Math for the child who struggles

[mo2]

If you have a child who just doesn't "get" math, what curriculum have you found that helped? And why?

[Walking-Iris]

It depends on what your kiddo is struggling with exactly. And how old your child is. My ds has a harder time with math than just about any other subject. He's getting better. We're making progress.

 

I used Miquon and supplemented with Kumon workbooks and various math related Scholastic ebooks to practice facts and word problems, graphs and logic etc. He's used Figure It Out as a supplement for some time. He's using Saxon 5/4 now. I also read from the LivingMath booklists.

 

I use any and all math manipulatives I can find or make. Cusinaire rods are our go-to favorite.

 

What math curriculum are you using now and what is he struggling with the most?

[mo2]

10yo, and it seems like we are struggling with everything---memorization of facts, as well as understanding the concepts. Right now we are using Teaching Textbooks.

[mama27]

10yo, and it seems like we are struggling with everything---memorization of facts, as well as understanding the concepts. Right now we are using Teaching Textbooks.

 

 

I know it's really popular but, IMO, TT is behind and does not have nearly enough math facts practice.

I'd reccomend taking the placement test for CLE or Saxon. Both have lots of review and will help with memorizing.

[AimeeM]

"Where to go" can only really be answered when you have an idea of *why* your current program isn't working, imo.

 

We used CLE and our daughter breezed for it; we realized later that she had retained NONE of it. It simply moved to quickly - not focusing on one area for long at all, before spiraling to previously "learned" concepts. We realized the spiral approach (CLE, Horizons, Saxon) didn't work for her. We've happily moved to Math Mammoth as a mastery program, for my child who very easily understands concepts, but has working memory difficulties.

[Haiku]

If your son is 10 and truly hasn't mastered the underlying concepts of arithmetic, I would suggest taking the placement test for Right Start and giving that a try.

 

Tara

[Shellers]

"Where to go" can only really be answered when you have an idea of *why* your current program isn't working, imo.

 

:iagree:

[PeterPan]

At that age, I think the answer is going to be backing up and *doing* the math. He probably needs to physically manipulate it. MUS, RS, BJU (with added manipulatives from RS or MUS or rods), any of it will work. Main thing would be to go through the concepts with manipulatives and make sure he really UNDERSTANDS it. Math facts are a little more negotiable and can take time. My dd actually got a HUGE bump in math computation speed this year with TT (both to my eye and almost 20% increase on her standardized testing!), but it's because she was doing easier material where the brain could focus just on the facts. If he's not getting it conceptually, he's swamped by too many things at once. So you pull him off and do math together. You might let him do the TT as well, but back him up a full grade in the TT and let him repeat that level. That way he's doing something easier and can focus on getting faster. Meanwhile you start working with him on conceptual math. MUS seems to be the program of choice with boys. I used RS with my dd. I used BJU later. If I were just picking one, I'd pick MUS in your situation. It hits all the topics (unlike RS, which ends around a 4th grade level) and is easy to teach for a variety of people.

[mommy5]

My son struggled with mastery math but does well with spiral. We switched this past year to CLE and he is doing great, now!

[Deee]

My son isn't mathy. We moved to MEP last term. His conceptual understanding has improved dramatically. Its slow, and he finds it tiring, but I can see real gains in his abilities. I wished we'd shifted years ago.

D

[Pen]

What have you tried besides TT?

 

What, if anything, does he understand so far? (Can he count? Add or subtract simple things?)

 

Do you (or can you) work with him a lot yourself or need a curriculum that will do the teaching for you?

 

Is an outside human tutor a possibility in your circumstances?

[DianeJM]

At that age, I think the answer is going to be backing up and *doing* the math.

 

I agree, and this was my experience with ds. We switched from ABeka to MUS when he was around 11, backing up two full grades at the recommendation of the MUS rep. She was right! The result is that he GETS it. It's much easier for him now. He's catching up but still behind right now. It's fine.

