Trilliums Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Wow. This thread is pretty revealing to me. As a black parent of biological children I have never once thought to tell my sons not to walk with their hands in their pockets, nor run in public for fear someone will think they were doing something criminal. And if you, as people who have made the conscience decision to parent and love on these children, feel the need to train your children in such a fashion . . . it just says to me that we are much further behind than I realized. It's sad to think that black, male teens are still thought of as scary. Your children are not scary. Please, you must not send that message to them. I fear that if you warn them that if they behave in a certain manor they may get mistaken for a criminal, then they will BELIEVE that simply by being, they are in some way contributing to the racism they may experience. My family does not live this way. And if white people can eat fried chicken and watermelon in public then why can't black children? Ugh I agree--many of the posts have been a bit disconcerting to me. I was wondering if they were over hyped. It just didn't seem right to me somehow but we are white and I figured it was something I just did not know about. But then, recently DH traveled to an out of town conference with another professor who happens to be black. When they met at the airport, the other prof was wearing a tie and suit jacket. DH was in jeans and a polo. DH commented on the nice attire and the black prof basically said as a black man, he has to dress up in order to be recognized as a professional and treated better. DH and I were both pretty surprised by this, but I thought how this man has a young son and he must be projecting that same message to his son. Maybe we really just haven't come as far as I would like to think we have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 White People, you will never look suspicious. by Michael Skolnik http://globalgrind.com/news/michael-skolnik-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-race-sanford-florida-photos-pictures I will never look suspicious to you. Even if I have a black hoodie, a pair of jeans and white sneakers on...in fact, that is what I wore yesterday...I still will never look suspicious. No matter how much the hoodie covers my face or how baggie my jeans are, I will never look out of place to you. I will never watch a taxi cab pass me by to pick someone else up. I will never witness someone clutch their purse tightly against their body as they walk by me. I won't have to worry about a police car following me for two miles, so they can "run my plates." I will never have to pay before I eat. And I certainly will never get "stopped and frisked." I will never look suspicious to you, because of one thing and one thing only. The color of my skin. I am white. Read more: http://globalgrind.com/node/828497#ixzz1pmWY5DLO This guy hasn't been out of his own backyard if he thinks he isn't suspicious from the description above. I get what he is trying to say, but he is missing an entire segment of the white population that would get passed up by the taxi driver or stopped by the cop just because of what they have on/ how they are behaving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 If someone can point me in the direction of a community where black male teens are not thought of as scary, I'd love to know. DH and I are still looking for a retirement spot. If you don't mind the cold you can come up here to northeast Maine. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacongirl Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 But if the ignorant person has a gun, or a baseball bat, or a badge, or is a loan officer, or a social worker, or a teacher, it becomes the child's problem. This, exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Agree w/ Chucki. Can you tell I live in a diverse neighborhood? The teen groups are usually mixed skin colors anyway, and they all get stopped if they are loud or inappropriate. Whether to go to a defensive posture or not depends on the particular dress. Teens that go to diverse high schools know how to read the clothing code as well as the hand signals. They are wise to go on the defensive and clear out of the area if they don't want to be involved. Yet that is different than the 40something yuppie that judges a teen because they are wearing punky clothes and a mohawk, or is black and wearing a hoodie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie Smith Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Maybe we really just haven't come as far as I would like to think we have. I think we have, at least in some ways in some places. I know two men who I would classify as black that I know well enough to ask them about this subject. One said, "I wouldn't know what it's like to be black, My parents are Jamaican - not black." To me and my husband he appeared to be black to us. :001_huh: The other person was a close friend on my husband, and he lived with us for a few years. He said he identified or was treated different growing up since his mom was European. He then said he never noticed any different treatment due to skin color. Both people live in Ontario Canada. The second one grew up in Quebec. Note: In Quebec and Ontario I have heard almost everyone complain or comment about the racism (For lack of a better term) for English vs. French. