Sputterduck Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Yeah but people here tend to be more conservative (homeschoolers) so I'm interested that they too think ignoring/ procrastinating on discussion is a good plan. Outcomes like the OP's are exactly why. Ignoring/procrastinating is not the kindest way to put it. Waiting until the child is developmentally ready is important. The outcome that the OP's children are living through is not okay and not what most of us want for our children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 When my Vietnamese daughter was only 3, (and unfortunately living in an extremely non-diverse environment) while looking at the AG catalog with big sis., she pointed to the Addy doll and said, "I don't like her. She has dark skin. She is ugly." Other daughter said, "No, she is beautiful and unique and God made us all different colors and that is what makes the world great and it is good to be different etc. etc." Younger dd said, "I don't want to be different, I want to be the same." Nobody emphasized race to the kid--she came up with this all on her own from observing what was around her. We know judging people on skin color is meaningless but that doesn't change the experiences of those who are judged and treated negatively due to racism. Very true. When people are hurt it is not meaningless, it is very sad. Skin color doesn't matter. It just is. Hurting people is horrible. I do need my child to know that differences in skin color just are. I also need him to know that judging people over meaningless things is stupid, wrong, and hurtful. I don't want him to want another skin color because race has been made a huge issue by others in his life. His skin color is just a fact, as is mine, as is everyone's. I don't want him worrying that other people are making a big deal out of it before he is old enough to shrug crap like that off and move on, and before he is old enough to understand that it is *their* issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Waiting til the child seems ready is a nice thought but you risk someone else getting there first. When you talk of things early often and matter of factly you inoculate against situations which you can neither prevent of control. Or you end up with children who wish their skin was a different color so they didn't have to keep dealing with that issue that other people are always bringing up to them, even those with good intentions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaT Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Waiting til the child seems ready is a nice thought but you risk someone else getting there first. When you talk of things early often and matter of factly you inoculate against situations which you can neither prevent of control. I agree with calandalsmom for this very reason. I'm not so sure that my dds would have told me about some things that were said to them if we had not already discussed racism. I might not have gotten the chance to reassure them and deal with the issue (especially in our extended family). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Something to remember. In the US it is possible for white people to opt out of teaching about and considering race. However, it is not possible for people of color to do so because if they don't teach their children how to deal with it, they won't have reasonable defenses ready. So opting out is a privilege that not everyone can exercise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaners Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Yeah but people here tend to be more conservative (homeschoolers) so I'm interested that they too think ignoring/ procrastinating on discussion is a good plan. We're talking about postponing some of the bad stuff until our kids are mature enough to not internalize it. There are plenty of things we can discuss about race without getting into black vs. white schools, whites-only water fountains, bus-riders going to jail for being black and tired, and MLK being shot after having the nerve to "have a dream." Basically I feel that the MLK lesson put little kids of color on the defensive, and that ain't right. Whoever designs these lessons should be aware of this effect. We are white, and I am personally putting off a lot of this specific discussion (MLK) until my children are older. I just don't see a way to reduce the complexity of the discussion without oversimplifying it and giving my children the wrong impressions. Pushing these topics back until my children aren't so literal doesn't mean we avoid talking about race. It means that we talk about how people with different colored skin are also good people, instead of talking about people spitting at little girls trying to go to school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Also, calandalsmom, no one has brought it up to my child. So far, at 7, he is proud to be Korean and proud to be Irish. Of course, if I lived in an area in the US were racism was rampant and it was likely that at 2 or 3 some kid would repeat some idiotic statement from their parents, then I would have started earlier that would be ideal for his personal development. As it is, I do live in a very racist place, but comments aren't made about skin color here. Apparently Koreans are mean, or so I'm told. Whatever. I'll deal with that as it comes. My son is proud to be exactly the mix he is. And I've taught him that. The pride in one's heritage must come before the idea that people may hate you for your heritage. And a person must be careful not to teach that pride in heritage is not taught to the point of arrogance or thinking that one is better than others because of it! That just leads to your own child being racist. Yikes. Pride in the uniqueness of where each individual comes from is what I teach. Mean people, hateful people, ignorant people... those are a different lesson. We learn about them, too, and how to deal with them. Starting off with the idea that some people are going to hate you because of your color is harmful. It has a time and place but is a terrible starting point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 Waiting til the child seems ready is a nice thought but you risk someone else getting there first. When you talk of things early often and matter of factly you inoculate against situations which you can neither prevent of control. Nice thought, but I don't know that it always works in practice with immature minds. Like I said, the most racist comments made around my kids have been by a little black girl who obviously heard them at home. She is not saying them because she's