 

Here's a bit of wisdom from Linda Kane, a neurodevelopmental person I heard at the convention one year. In order to make the learning stick, you need three components: FREQUENCY, INTENSITY, and DURATION.

 

Frequency is: The number of times you are exposed to the same information. Over and over. Repetition is key. Precise and specific.

Frequency is giving highlights of the information -- the meat, the important things, over and over again.

 

Intensity is: How strong the information is presented.

Find something in the subject that will turn on the interest of the student — increased interest level will increase the strength of the learning.

Make it short and sweet, then stop – they will crave more.

 

Duration is: How long you keep trying over time.

Staying at something long enough so that it “gets in there.†Input is key.

Keep on inputting -- building that pathway, and finally, one day, it will connect; the brain will finally “get it.†And don't let up then, keep reviewing from time to time.

 

She also suggested doing a problem on the whiteboard for your child as a demonstration if he doesn't get it. Do it enough times that he will get tired of watching you and want to grab the marker and do it himself. This works great. We're teaching, not testing, she said, and so teach him how to do it as often as he needs to be taught.

 

That's a strategy or two that you can use now, and go from there.

 

All the best!!

[Pen]

I agree, and this was my experience with ds. We switched from ABeka to MUS when he was around 11, backing up two full grades at the recommendation of the MUS rep. She was right! The result is that he GETS it. It's much easier for him now. He's catching up but still behind right now. It's fine.

 

Here's a bit of wisdom from Linda Kane, a neurodevelopmental person I heard at the convention one year. In order to make the learning stick, you need three components: FREQUENCY, INTENSITY, and DURATION.

 

Frequency is: The number of times you are exposed to the same information. Over and over. Repetition is key. Precise and specific.

Frequency is giving highlights of the information -- the meat, the important things, over and over again.

 

Intensity is: How strong the information is presented.

Find something in the subject that will turn on the interest of the student — increased interest level will increase the strength of the learning.

Make it short and sweet, then stop – they will crave more.

 

Duration is: How long you keep trying over time.

Staying at something long enough so that it “gets in there.†Input is key.

Keep on inputting -- building that pathway, and finally, one day, it will connect; the brain will finally “get it.†And don't let up then, keep reviewing from time to time.

 

She also suggested doing a problem on the whiteboard for your child as a demonstration if he doesn't get it. Do it enough times that he will get tired of watching you and want to grab the marker and do it himself. This works great. We're teaching, not testing, she said, and so teach him how to do it as often as he needs to be taught.

 

That's a strategy or two that you can use now, and go from there.

 

All the best!!

 

Yes :iagree: !!

[Holly]

My DD has struggled all along with math. It's been a two step forward one step back process! She eventually gets it, but it takes awhile. We just switched to MUS (after several years with Singapore) and she's actually enjoying her math! She's loves the videos and the simple worksheets. We're only a few weeks into the year and already 1/4 done with Gamma (I'm hoping to do 2 levels this year). It's like I have a totally different child (in her math lessons anyway). ;)

[MamaHappy]

What about Rod & Staff?? It's not fast paced, has TONS of review and spends a good deal of time on math facts.

[DJgang]

Personally, I would continue TT, I'd get a MCP math workbook and an abacus, let him do three or so pages of review with the abacus.

 

And the Flashmaster, pricey but worth it.

Edited September 25, 2012 by DJgang

[Hunter]

 

...Here's a bit of wisdom from Linda Kane, a neurodevelopmental person I heard at the convention one year. In order to make the learning stick, you need three components: FREQUENCY, INTENSITY, and DURATION.

 

Frequency is: The number of times you are exposed to the same information. Over and over. Repetition is key. Precise and specific.

Frequency is giving highlights of the information -- the meat, the important things, over and over again.

 

Intensity is: How strong the information is presented.

Find something in the subject that will turn on the interest of the student — increased interest level will increase the strength of the learning.

