Cub Scouts...would you switch Den/Packs because of this?

[Samiam]

So DS6 is a Tiger Scout (DS9 is also a Webelos I). I volunteered to be a Asst Den Leader for the Tigers. The dad who is the leader is an EMS and has a very "military-like" demeanor. With that I just mean, he's seems very well, regimented, and strict. Not the fun, fluffy, type personality you want for Tigers (at least what I tried to be when I led my DS9's Tiger Den, and what the guy who ran last years' Tiger Den was). Okay, fine, let's see how it goes. Sometimes organization is key so it's not a horrible quality to have as a Den Leader, right?

 

So he can't be at the first Den meeting, has to work, so I am going to lead it. He sent me his "schedule" for the meeting (since I was a Tiger Leader, I already know, but hey he's the official leader, so I am not going to be a know-it-all). The schedule is very regimented, very much do this, do that, say this say that...all going through the handbook stuff, not one single "Fun" thing to add to it....well, unless you count the Welcome Activity (while we wait for everyone to arrive) which he marked as "have them color or something". Basically it was sit at the table while the leader talks,plans. Boooorrring. So I changed it up, added a more fun welcome activity (create with pipe cleaners), and added an active partner game.

 

But here's the kicker....he wants to have them immediately start working on the Tiger beads, after giving them the Tiger Emblem at this first meeting. The handbook clearly states that they need to get the Bobcat Badge first. I mentioned this to him and he says he doesn't want the boys to lose interest so wants them to get something every meeting....okaaay, but that's not the protocol, and the point is to get the Bobcat, and then start earning the fun beads. Apparently he already have this conversation with the Packmaster, who said no, Bobcat needs to be first, but the Leader is going this route anyway (he told me about this conversation). Ugh. So then in a conversation I have with the Packmaster, PM also mentioned that he, PM, is not waivering on the fact that Bobcat needs to be earned first before Tiger beads are given out. So now I am stuck with either doing what DL wants, which is to give out beads tomorrow night based on our den activity,(no one has got Bobcat yet because this is our first meeting) or going against his wishes and following the rules of PM and Handbook.

 

At this point I just want to jump ship. I hate that it's already this messy. I hate that this new DL is deciding he's going to do it HIS way. I hate that I have to pick doing it his way or the right way. It's just UGH.

 

It's the only Tiger Den in our Pack, so we'd have to switch Packs. Which also means switching DS9 to a different Pack, even though his Webelos I den is fine. It's only his 2nd year with this Pack, so it's not like he's been with these boys the whole time, (we were in a different state), and he's not really clicked with any of the boys (they tend to all go to to the same school, and most live in the same neighborhood so there's a bit of a clique while we are neither)...so I don't think he'd miss anyone too much. That Den has great, organized leadership though. No issues there.

 

Am I being too picky? Making a bigger deal than it needs to be? I guess I just feel an "omen" that this DL is going to be, well, not a good DL. I am picky, and want Tigers to be a great start for DS6...I know, having a past experience with our oldest DS14 when he was younger, that if the DL stinks, the whole Scout experience stinks, especially at this age. I also know that it's likely the DL will stay with the boys as they advance, so it's not like it's just this year and then move on....no, it could be the next FIVE years.

[eternalknot]

If I had just the one kid, I may or may not switch; but with the two kids? I'd definitely suck it up and stay put. It sounds like the leader's style isn't meshing with yours or the cubmaster's, and IME that usually means his tenure will be short-lived (and therefore not worth unnecessarily disrupting your own life/experience.)

 

My son's den was seven boys, all of whom went to the same public school and a few who went to church together. My son didn't know any of them from anywhere, but he had friends and cousins in the pack at large which helped. The boys in his den were friendly enough, but they didn't become friend-friends for a few years. The campouts are what sort of solidified it beyond the we-know-each-other stage. Now my son is in boy scouts but has maintained very close friendships with three of the six boys who ended up finishing cub scouts together. Of those three boys, two went to one local troop and the third went to a troop at his private school. My son chose a troop in another city.

 

I love that he's maintained these friendships that were slow to ignite but have remained a steady flame despite a longstanding barriers in their schooling and non-scout activities. I think it helped my son pick the right troop for him, even though his friends were going elsewhere.

