Arming (some) school staff? What do you think of this article?

[TracyP]

I have never seen an establishment in my life that advertises they are a "gun free zone," and mercifully live in an area where concealed gun permits are relatively hard to get, but if you are asking me how I would feel? I would feel a lot safer being in a place where guns were prohibited by law that in a place where everyone was packing.

 

Not even a close call.

 

Bill

 

 

I have never been anywhere in my life where "everyone was packing"

 

I suppose I wouldn't feel safe there, either.

[FairProspects]

 

I have never been anywhere in my life where "everyone was packing"

 

I suppose I wouldn't feel safe there, either.

 

I suspect I've been a lot of places where multiple people were packing. I just didn't know it because of concealed carry laws. This is probably true for a lot of us.

[Spy Car]

 

Yeah, he or she might have. It happens.

 

But that doesn't negate the fact that just possibly no one would would have died that day at that school if a trained armed officer had been there. You're right. We will never know.

 

You make it sound like cops are inhuman machines. They are husbands, wives, sons, daughters, moms and dads. They aren't out to terrorize little kids. To imply such is just wrong.

 

Who do you call when there is danger?

 

You alone are pushing the red herring that I somehow believe cops are the enemy or inhuman machines. I wish you would get off it. I have implied no such thing. This is your invention and, frankly, it is a contemptible tactic.

 

Bill

[Parrothead]

You alone are pushing the red herring that I somehow believe cops are the enemy or inhuman machines. I wish you would get off it. I have implied know such thing. This is your invention and, frankly, it is a contemptible tactic.

 

Bill

You are the one saying cops are scary.

[Parrothead]

I'm done. You are not worth getting banned over.

[Spy Car]

 

 

I have never been anywhere in my life where "everyone was packing"

 

I suppose I wouldn't feel safe there, either.

 

 

Is there a certain percentage point of people packing that makes you feel safe (or unsafe)?

 

Where is "the breaking point?" Would knowing half an audience was packing packing make you feel unsafe? Or more safe? Or would it be best if only 2% were armed?

 

Because I don't get it.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

 

You are the one saying cops are scary.

 

 

I think armed officers (ones carrying guns) patrolling schools could frighten young children. It is quite a leap to suggest that I believe those officers have a desire to terrorize children, or that they are inhuman beings. That is crazy and beneath contempt as a debate tactic.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

[TracyP]

Is there a certain percentage point of people packing that makes you feel safe (or unsafe)? Where is "the breaking point?" Would knowing half an audience was packing packing make you feel unsafe? Or more safe? Or would it be best if only 2% were armed? Because I don't get it. Bill

 

Numbers have nothing to do with it. It is all about who has access to the guns. But I have military and law enforcement family. I have hunted since I was little kid. Guns do not scare me. Guns in the hands of crazy people terrify me and I want the right to protect myself from them.

 

I want to say that I completely support a ban on assault weapons. I think everyone who buys any gun should be background checked. That is not what this is about. I said upthread that I do not like the idea of having guns in schools, but I really think that this may be a valid way to keep kids safe. Crazy people are still going to get guns. As long as that is true, sane people should be able to defend themselves.

[Spy Car]

 

 

Numbers have nothing to do with it. It is all about who has access to the guns. But I have military and law enforcement family. I have hunted since I was little kid. Guns do not scare me. Guns in the hands of crazy people terrify me and I want the right to protect myself from them.

 

But you said that if everyone was armed in an audience you would feel unsafe. So where is the tipping point? How many people in a crowd being armed makes you feel safe? At what point do the numbers tip?

 

I answered your question. You could answer mine.

 

I want to say that I completely support a ban on assault weapons. I think everyone who buys any gun should be background checked. That is not what this is about. I said upthread that I do not like the idea of having guns in schools, but I really think that this may be a valid way to keep kids safe. Crazy people are still going to get guns. As long as that is true, sane people should be able to defend themselves.

