If you HAD to pick one, which is more important, math or writing ability?

[Iucounu]

After working around technical people for decades, I didn't meet a single one who couldn't express himself or herself perfectly adequately. Math without a doubt. It's false that you can fake your way through math, or just pick it up as you can with language.

[JFSinIL]

Writing. You can get a calculator for math.

[Iucounu]

Writing. You can get a calculator for math.

No. You can get a calculator for arithmetic. The only way to achieve math ability is to actually learn it.

 

What does this mean? Well, if one is happy with the idea that one's child will be restricted to being able to shop for groceries and add everything up with a calculator, but in all other ways be unable to truly work with math, then... I guess not "more power to you", but that's one set of value judgments, I guess. If one wants one's child to be able to work in any technical field, or in any field where it's necessary to understand technical concepts, it's not enough to just buy a calculator and hope for the best.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Iucounu

[KarenC]

Math is the door way to so much else.

 

Karen

[mycalling]

After waffling back and forth while reading others' replies, I've decided on Math.

 

If one can speak and read well, that easily translates into writing well...enough. With a lack of understanding of just basic math and personal finance, you're overpaying or worse. People lose their homes for lack of money management skills. They have their water or electricity turned off. They end up with no money left to buy food.

[Kim in Appalachia]

I think writing can be learned later in life, as long as the person has read a wide variety of material.

 

Math needs to be learned systematically. You can't just see it enough or even just practice it to learn it. You need to be taught and you need to practice. And honestly, in our current culture, math is a necessity.

[Sandra in FL]

So if you're a really awesome writer, what happens when someone doesn't speak the language you are so well versed in? You hand them your communication and they can't read it. I believe their is less of a language barrier in math.

 

Of course one might make the point that we need language to support math. E=mc^2 is part language.

 

Interesting discussion.

 

Good point about the different languages - those millions in China are more likely to understand math. Communication is also not limited to written but to verbal and strength in one doesn't necessarily translate to strength in the other.

[FriedClams]

42

[elegantlion]

42

 

 

:D

[Mrs Mungo]

I think you need at least a basic knowledge of both. I have known adults (with college degrees) who couldn't figure out how much they were owed on their paycheck. I have known adults (with college degrees) who couldn't write a cover letter or business letter. Those are both serious problems.

 

Everyone needs to know something about math. A lack of math skill is why one friend of mine couldn't figure out why the can of paint that said it covered 200 sf only painted one and a half of the walls in her bedroom. A calculator would not have helped. She needed spatial math to know that each wall in her bedroom was 15x10 and therefore each wall was 150 sf.

 

But, everything in life also involves sales (and therefore writing/rhetoric skills). You have to sell yourself, your ideas, your business, etc. I don't think you can do that effectively without knowing something about writing. I frequently skip over businesses that seem unprofessional. When my dh is looking over packets for promotion or people seeking jobs, weeding out those who cannot spell is an easy first winnowing tool.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[Halcyon]

42

 

 

 

42+56-(12x5)^4

 

:lol:

[Perry]

Actually, it looks like most of the people saying "math" explain that it's because you make more money that way. So, having more math skills should help you count it, I guess. (Note, please, that I didn't say "all." There were people who voted math but had more eloquent reasons.)

I don't see that at all. People are talking about job opportunities and employability, not about getting rich! :glare:

 

Here's a list from US News of the "50 best careers of 2011"

 

Here's our list of the 50 Best Careers of 2011—click each job to learn more:

Business Jobs:

• Accountant

• Actuary

• Financial adviser

• Financial analyst

• Logistician

• Meeting planner

• Public relations specialist

• Sales manager

• Training specialist

 

Creative and Service Jobs:

• Commercial pilot

• Curator

• Film and video editor

• Gaming manager

• Heating, air conditioning and refrigeration technician

• Interpreter/Translator

• Multimedia artist

• Technical writer

 

Healthcare Jobs:

• Athletic trainer

• Dental hygienist

• Lab technician

• Massage therapist

• Occupational therapist

• Optometrist

• Physician assistant

• Physical therapist

• Physical therapist assistant

• Radiologic technologist

• Registered nurse

• School psychologist

• Veterinarian

 

Social Service Jobs:

• Clergy

• Court reporter

• Education administrator

• Emergency management specialist

• Firefighter

• Marriage and family therapist

• Mediator

• Medical and public health social worker

• Special-education teacher

• Urban planner

 

Technology Jobs:

• Biomedical engineer

• Civil engineer

• Computer software engineer

• Computer support specialist

• Computer systems analyst

• Environmental engineering technician

• Environmental science technician

• Hydrologist

• Meteorologist

• Network architect

 

 

People who can't do math can cross most of these off their list. People who can't write well could still do most of them.

