My kids hate each other.

[Random]

I have two boys, ages 10 and 8, who cannot stand each other. I strongly encourage them to tolerate each other and not pick fights by giving consequences when they are intentionally rude or mean to each other.

 

I've explained that they don't have to enjoy each other in order to get along. I've rewarded them for being nice, and I've given consequences for being mean and agitating the other one. I have tried making them share a bedroom. I have tried giving them separate bedrooms. Sometimes, they will have to sit together, holding hands repeatedly saying, "I love you." Sometimes, they will have to serve each other for a meal or do the other's chores. My husband makes them write sentences like, "I will never hit my brother," fifty times. Sometimes, I am so annoyed, I just send them to sit in separate corners of the house until I can calm down. And, sometimes, I lose my temper and yell at them to "JUST BE NICE!!!" :glare:

 

I've explained calmly that we are going to have to be polite and kind to all types of people, and that we don't have to actually like the people we treat well. We talked about having bosses or in-laws or bank tellers (or whomever) that were difficult to be around, but we control ourselves in situations like that. We did an exercise with a ball that the boys tossed back and forth, and I explained that was like their arguing. It only takes one of them to 'drop the ball' and the argument will be over. We've talked about how they don't have to take the 'bait' the other one throws out. They know they can come to me for help if one is being mean to the other. As long as it's not just tattling, I will help out. If they are just tattling, I will tell them to work it out on their own. Which almost never goes well....

 

The 10 year old is classic first-born. The 8 year-old is classic middle child, even though he's #2 of 4. None of the other relationships between the siblings are bad. They are like predator-prey all day, every day.

 

Can anyone help me? My goal is not necessarily for them to like each other, although I would love for that to happen. I just cannot stand the fighting and the way they just seem to literally delight in hurting the other one. What are some practical ways I can help bring some peace into our home?

 

And, although this is already long, I want to add in that siblings who love each other was one of the main attractions of home educating for me. It breaks my heart to hear the way my kids talk to each other. They say things that shock me.

 

Thanks for listening.

[jennsmile]

Do they share a room?

[Random]

Do they share a room?

 

Right now, they are sharing a room.

[Annie G]

I really don't have a ton of ideas to help, but we've been there and lived through it. Our two oldest were at each others' throat constantly unless we were right on them. When they were about the ages of your boys, we sat the down and told them they HAD to treat each other better. We discussed rules of civility and told them we just weren't going to tolerate any more meanness. They were old enough to be able to use some self control and old enough that they knew we meant business.

 

It wasn't always easy- they tested us all the time. But we stuck by our guns and were consistent with what we expected.

 

Today they are 26 and 28 and are very good friends. They both live in the same city 850 miles from us- and it's finally feeling like the effort we put in paid off.

 

We didn't make them do things like hold hands or say they loved each other. We couldn't force HOW they felt- nor did we want to. I think that might have backfired with our two spitfire girls!

[Guest submarines]

Do thet get to spend time apart?

 

My 9you DD and 6yo DS don't like being around each other. Their personalities clash. They unintentionally annoy each other (just by being who they are--a very serious, perfectionist type A vs a very relaxed, goofy, constant joke teller) which often starts an explosion.

 

But when I manage to have them apart (which isn't easy, obviously), I can see how much they actually love each other and care about each other. So not all is lost. :D

 

I would really make an effort for them not to need to share a room. Can you switch things around? Try to arrange as much time apart as you can to reset the cycle. :grouphug: It is difficult when our kids don't like each other.

[kamom]

I have been making my 10 and 11 year old do three deliberately kind things for each other every day. This has helped be kind.

 

Two of brothers, the very intense first born and the third born were awful to each other growing up. My parents didn't make them share a room. They are now friends, but still have personalities that clash. The older one being an over acheiver and the third one a people person. Seriously, when my parents wern't home I feared what they might do to each other they fought so much. Looking back I realize they weren't so much malicious as not wanting to be ruled by the other. It was awful!

[AK_Mom4]

I would look at the amount of attention they are getting for being nasty. It may just be how it is described, but it sounds like they are getting attention from parents for behaving this way (and kids will go for negative attention just as well as positive!)

 

And....I know that I did this with my older ones - when fights happened, both kids get punished. That led to kid #2 intentially picking fights with kid #3 because get punished was worth it to her in order to get her brother in trouble.

 

Time helps with this behavior as does separation. For us, that meant NOT letting them spend any time together for a while. None. Only one could play outside at a time. Only one could be involved in an activity away from home (we flipped coins and swapped off). One would have to stay with me all.the.time - then they would swap. Eventually, having to hang out with Mom all the time and not getting to play with the other kids became more painful that the thrill of sniping at the sibling.

 

The advantage of keeping one kid with me all the time meant that I could really see who was the instigator and discipline just that child. I know it takes two to argue, but almost always, one of them started it. We had to break that "starting it" habit, which took time.