Make it short and sweet, then stop – they will crave more.

 

Duration is: How long you keep trying over time.

Staying at something long enough so that it “gets in there.” Input is key.

Keep on inputting -- building that pathway, and finally, one day, it will connect; the brain will finally “get it.” And don't let up then, keep reviewing from time to time.....

 

:iagree:

 

I find the level you are talking about hard to remediate. I know I need to back up with these students, but have not found an all-in-one package that I like. How to Tutor and A Guide to American Christian Education, both outline a narrow but intense program of arithmetic, that I find useful as a guide.

 

I've started tracking down children's resources that go over the history of the Arabic/Hindu and it's beauty and genius. The History of Counting was a hit here.

 

Copywork of the charts in How to Tutor combined with drill at xtramath.com are showing some definite improvements here.

 

For more advanced students, I have seen amazing improvements in math scores, from backing up remedial high school students all the way to Saxon 54. With steady work they are often able to solidly test out of the lower level remedial junior college maths and just have to take one remedial course, before starting for credit math, when a Freshman. This is in comparison to the average student who took 2 years of "high school" math and has to start all the way back at remedial basic math, because they were just pushed ahead with no mastery. These observations go back to the 90's.

 

I believe in backing up, and moving as slow and steady as it takes to produce mastery. I believe in narrowing the scope of the curriculum for struggling students to focus more on the mastery of the arabic/hindu decimal system, above all else. And to make sure the student fully understands what that system is and can do. For now I have been experimenting with teaching the other strands of math almost entirely with picture books and notebooking. Time will tell how effective that is, I guess.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Hunter

[Dina in Oklahoma]

I would encourage you to try Rod and Staff along with some fun manipulatives one day each week. As he begins to understand an operation have him "teach" it to you. Kids love being the "Teacher" and if he can teach it, you know he fully understands the concept. It will also build his confidence.

 

I would not recommend a spiral program such as Saxon.

 

Best Wishes!

Edited September 25, 2012 by Dina in Oklahoma

[mo2]

Wow, thank you everyone. I will try to answer some of the questions asked here. We are using TT4 right now. In the past we have also tried Math Mammoth and long, long, ago Math-U-See. The MUS was when she was about 5 or 6, I think. At the time, I thought the program wasn't working for us, but in retrospect, maybe she just wasn't ready for it yet. She can do addition and subtraction but gets confused when the question reads ___ - 5 = 6 (or similar), so I don't think she actually understands the relationships between the operations. She does not have even addition facts memorized and counts on her fingers a lot.

 

Right now I am leaning toward MUS, possibly the Gamma level (?). Or maybe Math Mammoth, with me actually sitting beside her throughout the whole lesson to guide her and help where needed. I would love to hear feedback on either of these options.

 

Thank you!

[mo2]

No one?

[ally]

I don't know a whole lot about MUS but my experience with math mammoth and my struggling math student was abyssmal. We are plugging along through Saxon which is my favorite math curriculum for my mathy students. I am tempted to try MUS with her and will if we hit a wall. She does know her math facts but her processing speed is painfully slow and she does not do well with any mental math. HTH

[Pen]

Wow, thank you everyone. I will try to answer some of the questions asked here. We are using TT4 right now. In the past we have also tried Math Mammoth and long, long, ago Math-U-See. The MUS was when she was about 5 or 6, I think. At the time, I thought the program wasn't working for us, but in retrospect, maybe she just wasn't ready for it yet. She can do addition and subtraction but gets confused when the question reads ___ - 5 = 6 (or similar), so I don't think she actually understands the relationships between the operations. She does not have even addition facts memorized and counts on her fingers a lot.

 

Right now I am leaning toward MUS, possibly the Gamma level (?). Or maybe Math Mammoth, with me actually sitting beside her throughout the whole lesson to guide her and help where needed. I would love to hear feedback on either of these options.

