CHURCH TAX in Germany. Say WHAT?

[TranquilMind]

Lovely. There was a huge article about this in my local paper today. Apparently, the RCC is prohibiting sacraments to those who decline to pay the 9% church tax in Germany, almost all of which is given to the church. Forced tithing, anyone? The Protestants and Jews get the tax too, but they are not prohibiting worship and communion if someone doesn't pay.

 

From here:

The Catholic Church in Germany receives about €5 billion ($6.5 billion) annually from the surcharge. For Protestants, the total is just above €4 billion ($5.2 billion). Donations, in turn, represent a far smaller share of the churches' income than in the United States.

 

 

Well, duh. If it is taken from you, on penalty of not being able to participate in important rituals in your faith, it sort of replaces voluntary giving, eh?

 

Way to drive people out of church!

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

I'm confused. Does everyone have to pay this tax? Or is it just church goes? Is this to support the old church buildings/historical sites in use or is it for all churches?

[Melinda in VT]

I first heard of church taxes when I spent a summer in Switzerland twenty years ago. The family I lived with never attended church during the time I was with them, but they did pay the church taxes so that they could (eventually) have a church burial.

 

People do have a choice, but it's not without consequences.

 

Then again, I grew up in a denomination that withheld certain rituals to those who didn't tithe 10 percent (although they took you at your word if you said you had).

[Starr]

This is not new.

[GailV]

I'm confused. Does everyone have to pay this tax? Or is it just church goes? Is this to support the old church buildings/historical sites in use or is it for all churches?

 

The way I read it in our paper, if you declare yourself Christian you pay a church tax. I assume it's divided up by Protestant vs. Catholic in the declaration. The tax money is then handed over to the church to use for whatever purposes.

 

Fewer people are declaring themselves Christian, so the churches are getting less money from the tax. So the Catholic churches are saying, "okay, if you aren't Christian, then you don't need our services." In other words, if you don't pay the tax, don't expect the Church to give you the sacraments.

 

The article in our paper included a quote from a guy who had decided to stop paying the tax (in other words, declare that he wasn't a Christian after all) because he realized he could take a nice vacation with the money he saved NOT paying the church tax. He seemed okay with his decision.

[regentrude]

That has always been the case, for decades.

The Catholic and Lutheran German churches are funded by mandatory contributions from their members which are collected via the equivalent of the IRS. The amount is not 9% of the income, but 9% of the income tax paid by the person, a much smaller sum. Since the income tax depends on a person's financial ability and family size, church tax factors in these effects. A persom who becomes a member of the Catholic or Lutheran church agrees to funding the church by these amounts.

 

This does not autmatically include all Christians; aside from the Catholic and Lutheran church, there are free churches which do not collect church tax.

Each person has the choice to be a member or not, and can terminate membership and payments.

 

The issue currently under debate is whether leaving the German Catholic Church formally and ceasing to pay tax also equals excommunication; it is likely that this will not stand.

Edited September 30, 2012 by regentrude

[regentrude]

The way I read it in our paper, if you declare yourself Christian you pay a church tax. I assume it's divided up by Protestant vs. Catholic in the declaration. .

 

Not if you declare yourself Christian. Only if you declare yourself a member of the Catholic or the Evangelical-Lutheran church. Other Christain churches are not included.

[Spy Car]

That has always been the case, for decades.

The Catholic and Lutheran German churches are funded by mandatory contributions from their members which are collected via the equivalent of the IRS. The amount is not 9% of the income, but 9% of the income tax paid by the person, a much smaller sum. Since the income tax depends on a person's financial ability and family size, church tax factors in these effects. A persom who becomes a member of the Catholic or Lutheran church agrees to funding the church by these amounts.

 

This does not autmatically include all Christians; aside from the Catholic and Lutheran church, there are free churches which do not collect church tax.

Each person has the choice to be a member or not, and can terminate membership and payments.

 

The issue currently under debate is whether leaving the German Catholic Church formally and ceasing to pay tax also equals excommunication; it is likely that this will not stand.

 

If one is not a Christian do you pay less tax? Or is the 9% that would otherwise been sent to either the Lutheran or Catholic Churches retained by the state?

 

Bill

[regentrude]

If one is not a Christian do you pay less tax? Or is the 9% that would otherwise been sent to either the Lutheran or Catholic Churches retained by the state?

 

 

If you are not a member of the two large Churches (Catholic and Lutheran) who collect the church tax, you do not pay.