carefree about race. At age 3 she was already defensive about her race. Another black girl of the same age in the same class did not have this issue at all. And she didn't talk about race at all in preschool, either. Again, we do talk about race because we do know it's going to come up. My kids know about diversity and melanin and heredity and where they come from physically. They have heard/read about slavery (Jewish, black, and other) and Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation. They have heard/read about ignorance and low self-esteem leading to stupid actions. I've been the source of this information previously, and able to judge how much they are ready for and how they are taking it, and adjust accordingly. I think having it come from a teacher is also different from having it come from another student. They can discount something a "friend" says if it sounds stupid or hurtful. But coming from a teacher, they will give it more importance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Really? Share how you came to this conclusion? Also to the OP you should def inquire of the teacher how the topic was explored. I know several children who had to deal with that. Over-correcting makes it a huge deal in the sensitive minds of small children. Every child is different, though. Some children won't be affected and some will be extremely sensitive. This is why I think it's best for people to deal with things in a way that is best for their specific children. And, also, not based on parent's experiences necessarily, either. Sometimes parents way over-correct based on their own experiences. A good example of that is my friend who's mom used to lock her and her brothers and sisters in one room for days so she didn't have to deal with them. In raising her own children, she was so traumatized that she gave them no boundaries. She regrets that deeply now and sees that she also hurt her children, though with the best intentions. I look at my child and see *his* personality and *his* needs and *his* development and *his* environment and the risk inherent in *his* environment and proceed with what is best for him. If he was being raised in backwoods southern US where racism was all over the place, I would handle things accordingly. If we were still in a liberal/hippy/love everyone area of California, I would handle things accordingly. We are where we are. He is who he is. His development is where it is. And instead of making something a huge deal in his head very young when everything is internalized for good or for bad, regardless of good intentions or bad, I wait until the right time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 How do you know this 3 year old was "defensive" about her race? Why is it better in your mind that the other black child didnt talk about race at all? I get the feeling you have strong thoughts on black people's sense of their own history in this country. I get the impression from the post I didnt quote - in which you use words like arogance. Actually I did not use the word arrogance in any of my posts. So you are probably mixing me up with someone else. I have no problem with black people teaching their kids about black American history - no idea where you got that at all. Did you know that you can teach black history without actually pointing out every five minutes "hey, that person is black, isn't that amazing"? I'm just saying that if you tell a little black kid that Americans by and large think he's ugly, stupid, lazy, immoral, and deserving of only second-best, that's not really a great place to start building his self-esteem. As for how do I know this child was defensive - because she spoke of black vs. white and black/white people can't do X and so on. This child is also a rather combative child relative to the others (of all colors) in the class. As for the other black girl not speaking of race, since her parents are both black professionals and she's very intelligent, I'm sure she has some awareness of race. But she does not have a chip on her shoulder (she just turned 5). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 when people make comments like the bolded about others it always makes me wonder what their deal is. How do you know this 3 year old was "defensive" about her race? Why is it better in your mind that the other black child didnt talk about race at all? I get the feeling you have strong thoughts on black people's sense of their own history in this country. I get the impression from the post I didnt quote - in which you use words like arogance. Im also going to note that an asian child's experience with racism, while no less significant, is probably very different than a black child's. I don't think anyone minds anyone talking about race! My son walks around telling people he is half Korean/half Irish. If a child walks around telling people that she is half African/a quarter Chinese/ and a quarter Cherokee, more power to the little one. It's the idea of "People will hate me because my skin is dark" that a 3 year old doesn't need to walk around thinking. Have you ever heard a small child say "She hates me because I'm black." after another child didn't want to play with her because the child was sick and in a bad mood and didn't want to play with anyone, not just the black child? I have. I know kids who are oversensitive and think everything almost negative interaction boils down to race. It is not fair to a child to have to feel like that all the time. My exH grew up with "They hate me/don't want to play with me/dont' want me around/think I'm ugly because I'm Korean." Most of it, but certainly not all, was in his head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 Im also going to note that an asian child's experience with racism, while no less significant, is probably very different than a black child's. True, but MLK Day lessons talk about white and brown/black. It does kinda leave out those who are neither white nor black, as is the case with my kids, but obviously they take away a message regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 I should note that my concern is not only for my kids' self-esteem, but also that they too might jump on the bandwagon of acting/feeling superior to blacks or to people darker than they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 bolded- strawman nice character assassination of a 5 yr old you have going on here. does it feel good to tear down a baby like that? Or is it really her parents you are attacking? OK, so now calling a child "defensive" is a character assassination? Really? I'm not sure this conversation is going anywhere