What is the best kind of test to verify "mommy grades"?

[Chrysalis Academy]

For whatever OCD reason, I've been reading up on AP classes/testing, and following the recent threads here with interest, particularly the one about trying to combine a classical and/or interest-driven high school education with AP classes, and the difficulties thereof.

 

So my questions are:

 

1) assuming that your goal is to verify "mommy grades" and put together a solid college ap, rather than to receive college credit, is AP necessary, or are the SAT subject tests ok? They seem cheaper and easier to prepare for . . .

 

2) What is the difference between having an AP class on your transcript, vs. passing an AP exam? I realize you can't call a class AP unless the syllabus/provider is verified. But you could do a (nonAP) class and then take the AP exam, right? Assuming you prepared well and scored highly on the exam, do you gain anything by having the AP class on your transcript?

 

Any other good methods for verifying mommy grades, besides SAT/ACT/SAT subject/AP test scores? My understanding is the CLEP is mostly used to get college credit by exam, but is it also considered a mommy-grade verification by colleges?

 

Thanks a lot!

[Gwen in VA]

SAT-2 exams only come in a VERY limited selection of subjects. AP tests come in a wider variety.

 

Some colleges require SAT-2 tests for admission.

 

Pretty much the only thing that matters is the AP score. How you prepared for the test doesn't matter much, though I suppose a student who got a 5 on the test but a C in the class might appear odd to admissions.

 

If you really don't want to go the SAT-2 / AP route, you can also do CC classes. There is a much wider variety of classes, and they provide "real" classroom experience.

[elizabeth]

May I brag a moment? OK I am going to so just go with it. We only took AP exams, SAT and ACT. To date, we have received over six figures from 7 schools based on test scores and my very transparent, inclusive and broad transcripts complete with book lists. It was the decisive factor in every award given. You have no idea how very little is expected in terms of reading in high schools today it is all about experiential learning and group projects. Trust me on this. Teach the AP courses you think you will excel at and take your child to the local high school for the exams. Study on a schedule that would make lesser mortals shake their fists at the sky for having been born to a home schooling mother. The SAT and ACT matter far more than anyone is honest enough to say. Kill those exams and the world is your oyster, do moderately well and the results will be moderate. In essence, unis are lying when they say they are not important. They get your application looked at very seriously from the outset. Prepare by doing actual exams from the ACT and College Board SAT. AP did not mean much in terms of admissions but the book lists for Literature and World History meant a great deal when the ACT and SAT scores buttressed my grades and validated that yes indeed my child did read all of these texts many which have been deemed to difficult for college students. Read TWTM and follow it as far as it comports with your values. I think it is a testament to the book that it is both too conservative and too liberal for many families. I call it just right as it miffs both sides of the coin to a certain degree. I am glad to share my transcripts and cover letters with you. I also sent several of her research papers. However they all said the SAT score clinched the acceptance and merit awards from the outset. The other supporting material was nice but not dispositive.

[Lori D.]

For whatever OCD reason, I've been reading up on AP classes/testing, and following the recent threads here with interest, particularly the one about trying to combine a classical and/or interest-driven high school education with AP classes, and the difficulties thereof.

 

 

 

You may have already been reading through these, BUT... have you checked out the many past threads linked in post #2 of the stickied thread, Outsourcing, Online Classes, Tutors, Dual Enrollment, AP, SAT II, Clep...? Post #2 has all the threads on various tests. Here are several from that stickied thread that might be esp. pertinent:

 

AP, SAT Subject, CLEP -- how do you choose?

*Calling all veteran homeschoolers... AP, SAT Subject, & or CLEP for Biology? (specific discussion for medical future, but also some general discussion on when to take which test and why) **

AP, SAT Subject, CLEP, how do you choose? (past experiences of what people chose and why)

This started out as an SAT SATII, PSAT, ACT, AP, CLEP Roll Call and Mushroomed... (which tests and why -- and then an update 3 years later on what the original poster actually did) **

In your opinion -- CLEP or SAT II (which to verify "mommy grades)

 

 

 

So my questions are... assuming that your goal is to verify "mommy grades" and put together a solid college ap...

 

 

If ALL you want is verification of mommy grades, then, yes, SAT Subject Tests will accomplish that for you. AP tests can also do that, but the emphasis is more on advanced level of academics. So if you want verification AND something more... then AP will do that for you. Here are the key points for the AP and SAT Subject, from the College Board website:

 

AP

- most 4-year U.S. colleges/universities grant credit and/or advanced placement for qualifying scores.

- save time and money upon arriving at college… move directly into upper-level courses inthe field of interest (because of the credits earned)

- help students stand out in the admission process

- can earn academic scholarships and awards from colleges and universities

- experience college-level academics now, while still in high school

SAT SUBJECT

- reliable, objective assessment of student readiness for college-level work

- helps colleges objectively assess student knowledge and skills

- effectively and objectively assess a student's mastery of specific content areas

 

 

My quick and incomplete answers to your questions, because those are BIG topics you are wanting to cover are below.

 

 

 

1) assuming that your goal is to verify "mommy grades" and put together a solid college ap, rather than to receive college credit, is AP necessary, or are the SAT subject tests ok? They seem cheaper and easier to prepare for . . .

 

1. Depends on the College/University.

Each is unique in its preference, so comb the websites, or call the admissions offices of the colleges you think your children may want to attend in the earlier years of high school in order to have time to accomplish whichever (if any!) kind of testing will best align your DC for the institution of their choice.

 

 

 

 

2) A.What is the difference between having an AP class on your transcript, vs. passing an AP exam?

B. I realize you can't call a class AP unless the syllabus/provider is verified. But you could do a (nonAP) class and then take the AP exam, right?

C. Assuming you prepared well and scored highly on the exam, do you gain anything by having the AP class on your transcript?

 

 

 

 

2) A. Taking the AP coursework with no test = This could be valuable on the transcript as it would show the student is working at an Honors or advanced level, which, hopefully the college will value. On the other hand, NOT having the test to back up the coursework may look like the student is trying to inflate their value on the transcript and in reality wasn't "good enough" to "put their money where their mouth is" and actually show their value by taking the test...