[clementine]

I am wondering if either of your kids is able to remove themselves from a fight or if they just fight back and forth? If your boys are playing with legos, and one yells at/is mean to the other, can the attacked son get up, without saying a word, and walk away? I think that is a good skill to have.

 

I know that when mine argue, it's not because they don't want to be with/near the other....it's just an act done without thinking. When my one dd walks away, the other feels bad & eventually misses her company. The one who lashed out has to apologize sincerely & then they can resume their activity together. The victim of the yelling accepts the apology, but doesn't always return to what they were doing. Sometimes it takes time to 'want' to be with the other again.

 

If there has been lots of bickering, we may say that they are not allowed to play with the other for the day. They get lonely & eventually ask for permission to be together.

[Random]

It wasn't always easy- they tested us all the time. But we stuck by our guns and were consistent with what we expected.

 

Today they are 26 and 28 and are very good friends. They both live in the same city 850 miles from us- and it's finally feeling like the effort we put in paid off.

 

We didn't make them do things like hold hands or say they loved each other. We couldn't force HOW they felt- nor did we want to. I think that might have backfired with our two spitfire girls!

 

Thank you for this encouragement. I get what you are saying about forcing them to be nice, and having it backfire. The more I think about it, the more I think it's making my kids more angry, too.

 

Do thet get to spend time apart?

 

My 9you DD and 6yo DS don't like being around each other. Their personalities clash. They unintentionally annoy each other (just by being who they are--a very serious, perfectionist type A vs a very relaxed, goofy, constant joke teller) which often starts an explosion.

 

But when I manage to have them apart (which isn't easy, obviously), I can see how much they actually love each other and care about each other. So not all is lost. :D

 

I would really make an effort for them not to need to share a room. Can you switch things around? Try to arrange as much time apart as you can to reset the cycle. :grouphug: It is difficult when our kids don't like each other.

 

I think I do need to separate their bedrooms. They've been sharing for about four months, and it has not helped. It does seem to exacerbate the situation.

 

I have been making my 10 and 11 year old do three deliberately kind things for each other every day. This has helped be kind.

 

Two of brothers, the very intense first born and the third born were awful to each other growing up. My parents didn't make them share a room. They are now friends, but still have personalities that clash. The older one being an over acheiver and the third one a people person. Seriously, when my parents wern't home I feared what they might do to each other they fought so much. Looking back I realize they weren't so much malicious as not wanting to be ruled by the other. It was awful!

 

Very interesting. I see my oldest frequently bossing the second born around. It even annoys me, I know it annoys ds2. I like the idea of them doing three nice things for each other daily. I think they might even like that.

 

I would look at the amount of attention they are getting for being nasty. It may just be how it is described, but it sounds like they are getting attention from parents for behaving this way (and kids will go for negative attention just as well as positive!)

 

And....I know that I did this with my older ones - when fights happened, both kids get punished. That led to kid #2 intentially picking fights with kid #3 because get punished was worth it to her in order to get her brother in trouble.

 

Time helps with this behavior as does separation. For us, that meant NOT letting them spend any time together for a while. None. Only one could play outside at a time. Only one could be involved in an activity away from home (we flipped coins and swapped off). One would have to stay with me all.the.time - then they would swap. Eventually, having to hang out with Mom all the time and not getting to play with the other kids became more painful that the thrill of sniping at the sibling.

 

The advantage of keeping one kid with me all the time meant that I could really see who was the instigator and discipline just that child. I know it takes two to argue, but almost always, one of them started it. We had to break that "starting it" habit, which took time.

 

I will pay attention to how much positive attention we give the kids. I strongly suspect that it's not as much as the negative attention they get from us. :glare: I'm intrigued by the idea of separating their activities. We always try to combine them, since it cuts way down on our costs. I'm very curious if I have one primary offender, and just don't know it.

 

I am wondering if either of your kids is able to remove themselves from a fight or if they just fight back and forth? If your boys are playing with legos, and one yells at/is mean to the other, can the attacked son get up, without saying a word, and walk away? I think that is a good skill to have.

 

I know that when mine argue, it's not because they don't want to be with/near the other....it's just an act done without thinking. When my one dd walks away, the other feels bad & eventually misses her company. The one who lashed out has to apologize sincerely & then they can resume their activity together. The victim of the yelling accepts the apology, but doesn't always return to what they were doing. Sometimes it takes time to 'want' to be with the other again.

 

If there has been lots of bickering, we may say that they are not allowed to play with the other for the day. They get lonely & eventually ask for permission to be together.

 

I've explained to the boys how to remove themselves when they feel tempers rising. It's not something I think they've ever actually accomplished, though.

 

It seems like the common theme is give them more time apart, and even enforce it.

 

Thanks, everyone, for giving me so much to think about.

[fairfarmhand]

One thing that helps my family is that the fight picker gets just as much in trouble as the person who actually jumps into it. So someone making a snide pestering remark is in the same trouble as the sister who slugged her.