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*lifeoftheparty* Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacongirl Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 :iagree: Thank You! I was waiting for SOMEONE to say this!! I didn't feel qualified since I only have to deal with my niece and nephew who are mixed, but my niece stays with me all summer and we just don't think about race as much these posters do. If I correct her grammar, it's b/c she needs to speak correctly, not b/c I'm worried about other people judging her. If I won't let her listen to rap music it's b/c the content is vulgar, not b/c I don't want others to know she isn't a gangsta', LOL! I have never, ever, told her to behave a certain way b/c she's black and we don't want people to think she's a criminal! I mean, I'm laughing just typing that.... to think someone actually thinks that way. I have a son. He's white, as am I. I don't make him not wear camo, or ban NASCAR, just because I don't want people to think he's an ignorant racist redneck! I raise him right, with manners and he has no idea that racism even exists; and because he never behaves like a racist redneck, people don't have any reason to believe he's a racist redneck. My sister is as ghetto as they come, LOL, and she's white! The things that you guys are trying to keep your kids from doing seem more like ghetto culture things.... ghetto can be white, black, latino, whatever. And this is coming from someone who grew up in the South, mostly in bodunk small town redneck Georgia and dated black guys in high school. I've seen and experienced racism that would make your head spin.... but I would never go through the lengths you guys are going through. I hope it doesn't give those poor kids a complex.... What would give kids a complex is not understanding that they will be confronted with racism and not having the tools to deal with it when it inevitably will come up. And, as made clear in this case, the consequence of not knowing how to respond in this kind of situation can be deadly and heartbreaking. Again, for the OP and any other white parents of transracially adopted kids, I also really like the blog Heart, Mind and Seoul on this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilly Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 DD and DS's gear is usually monogrammed to show parental care/involvement. Their hair is always cut and well-styled, not overgrown. You'll never, EVER, see my son with an afro or braids or locks. I did let the little guy wear a mini mohawk for a while but DH was not impressed so the mohawk went away. My kids dress in typical yuppy attire. No hoodies, no baggie pants and no sunglasses indoors. I do everything I can to make them look as non-threatening as possible but there's nothing I can do about the size my son will eventually be. Wow this just seems so strange to me. I would never try to limit my child's need for self-expression in this way. I have an 11-year-old nephew who is black, and he practically lives in hoodies. Also he sometimes has an afro, and every summer he sports a mohawk. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrappyhappymama Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 What would give kids a complex is not understanding that they will be confronted with racism and not having the tools to deal with it when it inevitably will come up. And, as made clear in this case, the consequence of not knowing how to respond in this kind of situation can be deadly and heartbreaking. Again, for the OP and any other white parents of transracially adopted kids, I also really like the blog Heart, Mind and Seoul on this topic. Reading this entire thread with interest. So far, I can appreciate the merits on all sides. The statement above gave me pause though, and I was wondering if you or others could elaborate on it. What exactly did young Treyvon do *wrong*? Was he in some way unprepared or should he have responded differently than he did? I am truly curious what additional preparation he could have had or action he could have taken to prevent this tragic outcome? Or, was he simply an unfortunate young man who crossed paths with the shooter who's unfounded suspicions appear to be racially motivated? Would more ignorance of the harsh realities of life and more love at home have protected him? Would rejecting all semblance of black culture have protected him? Would just being himself and not living in fear have protecting him? Or was he just doomed by fate and circumstance? :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 What exactly did young Treyvon do *wrong*? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. And this is what is so impossibly difficult for me and for so many of my friends with kids. All our lives we've struck this horrible, uneasy bargain with this country. We go to great schools, graduate, work, buy homes, do everything and I mean everything, to normalize our kids and reduce the perceived threat they pose and then a case like this comes along and says to us all...F*YOU! It doesn't matter what you do. It doesn't matter how much you achieve. It doesn't matter what you drive or where you live or how you comport yourself. The lives of your children aren't worth jack. They're expendable. They can rot in the morgue while you frantically call their cell. They should (in the words of the police chief) 'do things differently' next time. Things like this shake me to the core because I know, just like Trayvon's mother, that there's not a **** thing I can do to protect my child from this. When people say they don't get it, I think, lucky you. Lucky you that you haven't had to think this deeply about any of it. What a privilege! I'm jealous. Green with envy. And bitter too. It's not right and it's not fair and it's not imaginary and it won't go away for me. And so what do I do as a parent? Do I give up all the rules I've ever known about how to get ahead and how to protect my son? Am I to assume the bargain I've struck all my life is null and void? No. I'm not just going to throw up my hands and say, OK Mouse...grow your fro, sag your pants and have at life. That's insane. I'm shaken, yes. Traumatized, yes. But I have to believe that while tattered and frayed, the bargain remains in effect and so my rules must remain in effect. This is what I have to tell myself to make it all OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacongirl Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Reading this entire thread with interest. So far, I can appreciate the merits on all sides. The statement above gave me pause though, and I was wondering if you or others could