 

Taking AP coursework AND passing AP exam = Definitely shows the college that the student valued the entire AP process enough to follow through with the testing. (If the student does not score well, I believe there is an option to not have the grades posted?? Others more familiar with the AP process will have to comment there.)

 

More advantages to taking the test: Depending on the score of the exam the student can earn college credit (depending on the college), and/or be eligible for taking advanced work or sophomore level coursework as soon as they hit college.

 

2) B. I have seen a number of past threads in which people did not necessarily use standard AP coursework, but then took the test. I would think you would certainly want to find and practice in advance with some actual AP test prep material, however.

 

2.) C. See advantages to testing and scoring well on answer to 2.) A

 

 

 

 

3.) A. Any other good methods for verifying mommy grades, besides SAT/ACT/SAT subject/AP test scores?

B. My understanding is the CLEP is mostly used to get college credit by exam, but is it also considered a mommy-grade verification by colleges?

 

 

 

3.) A. Online class. Or dual enrollment with a local community college or 4-year college/university (depending on the quality and the reputation of the community college or online course with the institution to which you are applying).

 

3.) B. Especially those colleges that grant credit for CLEP would certainly see that as a validation of your homeschooling. I would think that if a high school student can study solo and past a test of college level material well enough to earn credit, it would be looked upon as the student's good academic background in general.

 

 

Hope something there is of help! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Chrysalis Academy]

May I brag a moment? OK I am going to so just go with it. We only took AP exams, SAT and ACT. To date, we have received over six figures from 7 schools based on test scores and my very transparent, inclusive and broad transcripts complete with book lists. It was the decisive factor in every award given. You have no idea how very little is expected in terms of reading in high schools today it is all about experiential learning and group projects. Trust me on this. Teach the AP courses you think you will excel at and take your child to the local high school for the exams. Study on a schedule that would make lesser mortals shake their fists at the sky for having been born to a home schooling mother. The SAT and ACT matter far more than anyone is honest enough to say. Kill those exams and the world is your oyster, do moderately well and the results will be moderate. In essence, unis are lying when they say they are not important. They get your application looked at very seriously from the outset. Prepare by doing actual exams from the ACT and College Board SAT. AP did not mean much in terms of admissions but the book lists for Literature and World History meant a great deal when the ACT and SAT scores buttressed my grades and validated that yes indeed my child did read all of these texts many which have been deemed to difficult for college students. Read TWTM and follow it as far as it comports with your values. I think it is a testament to the book that it is both too conservative and too liberal for many families. I call it just right as it miffs both sides of the coin to a certain degree. I am glad to share my transcripts and cover letters with you. I also sent several of her research papers. However they all said the SAT score clinched the acceptance and merit awards from the outset. The other supporting material was nice but not dispositive.

 

Thanks for this! It does verify my own personal experience - I know that high scores on the PSAT, SAT, and GRE opened big doors wide for me, whereas my hs transcripts (and lack of APs) had zero impact one way or the other on my later success.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Lori D., has anyone mentioned lately that you are a rock star??? :cheers2:

[elizabeth]

Lori D., has anyone mentioned lately that you are a rock star??? :cheers2:

You have no idea!! Ask for the book lists. Lori is a treasure trove of wonderful information and inspiration. We adore her here and frankly many of us myself included would have taken the crazy train without her support and willingness to share what worked. :001_tt1: :party:

[shanvan]

May I brag a moment? OK I am going to so just go with it. We only took AP exams, SAT and ACT. To date, we have received over six figures from 7 schools based on test scores and my very transparent, inclusive and broad transcripts complete with book lists. It was the decisive factor in every award given. You have no idea how very little is expected in terms of reading in high schools today it is all about experiential learning and group projects. Trust me on this. Teach the AP courses you think you will excel at and take your child to the local high school for the exams. Study on a schedule that would make lesser mortals shake their fists at the sky for having been born to a home schooling mother. The SAT and ACT matter far more than anyone is honest enough to say. Kill those exams and the world is your oyster, do moderately well and the results will be moderate. In essence, unis are lying when they say they are not important. They get your application looked at very seriously from the outset. Prepare by doing actual exams from the ACT and College Board SAT. AP did not mean much in terms of admissions but the book lists for Literature and World History meant a great deal when the ACT and SAT scores buttressed my grades and validated that yes indeed my child did read all of these texts many which have been deemed to difficult for college students. Read TWTM and follow it as far as it comports with your values. I think it is a testament to the book that it is both too conservative and too liberal for many families. I call it just right as it miffs both sides of the coin to a certain degree. I am glad to share my transcripts and cover letters with you. I also sent several of her research papers. However they all said the SAT score clinched the acceptance and merit awards from the outset. The other supporting material was nice but not dispositive.

 

 

You cannot write all this and then not list the books! Seriously, I would like to know especially which history books, though I'd be interested in the literature too.

[Lori D.]

AWESOME ADVICE, Elizabeth! Thanks for sharing!!

 

It does verify my own personal experience - I know that high scores on the PSAT, SAT, and GRE opened big doors wide for me, whereas my hs transcripts (and lack of APs) had zero impact one way or the other on my later success.

 

 

 

DO read some of those threads I linked above for recent BTDT experiences with these different tests. While overall, I'm right with you in your statement that it's the SAT and ACT test scores that are the most helpful/most important -- it's good to bear in mind that things have changed some since WE were all in high school, and AP has become a very big deal, esp. in some parts of the U.S., and with some colleges/universities, at least for admissions to specialized and top tier schools, and to be able to compete with other students with high SAT/ACT scores. And then, of course, a number of institutions REQUIRE some SAT Subject Tests.

 

I know it's hard when your students aren't even close to high school to be thinking about college, but if you can at least check out what the requirements are for, say, your state public universities, and a few nearby private colleges that you think your children might be interested in, that's a great starting place. Then, along about 10th grade, check again (it's amazing how much college admission policies can change in just a few years!), and you may also better know what specific colleges your student is interested in to check on those, too.