 

I have had my children stay right by my side for a few days so that I can actively squelch negative behaviors before they blow up into a fight. I can also being to learn about the subtle dynamics of the relationship. I have one kid who subtly makes verbal jabs at her sister. While on the surface, what she said might not be so bad, but you can tell that she is trying to push a button. Then she tattles if big sis hits,yells, or whatever in response. The second is very passive aggressive, while the first is quite open in dealing with conflict. I have to really keep my eyes and ears open to figure it out.

 

I would also say, "You don't have to like each other. You don't have to play together. But we are all stuck in this house together for the next ten years, so you have to figure out a way to make it work."

 

Then I would ask each boy what HE will do to change. No finger pointing allowed. This may take some time for you to help them decide on a solution.

[Donna]

I just wanted to add that it will get better as they get older. My boys fought a lot when they were younger. They have completely opposite personalities and they constantly aggravated each other. It didn't matter if I punished one, both, or completely ignored them...nothing changed until they got older.

 

Now they spend much more time together getting along though they still pick on one another now and then. I felt like maybe I hadn't done such a bad job parenting them a couple weeks ago when a boy in my younger ds's class was picking on him and threatening to fight and ds was happy to tell me his older brother was angry about it. I asked ds16 if he was being nice and sticking up for his brother and he said, "I'm the only one allowed to pick on him. No one else is." :001_unsure: Uh, okay.

[5LittleMonkeys]

This helped tremendously in how I deal with my dc in regards to their behavior toward one another and how I view their own relationships with each other. It is inexpensive and a fairly quick read. I strongly encourage you to try it out.

 

The most effective tool I use is validation. If one of my dc says they don't like or hate the other I don't make a huge issue out of it. I tell them that I respect their feelings. I go on to say that I'm sorry they feel the way they do and explain that regardless of their negative feelings they MUST treat each other with respect. Rude, disrespectful, mean behavior is punishable by loss of privileges...it has nothing to do with their feelings toward the other.

 

I do have the rule that they can hate a sibling all they want but that hearing "I hate you" is offensive to my ears and not acceptable in my home. IF they slip up and say it then they have to pay restitution to me, not to the person they said it to. My reason behind that is that making someone who doesn't like you do something nice for you is only going to make them more resentful and hate you even more. It's just adding fuel to the fire.

 

Part of the problem with young dc is that they are still trying to sort out strong irritation and annoyance from true hate. It's also likely that this constant angst against each other is a tool for manipulating you as well - especially if they are getting strong emotional responses from you.

 

Read the book.:grouphug:

[Mom-ninja.]

I have an 11 yr old and 8 yr old that fight a lot. Want to know what I do? I walk away. I stay out of it. I place the responsibility of getting along on their shoulders.

 

When they do fight, it doesn't last long anymore. They have realized they can't count on me to keep things from escalating and getting out of control. They can't count on me to stop the fight, and smooth things over. They have to learn to control their actions, and they have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

 

It's not easy for me. It's works. I breath deeply and turn away. I leave the room if needed.

 

The boys have full out slugged each other. The hitting has decreased now that I have removed myself from their fights.

 

Kids quickly learn appropriate behavior when there is no adult to referee.

 

Oh, let me add that I do not tolerate name calling. So if I hear it, I pounce immediately on the offending child. Punishment is then awarded.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Kleine Hexe

[Mom-ninja.]

Rude, disrespectful, mean behavior is punishable by loss of privileges...it has nothing to do with their feelings toward the other.

 

It's also likely that this constant angst against each other is a tool for manipulating you as well - especially if they are getting strong emotional responses from you.

 

Read the book.:grouphug:

 

Good book. I've read it as well. :iagree:

[jjins]

I also have struggled with sibling revelry and had a friend suggest something that blew my mind. She said that she thinks the reason mine fight so much is because there is NOT a clear peeking order. They are 9 b and 8 g. Only 17 months apart and she has ALWAYS been on his heels in most areas, a head in a few areas and typical age for at least two. So, we have never said, older sibling is the one who makes sure things are good and safe, younger sibling does have to give in.

 

We drew this out. We explained that if he allowed her to do anything that he should not then he was not being a good big brother and protecting her properly.

 

We explained to her that she has a older brother who wants to help her and protect her. That I never had an older brother and often wished I did and explained why.

 

We inspired them to respect their roles as different aged children. We gave privileges of age, allowances of young child learning.

 

This change has all taken place in the last five weeks, but the change is DRAMATIC!

 

It has even affected my son's relationship with me and others. He is calmer and more secure, he has been a VERY kind older brother. He still needs reminders about being overly helpful, but he is helpful in new sweet compassionate ways. For example, the kids went out in the cold one day and he grabbed tissues, put them in HIS pocket, because he knew his sister would get a runny nose in the cold and he wanted to have some for her. awwwww....

 

She on the other hand has not only been better about accepting his help, but she is better outside our home about accepting help from other children. What I could not see was that she was behaving as a mini adult and did not want to be told what to do ever.

