Are you a religious liberal? Please talk to me.

[Rivka]

I do find it funny that I say that you should look into Reform Judaism. An you wouldn't have to change your name...:lol:

 

We live in a majority-Orthodox neighborhood. Am I correct in assuming that it would bug our neighbors more if we were Reform Jews than it does now that we're Gentiles?

[YaelAldrich]

We live in a majority-Orthodox neighborhood. Am I correct in assuming that it would bug our neighbors more if we were Reform Jews than it does now that we're Gentiles?

 

Nah. I don't think so. I know I couldn't care less as long as you are a good neighbor and tolerate all the crazy stuff we do! But seriously, they and I wouldn't consider you a Jew in a halachic (according to Jewish law) sense, like EM said up thread, but I am sure you are an awesome person and I would be happy to have y'all over for Shabbos anytime (really since we live not so far away).

 

So I now know where you live! Maybe I should come to your house with some pamphlets with Stars of David on them!!:D :lol: :D

[Ester Maria]

We live in a majority-Orthodox neighborhood. Am I correct in assuming that it would bug our neighbors more if we were Reform Jews than it does now that we're Gentiles?

I doubt they would care, seriously. :lol:

 

I cannot tell you in good faith that they would recognize you as Jewish, because they would not. Anyone who is Orthodox or "accepting of Orthodoxy as a framework" cannot do it while remaining intellectually honest. :) But you would still be their awesome neighbor, good friend, and a great person.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Ester Maria

[enviromommy]

Before posting this thread, I did consider that it might lead to people proselytizing me.

 

I must say, I was not expecting the efforts to be in this direction. :lol:

 

And I'm staying out of this altogether... or at least, until I see you on Thursday ;)

[redsquirrel]

I didn't get to read all that you wrote, but I have one word of advice:

 

Stop Teaching RE! I don't. When I said to 'get in the kitchen' I meant for you to be a participant in a class for adults. I don't teach the kids much at all. I am a homeschooling parent. I am teaching kids all bloody day. Ok, I teach OWL but only for the littles and that is only 6 weeks. I am so glad when it is done.

 

My husband, he teaches teenage OWL and he is a Coming of Age leader and has been on the board and blah, blah, blah. More power to him.

 

Me? Church is a place for me to talk to grownups about grownup things. I don't teach the kids, I don't take notes at meeting and I have never spent a moment in the basement. I sit in the parlor where I can hear the service, I drink coffee and I knit. I am there early for the Adult RE when I can. This winter I took a class on the new testament. It was wonderful. It was so great to sit in a room with other grownups and really talk about what we had read, sharing our own perspectives and thoughts on the matter, learning about the history of the bible etc.

 

If you want to be challenged to think about things and explain why you think them etc then you would really enjoy Building Your Own Theology. I was lucky enough to take it with Dick Gilbert (the author) while he was our interim minister. It was a great class. Maybe you could talk to the RE director and see if anyone has led the class in the past?

 

Can you join a women's group? I am in one. Do you know what we do? Twice a month we go to a restaurant, get a couple snacks and a glass of wine. We have decided it is small group ministry :lol: I am the youngest women in the group by far. I am prob the same age as some of their daughters, and man do we have a wicked good time! These days, that is what I need. That makes my heart happy.

[Spy Car]

Yes, well, my history of baptism and confirmation might raise eyebrows...

 

Claim coercion ;) :D

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

We live in a majority-Orthodox neighborhood. Am I correct in assuming that it would bug our neighbors more if we were Reform Jews than it does now that we're Gentiles?

 

As you reconnect with your Jewish roots you will realize "what's so wrong with being irritated?" :D

 

Bill

[Rivka]

I would be happy to have y'all over for Shabbos anytime (really since we live not so far away).

 

That would be great!

 

So I now know where you live! Maybe I should come to your house with some pamphlets with Stars of David on them!!:D :lol: :D

 

Come on up! If you get too pushy, I'll just sweetly insist on making you something to eat. :D

[Rivka]

Since you are yearning for intellectual challenge, I suggest researching into church history, the origins of scripture, the many different translations out there, and how different traditions have evolved in the various branches of Christiandom. Consider taking a class online, or join a discussion board that focuses on theological discussion.

 

Do you have any specific recommendations? I suspect from your posting history that I would probably like things you like.

 

One blog I really like is Experimental Theology. I actually get it delivered to my Kindle (via Amazon) and look forward to reading it. I recently read some Philip Gulley books: If Grace is True and If God Is Love. Not sure if that's what you're looking for. I also enjoy reading Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

 

I liked what I saw in a quick scan of that blog, thanks. And Philip Gulley looks interesting. I recently picked up Love Wins by Rob Bell - have you read that? I haven't read it yet, but it looks as if it might be coming from a similar Christian universalist perspective.

[Spy Car]

Maybe I should come to your house with some pamphlets with Stars of David on them!!:D :lol: :D

 

The last people to show up on my doorstep with pamphlets with the Star of David on them were out making their rounds on Shabbos. You can guess the rest ;)

 

Bill

[enviromommy]

That would be great!

 

 

 

Wait a second, you have to come to us first!! You know that, right?

 

Yael, are you in my neighborhood too? Then let me have you all for lunch.

[YaelAldrich]

We Jews always have to make it about "us, us, us". There, now I've said it before anyone can think it. :lol:

[YaelAldrich]

That would be great!

 

 

 

Wait a second, you have to come to us first!! You know that, right?

 

Yael, are you in my neighborhood too? Then let me have you all for lunch.