 

But if you dabble a little right now, by the time you hit high school, college won't seem so intimidating! ;) BEST of luck as you whack your way through this thorny thicket of test types, college credits, admission policies, and just in general starting to try out that guidance counselor hat you'll be wearing a lot during high school: :hat: -- or, is this one more your style: :biggrinjester: LOL!

 

Warmly, Lori D.

[Lori D.]

:blushing: You are too kind! Perhaps you didn't realize that I mostly just compile all the wonderful advice of others from this Board! So glad to have been able to be of help! :)

[Shelly in VA]

Fwiw, our experience with my dd (senior now, attending college in the fall), was that she took the PSAT, SAT, ACT, and 4 SAT subject tests. She did not take any AP exams. My reasoning there was strictly financial. :mellow: She scored very well on the PSAT/SAT/ACT, strongly on 2 of the SAT subject tests, and fine on the other 2 SAT subject tests. (She took 4 so that they showed cross-curricular achievement, and because some of the schools she applied to required 2-3 SAT II scores.) In addition, she took 2 CC classes (although only one was completed and on her transcript at the time that she applied to colleges). Although I would have considered AP tests if $$ had not been an issue, I was struck by the fact that there are schools that require SAT II scores, but no one requires AP scores.

 

Anyway -- she applied to 5 schools, was accepted into all of them, and was admitted to the honors programs at all of the schools that offer them. She is receiving scholarship offers as well. Some of the schools she applied to are considered "very selective" (UVA - only 30% of applicants are admitted) and "somewhat selective" (JMU, EMU). I mention that just to say that her transcript was strong enough to get her into those schools/programs, and her transcript really shows minimal outside validation of her grades.

 

It's scary. Terrifying, really. :ohmy: But it seems to work out. I have to believe that the strong SAT scores were the key item in her admissions package, and that the other "mommy grade" verifiers just added reassurance that the SAT wasn't a fluke score.

 

Good luck!

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I think having an SAT/ACT for university admission is standard, even at universities that say it is optional for applicants it is often required for homeschoolers.

 

After that I'm not sure there is a "best" test. If high school goes according to plan there will be, at the end, a variety of methods used. Everything from outside courses (online, dual enrollment, or tutoring), AP exams, SAT II exams, National Latin Exam, National Mythology Exam, AMC math competitions, etc. While some of these may not be linked directly to specific course grades, positive scores may serve to back up or justify parent assigned grades.

 

If you are looking at more selective schools I think the challenge is about creating a curriculum that is broad enough to match university entrance requirements, specific enough to your child's interests, and shows that they challenged themselves regularly and to the best of their abilities. Then look for a sampling of outside verification methods that fit your goals and needs if you feel you need more than admissions offices would require.

[Tullia]

I don't think there is a single "best" indicator. I'd agree with the replies that you need to look at a variety of ways to validate your student's work. What you choose to focus on should depend on what you can reasonably expect of yourself/your student and the requirements of likely college choices. The people we talked to wanted to see at least three widely recognized measures that demonstrated the level of difficulty of the curriculum and reasonable consistency among the evaluations. They considered "mommy grades" only to the extent that they were not out of line with performance on SAT/ACT/ITED. I tended to second-guess my grades, but ds' final GPA for high school was pretty much in line with his performance on standardized tests. For the schools my son considered, the return on investment for AP courses didn't justify the effort for us. Ds did not take any CLEP tests even though he could have. Instead, he was able to use his test scores to skip several introductory level courses and take more advanced courses to fulfill state "core" requirements.

[Barbara H]

 

1) assuming that your goal is to verify "mommy grades" and put together a solid college ap, rather than to receive college credit, is AP necessary, or are the SAT subject tests ok? They seem cheaper and easier to prepare for . . .

 

Great that you are planning ahead!

 

Everyone's circumstances are different, but I just wanted to say that for most people I would not jump right past the value of getting college credits. At some schools just a single course like AP biology or AP US history - might be worth $3,000 or $4,000 in credits so that's not a small thing. If your student goes to a big state school those APs might get them out of some of the bigger intro courses and on to better courses faster. Even if you fully intend your student to be in college for four years, having those credits can be worth a lot in flexibility. It may allow a student to get a double major, study abroad, or even complete part of their graduate degree while an undergrad. Particularly for students attending state universities it can be difficult in a lot of majors to graduate in four years if you don't enter with at least some credit because the better high school students will have had APs. It also means your student may not be as well prepared if they are headed into competitive courses like weeder type pre-med courses.

 

So, if your student is capable of doing very well on SAT subject tests I would think about some APs. It really depends on the sort of schools they plan to apply to. Some more selective schools will require some SAT subject tests. Many state universities and smaller private colleges particularly once you get outside of the East Coast, won't necessarily know what to make of SAT subject tests and they won't carry the weight of AP scores.

 

As far as the question of whether there is a difference in having the course or just the score - schools really care about the score. Self study is fine as long as the student gets a good score on the test. CLEP is viewed as easier and doesn't carry the reputation or weight of APs or SAT subject tests. It can be an easier way to get credits though particularly if the student is looking at less selective schools.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Great that you are planning ahead!

 

Everyone's circumstances are different, but I just wanted to say that for most people I would not jump right past the value of getting college credits. At some schools just a single course like AP biology or AP US history - might be worth $3,000 or $4,000 in credits so that's not a small thing. If your student goes to a big state school those APs might get them out of some of the bigger intro courses and on to better courses faster. Even if you fully intend your student to be in college for four years, having those credits can be worth a lot in flexibility. It may allow a student to get a double major, study abroad, or even complete part of their graduate degree while an undergrad. Particularly for students attending state universities it can be difficult in a lot of majors to graduate in four years if you don't enter with at least some credit because the better high school students will have had APs. It also means your student may not be as well prepared if they are headed into competitive courses like weeder type pre-med courses.

 

So, if your student is capable of doing very well on SAT subject tests I would think about some APs. It really depends on the sort of schools they plan to apply to. Some more selective schools will require some SAT subject tests. Many state universities and smaller private colleges particularly once you get outside of the East Coast, won't necessarily know what to make of SAT subject tests and they won't carry the weight of AP scores.

