s/o of those who hire housekeepers - $ dilemma

[Brilliant]

We just moved from a very large house to one that's almost 40% smaller - and proportionally fewer bathrooms, etc. I had a housekeeper come in at the old house on an occasional basis, and I asked her to look at the new house & tell me how much she'd charge for the same. In addition to the house being smaller, it is MUCH closer to her house and would reduce her travel time and gas $.

 

I was SHOCKED that she reduced her rate by a less than 15%. I had a range in mind based on comparing the sizes of the houses (which was confirmed by what the owners of our current house mentioned they had been paying someone).

 

I don't know why she's asking more than the going rate. The only reasons I can come up with is that she either thinks I can afford it & will pay it, or maybe that even though the house will take less time, it will still be more than half a day's work and she needs to bring home a minimum amount per day?

 

As we chatted I think she picked up on my distress and she back-pedaled a bit with statements like "whatever you think is fair." So now I'm in a quandary. I like this woman and want to give her some work. But I don't want to pay how much she originally asked for. I'm sure she would do it for less (I guess I'd have to offer the high end of the range I was considering) and that she would be happy to have the work. BUT I am just totally uncomfortable with bargaining with her. I think I'll forever feel like I'm the client that cheated her, in my eyes and hers.

 

So my options are:

1. Hire someone else (or clean it myself)

2. Pay her the high rate she requested

3. Pay her a lower rate and feel like a cheap jerk.

 

I hate all the options. I wish she had just quoted me a reasonable rate to begin with. :( What would you do?

[jujsky]

Hire someone else. See if you can get the name of the person the original owners used and see if she will honor the rate she gave them, or close to it.

[atara]

This is what I started doing.

 

I have sitter come 3 days/week for a couple hours. There were ALREADY wanting $8-$10 per hour. SO...I put an ad on care.com that I would pay $10.00 to watch my child and do light housekeeping. I had six people apply! Of course I check references, stay here while they are here, etc. to make sure but I have had VERY good success with this site.

 

So anyway, back to housekeeping, I have them do vacuuming, dusting, wiping counters, windex mirrors, etc. Then when I ran out of those things I had my sitter do intense dusting - like the tops of the freezer and hall shelves. I am loving it! I get a break AND my house cleaned. I still do the other cleanings, but having clean floors, mirrors, counters, and some folded towels has done WONDERS for my stress level.

 

I hope that gives someone an idea.:)

[brett_ashley]

Switch to an hourly rate with a certain hour minimum that splits the difference. I love doing that because sometimes the guest room and bath don't need cleaning so she can do the ceiling fans or fridge instead.

[GoVanGogh]

I wish she had just quoted me a reasonable rate to begin with.

I would think she did quote you a reasonable price if you had a good working relationship with her.

 

Just because a house is smaller doesn't mean it is an easier house to clean. I haven't downsized, but I didn't think it was much more housework when we went from an apartment to a house. The house is twice the size of the apartment, but still - two bathrooms, one kitchen, which is where I think the bulk of housework is. Dusting and vacuuming a larger space doesn't take much more physical effort than cleaning a smaller space. But baths and the kitchen? That is where the time/effort is.

 

Another thing to consider, maybe she has a min that she charges and that is what she quoted?

[momtokea]

My housekeeper charges by the hour.

 

I pay her $128 for 4 hours of cleaning. I expect my whole house to be cleaned in that time. If she can't do it in that time that means she is working too slowly and I will not pay her for more than 4 hours. If it takes her more than 4 hours, that's her problem.

 

I would suggest an hourly rate and tell your housekeeper to do it in x amount of hours.

[MrsBear]

My housekeeper's initial rate was based on how long she estimated it would take to clean the house, top to bottom, each week. We then discussed how much it would be if she did just the main floor, or if she did the main + upper or lower. I wanted to know each scenario because I don't always need it all done every time.

 

Whole house (5,500 SF) = $125

 

Main floor + upper or lower = $100

My upper is only 1000SF, my lower is 2,200SF - but the upper is more complicated than the lower level is, even though it's much, much bigger.

 

Main only (2,300SF) = $75

 

In any given week, she gets the same whether she takes 4 hours or she takes 8+ hours, or somewhere in between and how long it takes varies each week since I do whole house in weeks where we're having company come and then the week after they're gone, the upper or lower alternating when it's just us for weeks on end, and just the main floor when we're away on vacation and no one is here, or just DH is, but he's at work more than here, so no real messes to worry about.