elaborate on it. What exactly did young Treyvon do *wrong*? Was he in some way unprepared or should he have responded differently than he did? I am truly curious what additional preparation he could have had or action he could have taken to prevent this tragic outcome? Or, was he simply an unfortunate young man who crossed paths with the shooter who's unfounded suspicions appear to be racially motivated? Would more ignorance of the harsh realities of life and more love at home have protected him? Would rejecting all semblance of black culture have protected him? Would just being himself and not living in fear have protecting him? Or was he just doomed by fate and circumstance? :confused: I want to be clear that I am not blaming the victim here and I don't advocate rejecting black culture (although I am sure many would say that not allowing your child to wear baggy pants isn't rejecting black culture.) But I think many responses here live in an ideal world which does not exist. I don't think it is appropriate to deny the experience of those such as the young man who wrote a recent NYT op-ed (and, fwiw, experiences of black and latino friends IRL) who are subjected to situations where not responding in a certain way to those in power could lead to more incidents of innocent boys being killed. http://www.npr.org/2012/03/21/149060167/florida-teens-killing-a-parents-greatest-fear http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/20/my-12-year-old-son-knows-he-could-be-trayvon/ Edited March 22, 2012 by deacongirl to add the cnn piece from another parent's perspective Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 The teen and the 40 yuppie are both looking to steer clear of trouble. Knowing the code is helpful. Here, punky clothes and mohawk = check for stench and demeanor to determine if need to avoid. Black & hoodie...cbeck demeanor, weather, and setting - 80 F, angry, in questionable neighborhood - get help (the library here has a security guard for this, as libraries are in fringe neighborhoods). Neither of these would make me run as automatically as wifebeater, oversize holey jean shorts low enough to show the boxers, construction boots, poor hygiene, and the drug using gleam in the eye with obvious expressions of anger while walking down the street. gangsorus dot com has the dress codes listed, if the officers in your area don't do an informational presentation for parents of middle schoolers. It is not a good idea to let your child dress in certain combinations of attire in certain neighborhoods - he can be mistaken by rivals of those who normally wear the clothing and lose his life. . Aside from that, costuming is interesting. Sales people study the dress and mannerisms to tell who is worth spending time on. There is being street smart and there is being judgmental. The situations above I would describe as being street smart, which I believe is necessary in understanding ones neighborhood. However, the above scenario is extremely unlikely in our area. Street smart in our area means knowing that you can ride your John Deere to the convenience store. Dh used to work in sales and construction. We've done the studies first hand of what it feels like to be overlooked when wearing painter's whites, but get treated like gold when you walk into the same store wearing a suit. I've seen people in our area snap to judgement & fear about person because they are black or Muslim or Hispanic or different and A) they moved into "your" neighborhood, or B) they were eating in "your" restaurant. That's the subtle racism I find appalling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterflymommy Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Don't make the mistake thinking that the greatest threat of crimes against young black men comes from whites. In terms of statistics, by far the greatest threat to young black men are other young black men. When my husband was beat up and robbed it was by black teens and I'm sure they picked him because he's not white (because the police & media don't take crimes against blacks and hispanics as seriously). In terms of confrontations with police or other security services the goal should ALWAYS be to come out alive (this goes for all races but especially black and hispanic males). So you do what you need to do and say what you need to say just to get out of the confrontation alive. If they ask you to jump you jump. Use the term "sir." Be polite and calm as all get go. You can deal with filing complaints or having misunderstandings rectified later. This goes for vehicle stops or any other kind of confrontation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nono Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Nothing. Absolutely nothing. And this is what is so impossibly difficult for me and for so many of my friends with kids. All our lives we've struck this horrible, uneasy bargain with this country. We go to great schools, graduate, work, buy homes, do everything and I mean everything, to normalize our kids and reduce the perceived threat they pose and then a case like this comes along and says to us all...F*YOU! It doesn't matter what you do. It doesn't matter how much you achieve. It doesn't matter what you drive or where you live or how you comport yourself. The lives of your children aren't worth jack. They're expendable. They can rot in the morgue while you frantically call their cell. They should (in the words of the police chief) 'do things differently' next time. Things like this shake me to the core because I know, just like Trayvon's mother, that there's not a **** thing I can do to protect my child from this. When people say they don't get it, I think, lucky you. Lucky you that you haven't had to think this deeply about any of it. What a privilege! I'm jealous. Green with envy. And bitter too. It's not right and it's not fair and it's not imaginary and it won't go away for me. And so what do I do as a parent? Do I give up all the rules I've ever known about how to get ahead and how to protect my son? Am I