Dog rescue....please help...

[Pamela H in Texas]

So we walked into pet smart to get my dog a greenie (and I figured we'd probably pick up something else). There was a dog rescue. We immediately were drawn to a border collie mix, beautiful tri-color, 1½ year old dog.

 

We walk around PetSmart with him and he is AWESOME. He's friendly, fairly calm considering breed/age, does well with various dogs. We walked around with, sat down with, took him outside for quite awhile. I messed with his ears and between his toes. My little one was dancing around close to him (btw, he was amazing with the littlest and I was thinking he may be good "therapy" for him). We *really* liked this dog. My hubby said I could do what I wanted (he's supposedly not an animal person though all animals we get end up being HIS). I came home, got my dog and other children, and went back up there. We spent another long period of time walking around, sitting around, etc. My lhasa was a bit annoyed when he sniffed her rear (how rude! LOL) and tried to get her to play (pawed her, rolled over, making silly sounds). But they were within a foot of each other most of the time and were okay.

 

We took three hours "testing" this dog. We wanted it to be perfect for him and us.

 

<snip>

 

However, we got home and he gained a good deal of energy, no issue there. And he's pretty mouthy with the kids (but redirectable). I was taken aback by the sheer degree of it though. He did it constantly and it was much more than nipping ankles. Of course, he didn't bite down at all either which helped as he didn't hurt anyone. But the mouthy-ness was pervasive if anyone ran AT ALL. And my lhasa wants nothing to do with him. She's stressed and he won't quit trying to engage her. Will he eat her if she snips at him? And she WILL. She has even gotten in tiffs with my mom's dogs who are her size, but she doesn't like her rear sniffed and she doesn't like to play as much as many dogs. And then when he was eating, he lunged at, snarling and growling, at my lhasa even though she hadn't gotten any closer to him. He was on a leash so hubby corrected him firmly. But it was very scary. THis is the part to worry about most I think.

 

<snip a ton more>

 

Is this fixable? Reasonable to try with OUR circumstances (adopting the littles, pretty full life, etc)?

 

ETA: Putting it this way rather than my long version, it doesn't seem as bad. I think we'll push through a few days, working hard with him.

 

And hope. He is such a fine dog in so many ways. I really LOVED jogging with him! Even though he doesn't WALK on a leash very well, he jogged on it BEAUTIFULLY.

Edited January 29, 2012 by 2J5M9K
Shortening story considerably

[QuirkyKapers]

Was there a time period the rescue gave you that you could try him out?

 

We were told it would take several weeks until our dog would settle in. So, maybe give it a couple weeks and see if the behavior changes. :grouphug:

[frugalmama]

I'd call the rescue group and give them a head's up as to what's going on. If they don't act surprised, this may have happened before when they previously tried to adopt him out.

 

Also - I don't know about where you are, but here most rescue dogs get free dog school classes from petsmart - maybe that will help?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Rehoming a dog is not the same as disrupting a placement with a child. It isn't because dog's aren't kids. Yes, if you had the dog for years, then rehoming him could be hard but you have only had him for hours.

 

It sounds like he would need some work to really make your home safe for him and safe for the kids. Do you really have the time and energy to do that? I'm concerned because understandably you've talked about being stretched to your limits at times already.

[Shellydon]

We have a 1/2 Border Collie 1/2 Blue Heeler. I have found herding dogs to be very mouthy. They not only herd the kids by nipping at their heels/calfs, they jump up and nip/bite at the kids arms and sides. I think this is primarily instinct and not aggression but it is an issue. We have handled this by teaching our children to discipline the dog when she starts the behavior. We do put her up when other children come over though. More then 4 kids running through the back yard puts her into overload - they must all look like sheep:D She has bitten hard once, causing two canine tooth sized holes in a child's calf ( a cousin) - she was going for the pinata that was swinging wildly and finally dropping to the ground and missed and got his calf. It wasn't intentional, but she is easily overstimulated and we now just kennel her when company is over.

 

So-- I would say unless your kid's are strong willed and willing to be a dominant figure over the dog, he isn't going to work in your house.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I guess where I am is thinking he is such an awesome dog. I think if it were still just my big kids and hubby and me, we'd keep him EASILY and love every minute of it. He's so loving and, though not trained, well behaved. He seems so smart and I LOVED jogging with him!

 

I even think the kid thing is over-come-able. We kinda practiced with it and he came along a little. C is able to stop him now. And the dog is so smart he'd probably get that mouthing isn't allowed pretty easily. I think he will learn they rule (and he drools).

 

I don't know about my other dog though. She's gotten in a couple tiffs with my moms dogs during visits. But my mom's dogs are her size. But all sorts of people bring new dogs into the home and the dogs figure it out in time and with discipline.

 

And I don't know that I know how to deal with food aggression.