 

I don't think it's just size that matters, but what it takes to get even a smaller space cleaned. In our case, the lower level is very easy to do, even though it's big - it's vacuuming and dusting and the bathroom down there since it's a rec room, playroom and bathroom to do. Upstairs on the other hand, while much smaller in size, has three bedrooms to make beds, a bathroom that needs towel changes and cleaning, in addition to the vacuuming, and dusting of more furniture and other things. So for time, the upper level and lower are comparable for time to get done, even though one level is twice the size of the other.

[snickelfritz]

We recently moved, to almost double the square footage. Our housekeeper did not (not even close) double her rate. And she kept us, when she dropped several to cut back. So, I think she probably does have a mental minimum, because she can only do 1 house a day.

 

When she does an estimate, she considers things like tile vs. carpet. And a small bathroom is just about as time consuming as a big bathroom.

 

ETA--I don't know what you should do. If you really like her, I would ask for a breakdown. Or individual estimates to do fewer rooms. Maybe that would help you understand her estimate.

[ma23peas]

We used a wonderful housekeeper for 3 years (busiest time when I was doing 100% of homeschooling/farm stuff)..now that my kids are older and great helpers, we don't need her (well, I would sure WANT her, but we need money for all the gas we spend now!!)

 

I paid $75 each cleaning in a 3000 sq. ft. house, when we moved to a 4000 sq. ft house she upped it to $90...when we got in a pinch...we asked her to come every 2 weeks for $100...she was fine doing that...there is more to clean waiting 2 weeks that is why we offered her more...Hope this gives you some kind of reasonable offer..I would offer her the amount you are willing to pay first and explain that you understand if she can not do it for that rate....then if she says no find someone else...times are tough, I would not go switching without giving her the option.

[mazakaal]

I would go back to her, if you really like her, and tell her that you thought her offer would be closer to $x (whatever amount the previous owner told you that she has been paying). Explain why and see how she responds. If she doesn't feel like she can go that low, then go with the housekeeper that the previous owner hired.

[Barbara H]

Just for what it is worth... I worked for a maid service when I was in college. It was a chain so I didn't set the rates but the rates they for a one bedroom apartment or a 4,000 square foot house were different. But, the difference between a 1,800 square foot house and a 3,500 square foot house were probably less than 10% different. The time to clean these two different size houses was not as different for a maid as you might expect. I believe the logic was that you can only clean so many houses in a day anyway - solo that's two houses a day a thousand square feet won't matter. There are a lot of fixed time costs that don't change a lot based on size. The only thing that would make a big difference would be adding spa tubs, or tough to clean glass shower doors, or if high shedding dogs.

 

If you like the person who cleans and she does a good job, I would try to negotiate something you can both be happy with.

[Unicorn.]

Are her hours going to be decreased by 40%? The way I look at it is; 4hours of work is 4 hours of work. I think decreasing by 15% is probably pretty fair.

[elegantlion]

I will add that when we cleaned we didn't factor travel time into a bid, so the fact it's closer may be irrelevant to her price. We bid per job, no matter how long it took. Our rates are outdated, but with dh and I doing the work (he's so much better and faster than me) we could do two large houses a day, 2500sf +, or two smaller and one larger, depending upon distance.

 

We had a bid several years ago to do our 1100sf house. It was clean, not cluttered, but not minimalistic either. I was shocked at the bid price. It was at least twice what we would have charged. We opted to keep cleaning it ourselves.

[brett_ashley]

I believe the logic was that you can only clean so many houses in a day anyway - solo that's two houses a day a thousand square feet won't matter.

 

I think this is probably what she's thinking. She can still only clean 2 houses a day, so the cost of holding her "slot" won't change that much.

 

s/o--I'm shocked at how my housekeeper's other clients treat her, routinely canceling on her (and NOT paying!) because they're out of town or whatever, not paying FICA taxes, etc.

 

Babysitters too--Look, I'm sorry your kids got sick and you had to cancel but in between the time you reserved the sitter and you canceled, she turned down two other jobs!

