livingnlearning Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I think this is probably Christianity 101 but I wasn't raised in a church of any kind and my bible study has been sketchy. I just watched the pilot video and it raised a question that I've always had and never understood. How did Christ dying on the cross SAVE a person? Or me, specifically? I don't understand the nature of the sacrifice... Jesus giving eternal life, giving His life for us... I just do not get it. He gave His life for us.. how? Sorry I hope I don't offend with my ignorance and I'm aware that I could ask the question in a church... but right now tonight I'm asking here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeganW Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in with a better answer, but here's the basic thing: The penalty of sin is death. In the Old Testament, animals were sacrificed to "atone" for sin. Christ died for us to pay that penalty, so we wouldn't have to. Check out the videos "What's in the Bible with Buck Denver" - intended for elementary kids, but SOOO enlightening as far as the basics!! I grew up in church, but somehow missed the big picture. I knew all about every parable and Bible story, but had no idea how they all fit together. The videos really helped me understand a LOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creativish Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 can I just add quick that Jesus was sinless. So this is why he was able to be the sacrifice for us all. He was the one and only that followed God's Laws perfectly so he would not have been sentenced to death (unlike everyone else that has sinned and fallen short). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mytwomonkeys Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 i didn't become a christian until i was 23 (40 now), and honestly my thoughts were identical.... truly, it made zero sense to me. i was always told growing up that, "jesus loves me" and "jesus died for me"... "he died for my sins"... but it made no sense whatsoever. when i had someone explain the importance of the sacrifice and what the OT law required, it finally made some logical sense. the book that sealed it for me though spiritually was by oswald chambers, "conformed to his image". anyway. wish i had a lengthy reply that explained it all so well... i just wanted to let you know i also struggled with that exact sentiment. it's a great question!:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 You're going to get a variety of answers - just warning you. . . God is perfectly holy. In His holiness, He can only allow perfect righteousness to be with Him. When Adam sinned, there was a rift between man and God. Death entered as a consequence of sin: spiritual death that was immediate and cut off the relationship between Adam and God, and physical death as a process which started at that moment and culminated years later when Adam's body died. After Adam and Eve, all children born were born with a sinful nature and without a relationship with God. God prepared Jesus Christ as the solution to sin, way back in Eternity Past. Jesus Christ is the God-Man: he is 100% God and 100% man together in one person. He was not born with a sinful nature so that even in His humanity he was sinless. When Jesus Christ went to the cross, he died with no sin. As He was on the cross, He was judged for every sin as a substitute for us - for all the sins of the world, past, present and future. I believe that this happened during the 3 hours of darkness while he was on the cross and was done when He yelled out "It is finished". After that, he physically died. He died physically so that He could be resurrected. When Jesus Christ rose from the dead, He now had a resurrection body, the same kind of resurrection body that Christians will have when they are resurrected after the Judgment. When someone accepts what Jesus Christ did on the cross for them, they are given many invisible things. One of those things is eternal life. Another one of those things is God's righteousness. Now we are able to have a relationship with God, not because of anything we did, but because of what He did for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) You will get different answers, with two basic approaches. One approach will be a "court of law" approach, where what Christ accomplished on the cross was his taking our punishment for us (because we sinned, but he never did, so he was an unblemished sacrifice for us so that we could be saved from hell). The other approach is more therapeutic, if you will (Christ became incarnate -- God in the flesh -- like us, and in giving himself up in death showed us the path to salvation; complete dying to ourselves for the sake of others. In living/dying this way, we become like him, and are joined to him in communion). If you would like to read what the earliest of church believed, which is the therapeutic approach described above, here is an article called Ancestral Sin on that. By the way, in the Orthodox church (which ascribes to this therapeutic approach), we don't believe salvation is a one time event, i.e., pray a prayer (or something similar) and in a moment you're saved from hell. Salvation is a process. So your question about "how did Jesus death on the cross save us?" is a different question to the Eastern Orthodox person than it is to someone from the western Christian traditions. Christ provided salvation on the cross because as we now process through life, learning to die to self (like he did as an example for us), we become united with him. And THIS is salvation -- union with Christ. I hope this helps. ETA - Another article from the Orthodox perspective: Christ's Death: A Rescue Mission, Not a Payment For Sins. Edited September 12, 2011 by milovaný Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvasMom Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 