 

No, I am in Kemp Mill in Silver Spring. Do we know each other? I always go to Yehudis Eagle's house for her monthly get-together...

[enviromommy]

 

No, I am in Kemp Mill in Silver Spring. Do we know each other? I always go to Yehudis Eagle's house for her monthly get-together...

 

You are kidding! Light bulb moment. We haven't been in a while, but yes, we must know each other. Going to PM you.

[Rivka]

That would be great!

 

Wait a second, you have to come to us first!! You know that, right?

 

Yael INVITED me first. :tongue_smilie:

 

(Wait, didn't R's bat mitzvah count as coming to you first? We went to your shul and everything! ...Wait, were you secretly trying to convert me?! :lol:)

[enviromommy]

 

Yael INVITED me first. :tongue_smilie:

 

(Wait, didn't R's bat mitzvah count as coming to you first? We went to your shul and everything! ...Wait, were you secretly trying to convert me?! :lol:)

 

Umm, yeah, the bat mitzvah counted!! And duh, I was trying to convert you... I hired all those people to make it look like a real bat mitzvah. What, you thought that was my REAL family?? :lol:

 

And FWIW, you are invited to lunch any ole week you want to come.

[StephanieZ]

(((Hugs)))

 

BTDT

 

We were UU for a long time (my Dad was UU when I was a little kid), and we left around the time my kids were getting to be school age. I was homeschooling, and as a "Christian UU", I felt like I had to homeschool bible/religion as well, as Sunday RE for the kids covered everything except Christianity. I felt like *our* UU congregation celebrated every religion EXCEPT Christianity. I felt like *I* could have been OK in a UU congregation indefinitely, but that I felt like my kids needed and deserved guidance and support in developing a religious identity, and I wanted that grounded in Christianity, despite our open, liberal approach to it . . .

 

Anyway, I guess it an anti-Christian slant is understandable, since so many UUers are refugees from Christianity. I always felt like I should have been a UU back in the day . . . You know, the 1700/1800s, when it was a liberal interpretation of Christianity, not just a catch all for refugees from rules-based churches.

 

Anyway, we found a GREAT fit in a liberal, thriving, splendid Episcopal congregation. It was awesome in every way. Actually, it still is. My mom still is a member. Unfortunately, we moved far away, and, while we were members of the local Episcopal congregation for several years, it was never the wonderful fit that the first one was.

 

With *any* church, sometimes you have bad luck with the leadership. Sometimes, I have taken to wandering the RE hall myself. I know how disheartening that is. Sometimes, you can just wait it out, as ministers often move on after a few years, and you might outlast them. :)

 

From a bad experience with that, I learned to simply completely stay out of church politics. UU congregations are especially fragile since the board EMPLOYS the minister. It makes it really hard if you are put on the board, or asked to be on it, or even active in the election process, b/c it is easy for the minister to get threatened. I have, without fail, regretted allowing myself to be pulled into any church politics. It makes it miserable.

 

Other denominations many UUs are drawn to are Friends/Quakers. We tried that before moving to Episcopal, but it happened that we were church shopping right around 9/11, and the pure pacifism of the Friends didn't speak to us, especially living in DC at that time. If it had been any other time, we might have gone that route, even though the pacifism is a stretch for our personalities (despite the fact that it appeals to my heart/intellect).

 

With Episcopal and UCC, just be sure you are considering the "liberal" one in your town. When we moved to our town, there were/are two Episcopal churches, and it just took two friendly conversations with the priests at each, letting them know I was a liberal, pro-gay, etc Episcpal to find out which one was the liberal one, and which was still in the dark ages. :)

 

Some folks also find good fits at Presbyterian. YMMV.

 

(((hugs))) and good luck. I am still at loose ends. I miss the fellowship of a supportive congregation, but our town is small, and choices for a religious liberal are limited, especially as I have some very strict ethical lines I won't cross -- as in I won't participate in any congregation that doesn't fully include gays & fully welcome them, not just tolerating them . . .

[Spy Car]

 

(Wait, didn't R's bat mitzvah count as coming to you first? We went to your shul and everything! ...Wait, were you secretly trying to convert me?! :lol:)

 

Shul? :lol:

 

Maybe we're aiming too low with a Reform conversion? :D

 

Bill

[enviromommy]

Shul? :lol:

 

Maybe we're aiming too low with a Reform conversion? :D

 

Bill

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

It's my fault - we've been hanging out too much and she's picked up on the lingo.

[Rivka]

Maybe we're aiming too low with a Reform conversion? :D

 

Frankly, Bill, I'm disappointed that you aren't trying to convert me to be an Ortholicipalicanian (West Coast synod). What, aren't I good enough for you?

[enviromommy]

Frankly, Bill, I'm disappointed that you aren't trying to convert me to be an Ortholicipalicanian (West Coast synod). What, aren't I good enough for you?

 

Ok, I just googled that to see if it was real (I knew it wasn't a religion but thought it might be SOMETHING)... and Google sent me back to WTM, which is, apparently, the only place on the internet where the word has ever been used.

[Spy Car]

Frankly, Bill, I'm disappointed that you aren't trying to convert me to be an Ortholicipalicanian (West Coast synod). What, aren't I good enough for you?

 

Ok, I just googled that to see if it was real (I knew it wasn't a religion but thought it might be SOMETHING)... and Google sent me back to WTM, which is, apparently, the only place on the internet where the word has ever been used.