 

If you do pay church tax, you can claim the amount of church tax paid as a deduction on your next year's taxes; you still pay more than a person who is not a church member, but your tax rate will be based on your taxable income with the church tax deducted - if that makes sense.

[stripe]

Way to drive people out of church!

The US is one of the few countries in the world that collect income tax on non-resident citizens, yet fewer than 2000 people (of the more than 6 million Americans living abroad) renounced their US citizenship last year. I highly doubt that the devout are leaving the church as a result of this.

[Spy Car]

If you are not a member of the two large Churches (Catholic and Lutheran) who collect the church tax, you do not pay.

 

If you do pay church tax, you can claim the amount of church tax paid as a deduction on your next year's taxes; you still pay more than a person who is not a church member, but your tax rate will be based on your taxable income with the church tax deducted - if that makes sense.

 

Makes perfect sense. Thank you.

 

Bill

[GailV]

Not if you declare yourself Christian. Only if you declare yourself a member of the Catholic or the Evangelical-Lutheran church. Other Christain churches are not included.

 

I don't recall whether our paper specified. They likely started with the broad phrase of Christian, and then moved to the more narrow -- and correct -- terms later in the article. I'm in the midst of a major allergy attack, and fairly fuzzy about what I read where.

 

In any case, thanks for clearing that up.

[TranquilMind]

This is not new.

 

No, but it was new to me. What IS new is the refusal to extend sacraments. Does not sit well with me.

[TranquilMind]

GailV: Fewer people are declaring themselves Christian, so the churches are getting less money from the tax. So the Catholic churches are saying, "okay, if you aren't Christian, then you don't need our services." In other words, if you don't pay the tax, don't expect the Church to give you the sacraments.

 

So the sacraments are for sale, then? People are not declaring themselves "not Christian". They are deciding that they won't be strong-armed, the way that I read it.

 

[kitten18]

That has always been the case, for decades.

The Catholic and Lutheran German churches are funded by mandatory contributions from their members which are collected via the equivalent of the IRS. The amount is not 9% of the income, but 9% of the income tax paid by the person, a much smaller sum. Since the income tax depends on a person's financial ability and family size, church tax factors in these effects. A persom who becomes a member of the Catholic or Lutheran church agrees to funding the church by these amounts.

 

This does not autmatically include all Christians; aside from the Catholic and Lutheran church, there are free churches which do not collect church tax.

Each person has the choice to be a member or not, and can terminate membership and payments.

 

The issue currently under debate is whether leaving the German Catholic Church formally and ceasing to pay tax also equals excommunication; it is likely that this will not stand.

Thanks for the correct information.

 

I highly doubt that the devout are leaving the church as a result of this.

I completely agree.

[regentrude]

No, but it was new to me. What IS new is the refusal to extend sacraments. Does not sit well with me.

 

That is not new either- it has been practiced for a long time: if you stop paying the tax, you can only do so by declaring yourself no longer a member of the Catholic Church. You have to formally leave the Church. The logic of the Catholic bishops in Germany has been that, if you leave the Church, you can no longer receive the sacraments - like with any other non-member of the church.

The only thing that IS new is that somebody formally declared that he is leaving the church but is now fighting for his right to the sacraments, and that the vatican is now evaluating the situation.

Previously, people have accepted that, if they leave the church, they can't have sacraments either - it was never an issue for debate.

Edited September 30, 2012 by regentrude

[Avila]

No, but it was new to me. What IS new is the refusal to extend sacraments. Does not sit well with me.

 

If you have declared formally that you are not a Christian, why would you want or expect to receive the sacraments? Making a choice to declare that you are not a Christian is denying Christ and the Church, so that person is essentially excommunicating himself. The Church is only taking him at his word, at that point.

[regentrude]

If you have declared formally that you are not a Christian, why would you want or expect to receive the sacraments? Making a choice to declare that you are not a Christian is denying Christ and the Church, so that person is essentially excommunicating himself. The Church is only taking him at his word, at that point.

 

To be precise: you do not have to deny Christ! You can still be Christian and belong to some other Christian churches - it is specifically the Catholic Church you are formally leaving.

[Avila]

To be precise: you do not have to deny Christ! You can still be Christian and belong to some other Christian churches - it is specifically the Catholic Church you are formally leaving.

 

Ok. Not arguing that. Poorly worded on my part. But if you are a Christian of any kind who renounces that just to avoid paying a tax, then you are renouncing Christ. People who leave because they no longer consider themselves Christian Or because they are choosing to affiliate with another Christian group are not the ones making the fuss about not being able to receive sacraments, from what I have read.