 

It still leave the question of how many armed individuals in a crowd add to your security vs adding to your insecurity?

 

Bill

[TracyP]

But you said that if everyone was armed in an audience you would feel unsafe. So where is the tipping point? How many people in a crowd being armed makes you feel safe? At what point do the numbers tip?

 

I answered your question. You could answer mine.

 

 

 

It still leave the question of how many armed individuals in a crowd add to your security vs adding to your insecurity?

 

Bill

Well, I take it back. If everyone in the audience was adaquetely trained I would feel perfectly safe. I was responding in that way because you were setting up a straw man. I would choose a truly gun free zone over a place where everybody was packing. Unfortunately those aren't the two options we have.

 

I do not want to quibble over things like this and miss the larger point. In America, where guns are going to continue to remain readily available, I think this is an option that needs to be considered.

[Kirch]

 

 

Or he might have been shot himself, or maybe even more children might have died in the shoot-out. Who knows?

 

As a parent I think it would be scary for young children to see an armed officer patrolling our otherwise peaceful elementary school. I think it would create fear in young children and an create an impression that only guns and armed officers would keep them safe. And amplify the idea that this is a dangerous world all out of proportion to the actual threat.

 

Bill

 

 

The only way I can see this as scary for kids is if parents and/or teachers are telling the kids that the officer is there in case a bad guy comes in and tries to shoot people (or hurt people or whatever). Seeing a police officer in the school is unlikely to faze most of them any more than seeing an officer out & about in the community. If they ask (and there would probably be more questions at first, but after that most kids would take it for granted as normal) you just tell them that he's there to help keep everyone safe, which would be my answer if my child asked why he was at the park or wherever as well. Most kids will be just fine with that answer--ime they are fascinated and excited about seeing officers in public. There's no reason for it to be otherwise if they're in schools unless we make it so.

[bobbeym]

I think it's a great idea, but then again, I do live in Texas, and our school district already has uniformed and armed PD officers assigned to each of our schools. Drug, crime, and violence rates without our ISD are very low for being near Houston. DS19 and I were talking about this last night, and he said in all his years of high school, there were only 2 incidents he could recall. One was a gun on campus, which turned out to be a look-alike toy, and the other was a false bomb threat.

 

I can't help but wonder if it IS the fact that we have trained PD at the schools that helps keep it that way.

[Spy Car]

 

 

The only way I can see this as scary for kids is if parents and/or teachers are telling the kids that the officer is there in case a bad guy comes in and tries to shoot people (or hurt people or whatever). Seeing a police officer in the school is unlikely to faze most of them any more than seeing an officer out & about in the community. If they ask (and there would probably be more questions at first, but after that most kids would take it for granted as normal) you just tell them that he's there to help keep everyone safe, which would be my answer if my child asked why he was at the park or wherever as well. Most kids will be just fine with that answer--ime they are fascinated and excited about seeing officers in public. There's no reason for it to be otherwise if they're in schools unless we make it so.

 

 

Do you think that little kids might not have conversations that included the idea that armed officers were patrolling their school in case a bad guy came in and tried to shoot them? In my estimation this would certainly happen.

 

And some children might accept the situation with ease, while others might not. When I think of the atmosphere at our sweet little elementary school I can't imagine how the presence of an armed officer would make it seem like a safer or more secure place to young children. I really don't.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

[TravelingChris]

If we had a cop in the school, almost all of the time they would be doing other things than apprehending shooters. I am like Chucki, I have no fears of law enforcement or military personnel who are armed. Yes, did it faze me the first time I went into an airport with soldiers with rifles and also museums like that- yes. But I quickly got over it. Considering there were lots of terrorist attacks while I spent three years in Europe. Security was a blessing, not a curse. Unfortunately, the Beslan school, the Madrid train, the London buses and tubes, the Turkish van, etc, did not have adequate security. All these incidents happened in my three years in Europe. So yes, I didn't mind the armed soldiers at the airports who were keeping order. Better than what happened a few years later at the Russian airport.