 

It's a new thing. We're ecumenical :D

 

Bill

[Happy2BaMom]

I'm UCC (after a long stretch of years after searching at many mainstream and even some non-denom Christian churches). After living in many places all over the country and trying DOZENS of churches, I can honestly say that church for me and dh is 90% the minister. And if the minister doesn't "work", it quickly becomes a matter of obligation to go to church.

 

Yup, I know the many, many, many reasons why it's not SUPPOSED to be that way. You're supposed to support the church, or the denomination, or the Bible, or whatever. However, in more liberal-minded churches, I think the key is having a leader/minister who has dug deep enough in him-or-her-self to have found the complexity, the depth, the contradictions, and, deep down enough, the unity of the thread through all of those things. If he or she has not really wrestled with those topics, too often the liberal-minded message becomes the "we's jus' loves everybodys here, and that's ALL that matters!", with the incumbent shallowness and lack of meaning that our more conservative brethren are all-too-fond of throwing at us.

 

Our current minister is fabulous. His sermons regularly reference 4 - 7 outside reading sources, current events, Bible history, etc, all interwoven with Scripture. He always makes us think...mostly because he is always thinking, and praying, and exploring, and questioning.

 

So, I know this is probably not helping you much, but I hear your 'call', and I think there is a longing to go deeper into your own spiritual journey (without having a minister to help you get there, though) and it sounds to me like the minister just isn't a good "fit" for where you are at.

 

I second (or is it third) checking out the Quakers. I love the Friends and they would probably be my first choice if they were a choice here (however, dh was career military, so maybe not....):tongue_smilie:

 

FWIW, here are some resources that have really helped me over the years when I felt like I was in spiritual drylands:

Books by/about Edgar Cayce: A Search for God and There Is A River;

Phillip Gulley's books, especially If God is Love and The Evolution of Faith

Martin Luther King, Jr.'s books and speeches...pretty much anything/everything

Books by/about St. Francis

Edited February 8, 2012 by Happy2BaMom

[Spy Car]

As you reconnect with your Jewish roots you will realize "what's so wrong with being irritated?" :D

 

Bill

 

Sorry to quote myself but I'm going to run with the irritation theme as this weeks Torah portion (Parashat ha-Shavua) is Parashat Beshalach (otherwise known as Exodus 13:17-17:16).

 

Here the Israelites are on the run from Pharaoh's army and about to be destroyed when G-d miraculously parts the waters of the Sea of Reeds allowing escape to the Jews, but not to the enemy who are drowned to the man. It's big! Cecil B DeMille/Charlton Heston big. Divine intervention on a massive scale.

 

But does the happiness last? Of course not. Just three days later the people are irritated that the water they find in the desert is brackish and bitter. They get irritated with G-d.

 

"What shall we drink?"

 

The moral of the story? Embrace being irritated and being irritating. Two sides of one beautiful coin :D

 

This is Ortholicipalicanianism (West Coast Synod) in a nutshell! :tongue_smilie:

 

And what does one find inside nutshells?

 

Bill

[Elizabeth in MN]

Okay, Ima say this once because it's complex. I was raised an Episcopalian (both my parents are ministers in the church), but have been Pagan, UU, and am currently putting the Liberal back in LDS.

 

In all my bouncing around when I needed a bit of direction I would do the Belief-O-Matic Quiz to get my spiritual compass in order. I've found that the quiz helps me remember what it important to me (social works and justice) and what isn't (dogma). Lately I come out Liberal Quaker. Anywho, give the test a spin and see where the magic eight ball sends you. Maybe it's nothing, maybe it's home.

 

Another idea is doing some RE for yourself. I know in The Latin-Centered Curriculum there is an intense chapter on religious education. It's mostly Christian, but it's a lot of deep books that make give you what you are needing in the way of intellectual stimulation. Many Episcopalian churches have book studies on weekday evenings. Some of the best religious reading I get is at chabad.org.

[Rivka]

After living in many places all over the country and trying DOZENS of churches, I can honestly say that church for me and dh is 90% the minister. And if the minister doesn't "work", it quickly becomes a matter of obligation to go to church.

 

Yup, I know the many, many, many reasons why it's not SUPPOSED to be that way. You're supposed to support the church, or the denomination, or the Bible, or whatever. However, in more liberal-minded churches, I think the key is having a leader/minister who has dug deep enough in him-or-her-self to have found the complexity, the depth, the contradictions, and, deep down enough, the unity of the thread through all of those things. If he or she has not really wrestled with those topics, too often the liberal-minded message becomes the "we's jus' loves everybodys here, and that's ALL that matters!", with the incumbent shallowness and lack of meaning that our more conservative brethren are all-too-fond of throwing at us.

 

Yeah, I think this is a good assessment. So I guess the moral is that if you want to maintain a strong connection with a particular church as an institution, the only way to do it is to get yourself placed on the ministerial search committee every time there's a change of leadership. ;)

 

I don't know if this minister is less popular than others or if I'm just more aware of factions in the church because my husband is the president, but there are a number of people who don't like him and who are playing church politics about it in a nasty way. Even though I don't like him either, that whole dynamic makes me feel even less like being there.

[Rivka]

And I just realized I gave no real advice. Because I have none. I just wanted to commiserate and think out loud.

 

I actually found your commiseration and thinking-out-loud helpful, so thanks. Your senior minister gave a sermon at our church years ago that is one of my top ten of all time. I might try out some of his podcasts.