[Mrs Mungo]

People who can't do math can cross most of these off their list. People who can't write well could still do most of them.

 

I totally disagree. Most of those jobs are professional jobs. My dh is in logistics. He doesn't hire, keep or promote people who cannot write and/or speak in a professional manner. *Most* of those jobs require *both skills*.

[Iucounu]

I think the debate has gone off on a bit of a wrong tangent. The question really is not a choice between zero ability in one and mastery of the other, but a basic level of untaught or little-taught ability in one and mastery of the other. Most people that can use the web (which is most people) can look up a template for a cover letter, and from simply conversing with people, posting on discussion boards, etc. can at least communicate. The same isn't true of math; you can't pick up what I'd call acceptable math proficiency from just living your life. Maybe a better way to frame the question would be, "If you had to pick advanced/specialized training in one or the other, which would you pick?"

[Perry]

I totally disagree. Most of those jobs are professional jobs. My dh is in logistics. He doesn't hire, keep or promote people who cannot write and/or speak in a professional manner. *Most* of those jobs require *both skills*.

I guess it depends on what level of writing skill we're talking about. I know many people in the medical field who aren't good writers, although they get by fine. They do have basic writing skills though-- it isn't as if they can't write at all.

[Mrs Mungo]

I think the debate has gone off on a bit of a wrong tangent. The question really is not a choice between zero ability in one and mastery of the other, but a basic level of untaught or little-taught ability in one and mastery of the other. Most people that can use the web (which is most people) can look up a template for a cover letter, and from simply conversing with people, posting on discussion boards, etc. can at least communicate. The same isn't true of math; you can't pick up what I'd call acceptable math proficiency from just living your life.

 

And I do not believe you can pick up acceptable writing ability from living your life. I once had to completely re-write a business letter for a neighbor because it was incoherent. She has a Master's degree in a business related field.

 

I can tell you that my husband regularly gets rid of people who cannot write or speak. I am talking about people who have college degrees and therefore have had a basic level of instruction. The degree indicates that they must have some amount of proficiency, but not enough to succeed in the types of jobs in the above list.

[Mrs Mungo]

I guess it depends on what level of writing skill we're talking about. I know many people in the medical field who aren't good writers, although they get by fine. They do have basic writing skills though-- it isn't as if they can't write at all.

 

It may also depend upon how one is defining success. The last person in their medical class is still a doctor. But, if they can't write it will inhibit their success. They may not publish professional papers. Therefore, they may not get the juicy fellowships or grants.

[Perry]

It may also depend upon how one is defining success. The last person in their medical class is still a doctor. But, if they can't write it will inhibit their success. They may not publish professional papers. Therefore, they may not get the juicy fellowships or grants.

Most doctors don't get fellowships or grants anyway. Only those in academia do.

 

Most doctors in regular practice do very little writing.

[Iucounu]

And I do not believe you can pick up acceptable writing ability from living your life. I once had to completely re-write a business letter for a neighbor because it was incoherent. She has a Master's degree in a business related field.

 

I can tell you that my husband regularly gets rid of people who cannot write or speak. I am talking about people who have college degrees and therefore have had a basic level of instruction. The degree indicates that they must have some amount of proficiency, but not enough to succeed in the types of jobs in the above list.

I guess we'll have to disagree about that then... but I have to say that the hiring/firing practices of a particular person don't qualify as any sort of evidence about the actual employability of a person. Your husband might be quite picky. As I said before, I've met scads of technical people who communicate quite fine, and in fact have never met a technical person who didn't communicate adequately.