to assume the bargain I've struck all my life is null and void? No. I'm not just going to throw up my hands and say, OK Mouse...grow your fro, sag your pants and have at life. That's insane. I'm shaken, yes. Traumatized, yes. But I have to believe that while tattered and frayed, the bargain remains in effect and so my rules must remain in effect. This is what I have to tell myself to make it all OK. If there's ever a post that deserves a hug, this is one. :grouphug: Thank you for writing it all out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oak Knoll Mom Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 If someone is scared of them that is their problem not my children's. :confused: It is your children's problem if someone pulls out his gun and shoots them because he is scared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 :confused: It is your children's problem if someone pulls out his gun and shoots them because he is scared. Or even just yells at them. Or the police stops them. Just like you wouldn't want your daughter whistled at, followed, or groped as she walks down the street, you wouldn't want your son to be perceived as a threat. It is detrimental to one's health. Sarah L. Szanton, Joseph M. Rifkind, Joy G. Mohanty, Edgar R. Miller, Roland J. Thorpe, Eneka Nagababu, Elissa S. Epel, Alan B. Zonderman, Michele K. Evans. Racial Discrimination Is Associated with a Measure of Red Blood Cell Oxidative Stress: A Potential Pathway for Racial Health Disparities. International Journal of Behavioral Medicine, 2011; DOI: 10.1007/s12529-011-9188-z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classical Katharine Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Sneezyone, Thank you for sharing. I can understand why you feel as if no place is safe and the bargain may not hold. Racism stinks and it isn't gone. But it isn't in every heart, either . . . and I hope that helps. You're doing what you do because of some bigots. There are many who are not and I pray that you and your children will find them or find that you already know some of them. I sure wouldn't retire to Florida . . . if the laws are as lax there as people have said in this thread, that's terribly dangerous. But may I tell you about a church I know? In New Jersey. Lots of white, lots of all kinds of other shades, from many backgrounds and nations. Black men have been deacons and pastors. Mixed race marriages and mixed race adoptions are common. We all came from Adam, every race, and when we believe God on that, and on the rest of his message . . . hearts change and the races are united again. It's amazing. I'm not saying there's only one place on earth like that. I'm just saying what I've seen and it's beautiful. It's real. It does exist. And everyone's invited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 But I do know that AA men are treated differently from whites-DWB-driving while black-is the term I've heard form a friend who was absolutely stunned by the number of traffic stops for vague reasons that he dh has, which she, as a white woman, has never experienced. OTOH, I have no clue about how one would speak to a boy, a child (which is what Trayvon was-a child) about how to live with this. I really think the best way to proceed is to work to end racism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 In perfectly sane moments, in logical moments, I know that most people are good and stories like this are outrageous exceptions but logic doesn't always drive the bus. IYKWIM. There are people arguing than Trayvon should have stopped and explained himself to the stranger following him who outweighed him by 100 lbs. Really? So it's open season for any perv, kidnapper, whomever to accost 'suspicious' kids and they should just take it? Be defferential? That's horrifying. There are 21 states with laws like this on the books so it does begin to feel a little like no place is safe. I assume most parents here warn of bad influences and give their kids "street smart" tips. You can give your kids an early curfew and help them avoid being out/about when bad things are most likely to occur (and with people to whom bad things are more likely to occur) but you can't protect against this. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hana Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Hopefully you will all teach your children that the color of your skin doesn't matter. The clothes you wear don't matter, nor does your hair. What matters is how you behave and treat others. I teach them this. But the community around us (both locally and nationally) teaches them that these things do matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I have an acquaintance (black) who spent the night before his MCATs (medical school admissions exam) in jail. He made the mistake of going out for a caffeine refill after dark. It doesn't hurt that he's 6'5". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrappyhappymama Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I want to be clear that I am not blaming the victim here and I don't advocate rejecting black culture (although I am sure many would say that not allowing your child to wear baggy pants isn't rejecting black culture.) I totally don't think you are blaming the victim. But when we say that being better prepared can help avoid tragic outcomes, I'm wondering which of the "preparations" advocated in this thread will actually do that. Or if he was simply a victim of random violence. But it's not so random when racial insults are being hurled. Trayvon could not change his skin color, and no one accepts that he should have had to change his location, so it seems to me that the only factor worth changing in this scenario is the heart of the shooter. As a mother of bi-racial and bi-cultural children, these considerations resound in my heart. My husband is hispanic and has been pulled over as a young man in a nice car and hassled and harassed. As a young man, he was unjustly accused of a crime, simply because he "fit the description" of