When do you know if you should 'hold back' your child a grade? Need your help.

[Guest stronghold7]

This is my first post at 'the Hive.' I've been reading a lot of posts over the last few days and I have gleaned a LOT of information. One thing that I've been wondering about lately is the grade level of my ds9. I did do some searches and found quite a few posts on this topic, but not one that specifically met my needs. So here it goes...let me tell you about my son and see what you think. Thanks for listening and for your input.

Ds 9 was a very late talker from the beginning. He had a lot of speech trouble, and at almost 10 (December birthday) he still has trouble with words. He did have some speech therapy when he was little, and hearing tests and such, which all turned out normal, but that's it. He has trouble with singing or talking to fast and getting words all tangled up. While I wouldn't say he studders, sometimes he almost does, if that makes any sense. He actually does echo himself at the end of his words a lot, but not at the beginning. He also had a harder time learning to read than I would say most kids do. He is still doing phonics, and I don't see that ending for the foreseeable future. He just started cursive. He has difficulties reading it, but writes it fine so far. He still has trouble holding his pencil correctly, he wants to cross over his fingers so I'm looking into some sort of pencil grip for him. Even though he does have some trouble with reading and was very late, he has really blossomed in the last year. He LOVES to read, and is reading his Child's History of the World (doing AO year 3 with him) independently now, and I just handed Island Story over to him to do independently as well. He gives me great narrations so I know he is understanding. I do have to tell him to slow down and try to make better sentences when he's narrating or he is a bit all over the place, but as far as information they are sound. His reading out loud still needs quite a bit of work, but it is slowly getting better. We've been quite CM over the past few years and therefore he is just getting to where he would start doing grammar, although I have done some EG with him, and he LOVES the book Grammar Land, so he is getting his basic parts of speech down. I'm going to be starting R&S English grade 2 with him soon. I wondered between 2 and 3, but after looking at the samples I think 2 will be about right for him. He is a terrible speller, but he just got through AAS1 and has started 2 and I can see some improvement. His writing skills are very, very behind that of my oldest son at that age, but I do continue to see small improvements. We are using WWE 2 for him and he's doing well with it, I think. Math, he's behind. He has barely touched multiplication or division at all. He's actually going to be starting R&S math 3.

If anyone was darling enough to actually read all of that and help me to critique from an unbiased point of view, thank you so much! I just feel like lately, when people ask what grade he is in, that saying 4th doesn't seem right. Yes, age wise that is what he would be in PS. But he's so not 4th in so many areas. He does not care what grade he is in, and could really care less, so there is no hurting his feelings on this at all. Or do I not worry about it at all and just graduate him in December when he turns 19? Haha now there's some looking ahead into the future. Maybe I'd better slow down. :tongue_smilie: Thanks for listening. It's just been on my mind a lot and I don't have anyone in RL to talk to about it.

[roanna]

Some of the things you mentioned have been talked about on the accelerated learner boards, the echoing and such. It be beneficial to mention it there too if you don't get many responses.

[Ellie]

I understand your concern, but the fact that he seems delayed in some areas now does not mean that he will not catch up to his age peers later.

 

I owned/administered an umbrella school for homeschoolers for 16 years; many of my parents over the years had concerns about their dc's abilities vs "grade level" and whatnot. And I came to have a very strong opinion about it, based on their experiences, some of which included things I had to do as a school administrator to fix things when their dc went to school, or the dc were graduated and needed transcripts, and more.

 

And my very strong opinion is that whenever you have to attach a grade level label on your child, it should be the one that would be the grade he'd be in if he were in school...UNLESS you have documented, professional evaluations/testing/whatever showing that he is NOT capable of working at his grade level. And I'm not talking about social maturity, because that is irrelevant, IMHO (especially since you're hsing).

 

If you decide that you need to hold him back (and how a homeschooler does that is a puzzle to me, anyway), he should continue in Sunday school or 4H or Scouts or any other group activity with his age peers.

[wapiti]

Have you considered testing for LDs and vision? You may want to post your question on the SN board, since it sounds like there might be learning issues of some kind, which is not terribly unusual amongst late talkers.

 

I would be reluctant to "hold back" (even only on paper, because the fact is that you're meeting him where he is regardless) if there are LD issues that you could do something about. There may be time to catch up, and I don't think I'd hold back (on paper) until it was clear the catching up wasn't going to happen, probably around the start of high school.

