Teenagers!

[JennifersLost]

Advice, please - here's the situation in a nutshell.

 

17yo boy.

 

Smart. Gets solid grades in classes he likes (he was homeschooled for years, now public schooled by his choice). Gets crap grades in the class he hates (French)

 

At every meal we eat together as a family he makes some comment about what he'd like to be eating (as opposed to what we're eating). Today he talked about the Paleo diet. He wants to eat 1/2 meat. "Can we go on the diet?" No. "It's really healthy." We don't want to eat that way. "There's lots of research...." and on and on until dh tells him point blank to stop. There's never, ever a "Mom, thanks for dinner that was great." Never. BTW - I specially bought high-grade hamburgers tonight for a treat for the meat-eaters of the family.

 

At PS he has to do "grad transitions" - a series of extra assignments in order to graduate. I think a lot of districts have this now. He is far behind on the assignments and only does them when forced to by me taking away his computer time. These are not hard things - he is more than capable, he rarely has much homework from school, he doesn't have a job.....

 

When pressed, he says he can do it all two weeks before graduation. Sometimes he says why should he graduate, he's not going to college. Why not? (He wants to be an accountant) Because we're not just going to pay to send him to a 4 yr college. If he can't get a free ride, why should he go at all (okay, it's not quite that blatant, but just about)

 

Speaking of not having a job. He knows he has to pay for 1/2 of college and he still doesn't have a job. Occasionally he goes and hands in a resume. He won't apply to any job that fits his exact specifications, unless forced. We have a store that's literally two blocks away and hires tons of teens. He refused to put in a resume for months. He doesn't want to do any physical work (God forbid!).

 

He makes comments constantly about the things he doesn't have, the things we should do, all of which cost money. We remind him just as constantly that as soon as he gets a job he'll be able to buy them for himself....

 

To top it off he wanders around with a hangdog expression and tells everyone who will listen in our community how hard he has it. When the grandparents come over and ask about karate, he tells them he can't go to any tournaments because we can't afford it. Um...the deal is he has to help pay for it. And he doesn't want to. He gets plenty of money from birthday, xmas, etc. He wouldn't even have to get a job to swing it!

 

Right now he's lost most of his privileges. We took computer rights away for a month, kept him out of karate for a month, made him stay in the living room all day rather than in the rec room/his room. He did just enough to get some of those back, then immediately slacked off again. Since he won't get a job, we've assigned him to dish duty for every meal he's home for. Not fun, granted, but I did every meal for years and years and I certainly didn't mope every day! And we didn't own a dishwasher back when I was doing it.

 

I am so done. I swear his joy is to ruin it for the rest of the family. I feel like I need to let him fail big time - I can't believe I'm checking his grad transitions stuff weekly. Isn't the whole point of graduating to be responsible for yourself? And he wonders why we're not sending him away to college? Please.

 

I feel like this has nothing to do with us, actually. I feel like he's a miserable teen, and kind of lazy. He'd rather be a martyr than get his (easy!) work done. I love him, I hug him, I tip-toe around and try to make him happy, and he sucks it up and gives NOTHING back. He rarely even smiles at me, let alone every says anything nice.

 

Now what? How do I help this kid see that really he's only messing up himself????? For the most part I've separated my happiness from this child's happiness - a hard thing to do as a mother, but necessary. I am learning not to be jerked around by his manipulations (he comes home from karate and pretends to be so tired he can't eat - let alone wash the dishes! Looks at me with puppy dog eyes struggling to raise fork to mouth. Sheesh!)

 

Where did this kid come from? The rest of us have our good moods and bad moods, but we make an effort, do the work, try to get along.....

 

If he worked 1/10 as hard to be happy or productive as he does to be miserable the kid would be amazing!

 

Advice. Please.

[Danestress]

And by "long range" I mean in 17 year old boy terms, which is to say, after he graduates? Does he really plan to forego college? Has he applied anywhere? Will he get a job when he graduates?