 

Jean, I'm concerned for the same reason. At this point, I feel like I have to be able to completely control him at all times because of my lhasa. Keeping a dog on a leash or carrying my lhasa around is pretty rough. And I already have three little kids on as close to 100% supervision as we can get because of their own issues.

 

I figured I'm stuck until Monday at this point. That will give us some time to work with the dogs and see if they come around at all. And the kids and I can keep working with him regarding the mouthing. And we'll deal with the full time supervision. Plenty of exercise and leashed in the house will help. Also, after about 2 minutes, he was fine outside for awhile also (I tend to think of dogs as inside creatures, but obviously some breeds need a little more outside time).

 

Maybe it'll seem, by Monday, so do-able. Or maybe it'll seem impossible.

 

If I do give him back (I wish it weren't something to consider), I am going to ask that they be forward with the next people. He so deserves a great family.

Edited January 29, 2012 by 2J5M9K

[Susan in KY]

I'd send him back in a heartbeat. He's an animal, not a child. Those behaviors are unacceptable with your situation. You'll have enough on your plate to worry about without retraining him, too.

[lmrich]

Talk to the rescue and see why he was given up in the first place. Some dogs tend to show aggression toward other dogs and do best as the one and only dog. He is still a great dog; he just may not be your great dog.

[bettyandbob]

we had to return a dog who was totally awesome at a Petsmart type rescue meet. We needed a really calm dog and he was perfect. The rescue group didn't have try outs like you've been permitted. We went through the whole adoption before bringing him home. We got home and the dog started to push around my youngest (who has down syndrome). We did obedience training. Towards the end of the training the trainer said the dog had serious issues and we would not be able to keep him. But we kept trying. We contacted the rescue and asked what they would suggest to do. They never responded. A few months later the dog tried to bite one of my neighbors --second time. dh contacted the rescue and brought him to one of their homes.

 

About a month later we got a phone call from a woman who said she found our phone number and some of the vet paper work with the dog she just got from a rescue. She wanted to know more about this dog. We were quite surprised that the rescue had not told her the dog had special issues. She described all the behaviors that made us take him back. I can't believe the rescue turned around and put him out to adopt so quickly.

 

Our vet hooked us up with a rescue she likes and we now have a somewhat hyper/anxious, but definitely not dangerous threatening dog. And the dog and my little boy get along well which was the goal.

 

So, I think you should be cautious. I think you she ask your vet what rescues he/she thinks are good in your area. Based on our experience, I think there are differences in rescues and you need to check up on the rescue before you adopt.

[Ottakee]

How long has he been fixed? HOw much exercise has he gotten recently? This breed likely needs a lot of outside exercise time.

 

We have an Australian Shepherd mix and she is WONDERFUL but she gets tons of outside time with me in the barn and running with the horses and cats, etc. each day.

 

The adopting the littles though makes this tougher.

 

Ours is also a rescue and was super timid when she came. She wouldn't even come in the house for weeks........she was the rare rescue that they adopted as an OUTDOOR FARM dog......who now sleeps in my bedroom and is asleep at my feet right now.

 

I would certainly call on Monday. Also, some dogs just do better as an only dog with an active family.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Betty, just to be clear. We do NOT have a try-out. If we send him back (and our only option is to give him back to them), we lose our adoption fee and would not be allowed to adopt through them again. Though I understand in some ways, I think that is wrong. It makes a lot more sense for people to return a dog within two weeks than to keep a dog that is a poor fit which could lead to other issues with/for the dog.

[Catwoman]

Talk to the rescue and see why he was given up in the first place.

 

:iagree:

 

But please remember that he has only been in your home for a matter of hours, so you really can't judge his behavior for at least several days. He might have been aggressive with your other dog because he was nervous about being in his new home.

 

OTOH, I would not leave him alone with your kids or with your other dog at all. Not even for a minute.

 

He sounds like a great dog who was just really excited to be in a new place, and was trying to let his new flock know who was the boss. Obviously, you have to let him know that you're in charge, but you can't accomplish that in a few hours.

 

Oh, and we need pictures. :D

[LucyStoner]

About a month later we got a phone call from a woman who said she found our phone number and some of the vet paper work with the dog she just got from a rescue. She wanted to know more about this dog. We were quite surprised that the rescue had not told her the dog had special issues. She described all the behaviors that made us take him back. I can't believe the rescue turned around and put him out to adopt so quickly.

 

 

That is really awful of them to not disclose the issues to her first. They very well may have done the same thing to you.

[Pamela H in Texas]

He's so tired.

[WillametteMom]

He's a beauty! Pamela, how much outdoor time/exercise will he get? I have a border collie mix and he really needs a LOT of outdoor time. My friends with border collie mixes have had similar experiences. Mine is just now beginning to be able to relax indoors for any length of time at 4 years old. At 1.5 yo he never stopped moving!