 

But my point is still that if somebody is formally renouncing the Catholic Church (which you have to do to be taken off the list for the tax), why would that person have any expectation of continuing to receive sacraments as a Catholic? They can't have it both ways.

 

http://www.cathnewsusa.com/2012/09/german-bishops-defend-exclusion-of-catholics-who-stop-paying-tax/

 

ETA: this is the article I was trying to find: http://krestaintheafternoon.blogspot.com/2012/09/are-german-bishops-just-greedy.html

Edited September 30, 2012 by Asenik

[8circles]

This isn't new, no. I have several German friends who considered themselves devout Catholics yet weren't officially part of the church. Some or them on principle (forced monetary contributions), some of them because they didn't feel they could afford it. A couple of them now live in the US and are very involved members of Lutheran churches.

[Avila]

This isn't new, no. I have several German friends who considered themselves devout Catholics yet weren't officially part of the church. Some or them on principle (forced monetary contributions), some of them because they didn't feel they could afford it. A couple of them now live in the US and are very involved members of Lutheran churches.

 

According to what Regentrude was saying, wouldn't they have been in exactly the same position as Lutherans in Germany?

[Carol in Cal.]

I visited Germany in the late 80's on a business trip, and this was already a big issue back then. Someone asked me whether I thought that people who never go to church should have to pay tax money to it, and I said, no, of course not. Little did I know how radical that thinking was there.

 

Of course both Catholics and Lutherans baptize infants, and their tax contributions are assumed unless and until they reject the faith as adults. And at the time, if they rejected the faith, their names would be read aloud in church, and also published I think, which was shameful to their whole family. Still, I thought it was a weird custom, although it was clear that it was longstanding.

 

I had a private chat with a colleague about this. He explained that the benefits of church membership in German include a tremendous amount of social stuff that is handled by family or government over here, or privately. This includes nursing homes, visiting health care workers, and that sort of thing. Those are hard to give up. And the Christian burial is also impossible if you have rejected your faith formally.

 

It was so interesting to learn of all this. My colleague was an absolute atheist, but he kept up his church taxes to the Catholic church for later and to avoid embarrassment. His only issue was that he was thinking of retiring to Italy, and not sure how to access benefits later on.

 

Another thing that was interesting there was that women were not allowed by law to work the graveyard shift. And also, manufacturing line workers rotated shifts weekly so that each would get exposed to the engineering personnel every few weeks. So the men would rotate among all three shifts, and the women, between the day and evening ones.

 

Additionally, people's attitude toward taxes was mostly that they got a lot of good stuff for their money, so it just made sense to pitch in.

[regentrude]

Another thing that was interesting there was that women were not allowed by law to work the graveyard shift.

 

This was true in the 80s, but the law was revoked in 2002, because it violated the European Union gender non-discrimination laws by limiting job opportunities for women.

[8circles]

According to what Regentrude was saying, wouldn't they have been in exactly the same position as Lutherans in Germany?

 

Maybe? I admittedly only know a bit more than what they told me. They weren't Lutherans in Germany but are in the US - there is no formal connection between the Lutheran churches in the US and the German Lutheran church, is there? Idk.

[Avila]

Maybe? I admittedly only know a bit more than what they told me. They weren't Lutherans in Germany but are in the US - there is no formal connection between the Lutheran churches in the US and the German Lutheran church, is there? Idk.

 

I just meant that Catholics and Lutherans in Germany both have to pay the tax. And neither group would have to here.

 

It would be interesting to look at how that whole thing got set up in the first place, historically.

[8circles]

I just meant that Catholics and Lutherans in Germany both have to pay the tax. And neither group would have to here.

 

It would be interesting to look at how that whole thing got set up in the first place, historically.

 

I think I know what you're saying. Why didn't they belong to the Catholic church in the US? They thought the church tax was wrong and so they weren't able to trust the Catholic church anywhere since its all one and the same.

[Liz CA]

 

The issue currently under debate is whether leaving the German Catholic Church formally and ceasing to pay tax also equals excommunication; it is likely that this will not stand.

 

Wow. I had not heard about possible excommunication. I knew there was a "Kirchensteuer."

[regentrude]

It would be interesting to look at how that whole thing got set up in the first place, historically.

 

In the early 1800s, Germany lost land to Napoleon. The German nobles took property from the churches to compensate themselves for their losses (generously)- the churches lost most of their real estate, including almost all the 200 monasteries. In turn, the nobles agreed to fund the churches and the pastors.