 

Have you looked at any of the resources through the Church of the Larger Fellowship to see if there's anything there that might help with the intellectual stimulation part? http://clf.uua.org/ I know it's not as ideal as face to face, but might be helpful. I'll send a pm with a link to podcasts from our minister---she's been a revitalizing force for our congregation. [...]

 

I was Episcopalian for many years and, if I could have remained Christian, would have stayed there. The music is great, as is the liturgy, and they are, in general, very open to LGBT participation and to social justice in various forms. I really miss the liturgy, to be honest. When I was there, I participated in a program called Education for Ministry, which was a fabulous program about Biblical exegesis, church history, etc., and it looks like they have an online option now if you can't find a local group http://www.sewanee.edu/EFM/.

 

Thank you so much for the resources. Your mention of CLF reminds me that since the UU World went to an online format I haven't been reading it; that might be a good place to start looking for more depth.

 

Stop Teaching RE! I don't. When I said to 'get in the kitchen' I meant for you to be a participant in a class for adults. I don't teach the kids much at all. I am a homeschooling parent. I am teaching kids all bloody day. Ok, I teach OWL but only for the littles and that is only 6 weeks. I am so glad when it is done.

 

Me? Church is a place for me to talk to grownups about grownup things. I don't teach the kids, I don't take notes at meeting and I have never spent a moment in the basement. I sit in the parlor where I can hear the service, I drink coffee and I knit. I am there early for the Adult RE when I can. This winter I took a class on the new testament. It was wonderful. It was so great to sit in a room with other grownups and really talk about what we had read, sharing our own perspectives and thoughts on the matter, learning about the history of the bible etc.

 

I'm not teaching RE this year on purpose, and I also didn't direct the Christmas pageant this year. My goal with those things was to get out of the RE wing and spend more time trying to get my own faith nurtured, but it hasn't worked out that way.

 

I think you're right that a good RE class would help a lot, but my church just doesn't do much with adult RE. I have taken RE-type classes at SUUSI before, and some of them have been excellent, but in recent years the spirituality section of the SUUSI catalog has been overloaded with New Age mysticism that doesn't work for me at all. Maybe this year's catalog will surprise me...

 

With *any* church, sometimes you have bad luck with the leadership. Sometimes, I have taken to wandering the RE hall myself. I know how disheartening that is. Sometimes, you can just wait it out, as ministers often move on after a few years, and you might outlast them. :)

 

From a bad experience with that, I learned to simply completely stay out of church politics. UU congregations are especially fragile since the board EMPLOYS the minister. It makes it really hard if you are put on the board, or asked to be on it, or even active in the election process, b/c it is easy for the minister to get threatened. I have, without fail, regretted allowing myself to be pulled into any church politics. It makes it miserable.

 

Thanks for this perspective. I do feel as though it's been bad for my personal relationship to the church to have my husband on the board, and this may be part of why. He's really good at church politics, and he's a gifted leader, but for me the constant exposure to the political side increases my sense of alienation. And keeps me from complaining, incidentally, because I'm aware that in a sense our family are public faces of the church.

 

With Episcopal and UCC, just be sure you are considering the "liberal" one in your town. When we moved to our town, there were/are two Episcopal churches, and it just took two friendly conversations with the priests at each, letting them know I was a liberal, pro-gay, etc Episcpal to find out which one was the liberal one, and which was still in the dark ages. :)

 

Hee! Yes, I am well aware of what it means when there are, for example, two UCC churches in a town. I have been carefully scrutinizing church web sites.

 

There's a liberal Episcopal church not very far from me that has a 9am choral Eucharist service. I could conceivably go to the 9am service by myself and come home in time to get the whole family to our UU church in time for the 11am service. I might try that out.

 

I would do the Belief-O-Matic Quiz to get my spiritual compass in order. I've found that the quiz helps me remember what it important to me (social works and justice) and what isn't (dogma). Lately I come out Liberal Quaker. Anywho, give the test a spin and see where the magic eight ball sends you. Maybe it's nothing, maybe it's home.

 

Belief-O-Matic says that I'm 100% UU, followed by Liberal Quaker and Neo-Pagan. So there's a start. :D

[Jenny in Florida]

There's a liberal Episcopal church not very far from me that has a 9am choral Eucharist service. I could conceivably go to the 9am service by myself and come home in time to get the whole family to our UU church in time for the 11am service. I might try that out.

 

Tell you what: Let's make a pact to try this on Sunday?

 

I'm not aware of any liberal Episcopal churches in my area. My son sings with a Royal School of Church Music choir at the Episcopal cathedral. So, I end up going to their services several times a year. I love, LOVE the music and the pageantry of it all. If I could find an Episcopal church where I also connected with the sermon, we might really be in business.

 

What I do want to try, though, is the UCC church not far from my home. They also have a fantastic music program and seem to be on the same page with me in lots of social justice/civil rights kinds of ways. Their services end 15 minutes before "our" church's begin, and I'm not certain I can make it back here in time. But I've about decided it wouldn't be the end of the world if I just slipped into the santuary of our current church after the opening words, right?

 

So, let's do it. This Sunday, I'll go to the UCC and you go to the Episcopal church. Then, we'll compare notes here, okay?

[Jenny in Florida]

Belief-O-Matic says that I'm 100% UU, followed by Liberal Quaker and Neo-Pagan. So there's a start. :D

 

My top three matches are:

 

1. UU (100%)

2. Secular Humanism (95%) - And, although I understand why the quiz results say that, it's not even close.

3. Liberal Quakers (90%)

 

Every few years, when I get frustrated with UU, I do this quiz. I'm always hoping it will tell me I have some other, better option.