[TravelingChris]

Oh and that list of school shootings is definitely too small. I know of one that occurred here locally that is not on the list. HOw many others have occured that aren't on the list, I have no idea.

[Rosie_0801]

I think people should be nicer to each other. People are a lot less likely to shoot someone they like. Tricky though, because there is so much stress on people.

[LucyStoner]

If I didn't ALREADY homeschool, I would start immediately if my district armed the teachers.

[Dmmetler]

Do you think that little kids might not have conversations that included the idea that armed officers were patrolling their school in case a bad guy came in and tried to shoot them? In my estimation this would certainly happen.

 

And some children might accept the situation with ease, while others might not. When I think of the atmosphere at our sweet little elementary school I can't imagine how the presence of an armed officer would make it seem like a safer or more secure place to young children. I really don't.

 

Bill

 

 

When the police station moved into our school, we simply explained to the kids that the police officers were our friends, and that they needed the space so that people knew where to find them and where to call if they needed them. It didn't take long before we had police officers sitting at the tables with the kids at lunch, coming in and playing basketball with the kids during PE, the K-9 dog reading with the kids in the library, etc. The kids weren't at all scared or upset by the police officers.

[Caroline]

What were the demographics of the school? Kids from different backgrounds have different feelings about the police.

 

 

 

 

When the police station moved into our school, we simply explained to the kids that the police officers were our friends, and that they needed the space so that people knew where to find them and where to call if they needed them. It didn't take long before we had police officers sitting at the tables with the kids at lunch, coming in and playing basketball with the kids during PE, the K-9 dog reading with the kids in the library, etc. The kids weren't at all scared or upset by the police officers.

[Dmmetler]

What were the demographics of the school? Kids from different backgrounds have different feelings about the police.

 

 

Very, very low income, mostly HUD project housing, many families with members in jail or prison. So if OUR kids quickly accepted the police, I can't imagine that kids without as much baggage as they had would do so.

[Kirch]

 

 

Do you think that little kids might not have conversations that included the idea that armed officers were patrolling their school in case a bad guy came in and tried to shoot them? In my estimation this would certainly happen.

 

And some children might accept the situation with ease, while others might not. When I think of the atmosphere at our sweet little elementary school I can't imagine how the presence of an armed officer would make it seem like a safer or more secure place to young children. I really don't.

 

Bill

 

Maybe at first, especially if it happens soon enough to connect it with this shooting. But I really don't think it would last long. Sure, there might be kids trying to scare each other--I still remember the HORROR stories passed around my elementary school regarding the size of the paddle in the principal's office and how painful it was. But really, beyond possibly an initial frenzy of discussion, the vast majority of kids wouldn't give it much thought. By the next year, it wouldn't even ping on their radars as unusual or scary. Again--unless the adults in their lives *make* it that way. Just like kids aren't fazed by fire extinguishers or sprinklers or fire alarms in school buildings. Those things don't make kids worry about fires. They either don't notice them at all because they're used to them or they actually make kids feel safer and worry less about fires. Police officers would be the same thing.

[JennyD]

After the Empire State building shooting, in which all nine bystanders injured were hit by police gunfire, there were a number of articles about how very difficult it is for even highly trained law enforcement agents in a crisis situation to actually hit the person at whom they are aiming. Here's one:

 

http://www.cbsnews.c...d (CBSNews.com)

 

So, maybe a police officer is better than no one, but OTOH the notion that armed school officers will be able to dispatch bad guys without also injuring and/or killing some children in the process is clearly a fantasy. And the notion of arming schoolteachers is, IMNSHO, flat-out insane.

[Murphy101]

OP here. I realize these threads are bound to take on lives of their own.

But I just have to step in once more and say that the article does not suggest that individual teachers carry guns.