good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 I think where we're headed with a few people in this discussion is straight to the attitude that black/ korean/insert race here isnt actually maligned but they think they are and use it as a convenient excuse to fail. Its a fairly typical conservative assessment of american culture and Im not surprised that's the direction some of you want to go. This is a beautiful example of prejudice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 But I think my point is that no one is suggesting we should be inculcating kids with the idea that they actually are inferior to anyone else. Rather we should be firmly showing our kids of any color that they are capable and proud people who can accomplish as much as they are willing to work for in spite of some lingering bad attitudes. And that for some, more opportunities are available now because of brave and hard working and upstanding men like Dr King. I think we agree with this. The only question is the timing / presentation of the "bad stuff." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) A 5 year old described as combative, defensive, and who speaks of race is hardly a glowing portrayal as when compared with the other black girl who apparently is a child of professional parents who minds her manners. I was making a point that the parents' exposing this child to negative racial comments does not appear to have ensured her self-esteem upon being in a diverse environment. If anything, it has hurt her. Yes, that is my opinion. I am sure her family had the best intentions of preparing her for the "real world." But I don't agree with their method. My point about the other girl is that it's practically impossible that she is ignorant of race. You can teach your kid about race without putting her on the defensive, is my point. And since nobody knows who I'm even talking about, that is hardly a character assassination. But you are prejudiced against conservatives, so obviously you are going to misinterpret my intent. Edited January 21, 2012 by SKL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 What do you mean by over correcting? What on earth are you on about with locking children in rooms and no boundaries at all? We are talking about speaking with your child about skin color, acknowledging that, and trying to build a sense of identity which is based on more than JUST the color of the skin but includes a love of the color of their skin. Things like reading books with characters your child might identify with would be part of that. things like making sure your child's community includes role models who look like him or her in addition to everyone else may be part of that. things like (if your child is adopted from say China) learning chinese, or celebrating some cinese holidays or learning about the culture of China... Things like making sure you know how to do your black daughter's hair, things like eradicating racist comments or racist jokes from your interaction with your extended family... (we cant be the only ones for whom this exists). I dont even understand why locking people in rooms is part of this discusion. It was an example of something I see all the time. Over-correcting as a parent because of one's own experiences. That does happen in certain families, that I have personally known, in race issues. The over the top teaching to a child about how they *might* be treated once they go to school years before they even go to school. By the time the child gets to school they are expecting to be treated terribly by anyone and everyone, and once they do have a negative interaction they *assume* seemingly out of the blue it's due to race. I've seen some shocking examples. However, I'm not saying anyone here is doing that. It's just relevant to the discussion based on parents I've known. Great intentions they may have had, but they made their children paranoid and it's very hard to undo that when it's done at such a young age. Most of those parents grew up in very hard racial times, or in racist families and were treated like dirt. Yet, the world their children are growing up in is very different. And, no, not every place is different, yet. There are some places where you are very right to be paranoid. I don't teach my son directly about skin color. It's a meaningless thing on which to build meaning. I do teach him about his heritage. I teach him to love that. I also teach him to love other cultures. There are no Korean or Irish rolemodels here in my child's community. There aren't even really any white or asian rolemodels in his community. Oh well. That doesn't bother me or him at all. Fortunately there isn't a racist bone in any of my extended family anymore. It used to be bad in my family in Mississippi (my grandma's siblings) but that was before my time and I've only met them twice in my life. All the siblings have died, except for one who is not in any way racist, and thankfully their children and grandchildren and great-grand children are up with modern sensibilities. We went their this year and didn't here one weird comment from anybody about any race. Apparently things used to be said at family reunions like, "Well, I did know a good black man, once." They were from a different world than I am. They grew up with that being a normal way of thinking. I grew up in California in the suburbs with lots of people of lots of colors and no one cared. Not all of California is awesome like that, much of it is! Cal, if you have racist family members, then you do, obviously, need to address this when your children are tiny. We all have different communities and families around us. We all need to act accordingly. You must have a tough job impressing on your babies that racist comments are *not* normal. How do you give them the idea that most of the people around them are not like that, when their own family is. That's a hard job! You have my sympathy on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 :lurk5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 But we dont know to what this child has been exposed. you are not in her house and none of us even know her. Its not like that child you know in your kid's class is the epitome of WHAT HAPPENS IF WE TALK ABOUT RACE. She is just some little girl trying to sort out her 5 yr old life and she has become for you some bugaboo. Where as her little friend is perceived more favorably bc she isnt combative. I dont care if you are a conservative. I do care if you are making sort of silly overarching statements on how we should talk about race based on 2 black kids you barely know in your kid's kindy class. 