[Melinda in VT]

My top three matches are:

 

1. UU (100%)

2. Secular Humanism (95%) - And, although I understand why the quiz results say that, it's not even close.

3. Liberal Quakers (90%)

 

Every few years, when I get frustrated with UU, I do this quiz. I'm always hoping it will tell me I have some other, better option.

 

Given those results, I think UCC may very well be a good fit for you. I'm looking forward to hearing how your visit goes. :001_smile:

[ktgrok]

saw this just now and thought of you: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/guest-voices/post/bishop-of-episcopal-diocese-calls-for-marriage-equality-in-maryland/2012/02/07/gIQAxh8qwQ_blog.html

[Alessandra]

Here is a link you might like -- it is for the Society of Saint John the Evangelist (Cowley Fathers).

 

http://www.ssje.org/index.html

http://www.ssje.org/store.html#cowley

 

I realize that it may sound counter-intuitive to suggest monks to for liberal advice, lol. But they are a very liberal Episcopal order that specializes in spiritual direction. They do retreats and have a small publications branch. They appeal to people who sound a lot like you. But they are on the east coast (MA), so that could be a big drawback, depending on where you are.

[Matryoshka]

I haven't read all the responses (but I did skim) - I only saw this after the thread was veeery long!

 

My church is affiliated with both UU/UCC. I find this a good mix, as I have also found many UU churches to be hyper-secular (no God language allowed, a bit anti-Christian/Jesus, perhaps due to there being a lot of people who come to UU with baggage), and even the liberal UCC is a bit too Christian for me. :tongue_smilie: The mix for me is good - we can worship God (rather than Spirit or the Universe), read from the Bible as well as other religious texts and inspirational readings, people can believe in Jesus as divine, or not - it's all good.

 

I agree with one of the other posts I did read that it's often all about the minister. I love our minister. I feel inspired and uplifted by her sermons. A few years before the church found her (and before I joined), they hired another guy who created dissention and a whole lot of people left. If a new minister came in that left me cold, I don't know what I'd do - I do love the community as well, but I'm not just going for coffee hour, y'know?

 

Another denomination that you might conisder looking at is the Unity churches. I have to honestly say that I've never attended a service at one, so maybe I'm off the mark, but once when we were considering a move I looked at the churches in the new area (no UU/UCC ones to be found!) the Unity church's description of itself on its website made it seem like it could be a good fit for a misfit like me. :)

[Rivka]

So, let's do it. This Sunday, I'll go to the UCC and you go to the Episcopal church. Then, we'll compare notes here, okay?

 

I need to clear it with my husband, given that it would put him on the hook with the kids, but if that's not a problem, then yeah. I'm game.

 

Thanks for the date-specific prod; I probably need it. :)

[Mama_Rana]

I'm a tiny bit surprised to hear so many people say they have found UU churches to be anti-Christian.... not surprised in a "I don't believe you way", just a "I'm glad that hasn't been my experience" way. Our minister often cites Biblical verses as supporting her points, she sometimes uses "God" and "amen", and she openly admires Jesus. Last fall she did a sermon on the book, "Love Wins" by the evangelical Christian minister Rob Bell. She is openly agnostic, but I don't find her anti-Christian.

 

I guess my point is that every congregation, even UU ones, are different. Isn't there another UU congregation near you? I don't know whether it would be more intellectually stimulating, as it's been YEARS since I visited it [but I'm pretty sure that's where I learned about CSAs].

 

How much longer is your husband president?

Yeah, I think this is a good assessment. So I guess the moral is that if you want to maintain a strong connection with a particular church as an institution, the only way to do it is to get yourself placed on the ministerial search committee every time there's a change of leadership. ;)

 

I don't know if this minister is less popular than others or if I'm just more aware of factions in the church because my husband is the president, but there are a number of people who don't like him and who are playing church politics about it in a nasty way. Even though I don't like him either, that whole dynamic makes me feel even less like being there.

 

Politics suck. There was some of that going on when our last minister stepped down. Or I should say, that caused our last minister to step down. I didn't care for her preaching style, but she is/was a very nice person and didn't deserve that treatment. :(

[Amy in NH]

Have you looked at any of the resources through the Church of the Larger Fellowship to see if there's anything there that might help with the intellectual stimulation part? http://clf.uua.org/

 

Thank you for this! The Quest podcasts were very nice.

[Joanne]

My top three matches are:

 

1. UU (100%)

2. Secular Humanism (95%) - And, although I understand why the quiz results say that, it's not even close.

3. Liberal Quakers (90%)

 

Every few years, when I get frustrated with UU, I do this quiz. I'm always hoping it will tell me I have some other, better option.

 

I did this recently and came up with:

 

1. Reformed Jew

2. UU

3. Neo-pagan

 

I feel like I should be a part of this thread, but as a woman attending a church I pretty much *hate* the theology of, and looking to fine a UU church, I feel out of place.

 

I am thinking of starting a spin off, though, about *writing* a liberal bible study. :D

[Rivka]

Tell you what: Let's make a pact to try this on Sunday? [..]

 

So, let's do it. This Sunday, I'll go to the UCC and you go to the Episcopal church. Then, we'll compare notes here, okay?

 

Jenny, did you go?

 

I tried the 9am "choral Eucharist" service at an Episcopal church, and I really disliked it. It was a painfully suburban congregation, and the sermon, which was nominally about how Jesus reacted to his increasing fame, was mostly about all the famous people the minister met when he was helping run charity golf tournaments. :glare: The whole experience just felt... spiritless.