 

Without my friends insight, I never would have considered laying down a peaking order, but it has REALLY REALLY helped.

 

Not sure if it will help you at all, but if it does... GREAT.

[elegantlion]

I think giving them their own rooms would be helpful. My sister and I fought (we're 2 1/2 years apart), we just genuinely don't get along, even as adults. Really the only thing we have in common is genetics. Being the younger I always felt like she lorded her seniority over me. When I had my own space to do with as I pleased it helped.

[SweetMissMagnolia]

no advice just a side story--I grew up with my older sister's family she had 3 boys and OMGOSH--sometimes they would fight and fuss with each other--drove me absolutely crazy--the first two are closer in age and then there's the baby--they are all grown now and all are as close as can be--the older two hardly ever go anywhere without the other...they even work together.....they are the best of friends....so hopefully your guys will get along better soon...

[bettyandbob]

My older 2 were awful to eachother at that age. The problem is mostly because of issues with oldest. I won't detail that here--it's just something I couldn't change, but we had arrange ourselves to accommodate him. At 14 and 17 they are starting to get along in normal circumstances. Their first forays into getting along to do with being awful to me together. :glare:

 

Do they have different activities? In any physical activity middle dc would have surpassed oldest in skill very quickly despite being 3 years younger. Because this was just one more thing oldest would resent, I never had these two kids in the same activity. Sounds like a pain, but the alternative would have been worse.

[Aggie]

One time I had all dc spend the entire day alone. They each had to eat alone, school alone, play alone. They could not even see each other. I wasn't the most pleasant person around, either, so it was solitary confinement, really.

 

It was a pain for me as I had to schedule schooling and meals around this, but it did pay off. You could let your other 2 play/eat/school together, though.

 

We also have a strict "If you can't get along with your siblings, you aren't going to any activities" policy. This is done on a week-to-week basis when needed. It works well when dc have activities that they love.:001_smile:

[CatholicMom]

I'm going to try to not sound too harsh here... but I think your goal *should* be for them to love each other. They are brothers!! I think it's a mistake to teach them that they don't have to love each other or like each other, but just tolerate each other. Tolerating is very difficult if you inwardly can't stand the person. Tolerating might work on the surface for co-workers and strangers, but it doesn't work within families... and the goal should be much higher. They are brothers! They should care for each other and love each other!

 

If one of them is "predator" I would bet that's a ton of the problem. If one is picking on the other all the time you need to crack down, big-time. Unfortunately, 10 is a little old for spanking to do the wonders it can do when kids are younger. That's why you should never let it get to that point (I'm saying this partly for others who might be reading, and partly to encourage you to not let it get anywhere near this point with younger siblings). So you will have to be serious about rebuking and disciplining (serious, harsh, no-messing-around, major consequences for being mean to Mr.Prey). You have to be motivated and determined and verbal that picking on, bossing, hurting, or insulting just will. not. happen. any. more. But if you're not 100% serious about it and believe in the cause, any effort will almost certainly fail.

 

When my boys (ages 8 & 7) have been mean to each other (or one mean to the other), I have sat down and given them a serious talk. No games, no activities. A serious, honest talk about how they are BROTHERS. Try to prick their little hearts. I said, there are going to be people you'll meet all over the place for the rest of your lives who don't care about you. They won't care about your feelings, they won't listen to you, they might not like you. But YOU TWO are brothers and you are family. You need to look after each other, protect each other, care about each other, love each other. Period. You only have 1, or 2 (or however many) brothers and you will be brothers for the rest of your LIVES. You will never get back the mean things you say. You can't undo the mean things you do, etc, etc. "Now give each other a hug. It makes me sad when you are mean to each other and it's not going to happen anymore. At all. If one of you is mean... etc, etc."...You get the idea.

 

I've been pretty gotten on them pretty quickly for this so they've never been REALLY mean to each other (it has gotten as far as a few hits and occasional name calling, e.g. stupid, or "brat"). And I can honestly say that they "get" my brothers speech and they don't love anyone or anything in the whole world as much as they love their brothers & sisters. They are best friends.

 

I think part of the reason this is happening is because you let it get too far and because you aren't setting your goals high enough. You don't want your boys to "tolerate" each other! They are going to remember their childhoods for the rest of their lives! They are living together during their most vulnerable and formative years! Any friendship they will have in the future starts now. Yes, sometimes kids with this kind of relationship can grow up and be buds, but that's despite the baggage in their relationship when they were kids.