 

I vote stay put for the time-being.

[scrappyhappymama]

Well, to get the Tiger Cub emblem, they have to know three of the Bobcat trail items anyway. It doesn't just get handed out. Once they've done that, it shouldn't be a big deal for them to continue on to complete their Bobcat.

 

In the packs we've been involved in, it gets awarded at the first pack meeting, and then the beads are awarded at subsequent pack meetings. Does your pack work differently? If not, it shouldn't be an issue to start working on some of the Tiger track beads in the first few weeks. In fact, it makes sense to me to do so, because it will take several weeks for the little guys especially to memorize all the Bobcat stuff. I think it would get boring for them if all you did in the first few weeks was to work on Bobcat. We usually would practice it at the beginning of the meeting and then again at the end of the meeting. Then after the first few weeks, whenever any of the boys were ready, we'd invite the cubmaster in to test them on their Bobcat.

 

Now if your DL doesn't want to do Bobcat at all, then that's a problem & since your Cubmaster already knows about it, he needs to address it with the Den leader.

 

As far as switching, I don't think I would quite yet. Your DL hasn't even led a meeting yet, right? I think I'd give him a chance to show how he'd do. I wouldn't judge just based on his meeting notes. Some people just write really detailed planning notes, in case they forget something, but are more relaxed in their actual presentation. I am also a fan of men leaders for the cub scouts. The men definitely lead things differently than the moms do, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Last year, my Tiger had a dad leader and t was really good for him. Our leader is a sort of no-nonsense guy too, but with the Tigers that can be a good thing, because sometimes he was better at corralling the boys and keeping them on track and not taking a lot of guff. But his wife did do more of the crafty type activities, when those were called for. So perhaps as assistant den leader, that is a role you could fill?

 

Overall, I think I'd wait a bit and see how things play out and how he interacts with the boys. We've switched packs before due to poor leadership, so I totally get that, but I think I'd give it more time in your situation.

[Catwoman]

Personally, I think I'd just go along with what the Den Leader wants, and if the Packmaster has an issue with it, he and the DL can fight it out.

 

I would much prefer to be on the good side of the guy I was going to be working with on a regular basis, and since you're supposed to be his assistant, I think you should just throw the rulebook out the window and go with the flow, as long as the kids seem to be having a good time.

 

This is just Cub Scouts. It's just a fun activity for most of the kids; why make a big fuss over when they get a particular emblem?

 

I know I sound like I don't care about the rules, but as I see it, the DL is going to be the one in trouble if he does things the wrong way, so I view it as being his problem to deal with, and not yours.

 

I would just smile and cooperate and hope the kids have a great time. (Otherwise, if you're a real nuisance, DL might quit and then you'll be stuck being the new Den Leader.)

[Jpoy85]

 

This is just Cub Scouts. It's just a fun activity for most of the kids; why make a big fuss over when they get a particular emblem?

 

 

To me (C is in girl Scouts as a Brownie) it is a big deal even if it is Cub Scouts. There are still protocols and rules for how to earn the badges/beads/etc. It is suppose to be fun i agree. Its suppose to be about learning things not just 1/2 a$$ing it and getting a badge. (ex: at our old girl scout group, which we left because it was chaos-- they walked the girls to the outside recycling bin and then gave them a badge for taking care of earth.....thats not my idea of teaching them anything about recycling-- there should be more to it)

[angela in ohio]

We worked on Bobcat and Tiger simultaneously. I've never heard differently. I think working on just the Bobcat up front would be unbelievably boring. It took weeks of practicing at the beginning of meetings for the boys to be able to earn their Bobcat. We handed them out at B&G, long after they had earned their Tiger beads. As a pp said, you need Bobcat for the Tiger badge anyway. I think, in the scheme of Scouting, you are worrying about a minor technical issue and being too picky.

 

It is certainly not doing it halfway to do things in a different order. That is completely different than not doing them at all or doing them poorly.

 

Honestly, he sounds great to me. What isn't ideal for you for Tigers is going to be perfect for older Scouts. And I would prefer a leader for Tigers who was more Scouts and less crafts (which don't appeal much to my ds.) I think it's great when Dads get involved, and we need to let them lead their way. It is going to be his way, because he is the DL. You might be better off joining another Pack only if you can be the DL for your son.