[susankenny]

FWIW, many 9 year olds are in 3rd grade here. The cut-off date is September 1, and it isn't unusual at all.

 

I agree with others though... to have him be in 4th grade but at different levels in specific subjects is also very normal.

 

Susan

[go_go_gadget]

From everything I've read, it's far more common for a HS child to span two or three grade levels than to be at the same level in all subjects. If your son is ahead in some areas and still challenged by others, I'd split the difference and say he's in whatever grade he would be in in PS.

[GingerPoppy]

FWIW, many 9 year olds are in 3rd grade here. The cut-off date is September 1, and it isn't unusual at all.

 

I agree with others though... to have him be in 4th grade but at different levels in specific subjects is also very normal.

 

Susan

 

Really? I wish it was like that around here. My 9 year old is technically in grade 5 (would be, if she was still in school). It just seems crazy to me. She missed the cutoff by only 2 weeks--wish I could have held her in a little longer! :D When people on the board are talking about their grade 5 kids doing a bunch of difficult things (writing essays, doing pre-algebra, etc.) it makes me feel like my daughter is behind. But she's not--she's only 9. Anyway, I just wish it was more standardized.

 

To the OP: I think it depends on whether you intend to have him go to school at some point. If so, he might benefit from being one grade younger so that he feels he's working at around the same level as his peers, rather than struggling... especially since he doesn't care one way or the other.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

The pencil grip--- find the grotto crossover! You can not see it well from the pic but it does WONDERS! My 7 year old has HFA as well as low tone and other issues and that corrected his handwriting within days- he was out of the grip totally in about a week and a half. Its AMAZING! I thank his OT for showing that to me.

 

 

I would get your son an evaluation. It sounds like you could benefit a full evaluation to see exactly what learning style you are dealing with so you can get the correct curriculum to maximize his learning. I just went through that last winter/spring with my now 7 year old and I made few curriculum changes and few adjustments in how I presented the curriculum I kept and ds has made HUGE leaps and bounds!!!!! I can not tell you the amazing difference in him! Also- now that I am teaching him how HE needs to learn he does not dread school anymore! He likes it and wants to learn!!

 

My son went from being a 6 year old end of kindergartner who could not write beyond his name and his name was barely legible to doing very good printing (for him- the is doing amazing!!) He was at a point where he could not count to 10 and now can count to 100 (just gets stuck around the 8's, 9's and new 10's numbers- ex 28,29, 30 confuses him but he is getting there, I had to show him the patterns in numbers) He did not know all his letter sounds or could not recognize them and now he is reading 3 letter words AND starting on some phonograms (sh, ch, ck, th) Its still a struggle but he is getting it. He has to say each and every sound in CVC words no matter how many times he has read it, but he is going it and is making progress that I am so elated with!

 

Once you get an evaluation, come to the SN board and share your findings because the ladies over there are full of knowledge and understanding and practical ideas that are awesome!! If it were not for them I don't know where I would be!!

 

 

Also, Don't worry about grade level! Just teach your son the way he needs to be taught and it will all work out :)

Edited October 11, 2011 by wy_kid_wrangler04

[Jay3fer]

People find it annoying, but I always tell them my dd's in "Grade 1-ish..."

If they figure it's a weird homeschool thing, then fine. Basically, some of her work is Grade 1, some is Grade 2, some is probably still Kindergarten. So??

 

We're hs'ing, in part, to get away from the arbitrariness of equating a physical age with an intellectual grade. My older dd is 15 in Grade 11, but as a December 31st baby, she's almost a year younger than some of her "colleagues." Are they all exactly at the same intellectual level? (nope)

So I'm happy to make a bit of a statement when people ask.

 

But if your ds is old enough, and just wants an easy answer, let him say whatever he wants, or whatever's appropriate for his age. Are they going to be peeking at his curriculum stuff??? :-)

[Joyofsixreboot]

I wouldn't call him any grade, just work where he is. My ds " repeated" or really continued 3rd grade in 4th. He never knew that. Then we addressed some issues and he zoomed ahead.

 

1. Testing for processing disorders.

2. Testing with a COVD not an average optometrist.

:grouphug: to you. Go with your gut. :grouphug:

[Acorn]

I can't respond to the homeschooling aspects, but my son will turn 9 two weeks after starting 3rd grade. Presently, there is a child in his K class that is even older.