 

What conclusions can we draw? Perhaps that we have different viewpoints on what's acceptable in terms of communication ability-- but also that the people about whom I and your husband would disagree are actually out there working.

[LibraryLover]

I thought the poll was in fun. :Pout:

 

It doesn't sound fun anymore, although that link from US News is good news for one of my kids who can't let go of wanting to be a psych major. Kid was 'psyched' about the need for school psychologists.

 

Not that I'm proud or anything. A pack of kids, and so far , not a scientist in the bunch. I chose their (scientist) father for a reason and they have thus far ignored that. ;)

 

Our youngest seems to be breaking free from all that liberal arts nonsense. There is hope.

 

:D

Edited November 5, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Mrs Mungo]

Most doctors don't get fellowships or grants anyway. Only those in academia do.

 

Most doctors in regular practice do very little writing.

 

Don't pretty much all specialists do fellowships for that training?

 

I guess we'll have to disagree about that then... but I have to say that the hiring/firing practices of a particular person don't qualify as any sort of evidence about the actual employability of a person. Your husband might be quite picky. As I said before, I've met scads of technical people who communicate quite fine, and in fact have never met a technical person who didn't communicate adequately.

 

We must not have encountered the same people then. I have known quite a few technical people whose lack of communication skills inhibited their success and job potential.

 

What conclusions can we draw? Perhaps that we have different viewpoints on what's acceptable in terms of communication ability-- but also that the people about whom I and your husband would disagree are actually out there working.

 

But so are plenty of liberal arts types who never took a college math course. My dh has a liberal arts degree and works in logistics, which requires a lot of math.

[Perry]

It may also depend upon how one is defining success. The last person in their medical class is still a doctor. But, if they can't write it will inhibit their success. They may not publish professional papers. Therefore, they may not get the juicy fellowships or grants.

If you're good at both you can pretty much do anything you want. But that wasn't one of the choices. :D

 

If you aren't good at math it would be very, very hard to get into medical school. But if you take the right undergrad classes, you could easily get through college without doing much writing. The only writing sample the medical school admissions committee will ever see is the application essay, and anyone with any sense would get help with it, if they have weak writing skills. So weak writing skills wouldn't necessarily keep you from being a doctor.

 

It would, however, keep you from being a researcher or professor of medicine.

[Lolly]

I find the question hysterical.

 

I see all the writers waxing eloquent as to why writing is more important. They will write beautifully drafted, emotional, thoughtful answers.

 

The math people won't answer because there is no "real" answer.

 

:lol::lol:

 

:lol:Yep!:lol:

 

42

 

:D:iagree:

 

 

:confused:Does that mean math?!

[Mrs Mungo]

If you're good at both you can pretty much do anything you want. But that wasn't one of the choices. :D

 

If you aren't good at math it would be very, very hard to get into medical school. But if you take the right undergrad classes, you could easily get through college without doing much writing. The only writing sample the medical school admissions committee will ever see is the application essay, and anyone with any sense would get help with it, if they have weak writing skills. So weak writing skills wouldn't necessarily keep you from being a doctor.

 

It would, however, keep you from being a researcher or professor of medicine.

 

As someone who has written many an admission essay for our friends, I can see that. ;)

 

However, many of the jobs on the list would absolutely require good communication and writing skills.

 

I think what you *really* need to know is how to learn. If you knkw how to learn, then you can learn whatever you want at any stage of life.

[Perry]

Don't pretty much all specialists do fellowships for that training?

No, specialists do residencies in their area (ophthalmology, surgery, psychiatry, etc.) People who want to subspecialize do fellowships, like cardiology or pediatric ophthalmology. A fellowship is also essential for people who want to do academic medicine. I don't know how many physicians do fellowships.

 

I doubt if writing ability is much of an issue when applying for a fellowship though.

[Iucounu]

We must not have encountered the same people then. I have known quite a few technical people whose lack of communication skills inhibited their success and job potential.

Perhaps you misread the situation. Technical skills are far more important than writing skills in many tech-heavy positions. Say, for example, in engineering, software development (really most computer-related fields). In fact I've known more than a few managers in computer-related fields with writing skills that were not top-notch. It's simply not necessary to be a poet in order to work with technology.