[Teachin'Mine]

Overall, he sounds like a great dog. If you could get a personal trainer to work with all of you at home, it would be great. As you've noted, he's obviously very smart, so that will work in his favor. If it does work out, I can picture him spending a good amount of time trying to herd your lhasa. :)

 

Oh he's beautiful!!!!!!!

[Pamela H in Texas]

WillametteMom, a few hours between walks/jogs/runs and the backyard, though probably a little less in February, our one cold month per year...lol.

 

I don't like the idea of him herding Josie. AT. ALL. She says she doesn't either. LOL

[Teachin'Mine]

WillametteMom, a few hours between walks/jogs/runs and the backyard, though probably a little less in February, our one cold month per year...lol.

 

I don't like the idea of him herding Josie. AT. ALL. She says she doesn't either. LOL

:lol:

[Danestress]

Leerburg.com could help you pick the least intrusive, most comfortable muzzle. He could still drink and pant with the right kind. You might consider that for when he is outside.

[Paz]

We have a border collie mix who had some food aggression issues. We were told to feed her in her crate away from the other dog and rest of the family members.

[SonshineLearner]

For the food agression part, I've heard that you should add good treats to the bowl. So, maybe small piece of hot dog.... First time you're doing it, just make sure that you add a piece as he's looking.... and just always slip in some good pieces. Make it so he thinks "hand coming toward bowl= treats".... And then you have to be careful to have your older kids give rope toys etc... and take them back.... and give treats... :) I fed my pup for a whole month because the spot I got them from said the family who brought him back... said he was food agressive. For us it wasn't and isn't true....

I also kept him leashed to me for a long time. And leashed around my cat for a month. :)

[J-rap]

Wow, he sounds like he is potentially a really nice pet... but given your circumstances -- and tempting as it is to keep him -- I think I'd send him back. Sure, maybe with a personal trainer or consistent obedient classes you could retrain him, but do you have the time? Maybe if your family life were more simple I'd encourage you to keep him.

 

I personally would not be as concerned about the nipping issue (that's more out of playfulness/herding instinct); it's the food issue/aggression to your smaller dog that would make my heart skip a beat. Our last dog was a collie, and was he ever a nipper when the kids were outside playing! But it was always gentle -- I never really had to worry that he would hurt any of the children (not that that made it okay). Eventually, we were able to train him out of it, but probably not until he was at least two.

 

I love dogs, and am so tempted myself to get another one. But given my own circumstances, I have to constantly remind myself that now just isn't the right time. :( I really, really miss having a dog!

 

Anyway, just a suggestion. If nothing else, you could call the agency and explain your situation... Maybe they'll understand and break their own regulations and let you have a few days to try him out??

[Catwoman]

Wow, he's so cute!!! :001_wub:

 

I hope you'll be able to give him a chance to fit in to your family (but again, always with safety in mind.)

[Pamela H in Texas]

Thanks y'all.

 

My son (the 16yr old) has really taken to him (the rest like him too). He was appalled when he came home last night that we were already considering giving him up. I told him that he didn't see what happened.

 

With a little time, I really think the issues with the little kids isn't so much of an issue. I think we can definitely work around it, especially when he responded so well to C (who is in the 3rd percentile so tiny) telling him to stop. He slept in 16yr old's room last night. I still didn't sleep well because I was worried how the dog would react to the alarm we have to keep the littles safe. I will work with the dog about that today so he knows about it for tonight.

 

I'm *really* worried about if he'll hurt my little dog if my little dog is ugly with him (and she will be if he starts trying to play or even sniff her rear). We are just going to have to let him have free-er reign but still on a leash so we can control him to see what happens, I think.

 

So the worst issue seems to be the food. Like someone said above, it could simply be that he had been here such a short time. He also may really respond to some work. And if not, we can feed the dogs separately (we do leave food down for our lhasa, but we don't HAVE to. We didn't with our other). We did actually have a food aggressive dog before. I think the help was that she was smaller and didn't actually attack the other animal (because that would have meant leaving the food).

 

I'm feeling positive about working with him today.

[Mary in VA]

I'd send him back in a heartbeat. He's an animal, not a child. Those behaviors are unacceptable with your situation. You'll have enough on your plate to worry about without retraining him, too.

:iagree:We have rescued two Westies who have been fabulous!. We LOVE Westies.:001_smile: In between the two we fostered one with the intent to adopt. On the first evening with us she growled at both my dh and dds (12 and 8 at the time) We knew she had issues in her old home with the other Westie, but she wanted to be the alpha in our house with the kids. She was back with the rescue at the first opportunity. I didn't want to have to worry about her with our kids or any guests in the future.