 

Thank you!

 

I've been happy with MUS by and large--keep wandering away and returning to it.

 

You may need to go back farther than gamma if she's still not getting things more basic though. Do you still have the one you tried when she was 5-6? If so, try it now and see if she can understand it, if so you can go through MUS as fast as she can grasp each step, but not leave holes.

 

Math is very incremental and so it is hard to jump in at a later stage than where the problem is.

 

Will be trying MM shortly, soon as it comes from RR (another wandering away moment!)--but as I haven't yet cannot give feedback on that.

 

For the relationship between operations, spending awhile with real objects (pennies say, or beans, or choc. chips) and showing it can be helpful. Getting to where she can explain it to you, if possible, perhaps playing school where she is teacher and you a student.

 

Or, I almost wonder whether going back to 1st grade of Singapore or Math in Focus where it would explain things like that subtracting is taking away might help?

 

For some kids using things like stories about math squirrels can be helpful. Things like if one squirrels went and got 5 nuts from a tree stash, and then another squirrel found 6 nuts, how many nuts must there have been to start. And pictures can be drawn of that or nuts can be used to show it. That would be for your ___ -5=6 example.

[mystika1]

I have posted so many math threads in the past because of my math hating oldest dd. I have used tons of math curriculum trying to find the best thing for her. I recommend the education unboxed videos with c-rods.

 

Penny

[kandty]

RightStart! We have been using it for 3 months and my struggling math student is making improvements. His mental math is improving and the biggest improvement is his attitude towards math. There is daily review and the lessons are short.

[2squared]

My 10yo is not a natural with math. I am so, so very lucky to have picked RightStart from the beginning. She needs the visual manips and the incremental build-up that RS provides. She is in Level E, supposedly a year behind grade level, and it is difficult for her. What I have experienced, though, is that she is solid in what we have covered. I think RS laid a fab foundation for her, even though she had to fight for it most of the way. Get this - she enjoys her math lessons even though they are tough for her.

 

I think my dd would have done a great job with a program that teaches more procedurally. She is a sharp girl, and she probably would have done well completing worksheets of procedural problems. Problem is that I don't think she would have had a good math foundation. RS pushed her to places that I didn't know she needed to go.

[mo2]

Thanks everyone.

 

I've been happy with MUS by and large--keep wandering away and returning to it.

 

You may need to go back farther than gamma if she's still not getting things more basic though. Do you still have the one you tried when she was 5-6? If so, try it now and see if she can understand it, if so you can go through MUS as fast as she can grasp each step, but not leave holes.

 

Math is very incremental and so it is hard to jump in at a later stage than where the problem is.

 

Will be trying MM shortly, soon as it comes from RR (another wandering away moment!)--but as I haven't yet cannot give feedback on that.

 

For the relationship between operations, spending awhile with real objects (pennies say, or beans, or choc. chips) and showing it can be helpful. Getting to where she can explain it to you, if possible, perhaps playing school where she is teacher and you a student.

 

Or, I almost wonder whether going back to 1st grade of Singapore or Math in Focus where it would explain things like that subtracting is taking away might help?

 

For some kids using things like stories about math squirrels can be helpful. Things like if one squirrels went and got 5 nuts from a tree stash, and then another squirrel found 6 nuts, how many nuts must there have been to start. And pictures can be drawn of that or nuts can be used to show it. That would be for your ___ -5=6 example.

 

I do still have the alpha level and just pulled it out. I don't have the workbook anymore (filed it away with her work from that year) but I will have her watch the DVD today and see what she thinks. Good idea.

[Pen]

Thanks everyone.

 

 

 

I do still have the alpha level and just pulled it out. I don't have the workbook anymore (filed it away with her work from that year) but I will have her watch the DVD today and see what she thinks. Good idea.

 

try to do it with the blocks (or some substitute) and paper and pencil or whiteboard to let her follow along with him so that the learning is active, not passive.