 

Part of the reason I'm so vigilant with my kids is because 1) we are Christians and if you don't love your literal brother, how can you love your figurative brother? and also because 2) my brother was the "predator" when I we were kids, and I was the "prey." He called me stupid all the time (and I started to believe it after years). I'm quite sure my mom thought we would just grow out of it and it was just "normal" sibling rivalry... big brother picking on little sister. But I remember to this day all the things he said and did to me. Did he "love" me deep down? I'm sure he did, but he was way too cool and I was way too "annoying" for him to admit it or remotely act like it. It was hurtful, though I never said a lot about it when I was a kid. And you know what's sad is I can tell that now he's more mature and he doesn't pick on my now, of course :tongue_smilie:, and isn't mean to me, but we both sense that baggage and our relationship has never been decent even as adults. We never talk on the phone, I see him sometimes when I visit my parents, but our conversations are even weird. It's awkward to this day because we never were made to treat each other decently, let alone like brother and sister!, or like family. Point being, sometimes it never "goes away." They might wise up, but that baggage never just disappears. They may be kids, but they are forging a history together that will remain for the rest of their lives.

 

And they are kids so they won't mend their ways on their own. You have to put the "smack down" ;) and force the issue for a while until it becomes more natural for them to be nice to each other and, yes, LOVE each other. Frequent heart-to-hearts are going to be necessary, and serious discipline is of utmost importance (I didn't pay attention to whether dad is involved, but it's essential for dad to get on board here).

 

Novel alert! Yikes. Anyway, if you're a Christian I would also step-up the religious education and have them read more character building books and talk about how God not only wants us to be nice, but demands that we treat others as we want to be treated. Throw out all the "I hate my siblings... Oh, it's so embarrassing to be seen with my sister" books. You can imagine that I despise those themes in books for kids. (Who ever thought that was a good idea for kids to read? :confused:) Provide virtuous role models for them, read good books together with virtuous kid characters who love their siblings (Boxcar children!!), crack down on Mr.Predator especially, and hold your ground. I think they are young enough that you can turn this ship around with a lot of effort, and not have to settle for them "tolerating each other."

 

:grouphug:

[Tree House Academy]

Not a lot of advice to offer, but my two boys are 12 and 8 and they hate each other two. However, they are HALF brothers (I am mom...different dads) and the 8yo has dad at home whereas ds12 has no idea what it is like to live with his dad because we divorced when he was 3. I am sure that has some bearing on the feelings between them. Counseling has helped. So has maturity.

[Aelwydd]

I'm going to try to not sound too harsh here... but I think your goal *should* be for them to love each other. They are brothers!! I think it's a mistake to teach them that they don't have to love each other or like each other, but just tolerate each other. Tolerating is very difficult if you inwardly can't stand the person. Tolerating might work on the surface for co-workers and strangers, but it doesn't work within families... and the goal should be much higher. They are brothers! They should care for each other and love each other!

 

If one of them is "predator" I would bet that's a ton of the problem. If one is picking on the other all the time you need to crack down, big-time. Unfortunately, 10 is a little old for spanking to do the wonders it can do when kids are younger. That's why you should never let it get to that point (I'm saying this partly for others who might be reading, and partly to encourage you to not let it get anywhere near this point with younger siblings). So you will have to be serious about rebuking and disciplining (serious, harsh, no-messing-around, major consequences for being mean to Mr.Prey). You have to be motivated and determined and verbal that picking on, bossing, hurting, or insulting just will. not. happen. any. more. But if you're not 100% serious about it and believe in the cause, any effort will almost certainly fail.

 

When my boys (ages 8 & 7) have been mean to each other (or one mean to the other), I have sat down and given them a serious talk. No games, no activities. A serious, honest talk about how they are BROTHERS. Try to prick their little hearts. I said, there are going to be people you'll meet all over the place for the rest of your lives who don't care about you. They won't care about your feelings, they won't listen to you, they might not like you. But YOU TWO are brothers and you are family. You need to look after each other, protect each other, care about each other, love each other. Period. You only have 1, or 2 (or however many) brothers and you will be brothers for the rest of your LIVES. You will never get back the mean things you say. You can't undo the mean things you do, etc, etc. "Now give each other a hug. It makes me sad when you are mean to each other and it's not going to happen anymore. At all. If one of you is mean... etc, etc."...You get the idea.

 

I've been pretty gotten on them pretty quickly for this so they've never been REALLY mean to each other (it has gotten as far as a few hits and occasional name calling, e.g. stupid, or "brat"). And I can honestly say that they "get" my brothers speech and they don't love anyone or anything in the whole world as much as they love their brothers & sisters. They are best friends.

 

I think part of the reason this is happening is because you let it get too far and because you aren't setting your goals high enough. You don't want your boys to "tolerate" each other! They are going to remember their childhoods for the rest of their lives! They are living together during their most vulnerable and formative years! Any friendship they will have in the future starts now. Yes, sometimes kids with this kind of relationship can grow up and be buds, but that's despite the baggage in their relationship when they were kids.