the suspect, and was in the same general area. All of his academic achievement and success has been accomplished as an adult and despite the shortcomings of his childhood education, and he recalls bitterly the low expectations and opportunities afforded him as a child because he was "just a dumb mexican" (his words). Since several of our children are relatively light skinned, he sometimes faces suspicious scrutiny when he is out with our children without me. As a result, there are several factors in raising our children that my husband has always been adamant about. He absolutely refused for our children to learn Spanish from infancy, believing they would be better served to speak English fluently first and then to learn Spanish secondarily. None of my arguments about raising bilingual children and the ease of learning two languages from the start were able to sway his conviction that his children will be better off speaking an unaccented English (of course, they are also Texan, so...). He is also very interested in our children being exposed to the richness of many various cultures, not only the hispanic ones, so we make a point of eating many types of foods, listening to many types of music, visiting festivals of all ethnic flavors, and befriending folks from as many cultures as we have opportunity. A lot of this makes me sad, because I feel like we are compelled to dilute the effects of the rich cultural heritage of my husband's family. I find it frustrating that we have to teach our kids Spanish the hard way, simply so ignorant people in the future won't make unfounded judgements on the intelligence and potential of our children. On the other hand, I also find it sad when various cultures impose a standard of the only right way to raise a child of a particular race. Or to live as a member of that race. Because my husband is well educated and professional and attempts to speak English properly and doesn't teach his children Spanish first, he has been accused by some of selling out and turning his back on "his people" and trying to act white. Of course many black folks experience this same kind of reaction when they try to live outside of some accepted norms of black culture. What a shame! Here again is a disparity between these cultures and various white ones. It is generally acceptable to be a Nascar loving redneck white, or a waspish professional, or a crunchy hippie or what have you. Of course, a century ago my ancestors were "dirty" Irish and Italian immigrants, and most of those prejudices have melted away over time, so perhaps it's not too optimistic to hope for the same for our hispanic and black friends. Although, the women who hand rolled their pasta and could make a mean ziti have mostly died off and the only true vestige of our Irish heritage we have remaining is our red hair. So is the tradeoff truly worth it? My husband's grandmother recently passed, and took with her the last of his immediate family to know how to make homemade tamales well (without my having spent the time necessary to learn from her, to my shame). I do think it is silly to refuse to acknowledge current cultural norms among various races. There is nothing wrong with recognizing commonalities among many people with shared racial backgrounds, it is the value and moral judgements that often accompany these observations that are wrong. Some of these "norms" are relatively harmless- it really doesn't matter whether one happily enjoys fried chicken or menudo, or chooses to abstain to avoid falling into stereotypical patterns. But when we fail to acknowledge larger social issues like the disparity of black and hispanic young men committing crimes and disproportionate rates of incarceration, and try to moderate our thinking in politically correct ways by telling ourselves we are just as likely to be a victim of a crime from a white person, then we also fail to address the underlying issues that contribute to these disparities. I don't think this types of backlash against stereotypes is ultimately helpful, but rather prolongs the problems in favor of looking virtuous. The very picture of a Whitewashed Tomb. In my ideal world, black families and hispanic families would come in all variations of social classes and cultural customs, and would be considered perfectly black and brown enough just as they are. And we would help our children to mold their instincts along the lines of judging people's actions rather than their appearances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) I see what you're saying, really, I do. My stepmom and step-siblings are Mexican and have not made the choice to give up language or culture the way that my maternal grandparents and some of my good friends from college have. I see both sides and respect both choices. It is statistically more likely that crime is committed by someone who looks as you look, true. On the other hand, it is also true that most violent crime, especially murder, is concentrated in some geographic areas and among some socioeconomic groups. To the extent that you can limit your exposure to those areas and economic conditions, you limit your exposure to those types of crimes. When it comes to race/ethnicity based profiling, you can't limit your risks. You can't move your way out of it. ETA: I also think you can't separate the disproportionate displinary decisions made by schools, disproportionate charging decisions made by DAs and disproportionate sentencing decisions made by judges and juries from the argument you're making about criminality. I don't know what the solution is. Mostly I think I'm still reeling but I hear what you're saying. Edited March 22, 2012 by Sneezyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hana Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I am careful about what my two aa daughters look like in public, because if I am not careful with their hair we will get stopped by the hair police. BTDT! some :tongue_smilie: and some :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hana Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 