 

Does his school have a lot of very privileged kids at it? It sounds like maybe he's spending time with kids who have parents who pay for college, activities, etc, and he doesn't realize that broad terms, he's incredibly lucky to have parents who will pay half of his college.

 

Does he have anything he aspires to and actually is working for?

[Harriet Vane]

My own teenager is still young, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

 

First :grouphug: for you. It sounds unbelievably frustrating.

 

Second, graduation is not that far away (two months, right?). My thought is to do what it takes to get that high school diploma under his belt (even if it means holding his hand as you have been doing, and more so). THEN, once that is done, to institute a system of earning his keep. By this I mean requiring him to work for YOU until he gets a job, fills out college apps, whatever you determine is appropriate.

 

Two examples spring to mind. One year dh was unable to find a summer job, though he did try strenuously. His parents required him to work for them instead, so he spent the summer cleaning the house, cooking, and doing yard work. EXTENSIVELY. They treated it as a JOB, with required hours.

 

The other example I think of is skier Picabo Street. Remember her? I read her autobiography years ago. Her parents were not rich people, and they worked hard and sacrificed to make her Olympic career possible. At one point her father was working out-of-state, so they rented Picabo an apartment with the understanding that she would maintain her exercise schedule. She did not--she chose to use her apartment for partying. Her coaches reported her shoddy attendance and gave her parents details about how her body and her skills were deteriorating. Her parents were incensed. Picabo was put on probation by her coaches and sent to her parents, who then put her on a program of earning her keep. She worked her tail off. One detail I remember is that she wasn't allowed to eat unless she first did sit-ups. It was hard core, and had the effect of sobering her up.

 

Just some thoughts, though as I said I haven't raised any teens to adulthood, so YMMV.

[Rose in BC]

Jennifer parenting teens isn't for the faint-hearted ( which i know you know :)).And some are easier than others. Here's some advice I have recently received from a councillor regarding difficult children. Pay more attention to the ones that aren't causing the grief. The grumpy gusses naturally command more attention even if it's negative.

 

It's hard to do but I think the point is sometimes the easy kids get short changed attention just because they're easy. And the negative ones drain us of all our energy as we try and figure out how to change them. And we never succeed in changing them. (I know of what I speak :).

 

For what it's worth :).

Edited April 21, 2012 by Rose in BC

[kalanamak]

No advice, but my "vent pal" at work has son JUST LIKE THIS. OMG, I thought you were perhaps a male psychiatrist from Russia, and that I've worked with you for years! :lol::lol: You even use the words he does! However, your son hasn't call the police to come "talk" to you about increasing his allowance!

 

:grouphug: These things, too, shall pass.

[SKL]

I might say to him, "since you are not taking the responsibility of a young adult who is about to be done with school, maybe you are not ready to graduate. So if you decide not to do your schoolwork, which we both know you are capable of doing, you can go back to 12th grade next year." Meanwhile I'd make sure his chores are in line with his age and what it costs to support him. My mom had a policy that if you worked and paid $__ per week in room and board, you got a break from most chores. So that might encourage him to try that.

 

Is there any slightly older role model who could spend some time with your son? Maybe a little sense of responsibility could rub off?

 

Another thought is to get him involved in doing some meaningful volunteer work, such as tutoring disadvantaged kids. It can get him used to the rhythm of working while inspiring him to think beyond his own wants. It can also look good on a resume while he looks for a paying job.

 

Why is he refusing to work? Is it really laziness or is it insecurity / fear of rejection? When I was 18 and on summer break from college, my mom told me to go to the retail center in the nearby city and "darken every doorstep" until I had a job. Request a resume, ask about openings, and don't be too picky. I was nervous as heck, but I had a job in less than an hour.

 

I also think your son should cook and serve dinner one day per week. He may never say "thanks for dinner, Mom," but he'll probably stop complaining about it as a matter of course.