[8filltheheart]

Really? I wish it was like that around here. My 9 year old is technically in grade 5 (would be, if she was still in school). It just seems crazy to me. She missed the cutoff by only 2 weeks--wish I could have held her in a little longer! :D When people on the board are talking about their grade 5 kids doing a bunch of difficult things (writing essays, doing pre-algebra, etc.) it makes me feel like my daughter is behind. But she's not--she's only 9. Anyway, I just wish it was more standardized.

 

 

 

9 yrs old for 5th grade is definitely not the norm in the US and unless the law has changed, not in ON either. My siblings and I all began (or finished) school in ON and we were all 5 in K. When we moved to the States, none of us were off cycle w/the schools here age-wise. I would be very unhappy w/a law that required 4 yr olds in K. :tongue_smilie: The breakdown here is typically:

K= 5/6

1st= 6/7

2nd=7/8

3rd=8/9

4th=9/10

5th=10/11

Cut-off dates range from Sept 1-Dec, but Sept 1-30 cut-offs are definitely the norm. (I would guess over 80%+ states have cut-off dates in that range.) So, when you are reading about 5th graders' work levels, normally we are discussing kids that are at minimum 10, but a lot will be getting ready to turn 11.

 

OP, I don't think any of us can realistically evaluate your situation. I would encourage you to seek evaluations at this pt. I wouldn't worry about grade level, but I would want answers to help understand what you are seeing.

 

It is impossible to predict future achievements when they are that age. My most advanced student didn't read on grade level until 4th grade. FWIW, I didn't seek evaluations for him and I do regret that decision. I know that he has mild dyslexia, but I also believe he has some sort of auditory processing disorder. (he cannot hear the difference b/t short e and short i). He is very bright and his intelligence masks a lot of his problems b/c he has learned to compensate in other ways.

Edited October 11, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[mytwomonkeys]

Really? I wish it was like that around here. My 9 year old is technically in grade 5 (would be, if she was still in school). It just seems crazy to me. She missed the cutoff by only 2 weeks--wish I could have held her in a little longer! :D

 

my daughter is 10 & in 4th grade. she has an october birthday, so she just turned 10 of course, but the cut-off date is Sept 1 here.

[prairiegirl]

My dd will be 9 in Jan and, according to the ps system, she is in Gr.3. When people ask me what grade she is in, I mechanically answer, "Gr. 3." But she is not working at a gr. 3 level. She is doing Gr. 2 work in math. She is not reading yet (not even close,) she is writing well but, due to her lack of reading, she is not spelling at all either. But I still call her a 3rd grader to make life easier for her and me. We just keep on plugging away at the level that she is at for each subject.

 

My dd is dyslexic and, I suspect, has ADD. We are in the process of having her assessed so that we can start finding tangible ways to help her (I am using a dyslexic reading program with her but progress is snailishly slow.) I tell you all of this to suggest that you might want to look into assessment. I am not saying that anything is wrong but some of the things that you have written in your post raises little flags for me. If there is something else at play here with your ds, in knowing firmly what it is, then you can find solutions to help him much easier than if you are going at this in the dark.

[Guest stronghold7]

Thank you for all your input. I do appreciate it. I am wondering exactly what I would do to have him evaluated? I really have no idea where to even go to do that. I will talk to dh about it, have him read all of your replies and see what he thinks as well. I know focusing on his grade is not productive whatsoever, I guess I just thought if he had another year to practice the things he has trouble with he'd end up ok. Now I'm thinking I probably should have had him evaluated a long time ago.

[Tracy]

Before worrying about grade level, I would suggest getting him evaluate for LD's. I would talk all this over with a pediatrician to determine what sort of testing might be in order--maybe an OT evaluation to assess his motor skills; perhaps testing for CAPD.

[MeganW]

I don't think grade level really matters unless you are planning to send your child back to traditional school at some point. You teach to their ability, regardless of the label, right?

 

Here, in public school barring extenuating circumstances, a child born before 8/31/02 would be in 4th grade.

A child born before 8/31/03 would be in 3rd grade.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

Don't worry about along time ago. Don't feel like you did anything wrong, because you didn't. Now you are seeing some challenges so now is a great time for evals. I don't know where you live, but some states you can go through the school district and its free. That is how we did it. I called the Administrative Office and set it up. Know your laws though because some will try to tell you you can't when legally you can. What state do you live in?