 

Part of the reason I'm so vigilant with my kids is because 1) we are Christians and if you don't love your literal brother, how can you love your figurative brother? and also because 2) my brother was the "predator" when I we were kids, and I was the "prey." He called me stupid all the time (and I started to believe it after years). I'm quite sure my mom thought we would just grow out of it and it was just "normal" sibling rivalry... big brother picking on little sister. But I remember to this day all the things he said and did to me. Did he "love" me deep down? I'm sure he did, but he was way too cool and I was way too "annoying" for him to admit it or remotely act like it. It was hurtful, though I never said a lot about it when I was a kid. And you know what's sad is I can tell that now he's more mature and he doesn't pick on my now, of course :tongue_smilie:, and isn't mean to me, but we both sense that baggage and our relationship has never been decent even as adults. We never talk on the phone, I see him sometimes when I visit my parents, but our conversations are even weird. It's awkward to this day because we never were made to treat each other decently, let alone like brother and sister!, or like family. Point being, sometimes it never "goes away." They might wise up, but that baggage never just disappears. They may be kids, but they are forging a history together that will remain for the rest of their lives.

 

And they are kids so they won't mend their ways on their own. You have to put the "smack down" ;) and force the issue for a while until it becomes more natural for them to be nice to each other and, yes, LOVE each other. Frequent heart-to-hearts are going to be necessary, and serious discipline is of utmost importance (I didn't pay attention to whether dad is involved, but it's essential for dad to get on board here).

 

Novel alert! Yikes. Anyway, if you're a Christian I would also step-up the religious education and have them read more character building books and talk about how God not only wants us to be nice, but demands that we treat others as we want to be treated. Throw out all the "I hate my siblings... Oh, it's so embarrassing to be seen with my sister" books. You can imagine that I despise those themes in books for kids. (Who ever thought that was a good idea for kids to read? :confused:) Provide virtuous role models for them, read good books together with virtuous kid characters who love their siblings (Boxcar children!!), crack down on Mr.Predator especially, and hold your ground. I think they are young enough that you can turn this ship around with a lot of effort, and not have to settle for them "tolerating each other."

 

:grouphug:

 

 

I don't think this is the cure all either. My dh's mom approached her sons' issues in the same way. Made them profess their love, read the Bible to them, disallowed anything that spoke of negative sibling relationships. It just made my dh feel resentment towards his brother, and vice versa. He and his brother are only 2 years apart, but they are light years apart in personality. My dh is a responsible, law-abiding citizen. His brother is a creepy scoundrel for lack of a better term. His brother has always been self-centered, since they were younger. Trying to make my dh feel affection toward his brother only made him resent his mother, as well. You cannot force a bond between two such divergent personalities, no matter how closely related.

 

Today, my dh lives several states away, and hasn't spoken to his brother, even on the phone, in...about 7 years.

 

I think that the advice given by others to encourage, but not push, is probably most likely to get positive results.

[Random]

My library has Siblings Without Rivalry. I can pick it up tomorrow, hopefully.

 

I'm not sure what else to do, yet. I will take the advice given here and think and pray and watch my boys with an eagle eye for the next few days, to see what I can see.

 

I really appreciate everyone's comments.

[hearts4homeschooling]

They may be allergic to each other. No kidding, we really can be allergic to other people. You can research NAET.com to learn more about curing this allergy. We are undergoing this, and it is helping.

[bettyandbob]

you could always remind them that one day one of them might need a kidney and a brother who you get along with comes in handy for organ donation.

 

 

 

OK this doesn't really work with my kids either, but saying it keeps me from blowing my top.

[kewb]

I don't really have any helpful advice. I can tell you my sister and I fought like cats and dogs all of our lives. We are night and day in terms of personality. We just didn't get along. I spent my childhood just trying to stay out of her way. When she left for college our relationship started to improve. Now as adults I won't say we are the best of friends but we do get together a couple of times a year and have a good time. Nobody understands our moms craziness like we do.

[fischerl]

They may be kids, but they are forging a history together that will remain for the rest of their lives.

 

This is true; I've always told my kids: "Your friends will come and go throughout your life, but you'll always have your siblings, for better or worse. You may as well invest in the friendships you have right here in your home. It's so convenient! :D

 

A few other things that have worked (according to my college-aged DD):

1. When there's fun news to share (e.g. "Grandpa's coming to visit!") let one child (the prey, maybe?) tell the others. People generally like the bearer of good news.

2. As previously posted, don't reward bad behavior with attention. I wouldn't show emotion, just be calm and cool and isolate the instigator. Let him be bored for a while.

3. Treat your children (especially the eldest) the way you want him to treat others. Children tend to adopt the character traits of those who influence them. Which leads to...

4. Pay attention to the friendships and authority figures in your kids' lives: children pick up attitudes from others. If there are negative influencers, purge them if possible, or at least be nearby to monitor so you can "debrief" later.

5.

Throw out all the "I hate my siblings... Oh, it's so embarrassing to be seen with my sister" books.

I agree. These are negative influencers (see #4).

6. Make sure you're spending some one-on-one time with each child on a regular basis, so they don't have to compete for your attention. Not sure if this is an issue at your house, but it is a common one. Even 20 minutes of a fun read-aloud, or a walk to the park, just the two of you, or whatever you can squeeze in.