 

So now I know some more things. I am not looking for celebrity golf stories :tongue_smilie:, and I am looking for a church with an urban mission.

[justamouse]

Jenny, did you go?

 

I tried the 9am "choral Eucharist" service at an Episcopal church, and I really disliked it. It was a painfully suburban congregation, and the sermon, which was nominally about how Jesus reacted to his increasing fame, was mostly about all the famous people the minister met when he was helping run charity golf tournaments. :glare: The whole experience just felt... spiritless.

 

So now I know some more things. I am not looking for celebrity golf stories :tongue_smilie:, and I am looking for a church with an urban mission.

 

How about if you work it backwards? We have a county food bank that ALL of the churches help with and they serve I think two meals a day and are in constant need of help. If you have something like that, how about volunteering, and then seeing who belongs where and if perhaps you align with one more than the other?

[catz]

I'm a tiny bit surprised to hear so many people say they have found UU churches to be anti-Christian.... not surprised in a "I don't believe you way", just a "I'm glad that hasn't been my experience" way. Our minister often cites Biblical verses as supporting her points, she sometimes uses "God" and "amen", and she openly admires Jesus. Last fall she did a sermon on the book, "Love Wins" by the evangelical Christian minister Rob Bell. She is openly agnostic, but I don't find her anti-Christian.

 

I guess my point is that every congregation, even UU ones, are different. Isn't there another UU congregation near you? I don't know whether it would be more intellectually stimulating, as it's been YEARS since I visited it [but I'm pretty sure that's where I learned about CSAs].

 

How much longer is your husband president?

 

:iagree: Our UU church isn't anti-Christian (or anti any religion). We regularly partner with other churches on projects. The have services at Easter and Christian for people that specifically lean Christian (but have a similar service for Ramadan and have had full Passover dinners too). I will say there are certain PEOPLE in the church that are anti-Christian, but that's definitely not the overriding culture. Anyway, that would be a huge turn off for me too if that's the culture. When we travel we try to visit UU churches and there is are many variables that make up a UU church. So few of them look the same.

[Starr]

Jenny, did you go?

 

I tried the 9am "choral Eucharist" service at an Episcopal church, and I really disliked it. It was a painfully suburban congregation, and the sermon, which was nominally about how Jesus reacted to his increasing fame, was mostly about all the famous people the minister met when he was helping run charity golf tournaments. :glare: The whole experience just felt... spiritless.

 

So now I know some more things. I am not looking for celebrity golf stories :tongue_smilie:, and I am looking for a church with an urban mission.

 

I knew a priest that preached well but ofter her sermon illustrations were the ever, user friendly, ballet vignette. :lol:

 

I think you could find out a lot about outreach in a church's website. Are you near an urban area? That might help as well.

[KarenNC]

So now I know some more things. I am not looking for celebrity golf stories :tongue_smilie:, and I am looking for a church with an urban mission.

 

Sorry it wasn't what you had hoped. Maybe he had an off-Sunday. Is he the rector? I suppose it would be too much to hope that he was just a fill-in or an associate that didn't preach regularly.

 

Out of curiosity, what do you see as the difference between an urban mission and a suburban one? How was the congregation "painfully suburban?" I have an idea, but would like to hear more so that I know I am understanding what you mean.

[Elizabeth in MN]

Jenny, did you go?

 

I tried the 9am "choral Eucharist" service at an Episcopal church, and I really disliked it. It was a painfully suburban congregation, and the sermon, which was nominally about how Jesus reacted to his increasing fame, was mostly about all the famous people the minister met when he was helping run charity golf tournaments. :glare: The whole experience just felt... spiritless.

 

So now I know some more things. I am not looking for celebrity golf stories :tongue_smilie:, and I am looking for a church with an urban mission.

 

Oh honey, no no. You found one of the rich Episcopal churches. Donuts to dollars it was High Church to boot. No, I think you'd be happiest with a Low Church, one with a social activism agenda? When my Mom wakes up I'll ask her if she knows of one. She did her field training at St Anne's so she might know.

[ktgrok]

Oh honey, no no. You found one of the rich Episcopal churches. Donuts to dollars it was High Church to boot. No, I think you'd be happiest with a Low Church, one with a social activism agenda? When my Mom wakes up I'll ask her if she knows of one. She did her field training at St Anne's so she might know.

 

Agreed...sounds like she found one filled with the "frozen chosen".

[Jenny in Florida]

Jenny, did you go?

 

I tried the 9am "choral Eucharist" service at an Episcopal church, and I really disliked it. It was a painfully suburban congregation, and the sermon, which was nominally about how Jesus reacted to his increasing fame, was mostly about all the famous people the minister met when he was helping run charity golf tournaments. :glare: The whole experience just felt... spiritless.

 

So now I know some more things. I am not looking for celebrity golf stories :tongue_smilie:, and I am looking for a church with an urban mission.

 

Yep, I did.

 

I'm still digesting my experience. There were things I really, really loved. It was so nice to have good music and lots of it. Especially after I ran back home and sneaked into the service at the UU church and had to listen to our choir ruin a rather simple John Rutter piece, I realized that good music is a big part of my joy in attending church.

 

The people were nice and welcoming. The santuary is lovely. The minister was charming and funny and thoughtful. I liked that they list on their website ahead of time the Bible sources that will be discussed in the sermon. Since I don't have a Christian background and my Bible knowledge is limited to what I've taught in RE over the years (and what I've learned from rock musicals), I appreciated the opportunity to look up and read the verses last night. I did think it gave me more to chew on while listening to the sermon.