1) If you still believe anyone here is advocating NOT TALKING ABOUT RACE, I am done conversing with you, because you are either incapable or unwilling to hear what is being said. 2) This child is not "some bugaboo," she is an example of the result of what you seem to be proposing - that we speak openly about race without filtering the yucky stuff regardless of our children's age. Obviously there are many other examples at all ages, but this child comes to mind because I've been hearing her little comments as spoken to my kids since they were 3. Many times I've corrected what my kids have heard her say, which is not even true. Yes, people of all colors can compete for all job positions and yes, they can have friends and spouses of any color, etc. I only went into so much detail about her because YOU asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I think where we're headed with a few people in this discussion is straight to the attitude that black/ korean/insert race here isnt actually maligned but they think they are and use it as a convenient excuse to fail. Its a fairly typical conservative assessment of american culture and Im not surprised that's the direction some of you want to go. But I think my point is that no one is suggesting we should be inculcating kids with the idea that they actually are inferior to anyone else. Rather we should be firmly showing our kids of any color that they are capable and proud people who can accomplish as much as they are willing to work for in spite of some lingering bad attitudes. And that for some, more opportunities are available now because of brave and hard working and upstanding men like Dr King. The part about my exhusband and stuff being in his head? He knows now that it was mostly in his head! *He* says so. After a few times of "They hate me because I'm Korean" and then realizing that those people have no problem with other Koreans, he suddenly realized that he was paranoid. It took becoming an adult and learning critical thinking for him to be able to sort that out. It's *sad* that he grew up feeling that way. Very, very sad. How nice that he was able to realize, eventually, that most people really don't care about his skin. Your last two sentences I totally agree with. BTW, we had Martin Luther King documentaries on all day on that holiday (we get cable specifically for Americans) because he was a GREAT guy. There was a problem, and he lead people to change it in a non-violent way. He is the kind of person I want my child emulating. I still haven't sat down with my child to say, "Some people will hate you because of how you look." That would be harmful to him at this point. And I don't like the idea that I should have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I have a hard time buying that people talking about race frankly and openly equates most of the time to preparing little Johnny to be hated by all the white kids. Largely kids are in "school" (or some day care or Y progra or moms day out or whatever) by age 2, so you cant really have this long build up of WORRY WORRY WHEN WE GO TO SCHOOL...... If you are an adoptive parent of children of a different race than yourself, you do no one any favors by pretending its all the same sunshine and roses and no thorns, nor would you do any favors by instilling any irrational fear, prejudice, or self loathing into your child. Obviously. But you do best to be honest and age appropriate and address things head on when they occur rather than sweeping things under the rug. That's all Im saying here. What does adoption have to do with this? My child still ended up in a place where there is no one in his community like him. It doesn't matter whether he was adopted or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Also, it's better that my child have his most formative years without this issue. Why? Because then that will be the world he comes from. That will be the ideal he is set up and used to living in. That will be his default. Innocence is a *good* thing. There will be a time when his heart and thinking are further solidified that I will tell him that there are shockingly idiotic people out there who may judge him on many different things, skin color included. Little, little kids don't need that in their tiny little hearts. Now, if someone's family is making nasty racist comment in front of then, then it needs to be handled early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 The child is a caricature you are using to illustrate your point. I don't think so. I think it's a real example in her life of an outcome that hurts her heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 how does one assure this? do you stay home a lot? We were lucky enough to be in a place where racism isn't not tolerated. Then we moved to Mexico, where while racism is shockingly open, but he doesn't have enough Spanish to comprehend. He had 5 blessed years in forward places in California. He's learning more Spanish, and he's 7, so the right time is imminent. I am well aware that there are still places in the States where a dark skinned 2 year old might be called the "n" work in daycare by another 2 year old. There are even places where it might come from the TEACHER. Thankfully, such places are dwindling with time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Its just an example.:) Oh okay. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 The part about my exhusband and stuff being in his head? He knows now that it was mostly in his head! *He* says so. After a few times of "They hate me because I'm Korean" and then realizing that those people have no problem with other Koreans, he suddenly realized that he was paranoid. It took becoming an adult and learning critical thinking for him to be able to sort that out. It's *sad* that he grew up feeling that way. Very, very sad. How nice that he was able to realize, eventually, that most people really don't care about his skin. The message should not be, "Some people will hate you because of how you look," but rather, If anyone hates anyone because of how they look, they should be avoided. They are hateful, and don't you be that way, but stay away from them. Don't tell them that they are bad, let an adult do that--be the better person." Re. your husband, it is important to remember that there is an oversensitivity problem in some people but that it is mostly born out of experiences that you and I, if we are white, will not often see, but that people of color tend to see pretty often. Example: I go into Marie Callendar's for lunch with a good friend of mine who is American Indian. We get seated alone