Edited September 11, 2012 by angela in ohio

[Lily_Grace]

I don't think it's worth jumping ship, but I do think keeping an eye on things and feeling out how the boys respond is a good idea. It'd be worth noting that only one of each of the five requirements are done as a den - the F and Gs and all the electives can be done in the family. Meaning, go to the den meetings, get a feel for it, and use your den leader training at home.

 

Honestly, he sounds great to me. What isn't ideal for you for Tigers is going to be perfect for older Scouts. And I would prefer a leader for Tigers who was more Scouts and less crafts (which don't appeal much to my ds.) I think it's great when Dads get involved, and we need to let them lead their way. It is going to be his way, because he is the DL. You might be better off joining another Pack only if you can be the DL for your son.

 

That's the thing, I think. What is right for one age isn't for another. I was Webelos leader and stepped down to let the upper leadership for the Boy Scouts take over their training. The boys needed the two men, not me. This year I'm the Tigers leader and get to take them on little hikes and play fun games and just do the general, overall silliness part. I don't have to worry about preparing them for boy scouts. My job is to teach them basic scout principles, how to work together as a group, and getting them to try new things.

[mom2scouts]

The bead issue isn't a big thing for me. Let them earn their beads. They have to earn the Bobcat before their Tiger Rank, but the beads are for IMMEDIATE recognition when they complete any of their required activities and they really don't have to wait for Bobcat to do that. I would be more concerned about the lack of fun. It's designed to be "fun with a purpose", but the boys are there for fun! Without that, boys will leave. The Cubmaster or Pack Committee needs to take him aside and talk to him about not making it like school or an adult meeting. Maybe they (or some experienced Tiger leaders like you) can help him prepare some fun activities to add to his meeting. I wouldn't leave a Pack over this issue. We always tell parents that if they don't like anything about the way our Pack is run, we welcome them to take over that particular activity. We're open to different ways of doing things. Nobody has taken us up on that offer yet.

[marbel]

I think it depends on how much you can stand his different style. If it really bothers you, and it's going to be this way till June, then it might be better for you to find a new pack. Though if it's about you and your discomfort, well... it should be more about your boys and their enjoyment of Scouts - and the value they get out of it. (Which of course includes learning the procedures and following them.)

 

You could also suggest he find a different assistant since you disagree with the way he wants to do things. It also sounds like you don't really like his style. (That's not a criticism of you or your feelings about him.)

 

My kid started at Webelos, so I don't know anything about Cub rules and procedures and such. From talking with Scout parents at other troops, I gather that there is some latitude on how things are done and there is variation among troops. How much should be tolerated, I don't know.

 

Hope you come to a good resolution!

[Soror]

We worked on Bobcat and Tiger simultaneously. I've never heard differently. I think working on just the Bobcat up front would be unbelievably boring. It took weeks of practicing at the beginning of meetings for the boys to be able to earn their Bobcat. We handed them out at B&G, long after they had earned their Tiger beads. As a pp said, you need Bobcat for the Tiger badge anyway. I think, in the scheme of Scouting, you are worrying about a minor technical issue and being too picky.

 

It is certainly not doing it halfway to do things in a different order. That is completely different than not doing them at all or doing them poorly.

 

Honestly, he sounds great to me. What isn't ideal for you for Tigers is going to be perfect for older Scouts. And I would prefer a leader for Tigers who was more Scouts and less crafts (which don't appeal much to my ds.) I think it's great when Dads get involved, and we need to let them lead their way. It is going to be his way, because he is the DL. You might be better off joining another Pack only if you can be the DL for your son.

:iagree: I prefer that kind of leader as well for Cub Scouts, personally, it is why dh is the cubscout leader in our family and I just play a support role.

 

However, though I don't know if I could be the assistant to someone, other than my spouse in that way.

