are 'separate' issues from CC state education standards, though possibly part of a larger conspiracy. We already have to register as homeschoolers in CA. But the state doesn't dictate our curriculum. To me this anti-CC movement seems more rooted in a rather larger socio-political worldview. Basicially its the 'get Big Gov't out of anything and everything movement', which I now realize more. So 'anything' which occurs at federal level educationally is bad. Based on this premise the CC could be easily substituted with Bugs Bunny videos and it would still somehow be a bad, malicious plot to brainwash our kids. :eek: :D

[K&Rs Mom]

My curriculum choices have not changed at all nor will they.

 

I think what people are talking about is hs curricula being rewritten to match common core. I know Math Mammoth is one - not much changed, but some topics have been moved to a different grade or in a different order, so the version you could buy now lines up with cc, while the version I have from a couple years ago didn't. So anyone purchasing it now is "limited" to the new/cc version, not the old version (though I have heard that emailing the author can get you the old one anyway). This is nothing new, curricula have always been updated for many reasons, and the old ones usually are no longer printed, but the point is that your choices have changed in this case.

 

And I'll stand by my right to brainwash my kids with Animaniacs, not Bugs Bunny. ;)

[Hottater]

 

 

Hmm, so are you apart of a state funded Charter requiring a state reviewer? Or is this some kind of blanket requirement for all homeschoolers in your state? Do you mind if I ask which 'state' since I haven't heard of such a requirement before? I'm not sure why you can't simply keep your current curriculum as we will ours, here in CA? So far CC has no impact on our current homeschool plans whatsoever. That's why this seems a bit strange to me.

 

When you reference upping standards for post secondary requirements it sounds like you mean changes to the SAT test. Its really hard to say if changes to the SAT will benefit homeschool families or not. But its already a nationally based standardized test which levels the playing field for all students. So I don't see how simply revising it means greater interference by the Gov't. How else would it ever be updated/revised if not by a 'national' committee of some kind?

 

I am not required to have a state reviewer, but I have one rather than an umbrella. I am not required to adopted cc now, but this moved drastically from last year's 'just show forward progression to -- here's a paper from MD state cc that might help you in curriculum choice for language arts and other subjects. I am slightly perturbed to be shown this standard by which now shows my son as a year behind, rather than what I thought was a year ahead. Most of us using ps standards as guides and wondering where our kids compare to the ps school system, whether they like to admit it or not will be considered behind, or will eventually be required to complete curriculum at a alarmingly stressful rate, unless the curriculum is cc compliant. All state and other testing will reflect this going up to SATs. It's a lot off putting with those that struggle with the standards before. I student taught music in the public school, and remembered the behavioral issues in the classroom that was bad before, and us just trying to get the kids up to the previous standards and classroom management from my teaching friends and coworkers trying to comply with literally no time built in the school day to plan. So I just don't see how this helps anyone, when overwhelming class size and discipline issues hurt their performance rate then they reclass people into remedial classes. Raising a standard to see more fail? This is yes, my opinion, feel free to ignore it support it what have you. I just wanted to know if there was validation that I am not the only one that feels this way.

[dereksurfs]

I am not required to have a state reviewer, but I have one rather than an umbrella. I am not required to adopted cc now, but this moved drastically from last year's 'just show forward progression to -- here's a paper from MD state cc that might help you in curriculum choice for language arts and other subjects. I am slightly perturbed to be shown this standard by which now shows my son as a year behind, rather than what I thought was a year ahead. Most of us using ps standards as guides and wondering where our kids compare to the ps school system, whether they like to admit it or not will be considered behind, or will eventually be required to complete curriculum at a alarmingly stressful rate, unless the curriculum is cc compliant. All state and other testing will reflect this going up to SATs. It's a lot off putting with those that struggle with the standards before. I student taught music in the public school, and remembered the behavioral issues in the classroom that was bad before, and us just trying to get the kids up to the previous standards and classroom management from my teaching friends and coworkers trying to comply with literally no time built in the school day to plan. So I just don't see how this helps anyone, when overwhelming class size and discipline issues hurt their performance rate then they reclass people into remedial classes. Raising a standard to see more fail? This is yes, my opinion, feel free to ignore it support it what have you. I just wanted to know if there was validation that I am not the only one that feels this way.

 

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I really am trying to understand the frustrations some are having beyond potential Gov't conspiracies and associated issues/fears since I view those as self-induced/perpetuating. And yes, Its ok to agree to disagree. Hopefully both sides can learn from each other on these issues, especially when there are real impacts whether good or bad.