[In2why]

This is my first post at 'the Hive.' I've been reading a lot of posts over the last few days and I have gleaned a LOT of information. One thing that I've been wondering about lately is the grade level of my ds9. I did do some searches and found quite a few posts on this topic, but not one that specifically met my needs. So here it goes...let me tell you about my son and see what you think. Thanks for listening and for your input.

 

Ds 9 was a very late talker from the beginning. He had a lot of speech trouble, and at almost 10 (December birthday) he still has trouble with words. He did have some speech therapy when he was little, and hearing tests and such, which all turned out normal, but that's it. He has trouble with singing or talking to fast and getting words all tangled up. While I wouldn't say he studders, sometimes he almost does, if that makes any sense. He actually does echo himself at the end of his words a lot, but not at the beginning. He also had a harder time learning to read than I would say most kids do. He is still doing phonics, and I don't see that ending for the foreseeable future. He just started cursive. He has difficulties reading it, but writes it fine so far. He still has trouble holding his pencil correctly, he wants to cross over his fingers so I'm looking into some sort of pencil grip for him. Even though he does have some trouble with reading and was very late, he has really blossomed in the last year. He LOVES to read, and is reading his Child's History of the World (doing AO year 3 with him) independently now, and I just handed Island Story over to him to do independently as well. He gives me great narrations so I know he is understanding. I do have to tell him to slow down and try to make better sentences when he's narrating or he is a bit all over the place, but as far as information they are sound. His reading out loud still needs quite a bit of work, but it is slowly getting better. We've been quite CM over the past few years and therefore he is just getting to where he would start doing grammar, although I have done some EG with him, and he LOVES the book Grammar Land, so he is getting his basic parts of speech down. I'm going to be starting R&S English grade 2 with him soon. I wondered between 2 and 3, but after looking at the samples I think 2 will be about right for him. He is a terrible speller, but he just got through AAS1 and has started 2 and I can see some improvement. His writing skills are very, very behind that of my oldest son at that age, but I do continue to see small improvements. We are using WWE 2 for him and he's doing well with it, I think. Math, he's behind. He has barely touched multiplication or division at all. He's actually going to be starting R&S math 3.

 

If anyone was darling enough to actually read all of that and help me to critique from an unbiased point of view, thank you so much! I just feel like lately, when people ask what grade he is in, that saying 4th doesn't seem right. Yes, age wise that is what he would be in PS. But he's so not 4th in so many areas. He does not care what grade he is in, and could really care less, so there is no hurting his feelings on this at all. Or do I not worry about it at all and just graduate him in December when he turns 19? Haha now there's some looking ahead into the future. Maybe I'd better slow down. :tongue_smilie: Thanks for listening. It's just been on my mind a lot and I don't have anyone in RL to talk to about it.

 

 

I would certainly get him tested for peace of mind and to know if you need to make adaptations, but since you were using CM is it that he hasn't been introduced to the materials or that he can't grasp the materials? It seems like he is reading independently on level, just having a hard time with reading out loud due to speech issues. Also in math was he presented the math and couldn't keep up, or was he not introduced to a math program with multiplication and division? If it is the later and some of materials are just new to him based on having done CM earlier then perhaps he can accelerate or you can work on gaps instead of it being a learning disability. I know that because we didn't start with Classical learning there are some things we had to drop back and begin at what might be considered behind by WTM standards, and that isn't a learning disability but a teaching disability on my part. :D For example I am happy with his math program but I realized that due to curriculum hopping he isn't strong in word problems so I bought "challenging word problems" from Singapore for first grade so he can learn word problems without the pressure of computation. I also don't think there is anything wrong with dropping back a level in WWE since it is important to work on the skill of narration and dictation and there is quite a jump in spelling and reading in WWE levels. I know there are quite a few middle schoolers who are just beginning WWS even though it it slated to be used after WWE4. These are levels and don't have to match grade.

But have him tested so if there is an issue you can catch it now instead of later, but take a deep breath as well. Even if there are learning disabilities he isn't as far behind as you might think reading WTM. :grouphug:

[prairiegirl]

We were referred to a pediatrician and he is going to find someone to assess dd.