[Murphy101]

I likely can't afford a housekeeper, however, I want one anyways. I have discovered that my limit of children + home school + life getting lived is 10 children. Since my newest addition I can't ever seem to catch up. My biggest issue is all the house cleaners I have called say they will come out for 2 hours and do whatever I tell them for that 2 hours. UG! I do not have time to tell people to clean stuff. If I did, I already have 9 people I could tell to do it.

 

I want to have someone come out once a week and detail (aka top to bottom thorough cleaning) if the bathrooms and kitchen/dining. In addition to that, every other month, I want the entire house detailed from top to bottom, including interior of windows. I do not want to be home. I do not want to direct them as to what to clean.

 

I can't find anyone to do that. They just don't work that way or idk what? Frustrating. :(

[Candid]

A guess from things I've talked about with my lady who's been with me a long, long time. First, they often don't move rates up quickly so she may have sat on yours for a while and is using the change to catch up to what she would charge. Next, gas has gone up quite a bit and I know my lady is getting ready to knock my rate up in response to that so even though she is closer she may still be paying more to get to you.

 

Finally, I'm not totally sure that there is a "going rate." When I did interview folks I had widely varying rates. The highest was twice as much as the lowest.

 

So if I were you, I'd get an other estimate or two. By all means talk to the person the previous owner had used. You may find they will want more for you since they'll adjust their rates with a new person. Then weight those estimates with how you like your current person.

[MrsBear]

 

s/o--I'm shocked at how my housekeeper's other clients treat her, routinely canceling on her (and NOT paying!) because they're out of town or whatever, not paying FICA taxes, etc.

 

 

My housekeeper has the same thing happening a lot - cancellations for another day or time, or they're away.

 

It is part of running your own business.

 

I don't pay FICA for my housekeeper, she's running a business and fully knows that's on her, she started the business, entered into a contract (verbal or written) with you and understands when she quotes a price to you to do the cleaning, she's got FICA employer-match to pay as her cost of self-employment!

 

When you go to eat out, do you tip + leave FICA? When you go to the doctor, do you pay + pay FICA he'll pay for his salary and his staff's? Nope, it's the cost of doing business and factored into rates/fees already.

[MrsBear]

I likely can't afford a housekeeper, however, I want one anyways. I have discovered that my limit of children + home school + life getting lived is 10 children. Since my newest addition I can't ever seem to catch up. My biggest issue is all the house cleaners I have called say they will come out for 2 hours and do whatever I tell them for that 2 hours. UG! I do not have time to tell people to clean stuff. If I did, I already have 9 people I could tell to do it.

 

I want to have someone come out once a week and detail (aka top to bottom thorough cleaning) if the bathrooms and kitchen/dining. In addition to that, every other month, I want the entire house detailed from top to bottom, including interior of windows. I do not want to be home. I do not want to direct them as to what to clean.

 

I can't find anyone to do that. They just don't work that way or idk what? Frustrating. :(

 

Make a list of all you need done, room by room, for someone to follow....interview with the list and do a walk-through with them. That should do it.

[Desert Rat]

I think that she did quote you a reasonable price (for her) too, if you had a good relationship. I haven't raised my rates in 2 years. I would like to. Cleaning supplies, gas, and the toll on my body are higher. But, it's hard to have that talk and ask for more money, so I don't. New clients get a higher fee. She may have thought it a good time to raise her rates with you because you moved to a new house. I wouldn't take it personally; it's business. If you don't like her rates, tell her and see if you can work something out. If not, don't feel bad letting her walk away.

[brett_ashley]

I don't pay FICA for my housekeeper, she's running a business and fully knows that's on her, she started the business, entered into a contract (verbal or written) with you and understands when she quotes a price to you to do the cleaning, she's got FICA employer-match to pay as her cost of self-employment!

 

When you go to eat out, do you tip + leave FICA? When you go to the doctor, do you pay + pay FICA he'll pay for his salary and his staff's? Nope, it's the cost of doing business and factored into rates/fees already.

 

She is not self-employed. If I give her instructions on what I need done and how, she is my employee according to federal tax law. I don't supervise waitresses and doctors--I don't understand the analogy?