[mirth]

the Packmaster, who said no, Bobcat needs to be first, but the Leader is going this route anyway (he told me about this conversation). Ugh. So then in a conversation I have with the Packmaster, PM also mentioned that he, PM, is not waivering on the fact that Bobcat needs to be earned first before Tiger beads are given out. So now I am stuck with either doing what DL wants, which is to give out beads tomorrow night based on our den activity,(no one has got Bobcat yet because this is our first meeting) or going against his wishes and following the rules of PM and Handbook.

 

How frustrating! If I were you, I would not do anything knowing it violates your interpretation of the CSA rules and opposes what the PM told you explicitly. Tell these two guys about the conflict and ask them both to send you a signed-off schedule of what to do. I would stay and let this set my first precedent. If they cannot come up with one unified idea for a Tiger Cub den meeting for crying out loud, I would leave. Btw, I think yes the kids must do all the things that get them the Bobcat badge first. Also, have you considered how busy you are going to be the first meeting if you have to lead everything, plus record and hand out all these little beads at the end by yourself?

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I wouldn't leave after one or two meetings. That isn't giving you or the leader a chance to work things out. This guy is a scout newbie and probably a tad overzealous in his idea of what he wants the den to be and how to get there. That will change with experience and the personality, group dynamic of the den. I know when I began scouts with my son I was a bit militaristic and regimented. That lasted about three meetings.

 

I wonder if he read the documentation for Tiger leaders and panicked? I know I did when I read the paperwork for my Bear Den. The writing imparts a sense of urgency in following the schedule if the leader wants to insure the boys earn Bobcat, Bear and arrow points by a certain date.

 

I also wonder if he has completed his training yet. That might make a difference in how he perceives the objective of Tigers and Cub Scouting.

 

 

As the Assistant Leader I would kindly suggest a meeting in which both of you (and possibly the CM) can discuss your concerns and ideas.

[SailorMom]

1st - a kid only has to memorize a few things to get Bobcat. I had my Tigers learn it at home and practice it at one meeting for about 5 minutes. This should not take up den time in my opinion, and I agree it would be really really boring for the boys.

 

2nd - If the Tigers want to get their Tiger Scout Badge at the Blue and Gold in February (ish) they need to start working on the beads ASAP.

 

Sounds to me like you have a really organized leader. He isn't doing anything wrong, just different.

 

As for military-ish and not fluffy, I think boys get enough of that in other places like teachers and parents. Let the den leader be a little tough on them. I think you'll be surprised at how much a lot of the boys like this and enjoy being treated as "little men" instead of little kids. My sons loved having leaders that sort of leadership.

 

I've been Cubmaster, den leader, committee chair (in both Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts) and really - Cub Scouts is just for fun. Yes - all of the requirements need to be met, but until Bear or Webelo, I wouldn't make a case over how it is done - I mean- how serious can you really take making a leaf rubbing or going to a fire station? :)

Edited September 11, 2012 by SailorMom

[Joshin]

Get him a copy of the cub scout leader book, it has all the meetings laid out for the entire year. I think it costs around $8 at the scout shop. He'll need to plan very little and the handbook will keep him on track awards-wise. Tell your concerns to the Cubmaster and let them handle it. This is really a problem for the pack leadership to handle, if they see it as a problem.

 

I'm a cubmaster, den leader and district trainer. A lot of new leaders (and experienced leaders) misunderstand Bobcat requirements. All boys that show up and try for those first three meetings before the pack meeting should get their Bobcat. In Cub Scouts, it's "do your best." A lot of parents and leaders think their child has to memorize every Bobcat requirement. For Webelos, yes, but for younger scouts they just need to try their best. I've found spending 15 minutes each meeting and some at-home practice gets them their Bobcat by the first pack meeting, then we would recite the Promise, etc, at our den opening for the rest of the year. By the end of the year, the boys have it memorized backward and forward.

[Alicia64]

Here's my .02 after trying with a very boring den leader for wolf and bear years: leave. Our boring den leader was in for the long haul turns out. He had his Eagle and was fully prepared to go through the years as a den leader.

 

He wasn't in the military, but worked in an adjunct of it. He wasn't super bossy or anything like that, but he didn't take any hints/suggestions/offers of help from me when I tried very gingerly to make his den a little more fun.

 

He was snoozeville.

 

Good luck -- it was a hard call for us too.

 

Alley