In the 19th century, varying religious organizations developed in communities instead of one single prevailing church. Pastors received salaries instead of goods. The state could not longer fund everything - that's when they came up with the idea of the tax. They instituted the tax, and in turn freed the state from the responsibility of having to fund the churches.

So, in a sense, it is Germany's way of separating state and church. Although there are critics who disagree with the fact that the church uses state infrastructure, the tax system, to collect their dues. Btw, the church pays the state for this service.

The tax dates back to the Weimar constitution from 1919, and was incorporated into the modern German constitution. Religious organizations that are "Koerperschaft des oeffentlichen Rechts" (an organization that satisfies certain legal restrictions that I can not explain) have the right to collect a tax.

Edited September 30, 2012 by regentrude

[Avila]

It dates back to the Weimar constitution from 1919, and was incorporated into the modern German constitution. Religious organizations that are "Koerperschaft des oeffentlichen Rechts" (an organization that satisfies certain legal restrictions that I can not explain) have the right to collect a tax.

 

So do you know why it is only the Catholic and Lutheran churches of the Christian groups that have that right?

 

Just curious about how that part developed.

[Liz CA]

To be precise: you do not have to deny Christ! You can still be Christian and belong to some other Christian churches - it is specifically the Catholic Church you are formally leaving.

 

This is very interesting. When I still lived there (left in 1986) everyone either paid or formally withdrew but there were few to no other choices around our area. Now there seem to be Free Evangelical Churches similar to the ones in the U.S.

[regentrude]

So do you know why it is only the Catholic and Lutheran churches of the Christian groups that have that right?

 

Just curious about how that part developed.

 

They were, and still are, by far the two largest churches. I am not a lawyer and do not understand what Koerperschaft oeffentlichen Rechts entails; not all religious communities want to attain this status.

[Avila]

They were, and still are, by far the two largest churches. I am not a lawyer and do not understand what Koerperschaft oeffentlichen Rechts entails; not all religious communities want to attain this status.

 

Thanks for the explanation (really, explanations). It has been very helpful.

[Carol in Cal.]

Maybe? I admittedly only know a bit more than what they told me. They weren't Lutherans in Germany but are in the US - there is no formal connection between the Lutheran churches in the US and the German Lutheran church, is there? Idk.

 

Not in church governance. There are inter-church fellowship agreements, but those are between entirely separately governed organizations.

[8circles]

Not in church governance. There are inter-church fellowship agreements, but those are between entirely separately governed organizations.

 

Yup, that's what I thought. :)

[Carol in Cal.]

So do you know why it is only the Catholic and Lutheran churches of the Christian groups that have that right?

 

Just curious about how that part developed.

 

Does it hearken back to the Peace of Augsburg, which only recognized Catholics and Lutherans but not Calvinists or Anabaptists?

[8circles]

Does it hearken back to the Peace of Augsburg, which only recognized Catholics and Lutherans but not Calvinists or Anabaptists?

 

Could be? I haven't looked into this stuff for a while but I was under the impression that each church (denomination) decided whether or not to collect the tax on their own, let the government collect the tax & disperse it, or not collect tax at all. I don't know where I got that from so it could be wrong.

[Avila]

Does it hearken back to the Peace of Augsburg, which only recognized Catholics and Lutherans but not Calvinists or Anabaptists?

 

I thought about that, but something else I read said that Jews are also included in the tax.

[TranquilMind]

To be precise: you do not have to deny Christ! You can still be Christian and belong to some other Christian churches - it is specifically the Catholic Church you are formally leaving.

 

The article says that it extends to other Christians as well.

[Juniper]

Wow. I had not heard about possible excommunication. I knew there was a "Kirchensteuer."

 

excommunication is viewed a bit differently than my original understanding of it. I know for EO it would make more sense to say, "Self-excommunication." Basically, the individual behind this present bruhaha has self-excommunicated himself. Then you have a Church that believes in the Sacraments, that is trying to decided if they should be given to someone who has self-excommunicated themselves.

 

The problem, and I have run into this when learning about EO and talking with my priest, is that it/he doesn't add in that important little word "self." It is something that is just "understood" within the tradition, because the goal of the tradition is unity...not excommunication.

[ElizaG]

In the early 1800s, Germany lost land to Napoleon. The German nobles took property from the churches to compensate themselves for their losses (generously)- the churches lost most of their real estate, including almost all the 200 monasteries. In turn, the nobles agreed to fund the churches and the pastors. (...)

Thank you for the explanation. It's hard to find information online (in English, at any rate), and that whole era of European history confuses me to bits.