 

As far as the question of whether there is a difference in having the course or just the score - schools really care about the score. Self study is fine as long as the student gets a good score on the test. CLEP is viewed as easier and doesn't carry the reputation or weight of APs or SAT subject tests. It can be an easier way to get credits though particularly if the student is looking at less selective schools.

 

 

Thanks for this perspective. I am not dissing the value of college credits! But we do have a good CC nearby, so I was thinking that dd could take some classes there, both for credits and to show her general readiness for college-level material and the college classroom setting. Given the cost of online AP classes and the AP exams, this seems like a less expensive method of reaching that goal.

 

So if she were to have SAT/ACT, 2-3 SAT 2 scores, and several CC courses, would AP exam scores add significantly to the "package" do you think?

[swimmermom3]

You have no idea!! Ask for the book lists. Lori is a treasure trove of wonderful information and inspiration. We adore her here and frankly many of us myself included would have taken the crazy train without her support and willingness to share what worked. :001_tt1: :party:

 

Personally, I think that is stating the case rather mildly. :D

[Barbara H]

 

 

Thanks for this perspective. I am not dissing the value of college credits! But we do have a good CC nearby, so I was thinking that dd could take some classes there, both for credits and to show her general readiness for college-level material and the college classroom setting. Given the cost of online AP classes and the AP exams, this seems like a less expensive method of reaching that goal.

 

So if she were to have SAT/ACT, 2-3 SAT 2 scores, and several CC courses, would AP exam scores add significantly to the "package" do you think?

 

 

A combination of approaches is great and it sounds like you are on the right track. It depends a lot at what colleges she's considering. For students who are looking at highly selective schools, often it is easier to get credits from APs than from CC credits but for most people that's not going to be a significant consideration. The nice thing about the CC credits is that it will show she can do well in a classroom environment and that carries weight. Having some SAT subject tests or APs will also provide some standardized measurement to validate the CC grades too.

[8filltheheart]

It depends a lot at what colleges she's considering.

 

 

This quote is the key to understanding what is essential for the admissions process. Top, competitive schools are going to have stacks of over-achievers, heavy course loads, high test scores, etc. So standing out in that crowd and having them put your application in the acceptance pile while someone with similar qualifications goes into the rejection pile is not a simple answer. (these videos while revealing are rather revolting in my opinion about the entire admissions process: www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSRxfV5aphw

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldiuv7aPymo

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy30oJ3BvqY

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzQgnHi5cnA

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhZXsasuI9M

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Mb1n-hYK4

I had to get rid of the hyper links b/c it wouldn't let me post them)

 

Admissions to non-tippy top schools is not so difficult. I have had students accepted with very little outside verification and still receive scholarship offers. (dd had an avg ACT score and 2 outside CC classes) Some majors within individual schools are going to be harder to be accepted into compared to others (admissions even within an engineering dept may vary from one program to another.)

 

But over all, I have come down to helping my students be the best "them" they can be and then trying to find schools to match who they are and their qualifications vs. trying make my student into a school's desired applicant.

[Chrysalis Academy]

ETA: Responding to Barbara H's post: That sounds reasonable. I have to admit, I got a bad case of sticker shock when I checked out the AP classes at PA Homeschool!

[Nscribe]

(these videos while revealing are rather revolting in my opinion about the entire admissions process: www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSRxfV5aphw

....

But over all, I have come down to helping my students be the best "them" they can be and then trying to find schools to match who they are and their qualifications vs. trying make my student into a school's desired applicant.

 

Although the videos confirmed my general understanding of the way admissions works at many schools, I must confess it is a bit surreal to think about 4 years of a young persons life taken apart.

 

An aside: One thing that really bugs me is the whole "leadership" thing. I am active in facilitating a lot of youth groups (and some adult groups) two problems often occur. 1. Too many "leaders" and no one to do, follow, execute. 2. The named leader is not the one who makes the magic happen, in many cases. Some of the most outstanding kids are the ones who are not the named leader and have to demonstrate compromise, negotiation and persuasion to get the job done. When leadership is recognized by titles and not actions it can be very deceptive.

 

The take away from the videos is that tests matter, they hold the door open.

[swimmermom3]

This quote is the key to understanding what is essential for the admissions process. Top, competitive schools are going to have stacks of over-achievers, heavy course loads, high test scores, etc. So standing out in that crowd and having them put your application in the acceptance pile while someone with similar qualifications goes into the rejection pile is not a simple answer. (these videos while revealing are rather revolting in my opinion about the entire admissions process: www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSRxfV5aphw

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldiuv7aPymo

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy30oJ3BvqY

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzQgnHi5cnA

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhZXsasuI9M

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Mb1n-hYK4

I had to get rid of the hyper links b/c it wouldn't let me post them)

 

Admissions to non-tippy top schools is not so difficult. I have had students accepted with very little outside verification and still receive scholarship offers. (dd had an avg ACT score and 2 outside CC classes) Some majors within individual schools are going to be harder to be accepted into compared to others (admissions even within an engineering dept may vary from one program to another.)

 

But over all, I have come down to helping my students be the best "them" they can be and then trying to find schools to match who they are and their qualifications vs. trying make my student into a school's desired applicant.

 

That was an eye-opening experience.

 

Ms. Andrews did look at the number of AP courses taken and the scores reported, which conflicts with Stanford's stated policy with regards to AP courses.