[Lawana]

Oh no. I have a just turned 13 son who sounds a lot like this. I was really hoping it would get better in a few years. Our only saving grace at this point is that he still cares about his relationship with me, and so has limits as to what he will do and say, knowing that to cross them would upset the apple cart.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:I wish I had answers.

[ondreeuh]

I struggle with some of the same things with my teen too ... I think sometimes it is TOO easy, so there is no urgency or challenge. My daughter is a nice kid but has big problems taking on responsibility. I bet if your son had a full day he would find the time to get stuff done, and take pride in his work. I WISH my dd could get a job - that would be a huge wake-up call for her. Alas, we live in a village with no restaurants or stores, and there are no jobs for teens.

 

My dd takes an online Spanish class that is separate from her regular school work. She has slacked off all year, working at a snail's pace, while I have given her more and more support - sitting down with her to plan out her schedule, giving her a quiet place to work, typing up an entire syllabus, etc. The more I do for her, the less she does for herself, but if I do *nothing* then she will quit. She doesn't want to quit, she just can't pull herself together. She knows that if she gets less than a B she has to pay us back the $400. It has gotten to the point that I openly express my extreme disappointment to her. She hates being the only kid in her high school (total of 6 kids) who gets work done. I finally told her that she was no better than the slacker kid who never turns anything in; the difference is that she has parents who make her do work. That seemed to get through to her (maybe?). Of course then she cries because she is mad at herself ... oy.

 

I finally just gave her a schedule with the dates for the quizzes and tests, and told her that those were firm. Either she gets herself ready or she doesn't, but she is taking the quizzes and tests on those days. Yesterday she had a "misunderstanding" where she neglected to hear me remind her she had a quiz, and forgot to look at her schedule ... so guess who was cramming in two lessons and taking a quiz after I went to bed? She mentioned this morning that she'd only had 4 hours of sleep but knew better than to complain LOL.

 

I would suggest doing something similar for your son. Sometimes those long-term consequences are just too abstract. Go through the list of assignments for that transition plan and schedule them out. Give your son the schedule with due dates, and let him know the DIRE consequence for not meeting the due date. And I would pretty much require him to get a job - not sure how you can do that, but I'd increase his expenses to make it more urgent - make him pay for his own gas, clothes, etc.

[Lucy in Australia]

My eldest is 16 and a few years ago I could see he was starting to allow a certain selfishness to develop and morph into a nasty type of self-pity. We are Christians so I have to say first that a lot of prayer and bible-based discussions regarding character came into play. But the other thing that made a HUGE difference was his Dad taking him firmly in hand, spending more time with him and teaching him about what it was to be a real man. I don't really know the exact conversations they had but it has made a change in him (he still slips into the old "mode" sometimes but snaps out of it :)) I think boys really need their dads' attention during these years, or if not Dad, another strong male role model they respect.

[amy g.]

I hear you. Dh swears my son will grow out of all of it, but I might not survive that long.

 

Yesterday, I took him an hour away, to stand in line for his drivers test. This is the 4th time I've done this, because he keeps forgetting a crucial piece of paperwork, and I refuse to do it for him.

 

I asked him. To look up the address to a DVM that might not have a 4 hour wait, and print directions. He didn't. I asked him before we left to make sure he had the address entered into the GPS. He didn't. I asked him to please keep his eyes open and help me look for street signs, because I didn't know where I was going. He slept in the front seat, and was offended that I was mad.

 

We had a knock down drag out in some parking lot, an hour out of our way,and he kept wanting to say, " let's don't talk about the past, I'm trying. To help you now." Help me? For real?

 

I made him apologize before I would sign his driving paperwork, but he was smarting off to me again when I let him drive home. He didn't like my instructions.

 

Now he is trying to make up to me, because I'm. Still mad, but I wouldn't take him to scouts last night, or to his campout this morning, and I'm not helping him with his driving. I told him that he get his dad to help. That scared him, he said, " then it will never happen."