can I just add quick that Jesus was sinless. So this is why he was able to be the sacrifice for us all. He was the one and only that followed God's Laws perfectly so he would not have been sentenced to death (unlike everyone else that has sinned and fallen short). It's not because of what He did or didn't do. It was solely because Jesus was God robed in flesh. Only God Himself can take on the sin of humanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) There a few different schools of thought on this, so it actually may be more confusing than you think. ;) But the article Milovany linked is closest to by beliefs. Edited September 12, 2011 by simka2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 In the Old Testament, animals were sacrificed to "atone" for sin. But how does that make sense? We do something bad, so we kill an animal, and our wrong doing is absolved??? Mankind murders God incarnate and is "rewarded" for the crime? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy the Valiant Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 But how does that make sense? We do something bad, so we kill an animal, and our wrong doing is absolved??? Mankind murders God incarnate and is "rewarded" for the crime? Bill The Old Testament sacrifices were pictures (types) of the shed blood of Jesus Christ (that was happening years hence from the Israelites' sojourns). Mankind didn't murder God - Jesus Christ became incarnate with the singular objective of shedding blood as a sacrifice for us. It's not a black-and-white totally-human-logic thing - that's why it's called faith. :) But it *IS* a faith that is reasonable, that does not contradict reason. (Supra-rational as opposed to irrational.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 After Adam and Eve, all children born were born with a sinful nature and without a relationship with God. If this interpretation of the tales were correct, how would one explain all the figures in the Hebrew Bible who had very direct relationships with God according to the stories? This can't be right. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 There are apparently many schools of thought on this! :) For us, normally we would have to suffer for our own sins, but Christ, who has never sinned, suffered in our place so that we would not have to, if we accept that offering from Him and repent of our sins. He took our place (with His suffering in the Garden and then His death on the cross), so that we do not have to suffer as He did if we will fulfill our part and repent, because He loves us. No unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of heaven, but we are all sinners, and we need Christ's intercession and sacrifice in our place to be clean and enter into our rest with Him. We believe that people can choose to deny Christ's offer, and then they will suffer for their own sins in the hereafter, but it will be their own choice to do so. ETA: The animals sacrifices were a type/symbol to remind the OT folks about Christ's eventual sacrifice, or so I always learned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 The Old Testament sacrifices were pictures (types) of the shed blood of Jesus Christ (that was happening years hence from the Israelites' sojourns). Mankind didn't murder God - Jesus Christ became incarnate with the singular objective of shedding blood as a sacrifice for us. It's not a black-and-white totally-human-logic thing - that's why it's called faith. :) But it *IS* a faith that is reasonable, that does not contradict reason. (Supra-rational as opposed to irrational.) If God is omnipotent why choose such a bloody way to absolve mankind of their sins? And why wait? Why commit genocide against everyone on earth (according to the story) save Noah and his family? I agree that it does not meet human standards of logic, but I disagree with the with the measure of reasonability. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 If this interpretation of the tales were correct, how would one explain all the figures in the Hebrew Bible who had very direct relationships with God according to the stories? This can't be right. Bill Abraham "walked by faith". There were foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ all through the Old Testament - including the entire tabernacle system. Those who accepted the reality behind those types had a relationship with God - sort of on "credit" based on what Jesus Christ would be doing in the future (to them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelwydd Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 You will get different answers, with two basic approaches. One approach will be a "court of law" approach, where what Christ accomplished on the cross was his taking our punishment for us (because we sinned, but he never did, so he was an unblemished sacrifice for us so that we could be saved from hell). The other approach is more therapeutic, if you will (Christ became incarnate -- God in the flesh -- like us, and in giving himself up in death showed us the path to salvation; complete dying to ourselves for the sake of others. In living/dying this way, we become like him, and are joined to him in communion). If you would like to read what the earliest of church believed, which is the therapeutic approach described above, here is an article called Ancestral Sin on that. By the way, in the Orthodox church (which ascribes to this therapeutic approach), we don't believe salvation is a one time event, i.e., pray a prayer (or something similar) and in a moment you're saved from hell. Salvation is a process. So your question about "how did Jesus death on the cross save us?" is a different question to the Eastern Orthodox person than it is to someone from the western Christian traditions. Christ provided salvation on the cross because as we now process through life, learning to die to self (like