[elizabeth]

My cousin is on the admissions committee at ******** . She spoke with me very frankly about test scores and said that although the official policy at her alma mater is test scores optional that does not mean they are dispositive. However, given a choice between student a and b if b has a high SAT they are keeping B in the first round and tossing a right out. This is a rather selective Uni in California. IF there is not merit aid that is substantial to go along with admission for us it is a nonstarter. Our reach school was Fordham. Dd was admitted and granted the highest amount of merit aid possible. She would love it but due to her youth I would need to go as well and sadly my RA is active. Walking with a cane in the Bronx is a little more than I can do this fall as I am getting a knee replacement in May. Everything will work out as it should, she is a good student and fine person with more than a little personality! All will be well. I chant it daily like a mantra to keep myself from being THAT mother. :laugh:

[Chrysalis Academy]

This quote is the key to understanding what is essential for the admissions process. Top, competitive schools are going to have stacks of over-achievers, heavy course loads, high test scores, etc. So standing out in that crowd and having them put your application in the acceptance pile while someone with similar qualifications goes into the rejection pile is not a simple answer. (these videos while revealing are rather revolting in my opinion about the entire admissions process: www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSRxfV5aphw

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldiuv7aPymo

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy30oJ3BvqY

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzQgnHi5cnA

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhZXsasuI9M

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Mb1n-hYK4

I had to get rid of the hyper links b/c it wouldn't let me post them)

 

Admissions to non-tippy top schools is not so difficult. I have had students accepted with very little outside verification and still receive scholarship offers. (dd had an avg ACT score and 2 outside CC classes) Some majors within individual schools are going to be harder to be accepted into compared to others (admissions even within an engineering dept may vary from one program to another.)

 

But over all, I have come down to helping my students be the best "them" they can be and then trying to find schools to match who they are and their qualifications vs. trying make my student into a school's desired applicant.

 

 

 

Just watched some of these - OMG, where is the "puking in a bucket" icon????? :ack2: :ack2: :ack2:

 

So, she keeps talking about how she assesses students in comparison to their peers - where do they stand in class ranking, is the school competitive, how many APs are their peers taking, etc. How does that work with homeschool students? Who are their peers? Who are they being compared to?

[Penelope]

Just watched some of these - OMG, where is the "puking in a bucket" icon????? :ack2: :ack2: :ack2:

 

 

 

No kidding. I've just been reading along, gleaning the wisdom.

 

And I was okay watching the videos, thinking, it's not so different from "back in the day".

 

Until the part about the student who couldn't possibly be the president of all those clubs. But instead should be translating short stories about the environment into German, which he taught himself. :blink: :rolleyes:

 

My kids are doomed. DOOMED! :rofl:

[Arcadia]

So, she keeps talking about how she assesses students in comparison to their peers - where do they stand in class ranking, is the school competitive, how many APs are their peers taking, etc. How does that work with homeschool students? Who are their peers? Who are they being compared to?

 

 

My wild guess is that the homeschool students are being compared to their neighborhood peers. I am still wondering why I have to key in my California zip code into Stanford's net price calculator. While I did that calculator for fun with my kids being still young, I can't help but feel discriminated for living in a pricier zip code :confused1:

[shanvan]

I have not watched the links, and now I'm afraid too. Maybe tomorrow in the light of day when I'm not so tired and haunted by the shadows of things undone and doubts of the evening. Maybe then I'll be strong enough, but not now.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I have not watched the links, and now I'm afraid too. Maybe tomorrow in the light of day when I'm not so tired and haunted by the shadows of things undone and doubts of the evening. Maybe then I'll be strong enough, but not now.

 

 

This is a wise decision. We had a very bad.terrible.awful.horrible.day. I thought a few videos would help me regain perspective. :ohmy: :scared: :svengo:

 

I am now afraid to fall asleep for fear of what college admissions dreams await me.

 

 

Yes, waiting until morning is a wise decision. Or never. That might be even better. ;)

[Nscribe]

My wild guess is that the homeschool students are being compared to their neighborhood peers.

 

Which makes it very hard when you live in a zip with demographics like high density of PhDs, higher incomes, higher rated schools and so forth. Add to it, more homeschoolers are out there applying to colleges in greater numbers and it is getting tougher. :wacko:

[swimmermom3]

My cousin is on the admissions committee at ******** . She spoke with me very frankly about test scores and said that although the official policy at her alma mater is test scores optional that does not mean they are dispositive. However, given a choice between student a and b if b has a high SAT they are keeping B in the first round and tossing a right out. This is a rather selective Uni in California. IF there is not merit aid that is substantial to go along with admission for us it is a nonstarter. Our reach school was Fordham. Dd was admitted and granted the highest amount of merit aid possible. She would love it but due to her youth I would need to go as well and sadly my RA is active. Walking with a cane in the Bronx is a little more than I can do this fall as I am getting a knee replacement in May. Everything will work out as it should, she is a good student and fine person with more than a little personality! All will be well. I chant it daily like a mantra to keep myself from being THAT mother. :laugh:

 

 

You have done a remarkably good job to get her this far and "all will be well." May that knee replacement work beautifully.

 

Thank you for sharing your wisdom. Sometimes I sink into my fairytale world of what education "should be" and need a reminder of the realities.

[quark]

This is a wise decision. We had a very bad.terrible.awful.horrible.day. I thought a few videos would help me regain perspective. :ohmy: :scared: :svengo:

 

I am now afraid to fall asleep for fear of what college admissions dreams await me.

 

 

Yes, waiting until morning is a wise decision. Or never. That might be even better. ;)

 

 

I was going to watch them but now am wondering if I should? :tongue_smilie: Love your little ghostie.

[8filltheheart]

I have not watched the links, and now I'm afraid too. Maybe tomorrow in the light of day when I'm not so tired and haunted by the shadows of things undone and doubts of the evening. Maybe then I'll be strong enough, but not now.

 

I didn't post the links to freak people out. I guess I have the advantage of having a college grad and another student that was accepted to every school she applied to. Neither one had ever taken an AP exam, both had avg test scores. One had 18 university credit hrs and one had 6 CC credits.

 

I watched the videos bc our 11th grader had originally planned on applying to really competitive schools. He has 2 APs with 5s (which offer the equivalent of 16 college credit hrs at most universities.) At the end of next yr, he will have multiple 300 university level math and science credits next yr.

 

BUT........ds is dyslexic. He has never needed extra time for any tests, so he doesn't qualify for extra time on the SAT/ACT. His CR/reading/science reasoning scores do not reflect his real abilities at all b/c he can't read fast enough for the entire 3 hrs.