 

That's not to say that there aren't certain positions even within those fields where writing ability is not more important. Project management is one. However, it's simply untrue that your logistics-managing husband's experience is indicative of broad swaths of the technology sector.

[Perry]

My dh was the assistant director of a family practice medical residency program for many years. He was very closely involved with their training and education, and had exposure to many residents over the years. (These would be medical school graduates, doing their 3 year residency to become family practice physicians.) I told him about this thread, and asked him his opinion of the residents' overall writing skills.

 

Although he rarely saw anything they actually wrote, he estimates that about 70% had poor writing skills, based on their dictations in the patients' charts.

 

I would have guessed about half, but he says it was much worse than that.

 

I think the people that really rise to the top of their profession (program directors, administrators, professors, etc.) would certainly need to excel at writing. But for the majority, good writing skills are optimal and desirable, but uncommon and not absolutely necessary.

[Mommyof4ks]

To me, it is a moot question. The most important skill is the one you were gifted with.

 

The world needs mathematicians; the world needs writers. The world needs artists and athletes, mechanics and agriculturalists, scientists and historians, plumbers and accountants and trash collectors. Do the best you can with the skills you were given.

 

:iagree: My son will make a great engineer, but he will likely need an assistant to do his writing if he cannot use a computer to type things lol. My dd is a great writer, but she will need a calculator to get through life. I do think reading is necessary though, because without that people have a very hard time learning some information even today with so many audiobooks. There is not an audiobook for the rules written on the signs at the pool or the park.

[Mrs Mungo]

I have neither misread the situation nor am I ignoring the fact that people can get and hold a job without good writing skills. You are both now arguing something different than what I was discussing.

 

I have two points. One, that while technical types can be employed without writing skills, the inverse is also true; liberal arts types are readily employed with minimal math skills. Two, just as many jobs on the above list (posted by Perry) require good communication skills as math skills.

 

I counted about the same number that needed math skills versus communication and/or writing skills. Some of them needed both. Some of them really didn't need either one.

[Iucounu]

I have neither misread the situation nor am I ignoring the fact that people can get and hold a job without good writing skills. You are both now arguing something different than what I was discussing.

I don't think so. You assert that writing skills are just as important as technical skills in technical jobs. It's simply untrue, in my opinion. And if you're now agreeing that someone with good technical skill but poor communication skill is employable, it's different from what you were suggesting with the stories about your husband's hiring practices.

 

I would go along with the statement that both are desirable. But one is less necessary than the other.

 

Let's say you were hiring for an actuarial position. You had two candidates, one with the communication skills of an average netizen (i.e. not splendid) but great math skills. The other was the opposite: poor technical/math skills but great communication skills. Which would you choose? That's the subject of the poll.

 

Now, rinse and repeat for:

Accountants

Engineers (all flavors)

Computer programmers

... etc., etc., etc.

 

Would lack of communication skill limit one in such occupations? Sure; it'd be harder and harder to climb the corporate ladder past a certain point (at which point hopefully some of the deficient communicators would think about further schooling). However, lack of technical skill would be a bar to entry.

[wapiti]

I say math. If you're good at math, your logic skills will transfer over to your writing. If you're good at writing...well, I'm doubting there's much transfer to math.

:iagree:

[Mrs Mungo]

Let's say you were hiring for an actuarial position. You had two candidates, one with the communication skills of an average netizen (i.e. not splendid) but great math skills. The other was the opposite: poor technical/math skills but great communication skills. Which would you choose? That's the subject of the poll.

 

Except, it isn't. The subject of the poll is *not* which is more important for technical jobs.

 

Now, rinse and repeat for:

Accountants

Engineers (all flavors)

Computer programmers

... etc., etc., etc.

 

And which is more important for social workers, human resources managers, PR specialists and the other half of the list? Which is more important for specific jobs is not an indicator of which is more important in life or jobs in general.

 

Would lack of communication skill limit one in such occupations? Sure; it'd be harder and harder to climb the corporate ladder past a certain point (at which point hopefully some of the deficient communicators would think about further schooling). However, lack of technical skill would be a bar to entry.