[ondreeuh]

My son turned 10 this summer, and we made the decision to have him "repeat" 4th grade. Our reasoning was that he is almost totally closer to 4th grade skills than 5th, and it made no sense to push him ahead. He sounds a lot like your son - late talker, late reader, weak writer, poor speller. He needs to build up those foundational skills. Although my son is in school, it is a standards-based system so grade levels don't matter. However, he does have to take several standardized tests during the year and I wanted the test to better match his abilities. If he surges ahead when he's older, that's fine. He will graduate when he has mastered the material.

[ElizabethB]

That is normal reading and spelling progress for someone with prior speech problems. With work, you can get closer to grade level and hopefully eventually at grade level.

 

For my students with underlying speech issues, I find a marked print very helpful. CLE has good markings, also the 1908 Webster's Speller and my free online phonics lessons.

 

Also, for my students with prior speech issues, I find this helpful. (Even fully remediated speech, if there was a problem earlier, they find this helpful.)

 

http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/#

 

I also highly recommend you watch the first 4 or 5 (I can't remember if 5 is helpful or not) lectures of Understanding Linguistics together:

 

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=2270

 

I would work through the program on my how to tutor page, moving rapidly through early things, just spelling and reading a few of each word. When you get to Webster's Speller, use the 1908 version with markings.

[PeterPan]

Jennifer, have you ever read about verbal apraxia? It fits the pattern of what you're describing, is commonly linked with dyslexia, and is often MISSED by a regular SLP. A developmental pediatrician or an SLP who specializes in apraxia is better able to diagnose it. In your case, I would go back and get another SLP eval from someone who specializes in apraxia (look at http://www.promptinstitute.com) and get a neuropsych eval. Find a neuropsych who seems to be well-regarded for dyslexia. It might be he's not LD in the sense of incapable but LD in the sense of having learning *differences*. You need the neuropsych eval to help you identify those so you can start teaching to them. Don't skimp on the expense and don't let somebody talk you out of it.

 

I wouldn't fiddle with the grade issue until you've done the evals. Does he fit in well socially when he's with his age-mates? And are they generally called 4th graders? In our area, given his birthday, he would be a 4th grader. Someone had a link a while back showing that across the country there's a general trend toward moving the cutoff dates earlier in states where they have been really late (Dec., etc.). The psych can tell you whether the areas he's behind on are things that can be remediated with some changes, are just going to be weak points (balanced out by other much stronger points), or whether you really ought to call him a grade lower.

 

We also did VT through a COVD doctor, and it helped us immensely. I haven't heard anything you've said that was like a serious red flag, but it's *always* reasonable to get the dc's eyes checked. (I only mention it because someone else did.) If nothing else, get a regular exam through the COVD doc and let them *screen* for the deeper issues. If they find deeper issues, then you do the more thorough eval. Otherwise, it's the same price as anywhere else, just with that extra screening. But DEFINITELY get a neuropsych or edpsych eval. You want to know what's going on so you can start teaching to it. And *I* would be looking into the speech thing. I don't think it's too late to go back and get some good therapy from someone who could find the correct diagnosis and work on his expressive language and word retrieval. There's no reason he should be left to suffer like that. He just doesn't have the correct diagnosis yet.

[Cindy in MO]

My son is mildly dyslexic with mild ADD. He's 13 and should be in 8th grade, but a young 8th grader with a late May birthday. He reads comfortably though not perfecty at a 6th gr level. Because we have been working so hard on the reading, other language arts skills are behind. I decided to keep my son a 7th grader academically for another year. We're not repeating work; we continue to move forward. I felt he would not be ready for high school work in a year. However I do it I figure he will need an extra year before graduation so I decided to do it now to give us some breathing room before high school. Last year when he did his first standardized test, I went a grade lower. He still didn't do very well.

 

My older son sounds a little like yours. He was late doing everything also with a May birthday. I started him later from the beginning; it was perfect for him.

 

Follow your instincts. It's easier to make the change now when he doesn't care.

Cindy

[desiree77]

I call my children by their public school grade level based on age, regardless of ability.

 

I intend to evaluate them at the beginning of high school. If I don't think they can perform to my standards for 9th grade, then I will hold them back. I figure by that time, they will have caught up if they were going to. If they haven't, then we can spend a year remediating.