 

I just keep telling myself, two more years, two more years, I can survive that.

 

He does his homework, makes good grades, cleans the kitchen, works for Miss Good on the weekends, but it infuriates me that he can not see how much we all sacrifice for him.

 

Just keep swimming. Just keep swimming.

[mumto2]

:grouphug: I can ' t say I understand because my dc's are just turning into teenagers. I am trying to ease off on the help. Instill self organization. Dd and I both belong to a patchwork group. We need to put our supplies together before we go. I got what I needed. I actually grabbed extra fabric for Dd in case she had cut things out wrong so I did help her. Anyway we got there and part of the meeting is showing completed block. She had spent most of her free time finishing 2 for that meeting. Did she bring them? No. Who did she blame? Me.

 

It was actually pretty funny. The women cracked up. Dd couldn't believe it when they weren't sympathetic. Will she forget again? I doubt it.

 

All I can say is we have to let them learn. You have done a great job explaining what his options are. He will have to take responsibility eventually.

[bettyandbob]

my oldest is like this, very selfish. He had a job delivering newspapers in 8th grade, but not since. He constantly expects money. He constantly expects rides places (he has no license and we do not have a car for him anyway). He never considers time issues or financial issues. He's been known to ruin any family activity unless it's all about him.

 

I've been wondering about this because his siblings aren't like this at all. dd (14) always "asks" me she doesn't try to "order" me. She never demands the most expensive whatever. She comparison shops. She's had a pet sitting business since she was almost 9 and does not ask for extra money. She freely helps with her little brother and has a few volunteer activities.

 

Youngest ds has disabilities, but I have not noticed selfish behavior in him.

 

Oldest is going away to college next year. It's going to be a real struggle to pay, but honestly it will be a huge relief to have him out of the house. I told dh if ds didn't go dh had to move ds out somewhere because dd deserves some normalcy (not a home where the environment becomes hostile at random opportunities)

 

About a year ago I decided it was OK not to be together as a family. I've taken the younger 2 on a couple of trips. We went camping for 2 days at the beach last summer and we drove to my godmother's home and visited a few days. You know what? Those little trips were fun. No arguing in the car, no demanding to stop for x, y, z. I'd put off visiting my godmother for years because I was afraid ds would behave badly.

 

I'm disappointed that little family activities (like family bike rides or family game rides) could never be something that our group did, but it is a relief to finally accept the reality and start enjoying things differently than I'd planned. I guess I've come to understand why ds's personality is the way it is and that helps too, but the selfishness still gets to me.

[Halftime Hope]

your son hasn't call the police to come "talk" to you about increasing his allowance!

 

 

:lol:

[AmyontheFarm]

All I have to say is "Thank you God, I'm not the only mom going through this!"

[Amy in TX]

:grouphug:

 

Dd17 is the most self-centered of my children. Not quite to the degree that your ds is, but markedly more so than her siblings. I don't know why. I know that she has always been a passionate, high-strung type. She was severely colicky as a baby. All her life, she has wanted what she wanted, when she wanted it, and pushed hard for it. It's hard to make her see the bigger picture (her obligations to others, what is reasonable and what isn't) when she wants something. She tries, though, more than she used to.

 

I think the advice from the poster above to pay more attention to the quiet, compliant dc is very important. It gives the other dc their due, and serves to remind the demanding one (and you) that their needs/wants are not more important than others'.

 

Someone else posted about not hanging your own daily happiness on this child's behavior. Also important advice! I've recently been making a conscious effort to simply not worry so much about this child and enjoy my life more in the moment. You can only do what you can do--set a good example, and have firm limits.

 

I try to take a long view. I look back at myself at her age, and I find that I am much less selfish now (at 47!) than I was in my teens and twenties. Sometimes we only learn things by living long enough.