he did as an example for us), we become united with him. And THIS is salvation -- union with Christ. I hope this helps. ETA - Another article from the Orthodox perspective: Christ's Death: A Rescue Mission, Not a Payment For Sins. Having read about and embraced, the Orthodox view of sin from a catechism years ago, this article was a refreshing reminder of why, as an Anglican, I still look to the East for much of my understanding of theology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mytwomonkeys Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 If this interpretation of the tales were correct, how would one explain all the figures in the Hebrew Bible who had very direct relationships with God according to the stories? This can't be right. Bill in the book by oswald chambers that i mentioned, he says only adam and jesus are actual creations from god. everyone else is a procreation. i found that point interesting. so for those of us that believe all sin is a lineage from adam (recognizing that isn't accepted by all christians), it explains that sin is literally a disposition one is born with, and much more than mere behavior. my point being, god can (and did...and does...) still use imperfect people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingnlearning Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 I'm listening with both ears and discussing as we go with my old school Catholic raised husband. Much of what has been said here strikes a chord with him, it's making some sense to me. I come from a bit of a logical blank slate background...but honestly I feel more and more drawn to the church all the time and I feel like I need an answer to that question for me... it opens a door to me but I don't know which door, if that makes sense. I appreciate all the links and I will read them, have several open now. Let me just say too I love the discussion, I've been talking with DH about it all night. I learn from all of it and I'd hate to see the discussion get all squashed if it goes in the ditch but I certainly understand how important it is to people and how unique. I guess I would say that *I* am listening to anyone that cares to give me an answer and giving equal respect to all... I did not mean to start any arguments and I love the depth of the answers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 If this interpretation of the tales were correct, how would one explain all the figures in the Hebrew Bible who had very direct relationships with God according to the stories? This can't be right. Bill I invite you to read the article I linked above, Bill. It might not answer your question to your satisfaction, but it attempts to portray the ancient church's approach to sin and salvation (which is different from this transactional approach that you're questioning). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Abraham "walked by faith". There were foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ all through the Old Testament - including the entire tabernacle system. Those who accepted the reality behind those types had a relationship with God - sort of on "credit" based on what Jesus Christ would be doing in the future (to them). But Abraham and others had a relationship with God (according to the stories) before there was any manifestation of an earthy-corporal Jesus, and there had certainly been no blood-sacrifice. So this makes your original argument void. Men did have relationships with God (according to the Hebrew scriptures) which had nothing to do with the future death of Jesus. Right? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 But Abraham and others had a relationship with God (according to the stories) before there was any manifestation of an earthy-corporal Jesus, and there had certainly been no blood-sacrifice. So this makes your original argument void. Men did have relationships with God (according to the Hebrew scriptures) which had nothing to do with the future death of Jesus. Right? Bill No - the future death of Jesus was taught right from the start, starting with Adam. (Genesis 3:15 is just one example: "15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall [a]bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.†And there was blood sacrifice from the start - starting with the animals that had to die to clothe Adam. This is why Abel's sacrifice was acceptable to God and not Cain's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatCyndiGirl Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) IMO, to believe it you must first believe that a human sacrifice is necessary to 'cleanse you from sin' and to ensure immortality. That is just not how I view life. I heard it from the cradle on up and it just NEVER resonated with me. I am not saying that to discourage you. If YOU, OP believe that you are by nature sinful and that someone needed to die to 'pay your wages' of sin then the christian story may resonate with YOU. FTR, there were other "born of a virgin/son of god/crucified and rose again'' stories that predate the christian story. ETA: Please do not misinterpret my post as anti-. You seem to be seeking and the initial question at the top of my post is inherent to belief, imo. It was not meant to be anti. Edited September 12, 2011 by ThatCyndiGirl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Bad things happen when one tries to apply logic to matters of faith. Haven't you all read Douglas Adams? Not all Christian sects believe that man is a base creature or is divorced from God. There are other points of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellesmere Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Sorry I hope I don't offend with my ignorance and I'm aware that I could ask the question in a church... but right now tonight I'm asking here. Nothing wrong with asking a genuine question if you have both ears open and are really wanting to