 

For those who are interested in some more detail about the confiscations of church property in that era, regentrude's post helped me to find this, in Google Books:

 

The Religious Policy of the Bavarian Government During the Napoleonic Period (Columbia University Studies in History, Economics, and Public Law, Volume 85) by Chester Penn Higby, 1919

 

(Quite a hefty title, and book. For all I know, this work might have been sitting there unappreciated for generations, waiting for its day in the sun. And yet, thanks to the wonders of digital technology, it still looks as fresh as a daisy. ;))

[GWOB]

Ok. This will probably not happen in America. Regent rude explained the historical motivation and current application of the law. And I trust her, ya know, since she is German and all that. (Said as an LCMS member-a Lutheran church synod with ethnically-German roots)

 

Not every country does things the way the U.S. does things. I seriously doubt Germany is taxing people solely on the basis of their Christian status. It seems like just a way of supporting churches, which is almost (if not) as old as the U.S. We American Christians may need to simmer down a bit.

[Serenade]

One thing I've been wondering, is the tax collected instead of the weekly offering at Mass, or is one still expected to contribute financially with the weekly offering?

[TranquilMind]

One thing I've been wondering, is the tax collected instead of the weekly offering at Mass, or is one still expected to contribute financially with the weekly offering?

 

I wondered that too, and there wasn't any information on that in the long article I read.

[Incognito]

From my brief encouters with the state church in Sweden, weekly offerings are more of a small token gesture, while the tax supports the upkeep of the buildings and such.

[sahm99]

From my brief encouters with the state church in Sweden, weekly offerings are more of a small token gesture, while the tax supports the upkeep of the buildings and such.

 

Yes, this is very much the same in Germany.

And, just for the record, I have never heard of anybody's "official exit" being publicly announced...

Last but not least, I think the whole issue is a very theoretical one. Why would one want to officially leave the church...to come back next Sunday?!?

And, certainly no priest will check whether taxes have been payed before distributing the sacraments!

[Laura Corin]

The US is one of the few countries in the world that collect income tax on non-resident citizens, yet fewer than 2000 people (of the more than 6 million Americans living abroad) renounced their US citizenship last year.

 

We have looked into it (as most of the family has dual nationality but we live in the UK and would rather be paying taxes here). If you renounce and the US government suspects it is for tax reasons, the red tape is enormous. This includes a possibility of a special expatriation tax. It's not a simple process.

 

Laura

[IsabelC]

In Germany (and some other countries) church tax is collected from all members of the church. In Australia (and some other countries) we instead grant churches a tax free or low tax status, meaning that all taxpayers subsidize the churches, whether they belong to one or not. I think the church tax system is fairer.

[Alessandra]

In the early 1800s, Germany lost land to Napoleon. The German nobles took property from the churches to compensate themselves for their losses (generously)- the churches lost most of their real estate, including almost all the 200 monasteries. In turn, the nobles agreed to fund the churches and the pastors.

In the 19th century, varying religious organizations developed in communities instead of one single prevailing church. Pastors received salaries instead of goods. The state could not longer fund everything - that's when they came up with the idea of the tax. They instituted the tax, and in turn freed the state from the responsibility of having to fund the churches.

So, in a sense, it is Germany's way of separating state and church. Although there are critics who disagree with the fact that the church uses state infrastructure, the tax system, to collect their dues. Btw, the church pays the state for this service.

The tax dates back to the Weimar constitution from 1919, and was incorporated into the modern German constitution. Religious organizations that are "Koerperschaft des oeffentlichen Rechts" (an organization that satisfies certain legal restrictions that I can not explain) have the right to collect a tax.

 

Fascinating... thank you.

[regentrude]

One thing I've been wondering, is the tax collected instead of the weekly offering at Mass, or is one still expected to contribute financially with the weekly offering?

 

The weekly offerings are still collected. The tax goes to the institution church (the whole Catholic or Lutheran Church); the weekly offering goes to the individual church and the needs of the congregation. Members also fund the needs of their congregation by a small sum (Kirchgeld) which is paid yearly and depends on family size/student or senior status.

The amounts given at collection are typically small sums; nobody writes checks or gives large bills - mostly change or small bills.

In some weeks, the collection is designated for a mission project, or to help a congregation that had a disaster, or to fund building repairs..... It is announced before collection what the money will be used for.

[regentrude]

And, just for the record, I have never heard of anybody's "official exit" being publicly announced...

 

Neither have I. Where exactly would it be announced anyway? One can be a member of the Church without being a member of a specific congregation; many church members never go to service. In all the years of attending service in Germany, I have never once heard an announcement that somebody left the church.