[Corraleno]

My STATE reviewer was recommending this to us. Our SAT standards and many teachers teach to test, state tests included. You're right, they might not choose one curriculum. But, this affects all of us even if it's public school because that means we all will have to up their standards to meet post secondary requirements. So I guess throw away our current bought curriculum that doesn't match? Grr... I hope that they don't start requiring test scores from us other than SAT but, personally it burns me out cramming more down my kids throat, in order to fulfill a federal mandate.. More power given to the government to tell the public what to do and how to do it which trickles down to homeschoolers, is getting kinda hectic.

 

ALL states have standards which they impose on public schools. There are two major problems with this: (1) the standards vary widely from state to state, and (2) public schools are not adequately preparing students for college work. Far too many students end up in remedial math and English classes, incapable of reading critically and analytically, writing a decent essay with a thesis supported by facts, and understanding basic mathematical concepts.

 

Common core standards are an attempt to address these problems. They were developed by a consortium of STATE OFFICIALS, headed by a PRIVATE COMPANY. The big bad federal government did not create the CC standards, and states are not required to adopt them.

 

If your current state standards are so much lower than the new CC standards that your kids went from above grade level to below grade level overnight, then IMHO your previous state standards were not very good. Rather than complaining that you will now have to "up [your] standards to meet post-secondary requirements," maybe you should consider the possibility that your kids may actually be better prepared for college because of it.

 

I truly do not understand the paranoia about CC standards — especially given the fact that the head of the development process is a big fan of classical education (which he studied at Cambridge University as a Rhodes scholar), and he is trying to introduce exactly the sort of rigorous standards, Great Books, and critical thinking and writing skills that most WTMers champion.

 

Jackie

[dereksurfs]

This almost seems like a futile attempt or moot point to stop CC since almost all states have already adpoted it. Since it is a 'minimum' standard hopefully most schools and homeschoolers will aim 'above' this minimum in preparing children for their future. Below is a map showing current state adoption. Green have adopted CC while blue have adopted LA only:

 

http://www.ascd.org/...option-map.aspx

[Hottater]

Jen offered great examples of expository writing for k and first from ps?. Maybe, it's just me, but I don't remember writing that stuff until end of 4th, or 5th when I was in school. Maybe gen x was the less intelligent generation? Yes, I hope my kids are smarter, but after looking at it, and we've done wwe1 and 1/2 of wwe2 neither of which does expository writing. And were created by our favorite WTM authors. You can see the plethora of curricula in my sig line. Marry all this classical Ed stuff with these standards, and tell me where they line up to cc. How could you implement this stuff and still maintain the WTM way of teaching with WTM curricula? It takes my average gr 2 ds 45 minutes a day just to summarize what's given and we are at week 24 of WWE 2. I have been tiger momming it unfortunately. How could you fit it ALL in, in what seems like 36 weeks to just finish wwe2? Do you see where I thought my kid was ahead and now behind? I am glad we aren't in public school, but maybe I should put my kid in? After all, their standards are higher than ours now... Let someone else take care of matching curricula? I get people telling me my son would have been red shirted, I started with abeka k3, and everyone in the homeschool communities told me to take it easy on my young ones. I guess not? Or maybe i should? Finland doesn't start school until age 7. And they rank ahead of us in national standards. So what is a classical educator to do?

[Arcadia]

Jen offered great examples of expository writing for k and first from ps?. Maybe, it's just me, but I don't remember writing that stuff until end of 4th, or 5th when I was in school.

 

 

I looked at the examples of expository writing and it was covered/taught in Science for my kids from Kindergarten.

[boscopup]

Marry all this classical Ed stuff with these standards, and tell me where they line up to cc. How could you implement this stuff and still maintain the WTM way of teaching with WTM curricula?

 

 

I don't. I reject the public school method of writing (before and after CCS), and I teach it the way I think is developmentally appropriate for my children. No, my oldest could not write a paragraph in 2nd grade. He physically and mentally was not ready to do that. He could give an oral narration of 3-4 sentences, but he could not write an original paragraph. This year in 3rd, he can do it, and he can do it pretty well. By time he's in high school, he will probably be an excellent writer, and you won't know that he couldn't write a paragraph in 2nd grade or that he left all his 1st grade journal prompts (in private school) empty. :tongue_smilie:

 

The CCS writing methods aren't anything new. Public schools have pushed quantity over quality for several years now. The WTM style of writing pushes quality over quantity. In the end, the quantity is there, but the kids aren't writing pages and pages in early elementary. So I could care less what the standards say. I don't have to follow the standards. I homeschool. I follow my own standards. My goal is to produce a better writer than what the public schools typically produce. The path is different, so you can't even compare during the younger years. My son may not have been writing paragraphs in 2nd grade, but he also wasn't writing short, choppy 2nd grade style sentences. I'd rather him have one really good sentence than a bunch of short, choppy sentences put together for the sake of writing a paragraph.