learn. I'm so thankful for some people on the board who are very kind to me regarding some of my questions. :) The only thing with your question is you may (not saying you have to, you may be fine without this advice) want to somehow find out what POV the person answering the question is coming from. Otherwise it can be baffling to hear one Christians defining salvation, talking about atonement, and/or defining the term "born again" in what seems to be opposing thoughts. Best wishes as you discuss and learn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Twain Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 If this interpretation of the tales were correct, how would one explain all the figures in the Hebrew Bible who had very direct relationships with God according to the stories? This can't be right. Bill Bill, You said in another thread that you are Jewish, but it sounds like from what you just said that you don't believe in the Hebrew scriptures at all. Do you even believe in God? Or have you made up your own religion? Just wondering why you are involved in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingnlearning Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 IMO, to believe it you must first believe that a human sacrifice is necessary to 'cleanse you from sin' and to ensure immortality. That is just not how I view life. I heard it from the cradle on up and it just NEVER resonated with me. I am not saying that to discourage you. If YOU, OP believe that you are by nature sinful and that someone needed to die to 'pay your wages' of sin then the christian story may resonate with YOU. FTR, there were other "born of a virgin/son of god/crucified and rose again'' stories that predate the christian story. ETA: Please do not misinterpret my post as anti-. You seem to be seeking and the initial question at the top of my post is inherent to belief, imo. It was not meant to be anti. TCG-I think we see things with the same eyeballs... I am seeking but I want to decide for myself if that makes sense. YOu feel like you're coming from the same place and I feel like I can identify with you... Bad things happen when one tries to apply logic to matters of faith. Haven't you all read Douglas Adams? Not all Christian sects believe that man is a base creature or is divorced from God. There are other points of view. Agreed. I'm delving in a "willing suspension of disbelief"... I'm venturing off my shelf a bit which isn't to say I'm not spiritual which I completely am... and I have read Douglas Adams quite a bit; I have a BA of English Lit Nothing wrong with asking a genuine question if you have both ears open and are really wanting to learn. I'm so thankful for some people on the board who are very kind to me regarding some of my questions. :) The only thing with your question is you may (not saying you have to, you may be fine without this advice) want to somehow find out what POV the person answering the question is coming from. Otherwise it can be baffling to hear one Christians defining salvation, talking about atonement, and/or defining the term "born again" in what seems to be opposing thoughts. Best wishes as you discuss and learn! I completely want to hear all aspects, whatever people want to tell me. I can sort it, I have different churches to turn to... I have my heart and instincts that I trust... it was a very very genuine question that I hope wasn't too big... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Bill, You said in another thread that you are Jewish, but it sounds like from what you just said that you don't believe in the Hebrew scriptures at all. Do you even believe in God? Or have you made up your own religion? Just wondering why you are involved in this thread. I've never said I was Jewish. I've had a life-long exposure to many Jewish friends, and have done a good dead of study of that faith, but I am not Jewish. Saying that the stories in the Hebrew Bible show men having relationships with God is accurate. I am not religious. But I do have an interest in Mythology and Comparative Theology. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 This is a loaded question, and one that no one has the ideal answer for...its one of those things where we know it happened, but not the exact mechanism. At least, i don't believe anyone who says they fully understand exactly how it works. But, in a nutshell.....somehow, we got really messed up with God. We sin, which leads us away from God. Somehow, someway, Jesus's death fixes that. Now as for the how, there are various theories. Basically, he pays our debt for us. That makes some sense. A better explanation, for me, is found in Mere Christianty, which I am not going to try to recreate here right now, with no sleep and cold medicine in me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellesmere Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I completely want to hear all aspects, whatever people want to tell me. I can sort it, I have different churches to turn to... I have my heart and instincts that I trust... it was a very very genuine question that I hope wasn't too big... Oh, I wasn't in doubt that you were genuinely open to all aspects. I didn't mean to imply that you can't sort it, either. I'm not familiar with you on here at all, so of course I have no idea what your background is, that's all. And as you can see other people will join the discussion and not everyone may be able to sort as you can. Not everyone feels they have different churches to turn to, either, but I'm glad you do. It's not that it is too big. It's just that you will get a lot of different answers from people who define common Christian terms so differently. (For example, I don't "count" as a Christian to some of my friends because I'm not following the teachings of their sect. We have to first define terms before we discuss rebirth, regeneration, salvation, baptism, etc. So one