in an unlighted, unheated room, and ignored for 20 minutes. No water, nothing. I go to the front desk and ask our waitress to be sent it, and she doesn't arrive for 10 more. I HAVE CONTEXT to know that this is racist. I have been to this restaurant dozens of times for lunch, and nothing like this has ever happened to me before. My friend sees this kind of thing pretty often. I see it once in 15 visits, and I can disregard it as a fluke. He can't opt out. I can. The difference in our experiences adds a lot more stress to his life than to mine, and also can make him paranoid. I suspect that this is racism, and I am furious. He is pretty sanguine. I go back to my tech job, and describe the incident to several people. The white ones have mixed responses, from outrage to, 'maybe it was just a coincidence.' The Latina ones say, "Oh yeah, MC is terrible that way. When we go there we always give fake English-sounding names instead of Spanish-sounding ones, or we never seem to get tables." Different SETS of experiences, different amounts of stress, different ways of viewing the world. I live in CA in a very mixed environment. I shudder to think what this would be like in some areas that don't have a tradition of abhoring racism as exists here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I dont think so. I think its an example of a little kid she doesn't care for which she is using to illustrate an attitude she believes exists. I didn't read it that way at all. What did she say that lead you think she doesn't care for the child? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 My suggestions of ways to talk about race and make it part of a child's life were ... I didnt suggest you play Strange Fruit and google lynching with your 4 yr old. Tho I do think you should do that with your older child. Maybe gr 6 when you read Roll of Thunder Hear My Cry. I do think you need to talk about racism a little. You also need to talk about people being foolish- when my friend's 3 yr old was told his skin was the color of poop- we dont know what inspired that remark. "What an odd remark," you could say. "Lots of nice things are brown too. Like chocolate. Like the good earth that grows our food, and Mommy's favorite dress, and best of, all you." I mean you dont have to sit down and give a black power speech. But you can acknowledge that it happened, that it wasn't nice, and that the child was wrong. "you" here refers to the general not the specific you!!! See, I don't think we ever disagreed on the above. What you are recommending is what I've been doing with my kids for years, as I have described before. Maybe we are just speaking completely different languages, because my understanding of what you were saying was "putting racism through an age-appropriateness filter is a disservice your children," which is a lot different from what you are saying here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 As far as what to do about it, some decent early resources are "All of the Colors of the Earth" and "The Sneetches". I don't claim to be an expert, but I think that those are a great starting point for preschool or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 I dont think so. I think its an example of a little kid she doesn't care for which she is using to illustrate an attitude she believes exists. Oh, wow. I mentioned that there is a kid in my kids' preschool who was defensive about race at age 3. YOU asked me why I thought this, and only then did I expand on it. I'M SORRY FOR ANSWERING YOUR QUESTION as it obviously makes me a racist idiot who hates this little girl. I just feel sorry for this little girl because she already does not believe that she has a fair chance for people to like her as much as her white classmates. I believe it didn't have to be that way. I like her and I like her mom, too, for your information. I can disagree with a parenting choice without being a hateful, racist b---h. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) The message should not be, "Some people will hate you because of how you look," but rather, If anyone hates anyone because of how they look, they should be avoided. They are hateful, and don't you be that way, but stay away from them. Don't tell them that they are bad, let an adult do that--be the better person." Re. your husband, it is important to remember that there is an oversensitivity problem in some people but that it is mostly born out of experiences that you and I, if we are white, will not often see, but that people of color tend to see pretty often. Example: I go into Marie Callendar's for lunch with a good friend of mine who is American Indian. We get seated alone in an unlighted, unheated room, and ignored for 20 minutes. No water, nothing. I go to the front desk and ask our waitress to be sent it, and she doesn't arrive for 10 more. I HAVE CONTEXT to know that this is racist. I have been to this restaurant dozens of times for lunch, and nothing like this has ever happened to me before. My friend sees this kind of thing pretty often. I see it once in 15 visits, and I can disregard it as a fluke. He can't opt out. I can. The difference in our experiences adds a lot more stress to his life than to mine, and also can make him paranoid. I suspect that this is racism, and I am furious. He is pretty sanguine. I go back to my tech job, and describe the incident to several people. The white ones have mixed responses, from outrage to, 'maybe it was just a coincidence.' The Latina ones say, "Oh yeah, MC is terrible that way. When we go there we always give fake English-sounding names instead of Spanish-sounding ones, or we never seem to get tables." Different SETS of experiences, different amounts of stress, different ways of viewing the world. I live in CA in a very mixed environment. I shudder to think what this would be like in some areas that don't have a tradition of abhoring racism as exists here. I do understand that. But we can all see that that is racism. If other native Americans and people with Spanish sounding names are served right away, then it's probably not. If white people also receive the same terrible service, then it's probably not. When it's across the the board, it's obvious to everyone. Me ex did have a problem. At a certain point in his life, if it would have happened that there was a Korean at the next table over who was served right away, he still would have assumed it was because *he* was Korean. I've known him since he was 14 and was able to watch his ideas change. And, yes his over-sensitivity did come from his experiences! He just needed to not walk around judging *everyone* because