 

This church makes a real effort to be welcoming and to accept and appreciate diversity. They have statements to that effect all over their order of service and website and welcome materials. They also do a lot of outreach to assorted good local organizations and seem to be very focused on social justice, which is also a big deal to me.

 

Here's the thing (and it's going to sound silly, given that I knew up front I was going to a Christian church): It was just a little too much Jesus for me. When I started church shopping in my early 20s, I was still leaning much more toward athiesm, rather than agnosticism. One of the things I connected with at the UU churches was that no one expected me to say words or pretend to believe in things with which I was not comfortable. Over the years, though, I've mellowed a lot. My beliefs have tiptoed closer to the idea of there being something called "God," although I haven't yet found a specific conception of that being or force or whatever that resonates with my heart. And I've come to an appreciation for the story of Jesus, despite the fact that I don't feel convinced of the divine aspects of it. (I'm trying to be respectful of the more traditional members of the boards.) I'm wrestling with the idea of approaching Jesus as a kind of touchstone or metaphor, if that makes any sense.

 

My daughter kept telling me that wasn't going to work at a Christian church. And, if my experience this morning is any guide, she's right. I did fine with much of the service. It was thought provoking and beautiful and really nice. The prayers were accessible for me. But there were a couple of hymns that made me squirm a bit. The one they sang last, in particular, which was all about Jesus drawing us nearer to the cross where he died and kept talking about the blood . . . I'm just not there with the congregation on that part.

 

And I was amused that the children's part of the service was all about Michelle Obama and her Let's Move program. Apparently, their most recent VBS was themed around that initiative, too. But then, the education minister kept stressing that the reason we should keep our bodies healthy is because they are temples for God. That felt rather jarring to me.

 

I also couldn't help noticing that, as much as they talked about diversity, there wasn't a single non-caucasian face in the crowd. (Okay, I think there was one little boy who might have been Hispanic.) I didn't see any same-sex couples, as I would at the UU church.

 

It was a worthy experiment. I may even go back another time or two to make sure I've got a good feel for it. But I don't think I've found home yet.

 

I'm making a mental list of other places to visit in the next few weeks. Are you going to try again somewhere else, Rivka?

Edited February 12, 2012 by Jenny in Florida

[Rivka]

I think you could find out a lot about outreach in a church's website. Are you near an urban area? That might help as well.

 

Yes, we live in Baltimore. My current UU church is right downtown, and we often have, for example, homeless people coming in off the street to hear the service. Our neighborhood is near the edge of the city, and this church was even further out - across the city line into the suburbs. I think the difference was too big a leap - I'm sure a downtown Episcopal church would have a different feel.

 

Sorry it wasn't what you had hoped. Maybe he had an off-Sunday. Is he the rector? I suppose it would be too much to hope that he was just a fill-in or an associate that didn't preach regularly.

 

He was the ...Deacon? From context, I think he was what I would think of as an "associate pastor." Deacon meant something different in the church I grew up in.

 

Out of curiosity, what do you see as the difference between an urban mission and a suburban one? How was the congregation "painfully suburban?" I have an idea, but would like to hear more so that I know I am understanding what you mean.

 

Well, everyone was white, and from appearance cues everyone seemed to be pretty well-off. There were lots of older couples and some married couples with kids. I'm guessing that more families attend the 11am service. I didn't see any younger adults, any people who were obviously single, any gay couples or families, any people of color, or anyone who looked poor.

 

I'm looking for more diversity in a congregation, and also more of a sense of engagement in the needs and problems of the city reflected in the sermons, prayers, and/or announcements.

 

I'm still digesting my experience. There were things I really, really loved. It was so nice to have good music and lots of it. Especially after I ran back home and sneaked into the service at the UU church and had to listen to our choir ruin a rather simple John Rutter piece, I realized that good music is a big part of my joy in attending church.

 

That was one thing I did really like about the church I tried - the choir did an absolutely lovely anthem, with complex harmonies.

 

Here's the thing (and it's going to sound silly, given that I knew up front I was going to a Christian church): It was just a little too much Jesus for me. When I started church shopping in my early 20s, I was still leaning much more toward athiesm, rather than agnosticism. One of the things I connected with at the UU churches was that no one expected me to say words or pretend to believe in things with which I was not comfortable.

 

I get exactly what you mean. Even though I was curious to try out something a little more definite, I still felt weird about how baldly they assumed that everyone there believed the same thing, and that it was okay to expect people to profess belief. ;) I think that's going to take time for a couple of UUs like us to get used to.

 

I'm making a mental list of other places to visit in the next few weeks. Are you going to try again somewhere else, Rivka?

 

I am, but probably not right away. When I went to the UU church, at coffee hour I fell into conversation with an old friend who hasn't been at church much. It turns out that she and her partner have been shopping around for someplace with more explicit spirituality, and unsurprisingly, several of the churches on my list were on their list as well. There's a Presbyterian church whose minister I heard speak at a marriage equality event, and she said that the preaching there was indeed good, but the people seemed pretty reserved and not very warm. So things like that.

 

It was interesting to hear her assessment of some of the churches I've been considering. She said that they know a UCC minister who is trying to get a new church started, very focused on social justice. I'm hoping to hear more about that.

[StephanieZ]

At an Episcopal church, if you didn't hear the PRIEST (or one of the priests, if there are more than one), then you didn't hear a full-fledged sermon, IMHO.