The lives of your children aren't worth jack. They're expendable. They can rot in the morgue while you frantically call their cell. They should (in the words of the police chief) 'do things differently' next time. Things like this shake me to the core because I know, just like Trayvon's mother, that there's not a **** thing I can do to protect my child from this. When people say they don't get it, I think, lucky you. Lucky you that you haven't had to think this deeply about any of it. What a privilege! I'm jealous. Green with envy. And bitter too. It's not right and it's not fair and it's not imaginary and it won't go away for me. The first part of this is in my family's face every.single.day. We are moving out of this community soon, because that's what we need to do for OUR children, but I'm so sad to think about all the children who remain here. The second part of this is so very well said. To not HAVE to get this, just to make sure that your children stay alive (physically) and vibrant (emotionally, etc.) is privilege. Not a chosen privilege, but one, nevertheless. One I wish all parents and their children could have. I could say so much more, but I just can't make myself that vulnerable here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scuff Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 One thing I noticed reading the other thread, while the man clearly didn't like the boy because he was black, a similar situation could happen to anyone. That boy must've been scared being followed like that. My mom always said that if we were being followed, we should go to the police or someplace safe. not that he could have done that on foot, but he could have called. Perhaps then the operator could have helped diffuse the situation. Told the guy that he was scaring the poor kid. Perhaps not, since he didn't back off when told. Anyway, racial issues aside, it's good for all of us to teach our kids how to handle situations that might come up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 The first part of this is in my family's face every.single.day. We are moving out of this community soon, because that's what we need to do for OUR children, but I'm so sad to think about all the children who remain here. The second part of this is so very well said. To not HAVE to get this, just to make sure that your children stay alive (physically) and vibrant (emotionally, etc.) is privilege. Not a chosen privilege, but one, nevertheless. One I wish all parents and their children could have. I could say so much more, but I just can't make myself that vulnerable here. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 One thing I noticed reading the other thread, while the man clearly didn't like the boy because he was black, a similar situation could happen to anyone. That boy must've been scared being followed like that. My mom always said that if we were being followed, we should go to the police or someplace safe. not that he could have done that on foot, but he could have called. Perhaps then the operator could have helped diffuse the situation. Told the guy that he was scaring the poor kid. Perhaps not, since he didn't back off when told. Anyway, racial issues aside, it's good for all of us to teach our kids how to handle situations that might come up. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzy Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Wow. This thread is pretty revealing to me. As a black parent of biological children I have never once thought to tell my sons not to walk with their hands in their pockets, nor run in public for fear someone will think they were doing something criminal. And if you, as people who have made the conscience decision to parent and love on these children, feel the need to train your children in such a fashion . . . it just says to me that we are much further behind than I realized. It's sad to think that black, male teens are still thought of as scary. Your children are not scary. Please, you must not send that message to them. I fear that if you warn them that if they behave in a certain manor they may get mistaken for a criminal, then they will BELIEVE that simply by being, they are in some way contributing to the racism they may experience. My family does not live this way. And if white people can eat fried chicken and watermelon in public then why can't black children? Ugh :iagree: As a black mom of 1 daughter and 3 (soon to be 4) sons, I am so glad to see you post this. I am not going to diminish my sons in their own eyes on the off chance they encounter a homicidal racist. My husband and I are law-abiding, U.S. citizens. We go where we want to go, wear what we want to wear, and do what we want to do within the confines of the law. We will teach our children to do the same. We will NOT teach them to "stay in their place." Trayvon did nothing wrong. Edited March 22, 2012 by Jazzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacongirl Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 :iagree: As a black mom of 1 daughter and 3 (soon to be 4) sons, I am so glad to see you post this. I am not going to diminish my sons in their own eyes on the off chance they encounter a homicidal racist. My husband and I are law-abiding, U.S. citizens. We go where we want to go, wear what we want to wear, and do what we want to do within the confines of the law. We will teach our children to do the same. We will NOT teach them to "stay in their place." Trayvon did nothing wrong. I don't believe anyone is implying that he did anything wrong. Sadly, there are places where law-abiding U.S. citizens have suffered greatly due to stereotyping based on race. Even if they don't encounter a homicidal racist, there are other challenges faced by people of color, esp. young men, and if you or those you love have not encountered these issues I am sincerely happy for you. I don't think that any parent is suggesting teaching their child to "stay in their place." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfgivas Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 stilll thinking about all of this..... read the whole thread.... and in the kitchen it just dawned on me that most of us have a variation on this experience that is not nearly as dreadful nor as common... but here goes.... most of the folks on this board are women... many of us have been or are employed. we know we are competent. we know we are trained. we know we are equals. and we know that there are some men (and some women) who won't think so. we watch what we wear, not because we shouldn't be able to wear what we want, but because we are managing our image to make it difficult for others to misinterpret us due to their own prejudice. we watch what we drink, not because we shouldn't be able to drink what we want, but because we are managing our behavior to make it difficult for others to misinterpret us due to their own prejudice. we strive to be as articulate, competent, punctual, even-tempered and reliable as possible.... and most of us teach our girl children the same things, not because they aren't fabulous human beings, but because they need to be able to keep themselves as safe as possible from some other people's prejudice.... all four of my daughters have had the "don't drink anything you haven't seen poured" speech, and the "if you have a bad feeling, don't get in the elevator" speech, and the "don't wear jewelry you aren't prepared to lose" speech, and the "park under a streetlight" speech, etc, etc, etc.... (they've also had the "you can do anything you want to do" speech, and the "women are strong" speech, and and and....) it is many times worse in the USA for african americans than it is for women. i think a lot of this thread is parents trying to do the best they can to help their kids deal with a less-than-perfect world..... here is a link to a great ted talk that talks about one piece of the puzzle..... but i will carry the "one in nine planes" analogy with me in my heart forever. we really do need to do something to change this. and in the meantime, we need to give our dc the tools to help them be aware of the world around them..... so, so glad that this is a place where we can talk about the tough things. ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzy Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) I don't believe anyone is implying that he did anything wrong. Sadly, there are places where law-abiding U.S. citizens have suffered greatly due to stereotyping based on race. Even if they don't encounter a homicidal racist, there are other challenges faced by people of color, esp. young men, and if you or those you love have not encountered these issues I am sincerely happy for you. I don't think that any parent is suggesting teaching their child to "stay in their place." I definitely don't need an education as to the challenges faced by people of color, lol. My husband and I have both experienced racism, as has just about every black person we know. I assume my children will eventually encounter racism, as well, even while exercising their rights within the confines of the law. I still won't teach them to behave as if they are "less than." Edited March 22, 2012 by Jazzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfgivas Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I definitely don't need an education as to the challenges faced by people of color, lol. My husband and I have both experienced racism, as has just about every black person we know. I assume my children will eventually encounter racism, as well, even while exercising their rights within the confines of the law. I still won't teach them to behave as if they are "less than." is there a difference between teaching them they are "less than" and teaching them that "some folks will see you as less than. you aren't, but you need to know that some folks have issues, and you need be able to deal with them"? i think there is, but i also think its a pretty hard line to walk, where teaching one could feel like the other pretty quickly..... :grouphug: ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzy Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 is there a difference between teaching them they are "less than" and teaching them that "some folks will see you as less than. you aren't, but you need to know that some folks have issues, and you need be able to deal with them"? To me the difference is teaching your child how to dress/behave based on what you as a parent feel is right and good vs. teaching your child how to dress/behave based on what you feel is or isn't acceptable to white people. My husband has encountered racism while wearing jeans (not baggy ones ;) ) and while wearing suits. He's encountered racism while driving, while in grad school, and even while at work in a professional environment (and he doesn't even have locks or an afro). I sympathize with the OP in wanting to protect her children, but racism is simply a fact of life if you're a minority. It is based on skin color - not on whether or not you speak respectfully or wear hoodies. Sadly, I doubt there was much Trayvon could have done to protect himself. The problem was in the mind of his killer. That's part of what makes this story so heartbreaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hana Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Sadly, I doubt there was much Trayvon could have done to protect himself. The problem was in the mind of his killer. That's part of what makes this story so heartbreaking. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) To me the difference is teaching your child how to dress/behave based on what you as a parent feel is right and good vs. teaching your child how to dress/behave based on what you feel is or isn't acceptable to white people. You say tomato, I say tomahto. Does it really matter if the outcome is the same (e.g. limiting clothing/grooming choices)? I'm not sure that anyone would wear suits and neckties if there weren't some social benefit or convention associated with it. I think the analogy elfgivas used was on point in the sense that we are free to do whatever we want, no one disputes that, but our choices are both voluntarily and involuntarily limited by social convention and external perceptions. None of us comes up with these preferences for what's right and good on our own, sans all forms of social pressure and coercion. Being cognizant of how you're perceived and the implications of those perceptions is part and parcel of being a functioning member of society. Edited March 23, 2012 by Sneezyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 One thing I noticed reading the other thread, while the man clearly didn't like the boy because he was black, a similar situation could happen to anyone. That boy must've been scared being followed like that. My mom always said that if we were being followed, we should go to the police or someplace safe. not that he could have done that on foot, but he could have called. Perhaps then the operator could have helped diffuse the situation. Told the guy that he was scaring the poor kid. Perhaps not, since he didn't back off when told. Anyway, racial issues aside, it's good for all of us to teach our kids how to handle situations that might come up. But different groups in American society have vastly differing experiences and perceptions about whether the police are "someplace safe." I think most people who are white and middle class expect that if we go to the police with a problem, and especially if our kids go to the police with a problem, the police will listen to us and try to help. I don't think that black teenage boys have the same perception, for good reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I avoided reading this thread as long as I could. I'm the white mom of a bunch of white kids. Dh and I do talk about possibly fostering or adopting from foster care when our current kids are older. There's no telling what races might be involved if we do. Yes, the whole concept of trying to "protect a child from their color" is sick, but it's definitely worth contemplating. I teach all of my children to be cautious of predator-type traits and avoid situations that put them alone with another adult while knowing that all adults aren't predators. For my daughters, there is and will be a whole other learning curve, simply because they are female. And it will get more intense as they age, instead of less, like it will be for my sons. It isn't fair, and it isn't their fault, but I can't pretend it isn't true. They need to know how to minimize their risk. Same for darker skinned boys and men (of any race). I live in an area that has had a huge influx of "city folks" of all races. Crime has most definitely gone up. While it can be attributed to multiple races, blacks, hispanics, etc. are more easily identifyable as the "outsiders" natives disapprove of so much. I would absolutely be more worried for a teen boy with dark skin than one with white skin. I'm very close with an older black man (late 60s/early 70s). His grown daughters are highly educated, highly successful women. Their intellect intimidates me. He shares stories about the racism they've experienced as AAs, as women, and as smart, black women. It's like there is no winning. :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfgivas Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 NPR just finished a really good segment on this on the show "to the point", in the 12-1 time slot Pacific time. a lot of the things we've been wrestling with were talked about; i am so glad i was in the car at the time!!! http://www.npr.org/rss/podcast/podcast_detail.php?siteId=4819514 fwiw, ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommie_Jen Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 I don't really shave anything new to add to the conversation, but I am still here, reading, observing, and thinking. Thanks for the NPR link! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfgivas Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 one of my friends just posted a link to this one, too. http://justabaldman.blogspot.com/2012/03/2890-steps.html?m=1 so many people have been touched by this..... i just hope we remember to do something more than just think about it and be sad about it..... ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacongirl Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 To the OP, an example of some advice given to a teenage black son by his black father: http://news.salon.com/2012/03/26/is_my_son_the_next_trayvon/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Wow. This thread is pretty revealing to me. As a black parent of biological children I have never once thought to tell my sons not to walk with their hands in their pockets, nor run in public for fear someone will think they were doing something criminal. And if you, as people who have made the conscience decision to parent and love on these children, feel the need to train your children in such a fashion . . . it just says to me that we are much further behind than I realized. It's sad to think that black, male teens are still thought of as scary. Your children are not scary. Please, you must not send that message to them. I fear that if you warn them that if they behave in a certain manor they may get mistaken for a criminal, then they will BELIEVE that simply by being, they are in some way contributing to the racism they may experience. My family does not live this way. And if white people can eat fried chicken and watermelon in public then why can't black children? Ugh http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/20/my-12-year-old-son-knows-he-could-be-trayvon/ This is one of about 3 opinion pieces I've read from AA parents with the same theme of specifically training their sons not to look suspicious. I can't find the other ones anymore. It's sad, but it's one way families choose to deal with the reality of profiling, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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