of those few people who actually were racist. He was called something once early in Elementary school. He was cornered, alone, in the locker room at school once by the strange crowd of boys who had confederate flags on their trucks and pushed around and called names. And, he visited a friend, once, who had moved to small town Nebraska. He and the family he was visiting went to a restaurant there and when he stepped through the door every conversation stopped and every head turned. Then someone went in the kitchen and all the staff came out to stare. The family took my exH (12 or so at the time) and turned around and walked right back out. It was explained to him that they meant no harm, but they'd never seen an asian person in real life before. These are all very awful things that happened to him. However, he did need to realize, and was rather relieved, that most people are not that way. Out of 2,000 people in our high school, about 7 of them were the weird confederate flag racist guys. You can't take the sins of those guys and put them on all 2,000 people at the school. That, in and of itself, is wrong. However, I can see how a person would end up paranoid. I live in a place that in general doesn't like Americans. My friend, of Mexican decent, but raised in America had a terrible thing happen here. Her husband moved her here and then left a few years later. She had 4 children, from newborn to 6 years old. She *needed* to get a job to feed them. Guess what? Even though she is Mexican, she had an American accent in her Spanish. She couldn't find anyone to hire here. She sold off everything she had to feed her babies. Then, finally, an American who started a home for disabled children here hired her. She has only been able to get jobs from Americans here, ever. It sucks. Badly. I am surrounded by people who judge me for being American. I can see if a person was young and had even only a few bad interactions, how they might worry about everyone around them being racist. Hey, at least we can all agree that racism is EVIL. Edited January 21, 2012 by Sputterduck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Racism is certainly alive and well in America, but I don't think it does our kids any good to tell them at age 5/6 that for most of history, our whole country believed darker skin meant bad people. My son is 8, and I have only recently broached the idea (very lightly) of the idea of people treating others differently based on their skin color. Honestly, the idea has not occurred to my kids, and I'm not in a rush to bring it up. Because my husband and I are white, we don't experience the overt racism that all-black or mixed-race genetic families experience. I know that is a privilege. WHEN my son is old enough to start asking questions, THEN I will explain things to him fully. But at this point in time, I have no interest in making him self-conscious of his skin color. He has enough adoption-related issues to worry about. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 See, I don't think we ever disagreed on the above. What you are recommending is what I've been doing with my kids for years, as I have described before. Maybe we are just speaking completely different languages, because my understanding of what you were saying was "putting racism through an age-appropriateness filter is a disservice your children," which is a lot different from what you are saying here. I think you are right. We probably all agree and I've been doing that for years, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGin Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Ding ding ding. Very concerning to see parents of non white kids putting off discussions that should help arm their kids against unkindness or worse. Putting off teaching about specific kinds of ugliness like racism does not mean they weren't taught to recognize ugliness in general age appropriately. As the parent of my children (wouldn't matter the color), I felt it much more important to teach them first early about beauty and kindness. So how I "armed" my children against unkindness was first of all to demonstrate kindness to them and others, then to teach them to be kind and to expect kindness from people and finally to help them learn when people are unkind to see that as a sad reflection on that person, and not any kind of reflection on themselves. I despise the victim mentality and have raised my children to understand and own their own innate value. They are not victims because of the color of their skin, and they neither expect or accept being "second-classed" either out of hard bigotry or even well meant soft bigotry. That, IMHO is their best defense against bigotry in any form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacongirl Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Just to clarify--in my dd's case--I really don't believe that anyone was bringing up race and skin color to her--I never heard it, and the majority of the people we know and that she interacts with think that we can all be color blind. She decided on her own, probably after getting called the name of the only other Asian adoptee in our town a million times, that she didn't want dark skin and that she wanted a different face. At 3. Thankfully we are moving soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacongirl Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 To the OP--here is the link to the blog I mentioned. http://heartmindandseoul.typepad.com/weblog/ there is a specific post really relevant to this thread but I can't find it--but I have think most of it is worthwhile reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelBee Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 We're all white, so I don't know if this will help or not, but I'll share it with you. My boys and I talked about MLK, slavery, civil rights, etc. the other day. My younger one especially almost didn't even believe me that some white people thought/think that just because someone else's skin is darker than theirs, it means they're 'less'. It was like 'does not compute' on his face, IYKWIM. Then he had lots of questions about why, and do people still believe that, etc. Which surprised me a bit, because we talk a lot in our home about how there's evil in the world, and things of that nature. But the idea that someone was somehow 'less' simply because of their skin color was so ridiculous to my boys, that they almost didn't believe me at first. For which I'm very grateful. I have no experience with having children with darker skin who are wishing for lighter skin. But in your situation, I'd make sure the children understood that it was foolish and wrong for people to judge others based simply on skin color. And that it's great we all don't look exactly alike. And that skin color means nothing at all in regards to what sort of character a person has. My children were equally as baffled. Ds12 has some native american, Creol (sp?), and hispanic. Ds19 is 100% Mexican. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrappyhappymama Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I am white and my husband is Hispanic. Of our four children, one resembles my husband in coloring, two are very white like me, and one is in between. Much of my husband's family is darker skinned and all of mine are white. We also have many friends of varying races and several friends who have adopted children with different racial backgrounds. So we've had many positive discussions with our children about how people come in all different colors and backgrounds and how one cannot judge for certain what someone's racial background is based solely on their appearance (since my children are racially half-Mexican but would never be identified that way by appearance alone). On MLK day, as well as on other national holidays celebrating great people in history, we choose to focus on the positive attributes of that person, and how they contributed to society. We don't ignore their racial background, but we don't make an issue of it either. With Dr. King for example, we listen to or read his most famous speech and talk a little about what beautiful sentiments they convey. At this point, we have not chosen to expand the study into a deeper, broader discussion of racism. In general, we do not do a "black history" or "hispanic history" or "women's history" unit of study. I remember as a child being introduced to these specialty studies and thinking of traditional history studies as "real" history and then these other studies as peripheral and interesting, but not really real history, or at least not as important. Because if they were as important, wouldn't we have learned about it during our "real" history studies. So, one of my early goals in homeschooling was to integrate any "specialty" study groups right into "real" history. Again, we don't ignore someone's racial background, but we don't make it the focus of the story, unless race IS a key factor in the story (pre-civil war slavery, holocaust, etc). But in general, I prefer to teach my children that a man or woman played some important part of history, and allow their racial background to blend into the rest of their biographical description. My children are still quite young- my oldest is only 9- and so far, we have not had deep historical studies of social wrongs like racism. Occasionally, we'll run into situations that involve racism or prejudice or terrorism, and we address these issues as they arise. But for now, we tend to focus on the inspirational aspects of great people in history and not so much the social issues that underlie their lives and actions. On MLK day, I think it is completely appropriate to honor the man and his good works, and possible to do so without introducing age-inappropriate and possibly disturbing social issues. I think my children would be disturbed by a too early introduction to social injustice in the world. Since we've homeschooled from the start, I've never had to put my belief to the test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunshineMom Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) . Edited March 22, 2016 by Lilypad2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGin Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 "Despising the victim mentality" is no excuse to fail to recognize when some one is actually a victim of racial or other abuse. esp if that person is YOUR OWN CHILD. Social justice is an integrated part of my homeschool. Its also part of our Catholic social teaching. a BIG part. Im not skipping it. Im not glossing over it. Im integrating it like you said above, Aimee. But its definitely huge in our home. As someone else pointed out, I think the point of all this was timing. Should we introduce the "dark side" to our young children in order to, as you said, "arm them". I do not believe so. Just because I despise a mentality that accepts the victim role, does not mean I deny someone is or was a victim. I've been a victim of crime, abuse and prejudice at times in my life, but I am NOT a victim now on a daily basis, expecting those around me to continue to abuse or reject me. The world has a boatload of nasty people, but it is also filled with wonderful ones. I do not and have never buried my head in the sand and pretended to myself or my children that racism does not exist. Lots of very ugly and inhumane behaviors exist. This doesn't mean that I want my 3 or 4 or even 6 year old exposed to ugly facts of life in ways that undermine their sense of self or safety. We did all the positive things you mentioned in another post, answered questions as they came up, had many discussions as they matured about race and race relations, etc..but we did not start from a basis of "you will be looked at differently so be prepared." As the children matured, and their awareness of racism in the larger world increased, of course we talked about how to handle such things should they ever encounter it, just as we did with encountering any creepy situations, bullying, sexual predators, etc.. The result - My 16 yo, is confident, self-assertive and very, very, comfortable in her own skin. She has a strong sense of justice and thinks (correctly) that people who make value judgments about others based on things like skin color are completely stupid. She has been deeply interested since about age 7, with segregation, civil rights and also the holocaust and probably knows more about these subjects then most of her high school classmates. She has faced down bigots and walked away unshaken in her own sense of worth. That was my goal and I think we did good despite being careful and gentle in our approach while she was young :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindyg Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Well, here's a relevant link: Dark Girls documentary trailer. It's 9 minutes long and worth watching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) yikes. I'm removing my post which included personal information. This thread has obviously gone in another direction. Edited January 23, 2012 by stripe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 This thread is about Dr Martin Luther King and a day to honor him. And post after post has people thinking its ok