 

You're a good mother. Hang in there,

[J-rap]

My eldest is 16 and a few years ago I could see he was starting to allow a certain selfishness to develop and morph into a nasty type of self-pity. We are Christians so I have to say first that a lot of prayer and bible-based discussions regarding character came into play. But the other thing that made a HUGE difference was his Dad taking him firmly in hand, spending more time with him and teaching him about what it was to be a real man. I don't really know the exact conversations they had but it has made a change in him (he still slips into the old "mode" sometimes but snaps out of it :)) I think boys really need their dads' attention during these years, or if not Dad, another strong male role model they respect.

 

I think there are many issues involved, which I will not even begin to try to tackle! But, I do think there's some truth to the above. I wonder if there is a an event/project/goal that your husband and son can be working on together. Something that would require challenge and discipline -- but that would result in a feeling of accomplishment.

 

This is a crude analogy, but we used to have a very active collie. When we didn't exercise him (which was often), his behavior would drastically get worse. It was only when he had the opportunity to really "be stretched" (through hard exercise) that he would then turn into the perfect, obedient pet. :)

 

I'm not saying your son needs more physical exercise necessarily, but something that will really push him, stretch him, challenge him -- that results in a goal that he will feel really good about, all done with the guidance of and encouragement of his dad, if that's possible.

 

When my son was high school age and starting to feel restless and independent, my husband did several things with him that I think really impacted his attitude, helped him focus, definitely helped him become more disciplined, and kept him feeling positive. One example is they began biking together, with the goal of entering a cross-state race for MS (350 miles). They trained for this event for months, and it was not always easy! But they had the goal in mind which they had already committed to. The event itself was hard work but so much fun. They were part of a much larger group/event that was very well organized. They camped every night with hundreds of other cyclists, and had the time of their life. Two years later, they biked across Eastern Europe together, but that's another story!

 

That is just one example. But, I think boys in particular need projects/goals like these to feel good about themselves, and when done with their dad it is extra special (they are a team!) and a LOT is learned along the way.

 

I think it's hard to get someone to change their ways and strive to be a better person when they are unhappy or unmotivated.

 

And btw, if your son is really interested in the Paleo diet, could he research it himself and cook his own food? Our son is older now -- 23 -- but he was always into healthy eating and alternative diets, and that was fine with us as long as he did his own cooking. He is now on the Paleo diet. :)

[JennifersLost]

The best part of all these posts is just the mutual commiseration! Thanks, ladies - it's good to know we're not the only ones dealing with this.

 

He actually has a lot of chores (we own rentals so he does a fair bit of work there) and dh is making more of an effort to make him the "go-to" guy for helping out. For a long time he got away with not being asked to help because he did such a good job at doing a lousy job....

 

One of the graduation requirements is to have 30 hours work experience. He was just skipping that one since he didn't have ajob. I've told him he has to march down to the volunteer bureau this week and get a volunteer job if he can't find a paying one. I've wanted him to do this for awhile.

 

He is a black belt in karate and actually teaches for free at every class and has done so for several years. One thing that bugs me is how incredibly hard he'll work for other adults and how nice he is to the ones he likes. If he doesn't like an adult he barely acknowledges that person's existence. His karate teacher thinks the sun rises and sets on him and from previous comments she's made thinks we're really mean parents. That's partly why I pulled him out of there for a month. Her influence was NOT helping.

 

I've got to go but I'll keep checking back. He's actually in 11th grade, so we have a full year to go - the grad transitions is done over two years.

 

I like the suggestion to concentrate on the "good" ones because you're right - sometimes all five of the rest of us brace ourselves at dinner time waiting for him to start something. This year we've started watching tv more often than not at dinner - something we never did before much - because if he's watching tv, he's not moping! (Isn't that awful?!? - but like dh says, we need something that constitutes a "happy memory" that involves the whole family.)