The suggestion discussed in the article is the arming of one trained staff member (something akin to an air marshall).

The suggestion is that armed criminals would be more likely to think twice about attacking schools if they knew someone on campus was armed and trained to protect the students and staff.

 

I have absolutely no idea why anyone would think that to be the case.

It is far more likely that they will simply either

A. Chose a school with no guard or a less regarded system

And or

B. make a note in their plan of action to take out the "someone" that is armed, whoever that might be.

 

If they don't know, they should pack more heat. The CT shooter had a bulletproof vest on, iirc from a recent report. (not that any of them appear worth a toot for accuracy. :/)

 

But the world is a very dangerous place. It is by no means all sunshine and roses. And I'm not talking about conspiracy theory the government is out to get everyone nuts.

Time and again the quiet neighborhoods, the safe schools, the peaceful towns are hit again and again with tragedy.

There is really so very little difference in a kid seeing a trained and armed officer on a school campus and seeing a trained and armed officer cruising the neighborhood or walking a beat through the mall.

The cops are not the bad guys.

 

I agree with everything except the last sentence.

Cops are guys. Some good, some not so good same as the rest of the population. I wouldn't presume they are all saints anymore than I would presume they are all crooked.

 

You are avoiding the question. Is advertising that there are no guns on the premises a good policy to make people safer?

 

Nope. It's pure stupid. It's no different than putting a home monitoring alarm system sticker in your window whether you actually have one or not. No one would put a sign up saying, "this home is alarm monitor free".

 

Nevermind I'd be fine with a movie theater full of concealed carry folks. I'm optimistic that if even a couple of them go wackado, the rest will resolve the problem quickly. Or at least be able to try. Beats just hunkinging down like sitting ducks waiting. What's the saying? When death is seconds away, the police are only minutes away?

 

Tho truth be known, I think most good gun owners wouldn't return fire unless they had a sure shot, which would be unlikely. There is going to be screaming, smoke, people on the move. I just don't see getting a good shot even if they are an ace shooter, it's like a hole in one the first time you pick up a club unlikely situation.

 

I don't think it would be much different in the school setting. Kids screaming, crying, running. The last thing you would do is pull your gun when you don't need it. You don't want to become the next target. (dead targets can't help anyone) Or cause more gun fire danger. So again, it's waiting for the moment to get at least a "safer" shot.

 

I think any school dangerous enough to need even one armed guard is a school too unsafe for any child and my kid won't be going there.

[jenbrdsly]

I think armed officers (ones carrying guns) patrolling schools could frighten young children. It is quite a leap to suggest that I believe those officers have a desire to terrorize children, or that they are inhuman beings. That is crazy and beneath contempt as a debate tactic.

 

Bill

 

I have heard from several principals that when there are school safety patrol vehicles parked in front of the school, many parents freak out and call the school office wondering what the matter is. That's not because parents don't like police officers, it's because police officers at school make a lot of people nervous… including me.

[Mrs Mungo]

After the Empire State building shooting, in which all nine bystanders injured were hit by police gunfire, there were a number of articles about how very difficult it is for even highly trained law enforcement agents in a crisis situation to actually hit the person at whom they are aiming.

 

And this is what I have said. Even highly trained military personnel (they spend more time at the range and more time in hostile environments with shooting than cops) have a hard time making kill shots on a moving target.

 

I think curbing these types of shootings is going to require a combined effort: better mental health care, institutions to care for those who represent a serious threat, bans on certain types of weapons/clips/ammo (if you need a 30-round clip for self-protection, then you have NO business carrying a gun, get back to the range!), increased security, etc.

 

I *do* find it surprising that the average citizens is more likely to be armed in the US than in Europe, but European police officers are more likely to be heavily armed than your typical American cop. I think all police cars in Germany and Italy, at least, have a sub machine gun in the squad car. Sub machine guns are relatively common sights in Europe. What makes that idea more scary here, considering that our general populace is more likely to be armed?