7. As others have said, I would never allow name-calling or hitting to go unpunished. Have clearly-communicated consequences for such, and act swiftly but calmly and matter-of-factly. I did read Siblings Without Rivalry, and although there are some interesting ideas in it, I do not agree with just "letting them work it out" because the stronger personality will always get his way.

8. Teach conflict-resolution skills. Sometimes when my kids argued and couldn't seem to get past it, I'd have them each sit on a different piece of furniture in the same room, and they weren't allowed to get up until they talked it out and became "friends again." Never took more than a couple of minutes.:001_smile:

This forced them to talk about it, because there was nothing else to do!

9. Also as previously mentioned, include plenty of character-building lessons (not in the middle of a conflict, but as a regular part of school) and fun books with siblings who enjoy each other (I think TaraJo mentioned Boxcar Children). These are what I would call "positive influencers."

10. Get them outside every day if possible. Fresh air and exercise does wonders for bad attitudes.

11. If you are a Christian, pray often and fervently and very specifically about this. Mention your children by name and ask God to change their hearts toward each other. Of course you'll be asking Him for wisdom and patience for yourself as well. :lol: Ask him to show you if there's anything you're doing that you need to change. I really believe that He cares very much about families.

 

I agree that some of this is personality and/or immaturity. Hopefully they will become friends as they get older.

 

FWIW, today my children are good friends with each other and really enjoy hanging out together, especially DS with either DD.

 

:grouphug:

[CatholicMom]

I don't think this is the cure all either. My dh's mom approached her sons' issues in the same way. Made them profess their love, read the Bible to them, disallowed anything that spoke of negative sibling relationships. It just made my dh feel resentment towards his brother, and vice versa. He and his brother are only 2 years apart, but they are light years apart in personality. My dh is a responsible, law-abiding citizen. His brother is a creepy scoundrel for lack of a better term. His brother has always been self-centered, since they were younger. Trying to make my dh feel affection toward his brother only made him resent his mother, as well. You cannot force a bond between two such divergent personalities, no matter how closely related.

 

I'm not saying to do everything I said in the absence of teaching and training each of your kids in virtue. That would be kind of impossible. If one of your kids has a very self-centered attitude that's never effectively dealt with and is turning out to be a.. uhh... scoundrel :tongue_smilie: you did something very wrong. Everyone makes mistakes and some kids naturally have better "hearts" than others. But as parents we don't just say "oh boy, this one has a really self-centered attitude. That's too bad." No, you recognize sinful tendencies and that's good, and wise parents use these observations to target the training of their children. The sooner you recognize it and the sooner you deal with it (while it's still a small issue and not heavily ingrained) the easier it will be to counteract it. We don't just let kids grow up and go whatever which way they want to go, good or bad... we are there to train them, lead them, keep them on the right path, cultivate virtue in them. That's why I said we should try to prick our children's hearts and motivate them inwardly to love each other... not just force them to say they love each other regardless of whether or not they mean it. You can't foster real love in their hearts for their family (including each other) while ignoring Johnny's blatant self-centeredness (or meanness, or fault-finding, or thoughtlessness, etc). It doesn't make sense. I don't think it's an either-or. It's absolutely both. Help them love each other by learning to value their family more, training, discipline, virtuous examples, and working on their own characters.

[Aelwydd]

But as parents we don't just say "oh boy, this one has a really self-centered attitude. That's too bad." No, you recognize sinful tendencies and that's good, and wise parents use these observations to target the training of their children. The sooner you recognize it and the sooner you deal with it (while it's still a small issue and not heavily ingrained) the easier it will be to counteract it. We don't just let kids grow up and go whatever which way they want to go, good or bad... we are there to train them, lead them, keep them on the right path, cultivate virtue in them.

 

I understand what you're saying, but respectfully, my mil did all these things, and more. She did not ignore his issues. Their dad is a very devoted pastor and family man. They had the guidance and the training. No matter what their parents did to discipline him, no matter that he was educated in a private, evangelical Christian school, in addition to having devoted endless time and energy teaching them the Bible, and taking them to church--it didn't matter. He was always defiant, and refused to bend to their will.

 

But because my mil kept pushing, and pushing, and pushing for the boys to get along and love each other, she ended up alienating dh. He is and always has been a completely different person from his brother.

 

Partly because of their blindness on this issue, my dh rejected his parents' tradition, ultimately, because it was too stifling, too simplistic, for his very curious, artsy nature. All their pressuring did was make him angry (and hurt) that they would insist he accept and become close to someone that did and said terrible things all. the. time.

 

His brother is...like I said, a scoundrel. Cheating on his wife, doing illegal things, always depending on others to do work for him, that sort of character. DH has never felt a kinship with his brother, and frankly, I'm glad. His brother is scummy!