 

Thank you for letting me vent. On the plus side this kid has an amazing memory, plays the piano beautifully after teaching himself (I love to hear him play), is very kind to his little sister and other little kids, and I'm pretty sure has a loving heart. When he was little, he wanted everything to be fair and shared and work out for everyone and it's almost like the world was to painful, so he retreated into this other whole persona.

 

We will keep trying!!!!

[Trish]

I feel a little fuzzy on his current situation. Not the day-to-day, you've described that well. The aspirations stuff. There was some discussion of college, but he has to pay for half of it.

 

Well it is past mid-April. Are/were his grades good enough to get into college? His college boards scores? Has he applied anywhere? Has he been accepted anywhere? To me these are major unanswered questions. If the answer is no, he hasn't applied, then I would think the discussion of his future after graduation would have happened MONTHS ago. Like, if you're not planning to apply to college, what job or job training might be of interest? That sort of thing. At the moment it feels like everyone's pretending this senior year is going to last forever.

 

And if he doesn't see a picture of his life after graduation, I can see why he'd be highly unmotivated. I'd be inclined to paint that picture for him (at least the options), and try to help him move in a direction of some sort.

 

Good luck! It's certainly a thankless task to try to BE someone else's motivation.

[Danestress]

if he's helping your DH out with the rental properties and becoming the "go to guy" on that, I would call that a "job" in the way that teens who are full time students and have activities have part time jobs. Plus, he was teaching for free at the karate studio for several years.

 

Is there anyway you would let him go back to the studio, take lessons, and teach in exchange for some free lessons and travel expense help? If the teacher liked him and he was doing a good job of it and he really liked it, it sounds like there were some real benefits for him there. I understand you felt criticized by the teacher, and I don't know how bad that was, but I am throwing it out there just to ask. The more we can put teens in environment where they have to work hard, they have success, and they feel good about what they are doing, the better. I would be very reluctant to take that away from him (but understand that life as a parent is complicated and that might have been necessary).

 

Also, I am all for family helping out and kids working along side their parents, but if your DS is helping your DH he needs to either be getting paid for it as a job (like an on the pay roll job) or he needs to be getting community service hours for it or something. It doesn't seem right for the school to require 30 hours of "work" and then not count this. It really seems unfair to him - like the work he does doesn't count. I would want to make it worth his while, either by paying him, getting him credit, or recognizing that he is making a contribution and he doesn't need to feel bad about not having another job when he's a student and has this.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Danestress

[JennifersLost]

Just to be clear, ds is in 11th grade.

 

Grad transitions takes 2 years here about one short assignment per month. Our situation is that we expect the kids to do their first two years at the CC here in town if at all possible (unless they get scholarships), and then transfer to a four-year school here in BC. All the classes at the CC are guaranteed to transfer to the four year schools here; it's a great deal. It might not be as sexy as going across the country, but it's what we can afford.

 

Ds is STILL at karate and still teaching. He didn't know that counted as a "job" since he thought if it wasn't paid, it couldn't. Of course he never bothered to ask. He just thought he'd skip the assignment since it didn't apply to him.

 

Dh has been walking him through the process of calculating a budget for supporting himself - and how to build a menu, and all of those kinds of things. Today he declared he wasn't going to college at all - he was going to work a minimum wage retail job forever.

 

Dh's take is - this kid probably needs to move out after graduation, live in an apartment and work a few low end jobs until he's motivated by his own desire to pursue more education. We can both look at him and see he'll be happier in an intellectual pursuit, but right now he's interpreting everything in life as a punishment whereas I believe education is a privilege.

 

We've told our kids they have until they're 25 to approach us for help in attending higher education. After that I'm spending the money on vacations. :) So, he has time to fool around for awhile and get his head on straight.

 

However, he will graduate if it kills me and he will get his drivers' license. I believe both those things are necessary. Of course, if he doesn't, he doesn't and he'll figure it out later.

 

Sooner or later he'll probably get bored of pouting and decide he'd like to catch up with his peers.