 

There may we a wonderful dog out there for you that you don't have to worry about with the kids. Five months after we returned that Westie (and she got a great home with a couple without kids) we got our Annie and have had her for almost nine years. She is the most loving, sweet dog and we would have missed her if we had kept the other one!!

 

Mary

[southernm]

It may be your fault and not the dog's. Bringing home a new dog while there is also another one in the house can require some patience and time. Most people recommend crating the new dog for awhile so that it understands that old dog was there first therefore in charge. Here's a link I found after a quick search: http://leerburg.com/introducingdogs.htm

[beaners]

Betty, just to be clear. We do NOT have a try-out. If we send him back (and our only option is to give him back to them), we lose our adoption fee and would not be allowed to adopt through them again. Though I understand in some ways, I think that is wrong. It makes a lot more sense for people to return a dog within two weeks than to keep a dog that is a poor fit which could lead to other issues with/for the dog.

 

Whether or not you decide to keep the dog, I would definitely speak to the group about this. I think it is a terrible idea to not have a grace period during which you can bring the dog back without consequence. Even if they only returned a portion of your money or allowed you to "exchange" the dog for one that would better fit your family or didn't hold returning after a short period against you for future adoptions. What they are doing is making it more likely for a family to keep a potentially dangerous animal (not that your dog is, I don't know that) and opening themselves up to liability for adopting out an animal that could later harm someone.

 

I'm upset about this for your sake and for the sake of these animals. What if someone else ends up with an animal they don't feel they can properly care for, and they keep that animal because of the consequences and lack of grace period? Is that dog going to spend its life in a crate? Put to sleep after harming another animal or heaven forbid a child? All because the family didn't feel they could reasonably return the dog when they discovered they didn't have the ability to properly handle it after a very short period of time? It sounds to me like this group is more interested in passing on responsibility for these animals than finding good homes where both the pet and family are a good fit.

[laundrycrisis]

Border Collies herd. The mouthing at the kids is herding behavior. It is his prey drive. It is going to take a lot of consistent training to get this under control. For me, this would mean the dog is either on leash, meaning a short training tab, or crated/confined to a separate room with a baby gate. I would not allow him around the kids without the training tab on. His herding behavior with the kids must be corrected every single time it happens. Especially he should not run around in the house or yard with them until he is past trying to herd them with mouthing behavior.

 

This particular prey drive is very strong in Border Collies. We have a Belgian Shepherd, with a much lower herding drive than a BC. We were able to correct his mouthy behavior very early on, as a puppy. But this dog is 11 now, and he still tries to herd me with his shoulder when I move quickly through a room. My response is to herd him right back. But he is still very much a shepherd.

 

For food aggression I would only feed the dog in a shut crate, and only adults feed the dog. No kids should be allowed near when he is eating. Adults can work with him on food aggression behaviors, but never kids. Dogs can be very reactive about this. I would discuss with a trainer how to work and correct the food aggression.

[Paz]

Another thought is that you should try to maintain your original, small dog as the alpha dog. That was the advice we were given by a trainer that came to deal with us with our border collie mix with very similar issues. Our smaller dog wanted to cower and give up power to the new dog so it was important for us to establish original dog as alpha. She gets to eat first, go out the door first when walking, going out to potty, etc.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Thanks Paz. My Lhasa is not giving up alpha. Thankfully, it seems our new guy is pretty submissive. The 3yr old is the only one he is really questioning is really over him. We are coaching him on that.

 

Dog is doing beautifully today. We will take it slow, but it looks good.

 

He needs a name. Only 16yr old likes current one. I was outvoted on the name Toby.

[WillametteMom]

So happy to read that he is doing well today! I think he looks like a Toby!

 

Please continue to keep us posted on his progress. I have a soft spot for border collies and border collie mixes. Our border collie mix is named Baxter, which is the name he came with. I didn't particularly like it at first, but it grew on me and now I can't imagine him with any other name. We shorten it to Baxi sometimes. He's a sweetheart. We have an Australian shepherd/rough collie mix too (who is every bit as sweet). They entertain each other after they tire us out! Both have always been terrific with our dc.

[Catwoman]

Thanks Paz. My Lhasa is not giving up alpha. Thankfully, it seems our new guy is pretty submissive. The 3yr old is the only one he is really questioning is really over him. We are coaching him on that.

 

Dog is doing beautifully today. We will take it slow, but it looks good.

 

He needs a name. Only 16yr old likes current one. I was outvoted on the name Toby.

 

I'm so happy to hear that he's doing better today. As you could probably tell from my previous posts, I am really rooting for him!

 

What's his current name?

 

Maybe you should start a poll asking for names... and of course we'll need more pictures... :D

[Paz]

Great to hear that he is doing so well today! I love our Ziggy and can't imagine us being without her. She is so sweet and loving and gives everyone love! Border Collies are special.

[QuirkyKapers]

I'm glad to hear things are better today.