[*********]

I'm going to try to not sound too harsh here... but I think your goal *should* be for them to love each other. They are brothers!! I think it's a mistake to teach them that they don't have to love each other or like each other, but just tolerate each other. Tolerating is very difficult if you inwardly can't stand the person. Tolerating might work on the surface for co-workers and strangers, but it doesn't work within families... and the goal should be much higher. They are brothers! They should care for each other and love each other!

 

If one of them is "predator" I would bet that's a ton of the problem. If one is picking on the other all the time you need to crack down, big-time. Unfortunately, 10 is a little old for spanking to do the wonders it can do when kids are younger. That's why you should never let it get to that point (I'm saying this partly for others who might be reading, and partly to encourage you to not let it get anywhere near this point with younger siblings). So you will have to be serious about rebuking and disciplining (serious, harsh, no-messing-around, major consequences for being mean to Mr.Prey). You have to be motivated and determined and verbal that picking on, bossing, hurting, or insulting just will. not. happen. any. more. But if you're not 100% serious about it and believe in the cause, any effort will almost certainly fail.

 

When my boys (ages 8 & 7) have been mean to each other (or one mean to the other), I have sat down and given them a serious talk. No games, no activities. A serious, honest talk about how they are BROTHERS. Try to prick their little hearts. I said, there are going to be people you'll meet all over the place for the rest of your lives who don't care about you. They won't care about your feelings, they won't listen to you, they might not like you. But YOU TWO are brothers and you are family. You need to look after each other, protect each other, care about each other, love each other. Period. You only have 1, or 2 (or however many) brothers and you will be brothers for the rest of your LIVES. You will never get back the mean things you say. You can't undo the mean things you do, etc, etc. "Now give each other a hug. It makes me sad when you are mean to each other and it's not going to happen anymore. At all. If one of you is mean... etc, etc."...You get the idea.

 

I've been pretty gotten on them pretty quickly for this so they've never been REALLY mean to each other (it has gotten as far as a few hits and occasional name calling, e.g. stupid, or "brat"). And I can honestly say that they "get" my brothers speech and they don't love anyone or anything in the whole world as much as they love their brothers & sisters. They are best friends.

 

I think part of the reason this is happening is because you let it get too far and because you aren't setting your goals high enough. You don't want your boys to "tolerate" each other! They are going to remember their childhoods for the rest of their lives! They are living together during their most vulnerable and formative years! Any friendship they will have in the future starts now. Yes, sometimes kids with this kind of relationship can grow up and be buds, but that's despite the baggage in their relationship when they were kids.

 

Part of the reason I'm so vigilant with my kids is because 1) we are Christians and if you don't love your literal brother, how can you love your figurative brother? and also because 2) my brother was the "predator" when I we were kids, and I was the "prey." He called me stupid all the time (and I started to believe it after years). I'm quite sure my mom thought we would just grow out of it and it was just "normal" sibling rivalry... big brother picking on little sister. But I remember to this day all the things he said and did to me. Did he "love" me deep down? I'm sure he did, but he was way too cool and I was way too "annoying" for him to admit it or remotely act like it. It was hurtful, though I never said a lot about it when I was a kid. And you know what's sad is I can tell that now he's more mature and he doesn't pick on my now, of course :tongue_smilie:, and isn't mean to me, but we both sense that baggage and our relationship has never been decent even as adults. We never talk on the phone, I see him sometimes when I visit my parents, but our conversations are even weird. It's awkward to this day because we never were made to treat each other decently, let alone like brother and sister!, or like family. Point being, sometimes it never "goes away." They might wise up, but that baggage never just disappears. They may be kids, but they are forging a history together that will remain for the rest of their lives.

 

And they are kids so they won't mend their ways on their own. You have to put the "smack down" ;) and force the issue for a while until it becomes more natural for them to be nice to each other and, yes, LOVE each other. Frequent heart-to-hearts are going to be necessary, and serious discipline is of utmost importance (I didn't pay attention to whether dad is involved, but it's essential for dad to get on board here).

 

Novel alert! Yikes. Anyway, if you're a Christian I would also step-up the religious education and have them read more character building books and talk about how God not only wants us to be nice, but demands that we treat others as we want to be treated. Throw out all the "I hate my siblings... Oh, it's so embarrassing to be seen with my sister" books. You can imagine that I despise those themes in books for kids. (Who ever thought that was a good idea for kids to read? :confused:) Provide virtuous role models for them, read good books together with virtuous kid characters who love their siblings (Boxcar children!!), crack down on Mr.Predator especially, and hold your ground. I think they are young enough that you can turn this ship around with a lot of effort, and not have to settle for them "tolerating each other."

 

:grouphug:

 

I completely agree with this. We have done things very similarly to how TaraJo describes, and my two boys are the best of friends. Yes, they have their moments. But they genuinely do love one another.

 

you could always remind them that one day one of them might need a kidney and a brother who you get along with comes in handy for organ donation.

 

That. Is. HILARIOUS. :lol:

 

-Bethany (who really did donate a kidney to her sister. :D)