 

His scores in those areas are high avg and definitely don't start with a 7. With the gate-keeping at the top schools being like they are in the videos, he decided that it isn't worth the angst to go that route. He is a fabulous student and he is planning visits to schools that really want him. Now that he has made that decision, my stress level has gone way down. He is also very happy with the decision. He has an appt with the head of the dept at one university in a few weeks (his current top choice school) and can't wait to talk about research opportunities for undergrads, etc.

 

Anyway, all that to say that we don't have to groom our kids to apply to the Stanfords out there nor do we have to stress them out trying to make them perform in ways that are not realistic to their abilities. There are great universities that do not have such a narrow view on student applications. My older kids have been accepted to some of them. I have zero concerns about ds being accepted at the schools he is now considering and think he might actually be a strong contender for their top scholarship offers.

 

So....if your heart is set on the extremely competitive top schools.....you are going to face the roller coaster that is the admission process into them. However, your student doesn't have to climb aboard that ride. They can make the decision to be themselves and look for schools that match their interests, needs, goals, abilities, and the process is completely different (not quite the lazy river, but definitely not the G-force roller coaster either.)

 

Hope that encourages someone.

[at the beach]

Are these the videos from the college admissions coach who used to be a Stanford admissions officer? If so, I viewed these after seeing a link on hs2coll. She's a coach and makes her $ obtaining clients. The girl with the average scores who was so interesting because she had a cooking blog and took cooking classes overseas had mediocre language scores--in her area of interest--from what I recall.

 

They aren't called lottery schools for nothing. I don't think it's wise to get married to the idea there is one perfect school or to plan for top tier school acceptance.

[snowbeltmom]

Just watched some of these - OMG, where is the "puking in a bucket" icon????? :ack2: :ack2: :ack2:

 

So, she keeps talking about how she assesses students in comparison to their peers - where do they stand in class ranking, is the school competitive, how many APs are their peers taking, etc. How does that work with homeschool students? Who are their peers? Who are they being compared to?

I wondered about the bolded comment above as well. A student's gpa, by itself, did not appear to carry much weight - it needed to be compared to his classmates.

 

Did anyone else also think that more weight was placed on SAT scores than ACT scores? I know that colleges say they treat each equally and they don't prefer one test over another, but the SAT seemed more important than the ACT in those videos.

[8filltheheart]

Are these the videos from the college admissions coach who used to be a Stanford admissions officer? If so, I viewed these after seeing a link on hs2coll. She's a coach and makes her $ obtaining clients. The girl with the average scores who was so interesting because she had a cooking blog and took cooking classes overseas had mediocre language scores--in her area of interest--from what I recall.

 

They aren't called lottery schools for nothing. I don't think it's wise to get married to the idea there is one perfect school or to plan for top tier school acceptance.

 

Yes, those are the ones. She also refers to the poor kid with multiple 800 subject test scores as a skewed learner b/c he has a couple of scores that are in the low to mid 700s. Jeepers. I found her comments on that poor kid completely off-putting. The things that captured her enthusiasm and the things she critiqued left me rolling my eyes and convinced me that the process is not a "friendly" one.

[snowbeltmom]

The things that captured her enthusiasm and the things she critiqued left me rolling my eyes and convinced me that the process is not a "friendly" one.

:iagree: It also left me questioning the intelligence of admission officers. I thought many of her comments were completely asinine.

[KYKaren]

Hi Elizabeth,

Like others, I am checking back regularly to see if you have posted your transcript/book lists. Pretty please?

 

Thanks,

Karen

 

PS--And a huge congratulations to you and yoru daughter for all those years of hard work. So glad they have been recognized and rewarded.

[creekland]

 

Anyway, all that to say that we don't have to groom our kids to apply to the Stanfords out there nor do we have to stress them out trying to make them perform in ways that are not realistic to their abilities. There are great universities that do not have such a narrow view on student applications. My older kids have been accepted to some of them. I have zero concerns about ds being accepted at the schools he is now considering and think he might actually be a strong contender for their top scholarship offers.

 

So....if your heart is set on the extremely competitive top schools.....you are going to face the roller coaster that is the admission process into them. However, your student doesn't have to climb aboard that ride. They can make the decision to be themselves and look for schools that match their interests, needs, goals, abilities, and the process is completely different (not quite the lazy river, but definitely not the G-force roller coaster either.)

 

Hope that encourages someone.

 

We opted to skip the extremely competitive schools with no regrets. IMO, it's best to find a school that fits the student.

[shanvan]

I didn't post the links to freak people out. I guess I have the advantage of having a college grad and another student that was accepted to every school she applied to. Neither one had ever taken an AP exam, both had avg test scores. One had 18 university credit hrs and one had 6 CC credits.

 

I watched the videos bc our 11th grader had originally planned on applying to really competitive schools. He has 2 APs with 5s (which offer the equivalent of 16 college credit hrs at most universities.) At the end of next yr, he will have multiple 300 university level math and science credits next yr.

 

BUT........ds is dyslexic. He has never needed extra time for any tests, so he doesn't qualify for extra time on the SAT/ACT. His CR/reading/science reasoning scores do not reflect his real abilities at all b/c he can't read fast enough for the entire 3 hrs.

 

His scores in those areas are high avg and definitely don't start with a 7. With the gate-keeping at the top schools being like they are in the videos, he decided that it isn't worth the angst to go that route. He is a fabulous student and he is planning visits to schools that really want him. Now that he has made that decision, my stress level has gone way down. He is also very happy with the decision. He has an appt with the head of the dept at one university in a few weeks (his current top choice school) and can't wait to talk about research opportunities for undergrads, etc.

 

Anyway, all that to say that we don't have to groom our kids to apply to the Stanfords out there nor do we have to stress them out trying to make them perform in ways that are not realistic to their abilities. There are great universities that do not have such a narrow view on student applications. My older kids have been accepted to some of them. I have zero concerns about ds being accepted at the schools he is now considering and think he might actually be a strong contender for their top scholarship offers.

 

So....if your heart is set on the extremely competitive top schools.....you are going to face the roller coaster that is the admission process into them. However, your student doesn't have to climb aboard that ride. They can make the decision to be themselves and look for schools that match their interests, needs, goals, abilities, and the process is completely different (not quite the lazy river, but definitely not the G-force roller coaster either.)