 

And now you are agreeing with me that good communication skills are necessary at some point when you are talking about executive types. That is the position my dh is in. Perry's list was about high earners, and that is why I made that point. Lack of communication skills is a bar to serving at a certain level. It is not something that can be taught that late in the game in my experience.

[Perry]

 

I have two points. One, that while technical types can be employed without writing skills, the inverse is also true; liberal arts types are readily employed with minimal math skills.

I agree with this, but since technical jobs are more plentiful, and will be even more so in the future, there will be more opportunities for people with math skills than those without.

[Miss Marple]

I thought the poll was in fun. :Pout:

 

It doesn't sound fun anymore

 

:iagree: It's sort of like the question about being in the boat with your wife/husband and child. The boat starts to sink and you can only save one of them. Which will you choose? Those scenarios can bring about heated discussion :D And there is NO real answer because these scenarios aren't real. But it *is* fun to see which the various boardies feel is more important and to get some insight into what people think will make them happy - because that was how the OP phrased the question: which will make you happy (define as you wish).

[Mrs Mungo]

Sorry, I didn't mean to suck any fun out of the poll. :D

 

I feel that schools are turning out college graduates who do not have even decent communication skills. It can and does affect their job prospects. It bothers me...a lot.

[Krista in LA]

I think in school, writing is more important as it's used in so many subjects. In life, I think math is more important - if it weren't for these message boards, I could go months without writing anything, but I use math every day.

[happypamama]

After working around technical people for decades, I didn't meet a single one who couldn't express himself or herself perfectly adequately. Math without a doubt. It's false that you can fake your way through math, or just pick it up as you can with language.

 

Oh, I don't think you can pick math up necessarily easily at all, but I've seen so many examples where I didn't know someone's math ability but was immediately turned off by that person's lack of decent writing ability. For instance, we got a letter from someone running for a local township office, in which he asked for our vote. It was terribly written -- grammatical errors and such galore -- and was an immediate turn-off for me. If this guy was applying for a job, he might have great math skills, but I'd never get the opportunity to find out, because his English skills were so bad that I wouldn't be inclined to give him an interview.

 

Otoh, my DH is an excellent writer, and he sounds intelligent when he writes. I think he'd be more likely to get a chance at an interview than the other guy.

 

In reality, I do think both are important, and you need a minimum proficiency in both. But I think people are more likely to consider it a bigger deal if someone's grammar is poor than if that person's arithmetic is poor.

[Miss Marple]

Sorry, I didn't mean to suck any fun out of the poll. :D

 

I feel that schools are turning out college graduates who do not have even decent communication skills. It can and does affect their job prospects. It bothers me...a lot.

 

LOL! My dh regularly works with new physicians and he often finds their daily notes difficult to comprehend. Even using the SOAP method doesn't help. He has read me many of these notes and they are juvenile in many cases. I preview Eagle Scout projects (the write-ups) that are almost unreadable. I have talked to some teachers and have been told that phonetic spelling is considered acceptable in the local high schools. These kids also have no ability to construct a sentence much less a proper paragraph. So I agree...the schools around here are doing a very poor job teaching communications skills. But I'm not impressed with their math skills either :D

[NittanyJen]

Writing. You can fake it if you're not great at math, but if you don't have decent writing skills, you can't fake it; you end up sounding unintelligent.

 

Maybe you can fake arithmetic; I'd like to see somebody fake actual math ;). I have seen attempts on the part of many a student, and it isn't a pretty sight!

[gardenmom5]

(snip)

The world needs both kinds of people. I don't want to live in a world in which, as another poster said, the bridges fall down. However, I don't think people who have been forced to build bridges because "that's where the money is" are likely to be especially great at it. I'd much rather leave the bridge building to people who love it and let the others do things I consider equally important.

 

dd's middle school math teacher (a MATH TEACHER!!!!!!!) made the comment to a parent that "we don't care if they get the answer right . .. " she made that comment to an engineer dad who replied. "if the math is wrong, the plane will crash". (or worse, the mars rover beause of poor written communication skills that led to mistakes. very *expensive* mistake.)