 

From the IRS: "You have a household employee if you hired someone to do household work and that worker is your employee. The worker is your employee if you can control not only what work is done, but how it is done. If the worker is your employee, it does not matter whether the work is full time or part time or that you hired the worker through an agency or from a list provided by an agency or association. It also does not matter whether you pay the worker on an hourly, daily, or weekly basis, or by the job."

[Murphy101]

She is not self-employed. If I give her instructions on what I need done and how, she is my employee according to federal tax law. I don't supervise waitresses and doctors--I don't understand the analogy?

 

From the IRS: "You have a household employee if you hired someone to do household work and that worker is your employee. The worker is your employee if you can control not only what work is done, but how it is done. If the worker is your employee, it does not matter whether the work is full time or part time or that you hired the worker through an agency or from a list provided by an agency or association. It also does not matter whether you pay the worker on an hourly, daily, or weekly basis, or by the job."

 

 

Whether they are your employee doesn't matter. There are all kind of different types of employees and, no, not all of them get FICA paid or any other benefits or what all else.

 

Contracted employees are still employees, but, yes, they are also self employeed.

 

My dh has done plenty of contract hourly work where his work is supervised by someone else and he works at their facility. It's industry standard that he is considered a self employed contracted employee.

 

Whether a maid would have the same set up would depend on the working situation she willingly entered into and they mutually agreed to.

[Jennifer3141]

If you pay your housekeeper more than $1700 a year, yes you are supposed to pay taxes on her. Realistically, very few do. Unless they run for Congress and "suddenly remember."

[MrsBear]

She is not self-employed. If I give her instructions on what I need done and how, she is my employee according to federal tax law. I don't supervise waitresses and doctors--I don't understand the analogy?

 

From the IRS: "You have a household employee if you hired someone to do household work and that worker is your employee. The worker is your employee if you can control not only what work is done, but how it is done. If the worker is your employee, it does not matter whether the work is full time or part time or that you hired the worker through an agency or from a list provided by an agency or association. It also does not matter whether you pay the worker on an hourly, daily, or weekly basis, or by the job."

 

IRS: All evidence of control and independence in this relationship should be considered. The facts that provide this evidence fall into three categories - Behavioral Control, Financial Control, and the Relationship of the Parties.

 

If you're the only one she cleans for, yes, she may be an employee; but if she has multiple homes she does for other people, and you do not control her schedule, she is, by definition, self-employed and needs to take care of her own taxes.

 

If she is free to raise her rate before the end of a term, she is an independent contractor; if you control raises, she is an employee.

 

If she provides cleaning supplies herself, brings her own vacuum and cleaning tools, she's an independent contractor, not an employee, unless you pay for her supplies and tools.

 

If she may do her work without your specific direction, that is HOW to do it, then you simply telling her what you need done does not make her an employee - you tell your plumber what you need done too, he's not an employee - but if you specifically direct HOW she does her cleaning, then yeah, you've got an employee. And really, do you tell her HOW? Really? Like she's clueless about cleaning a toilet?

[MrsBear]

If you pay your housekeeper more than $1700 a year, yes you are supposed to pay taxes on her. Realistically, very few do. Unless they run for Congress and "suddenly remember."

 

Or if they're self-employed....mine has a company name, her name DBA, I'm not responsible for any of her taxes, she is!

 

Or if she's with a cleaning company you hire.

[Catwoman]

Hire someone else. See if you can get the name of the person the original owners used and see if she will honor the rate she gave them, or close to it.

 

:iagree:

 

That's exactly what I was thinking. (And if you don't know how to contact the previous owners, ask your neighbors for recommendations. They may very well be using the same cleaning service.)

[Mom2Es]

I don't pay FICA for my housekeeper, she's running a business and fully knows that's on her, she started the business, entered into a contract (verbal or written) with you and understands when she quotes a price to you to do the cleaning, she's got FICA employer-match to pay as her cost of self-employment!

 

Years ago when I read the book Speed Cleaning, I learned that the IRS almost never considers an individual house cleaner to be an independent contractor/self-employed. If you provide any of their supplies or control when, what, or how the cleaning is done, then the IRS considers them a household employee and you are on the hook for FICA (even if they put a flyer in your mailbox advertising "So-and-so Housekeeping Business"). It's covered in IRS Publication 926. Remember during the Clinton years when there were a few potential appointees with a "nanny problem?" This type of situation was part of the problem.