not to teach about him until it comes up in your 4 yr cycle. That is not ok. You continue to either misunderstand or just want to argue. I'm done with the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcelmer Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) nm Edited January 23, 2012 by lcelmer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higginszoo Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 My kids are jealous of the bi-racial kids that occasionally show up at our church. My girls LOVE the little girls' hair. I remember this from when I was in kindergarten and then in second grade. In each class I had a friend who was of African heritage and had great curly hair that she could wear all kinds of barrettes and ponytail holders with beads and braids. (I remember the second grade friend got cornrows that she was so proud of -- rightfully so as I now realize how long she must have had to sit still.) I was so jealous because with my straight, babyfine hair, I couldn't even get a bobby pin to stay to keep my bangs out of my face, so my mom wouldn't let them grow out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanna Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 My KG dds are brown-skinned. They have attended preschool for 2.5 years with diverse classmates. This is the first year they had a formal MLK lesson. First they came home talking about how black kids used to have to go to different schools from white kids, etc. Then they started on a trend of commenting how they want lighter skin, isn't my skin lighter than Sister's, A's is darker than mine so she's yucky. I have heard that other similar-aged brown-skinned kids have had similar reactions right after MLK day. Those of you with nonwhite children - do you notice this? Do you think it's because kids this young don't get the point that adults did IGNORANT things to blacks because racism is IGNORANT? That's what I think. They get that society did ABC and they get that ABC was sucky for black people. But they don't get that ABC was based on foolishness - after all, it was done by the adults in charge. Am I making any sense? Racism is certainly alive and well in America, but I don't think it does our kids any good to tell them at age 5/6 that for most of history, our whole country believed darker skin meant bad people. I think they can get the point of the lesson when they are several years older. Meanwhile, each family can address racial issues as they see fit (my kids and I have had many discussions about racism and slavery that didn't leave them feeling ugly or undesireable). Any other views from parents of nonwhite kids? OP, :iagree: with you. My children are multi-ethnic and they have always been homeschooled (so, we didn't have the factor of these very "difficult to swallow" lessons coming to them at a time we didn't want them to). ...On MLK day, as well as on other national holidays celebrating great people in history, we choose to focus on the positive attributes of that person, and how they contributed to society. We don't ignore their racial background, but we don't make an issue of it either. With Dr. King for example, we listen to or read his most famous speech and talk a little about what beautiful sentiments they convey... On MLK Day we've done similar activities or gone to a local event. ...In general, we do not do a "black history" or "hispanic history" or "women's history" unit of study. I remember as a child being introduced to these specialty studies and thinking of traditional history studies as "real" history and then these other studies as peripheral and interesting but not really real history, or at least not as important... Ha! I felt the same way growing up. ...Because if they were as important, wouldn't we have learned about it during our "real" history studies. So, one of my early goals in homeschooling was to integrate any "specialty" study groups right into "real" history. Again, we don't ignore someone's racial background, but we don't make it the focus of the story, unless race IS a key factor in the story (pre-civil war slavery, holocaust, etc). But in general, I prefer to teach my children that a man or woman played some important part of history, and allow their racial background to blend into the rest of their biographical description... :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 First of all, when white people say “ color doesn’t matter, everyone is the same or I’m color- blind†those statements deny people of color, not only of their experiences but of their history. Such statements may be felt that way, but this doesn't mean they are intended. A person can say those things without denying any such thing. A person may not be able to hear them without feeling they are being denied. But perhaps I shouldn't be poking my Australian nose into America. Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Such statements may be felt that way, but this doesn't mean they are intended. A person can say those things without denying any such thing. A person may not be able to hear them without feeling they are being denied. But perhaps I shouldn't be poking my Australian nose into America. Rosie I think you would have insight/experience similar to ours, however, so poke away. The natives of Australia have not fared terribly well. Our countries have both abused native peoples and have had issues with race. And if I may skip continents... My dh is European, and I can't say that his country is doing anything great for minorities. Some European coutries might have outlawed African slavery earlier than the US did, but I don't see much progress/intergration in business or politics etc. My experience is that many Europeans are quite xenophobic/no more accepting than some white Americans. (I have a non-white child). In my dh's country, racism runs deep. I can't see a minority being elected president anywhere in Europe at any point in my lifetime. Edited January 23, 2012 by LibraryLover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I think you would have insight/experience similar to ours, however, so poke away. The natives of Australia have not fared terribly well. Our countries have both abused native peoples and have had issues with race. And if I may skip continents... True, but racial issues here are quite different to America's situation, though some sectors of the population seem to be trying to change that. As if training our population to have both Australian and American racial hangups will help us reach enlightenment. :glare: Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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