 

Hope that encourages someone.

 

Many things can freak me out if I'm feeling tired and overwhelmed. We will likely be skipping the super competitive schools (I think). Still, I knew if I watched those videos last night my mind would have me thinking I have to worry that much about every school he applies to. It's the way I'm wired. I don't look up medical problems on the 'net for that reason. I just know myself well enough to limit stress my mind will cause me!

 

I also have concerns about Ds and testing. He has never taken a standardized test. The National Latin exam this spring will be his first test that is sent off and scored by someone else. He will be taking a class to prepare for PSAT/SAT, so he's going to have lots of chances to practice. He's a bright kid, but he often does stupid things on tests that cause him to miss 5-10 points and often those silly mistakes end up making the difference b/t average and excellent. I worry that his test scores will not truly reflect his abilities. But, I suppose that's true for many kids. He's only in 9th, so he's got time to mature too. It's been a rough year for us, and we've had many of the problems mentioned in that thread about why 9th can be so difficult.

 

Anyway, with all that running through my head I avoided the videos last night, but I still appreciate the inside look and all the helpful info on this board.

[shanvan]

Hi Elizabeth,

Like others, I am checking back regularly to see if you have posted your transcript/book lists. Pretty please?

 

Thanks,

Karen

 

PS--And a huge congratulations to you and yoru daughter for all those years of hard work. So glad they have been recognized and rewarded.

 

:iagree:

[Arcadia]

A student's gpa, by itself, did not appear to carry much weight - it needed to be compared to his classmates.

 

There is grade inflation as well as aggressive parents here. There is a case now of a parent sueing the school district because his son was drop from honors class for cheating.

A good GPA substantiated by good SAT scores is still being considered. Students coming out of a particular high school with very good GPA scores but average SAT scores would make a local admission officer think across board grade inflation in that high school.

 

Silicon Valley has some very good public high schools. I wouldn't be surprise if the former Stanford admission officer already have some preconceived notions on the county's high schools.

[quark]

:iagree: It also left me questioning the intelligence of admission officers. I thought many of her comments were completely asinine.

 

 

:rofl: You almost made me spit out my coffee. I saw this posted on hs2coll too and had bookmarked the link to watch later but forgot to till 8 posted it here again. Actually found some of the videos illuminating because I am new to the whole "researching the admission process" thing. But I was also put off by the comparison among classmates and the weird things that she thought made the student interesting. I thought she was reading too much into that origami loving applicant presenting an interesting portfolio for example, but I also found her take on having just one AP (although it was a 5 on the Calc BC) interesting.

[elegantlion]

 

 

Anyway, all that to say that we don't have to groom our kids to apply to the Stanfords out there nor do we have to stress them out trying to make them perform in ways that are not realistic to their abilities. There are great universities that do not have such a narrow view on student applications. My older kids have been accepted to some of them. I have zero concerns about ds being accepted at the schools he is now considering and think he might actually be a strong contender for their top scholarship offers.

 

So....if your heart is set on the extremely competitive top schools.....you are going to face the roller coaster that is the admission process into them. However, your student doesn't have to climb aboard that ride. They can make the decision to be themselves and look for schools that match their interests, needs, goals, abilities, and the process is completely different (not quite the lazy river, but definitely not the G-force roller coaster either.)

 

Hope that encourages someone.

 

 

I'm having a bad kind of week that could only get worse by watching those videos. So I shall abstain at this point. At this point ds is going for the G-force ride anyway. *sigh*

 

Many things can freak me out if I'm feeling tired and overwhelmed. We will likely be skipping the super competitive schools (I think). Still, I knew if I watched those videos last night my mind would have me thinking I have to worry that much about every school he applies to. It's the way I'm wired. I don't look up medical problems on the 'net for that reason. I just know myself well enough to limit stress my mind will cause me!

 

I also have concerns about Ds and testing. He has never taken a standardized test. The National Latin exam this spring will be his first test that is sent off and scored by someone else. He will be taking a class to prepare for PSAT/SAT, so he's going to have lots of chances to practice. He's a bright kid, but he often does stupid things on tests that cause him to miss 5-10 points and often those silly mistakes end up making the difference b/t average and excellent. I worry that his test scores will not truly reflect his abilities. But, I suppose that's true for many kids. He's only in 9th, so he's got time to mature too. It's been a rough year for us, and we've had many of the problems mentioned in that thread about why 9th can be so difficult.

 

Anyway, with all that running through my head I avoided the videos last night, but I still appreciate the inside look and all the helpful info on this board.

 

 

I've spent the last few hours looking at options for ds. He's not a great tester either. I'm going to have him take a practice ACT this year at home. ACT is more common in our area and our local university has a testing center that does CLEP testing as well. Both of the universities he's interested in at this point accept CLEP, which may be the route we take.

 

It's hard to believe, but in a few years we'll be posting about our kids college acceptances and worrying about different things. GAH! Shanvan, we'll get through this. Thankfully with the assistance of many of the people on this thread.

[swimmermom3]

I'm having a bad kind of week that could only get worse by watching those videos. So I shall abstain at this point. At this point ds is going for the G-force ride anyway. *sigh*

 

 

 

I've spent the last few hours looking at options for ds. He's not a great tester either. I'm going to have him take a practice ACT this year at home. ACT is more common in our area and our local university has a testing center that does CLEP testing as well. Both of the universities he's interested in at this point accept CLEP, which may be the route we take.

 

It's hard to believe, but in a few years we'll be posting about our kids college acceptances and worrying about different things. GAH! Shanvan, we'll get through this. Thankfully with the assistance of many of the people on this thread.

 

 

Paula,

 

I must be having a dense week because the videos didn't really bug me or ds. Maybe years of club swimming make one roll one's eyes at too much craziness, but we actually felt like we took away some info we could use.