[elegantlion]

Or if they're self-employed....mine has a company name, her name DBA, I'm not responsible for any of her taxes, she is!

 

Or if she's with a cleaning company you hire.

 

This is how we operated our business. We were not employees of the homeowners, we were a company hired to clean.

[brett_ashley]

It doesn't matter whether she's with an agency. It depends on who the supervisor is.

[Jennifer3141]

It doesn't matter whether she's with an agency. It depends on who the supervisor is.

 

You really need to read the current tax code. :001_smile:

[brett_ashley]

You really need to read the current tax code. :001_smile:

 

or maybe the irs does? wouldn't surprise me! :lol:

 

i cut and pasted from Pub 926. "If the worker is your employee, it does not matter that you hired the worker through an agency.

[LucyStoner]

 

From the IRS: "You have a household employee if you hired someone to do household work and that worker is your employee. The worker is your employee if you can control not only what work is done, but how it is done. If the worker is your employee, it does not matter whether the work is full time or part time or that you hired the worker through an agency or from a list provided by an agency or association. It also does not matter whether you pay the worker on an hourly, daily, or weekly basis, or by the job."

 

If a cleaning service is a registered business and you give them leeway on the order and method of cleaning, they can legally be their own boss. Especially if they provide the tools of their trade and have business insurance. Most cleaners are not supervised by the customers because they clean when the house is empty. I only hire places that are legit businesses- with insurance, their own tax id number etc. As a self employed person myself, I expect to pay my own taxes. If I was paying someone as a household employee, I would not be forking over $25 an hour for a wage- that $25 includes his cost of doing business, insurance and taxes. Years ago I did the books for legit cleaning company (2 women who worked together) and I filed their quarterlies for them, no problems with the IRS. I don't control how the work is done, just check as a customer to make sure it is done.

[MrsBear]

Years ago when I read the book Speed Cleaning, I learned that the IRS almost never considers an individual house cleaner to be an independent contractor/self-employed. If you provide any of their supplies or control when, what, or how the cleaning is done, then the IRS considers them a household employee and you are on the hook for FICA (even if they put a flyer in your mailbox advertising "So-and-so Housekeeping Business"). It's covered in IRS Publication 926. Remember during the Clinton years when there were a few potential appointees with a "nanny problem?" This type of situation was part of the problem.

 

Incorrect, because the IRS does not hold the the person contracting someone who advertises a service, with a company name, responsible to verify they are indeed registered with the IRS or state since they can (and often do) run a company without an FEIN by using their social security number alone.

 

As I noted, if they're bringing supplies (that you're not paying specifically for), tools, vacuums, etc. - they're independent, not your employee.

 

If they're bonded, carry their own insurance, etc. - they're not your employee.

 

If you do not control their schedule - they work for others - they're not employees.

 

The IRS has specific tests that protect you, and them, should an issue arise and I know for sure my housekeeper isn't my employee.

[MrsBear]

or maybe the irs does? wouldn't surprise me! :lol:

 

i cut and pasted from Pub 926. "If the worker is your employee, it does not matter that you hired the worker through an agency.

 

That applies if you POACHED them from the agency and paid them directly, no longer paying the agency....if you are paying the agency, THEY are responsible as the employer, not you! That may also apply IF you used an agency to find a nanny, housekeeper, eldercare, etc. and paid a finder's fee and pay the person directly, not the agency - but if you pay the agency each time they work, or the agency bills you, the agency is the employer, not you.

 

Good grief, how would anyone have their own business if anyone you had coming into your home was your employee?

[elegantlion]

That applies if you POACHED them from the agency and paid them directly, no longer paying the agency....if you are paying the agency, THEY are responsible as the employer, not you! That may also apply IF you used an agency to find a nanny, housekeeper, eldercare, etc. and paid a finder's fee and pay the person directly, not the agency - but if you pay the agency each time they work, or the agency bills you, the agency is the employer, not you.

 

Good grief, how would anyone have their own business if anyone you had coming into your home was your employee?

 

:iagree: I previously worked for a temporary agency as an office worker. I worked with a company, but was an employee of the agency. I was eventually hired by the company itself, then I became their employee not the agencies.

[Guest Tunie]

Sorry, new here, looking for where to post a new thread! Don't see how to delete this.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Tunie