 

Deacons are NOT priests, they are trained lay-people, who assist the priest(s), and can fill in for some aspects, but they have much less training and expertise than a priest. If you are going to go back, or to visit another Episcopal congregation, try to make sure you go to a service when the main priest is doing the sermon. You'll get a much more significant view into the mission and leadership of the congregation.

 

Good luck trying again!

[KarenNC]

At an Episcopal church, if you didn't hear the PRIEST (or one of the priests, if there are more than one), then you didn't hear a full-fledged sermon, IMHO.

 

Deacons are NOT priests, they are trained lay-people, who assist the priest(s), and can fill in for some aspects, but they have much less training and expertise than a priest. If you are going to go back, or to visit another Episcopal congregation, try to make sure you go to a service when the main priest is doing the sermon. You'll get a much more significant view into the mission and leadership of the congregation.

 

Good luck trying again!

 

Deacons aren't priests but they are ordained (in the Episcopal Church, totally different animal in most Protestant churches) rather than just trained lay-people. http://www.episcopalatlanta.org/content/for_deacons_only_1.asp I would expect that the deacon was doing a fill-in sermon, but it sounds like that's not the only issue Rivka found. :) A bit ironically, in the Episcopal church we attended, the deacon tended to be the office most involved in social justice, outreach to the poor, etc.

[KarenNC]

Yes, we live in Baltimore. My current UU church is right downtown, and we often have, for example, homeless people coming in off the street to hear the service. Our neighborhood is near the edge of the city, and this church was even further out - across the city line into the suburbs. I think the difference was too big a leap - I'm sure a downtown Episcopal church would have a different feel.

 

I wondered about that. You will probably need to be looking more toward downtown. It seems like that difference between churches in urban areas vs. suburban crosses denominational lines. Doesn't mean those in smaller towns or suburbs aren't interested in social justice, just that it's not usually so immediate as a part of the day to day life of the congregation.

 

Well, everyone was white, and from appearance cues everyone seemed to be pretty well-off. There were lots of older couples and some married couples with kids. I'm guessing that more families attend the 11am service. I didn't see any younger adults, any people who were obviously single, any gay couples or families, any people of color, or anyone who looked poor.

 

I'm looking for more diversity in a congregation, and also more of a sense of engagement in the needs and problems of the city reflected in the sermons, prayers, and/or announcements.

 

Something I've seen around here is that most Protestant churches are much more closely tied to the demographics of their neighborhood than UU ones, since there are so many more options for Protestants within their chosen denomination. Outside of the Northeast, UU churches seem rather few and far between, so they are more regional churches, drawing from a much wider geographical area. The same area may have any number of Episcopal, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc churches from which to choose so folks are more likely to go to one close to home because of convenience. The later service has also usually been the "main" service in churches where they have more than one, so, yes, the congregation at that time would likely be more representative, but if that's the service you would be attending regularly, it won't really make a lot of difference who's at the later one.

 

That was one thing I did really like about the church I tried - the choir did an absolutely lovely anthem, with complex harmonies.

 

I really empathize with you on that one. The liturgy is the thing I miss the most. I would be happy to have Gregorian chant all the time, but that's highly unlikely in our UU church with the pickup choir and part-time director, compared to the Episcopal choir with the full-time director who also does an area-wide touring boys' choir, great organ, most of the singers are trained vocalists, and a totally different musical heritage. ;) It's one of the reasons my husband has stayed involved with the choir at the Reform Jewish synagogue for 15 years even though we didn't convert. The UU church is never going to fill that musical need for him.

 

I get exactly what you mean. Even though I was curious to try out something a little more definite, I still felt weird about how baldly they assumed that everyone there believed the same thing, and that it was okay to expect people to profess belief. ;) I think that's going to take time for a couple of UUs like us to get used to.

 

As much as I love the music and the liturgy (being a medievalist at heart), I have tried going back to the Episcopal Church, but I just couldn't get past saying things that I just flat cannot believe. It would really make life overall just so much simpler to be able to say we belonged to a Christian church (or even the Jewish synagogue). That said, there is certainly a whole lot more variability in the pew in terms of theology than is officially stated, in my experience.

 

Good luck with the UCC church. Sounds promising, but startups are a huge commitment in terms of work and involvement, so be aware.

[Farrar]

 

I'm still digesting my experience. There were things I really, really loved. It was so nice to have good music and lots of it. Especially after I ran back home and sneaked into the service at the UU church and had to listen to our choir ruin a rather simple John Rutter piece, I realized that good music is a big part of my joy in attending church.

 

This is my least favorite thing about the UU's. I like the music at my church - they do a lot of a capella style spirituals with some amazing harmonies. And occasionally they do something that brings the house down with full bands. There are a few great soloists in our choir. But if they try to tackle something more traditional, it can be nigh on painful to listen to. And when I've gone to other UU churches, the music has been a terrible turn off. One time we went to my in-laws' UU church and the main piece of music was the co-minister singing a Dar Williams song solo while someone played guitar. I felt like I was in a college coffeehouse and had to suppress a fit of giggles. And having grown up singing, as my mother would put it, all those good Wesleyan hymns, some of the places where they'd changed the lyrics just render things unsingable for me.

 

I'm sorry your high church experience was a bust, Rivka. When I was a kid, my mother worked for a little while at a church where the minister was always referencing people higher up in the larger church which he knew... which was especially silly because it's not like anyone in the congregation had ever heard of them or cared. It was like he was brown-nosing via sermon.