 

I hope your week gets better. :grouphug:

[8filltheheart]

 

 

I'm having a bad kind of week that could only get worse by watching those videos. So I shall abstain at this point. At this point ds is going for the G-force ride anyway. *sigh*

 

 

 

I've spent the last few hours looking at options for ds. He's not a great tester either. I'm going to have him take a practice ACT this year at home. ACT is more common in our area and our local university has a testing center that does CLEP testing as well. Both of the universities he's interested in at this point accept CLEP, which may be the route we take.

 

It's hard to believe, but in a few years we'll be posting about our kids college acceptances and worrying about different things. GAH! Shanvan, we'll get through this. Thankfully with the assistance of many of the people on this thread.

 

 

Paula, if the schools your ds is interested in accept CLEP credit, what you see in the videos will probably not be applicable. Most schools like Stanford are not going to give credit for CLEP. Many of the top schools even restrict outside credit, some not even allowing credit for APs or transfer credits from CC or even other universities.

 

Really, there is "hierarchy of intensity" (or insanity, depending on your POV ;) ) in the college application process.

 

 

[Penelope]

Are these the videos from the college admissions coach who used to be a Stanford admissions officer? If so, I viewed these after seeing a link on hs2coll. She's a coach and makes her $ obtaining clients. The girl with the average scores who was so interesting because she had a cooking blog and took cooking classes overseas had mediocre language scores--in her area of interest--from what I recall.

 

They aren't called lottery schools for nothing. I don't think it's wise to get married to the idea there is one perfect school or to plan for top tier school acceptance.

 

I think this may be something to remember.

 

I do not know whether those videos are accurate or not as to what all competitive schools are thinking or looking for when they look at applications.

 

I mean, when she's going through them, I had a hard time even getting a sense at which ones would definitely be getting into a second look or interview pool pile.

 

They are probably skewed some to play on parent fears, to make you think that even your valedictorian with 6 5-scoring APs and 2300 on the SATs still needs her help. ;)

 

 

But I won't, because now I know that what I need to do is have my high schooler go on some expensive overseas trips to take touristy classes and start learning origami. Maybe this could be combined in one trip. Oh, the possibilities.

[Chrysalis Academy]

This has all been very enlightening. My philosophy up to this point has been to educate my children such that they would have the maximum number of choices - so that nothing I do, during the elementary and middle school years, leads to doors being closed for them. I can remember my college profs telling me, when I was deciding which grad schools to apply to, "Aim high - it's always easier to slide down the pyramid to the place where you are comfortable than to spend your whole career trying to claw your way up." And I know they are right. Even though I no longer work in the field I got my PhD in, the fact that I *have* a PhD from MIT has opened many doors for me, whether deservedly or not.

 

So we put a lot of energy into math and writing, and dd is on track to finish Algebra 1 in 8th, and we're planning 4 years of English, History, Math & Science in high school. Stuff like that. She also has a couple of extracurricular interests that she pursues. I've always figured that my job is to see that she has a solid foundation that doesn't limit her future choices.

 

But what I'm realizing is that we will have to make choice in high school that may close some doors. If we choose to pursue a solid, sane, high school education, but don't consciously choose to tailor ourselves to the "top" schools, those doors may not be open. And really? I'm cool with that. Of course, if she decides she wants it, I will support her and try and guide her through it, but I can't see any value in pushing her into having a Stanford-impressing high school portfolio. The price would be too high for whatever the elusive payoff might be.

 

And I do believe that there are many different paths. As someone who has spent my entire (adult) lifetime leaping off the obvious path that was before me, and choosing to follow twisty, windy paths that have led to really good things, I'm fine with that. I just don't see the rat race working for our family.

 

I have the book Colleges that Change Lives. That's inspiring. My own experience, of being accepted to MIT out of a Cal State, is inspiring. The fact that we have a great cc nearby, and that if she does two years there she can do a garunteed transfer to a UC, makes me feel safe. We'll be ok.

 

Of course, I still have to figure out which tests to take, when, and in what combination to get where she wants to go, but having a clear vision of the paths, the alternatives, and the tradeoffs will really help with making that decision, when the time is right. So thanks!

[Lori D.]

... If we choose to pursue a solid, sane, high school education, but don't consciously choose to tailor ourselves to the "top" schools, those doors may not be open. And really? I'm cool with that. Of course, if she decides she wants it, I will support her and try and guide her through it, but I can't see any value in pushing her into having a Stanford-impressing high school portfolio. The price would be too high for whatever the elusive payoff might be.

 

And I do believe that there are many different paths. As someone who has spent my entire (adult) lifetime leaping off the obvious path that was before me, and choosing to follow twisty, windy paths that have led to really good things, I'm fine with that. I just don't see the rat race working for our family.

 

I have the book Colleges that Change Lives. That's inspiring...

 

 

 

SO glad to hear you say this! :)

 

I've been biting my tongue, but really wanting to reassure people to NOT freak out about those videos. Yes, there are some helpful bits in those videos (and I am very glad you posted those, 8FillTheHeart! :)) Esp. helpful was to learn that colleges like to see more than just academics, they want to see you are an interesting student who will contribute to their campus, and so a student without the highest of academics still has the opportunity to apply and be accepted.

 

BUT, it's also important to realize there are MANY wonderful colleges out there that will help your student blossom. And isn't THAT what we're really after? An institution that will help and encourage our students to be successful and happy in their career and life choices? If the ivy-league is naturally a good match up for your student, wonderful! That will be a stepping stone to a successful future for the student. But if the ivy is not the best fit, then far better to spend your time finding that good match up, rather than trying to "force fit" a student into the very limited profile of an uber-picky-ivy-league-school.

 

 

Wishing you success and joy, and the BEST of luck to all of you and your DC! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Grantmom]

The woman in the video described case study #5, who had 800 on math and 800 on writing on her SAT, a 5 on AP Calc BC, a 3.98 GPA (unweighted), 790 on Math SAT 2, etc, etc, she actually said "so this person is relatively competitive". Wow, relatively competitive?? Sheesh.

[Grantmom]

I find the case study 6 very disturbing. She is saying this person is the most competitive academically that he can be, and he has a ton of extracurriculars too, and yet she is saying well I want to know does he have a personality, is he interesting? Is this a popularity contest?