question can become big if the terms aren't defined clearly. Not saying that will happen in this thread at all, btw.) I hope I didn't come across as critical. I meant it in a friendly spirit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 No - the future death of Jesus was taught right from the start, starting with Adam. (Genesis 3:15 is just one example: "15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall [a]bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” Sorry to be dense Jean, but how do these verse presuppose Jesus? And there was blood sacrifice from the start - starting with the animals that had to die to clothe Adam. This is why Abel's sacrifice was acceptable to God and not Cain's. Well Adam and Eve (according to the story) seemed content with using fig-leaves. I'm not sure the point you are trying to make. Are you trying to say the God in these stories has blood-lust? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 This is a loaded question, and one that no one has the ideal answer for...its one of those things where we know it happened, but not the exact mechanism. At least, i don't believe anyone who says they fully understand exactly how it works. But, in a nutshell.....somehow, we got really messed up with God. We sin, which leads us away from God. Somehow, someway, Jesus's death fixes that. Now as for the how, there are various theories. Basically, he pays our debt for us. That makes some sense. A better explanation, for me, is found in Mere Christianty, which I am not going to try to recreate here right now, with no sleep and cold medicine in me. :iagree:I think that trying to boil it down to only one analogy being the right one is... impossible. God is bigger than one analogy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingnlearning Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 Oh, I wasn't in doubt that you were genuinely open to all aspects. I didn't mean to imply that you can't sort it, either. I'm not familiar with you on here at all, so of course I have no idea what your background is, that's all. And as you can see other people will join the discussion and not everyone may be able to sort as you can. Not everyone feels they have different churches to turn to, either, but I'm glad you do. It's not that it is too big. It's just that you will get a lot of different answers from people who define common Christian terms so differently. (For example, I don't "count" as a Christian to some of my friends because I'm not following the teachings of their sect. We have to first define terms before we discuss rebirth, regeneration, salvation, baptism, etc. So one question can become big if the terms aren't defined clearly. Not saying that will happen in this thread at all, btw.) I hope I didn't come across as critical. I meant it in a friendly spirit. No you're not critical.. it's a little frustrating I guess. I am wide open, curious for an answer but from a critical/logical background... maybe there isn't a <go this way> sign for me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 You're going to get a variety of answers - just warning you. . . God is perfectly holy. In His holiness, He can only allow perfect righteousness to be with Him. When Adam sinned, there was a rift between man and God. Death entered as a consequence of sin: spiritual death that was immediate and cut off the relationship between Adam and God, and physical death as a process which started at that moment and culminated years later when Adam's body died. After Adam and Eve, all children born were born with a sinful nature and without a relationship with God. God prepared Jesus Christ as the solution to sin, way back in Eternity Past. Jesus Christ is the God-Man: he is 100% God and 100% man together in one person. He was not born with a sinful nature so that even in His humanity he was sinless. When Jesus Christ went to the cross, he died with no sin. As He was on the cross, He was judged for every sin as a substitute for us - for all the sins of the world, past, present and future. I believe that this happened during the 3 hours of darkness while he was on the cross and was done when He yelled out "It is finished". After that, he physically died. He died physically so that He could be resurrected. When Jesus Christ rose from the dead, He now had a resurrection body, the same kind of resurrection body that Christians will have when they are resurrected after the Judgment. When someone accepts what Jesus Christ did on the cross for them, they are given many invisible things. One of those things is eternal life. Another one of those things is God's righteousness. Now we are able to have a relationship with God, not because of anything we did, but because of what He did for us. As to the bolded - why? If god is perfect, are not perfect love, forgiveness, mercy, and acceptance part of that? Why would god cast away something not perfect? I understand where Bill is coming from as well, but I have never gotten that far. I always get hung up on this initial premise. Not being snarky, I just have truly never heard an answer that made sense to me. And I have asked many times (much of my family is very conservative Christian). Mrs. Mungo - can you link something about these other denominations that start from a different premise, where man is not divorced from god? I would like to learn more about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Here is a good basic explanation from an LDS point of view. It's a talk given at our church's general conference in 1996 by Russell M. Nelson, one of the apostles in our church. (He was a doctor before his call to the apostleship, which I think is interesting to know in light of some of his comments.) http://lds.org/general-conference/1996/10/the-atonement?lang=eng&query=atonement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Sorry to be dense Jean, but how do these verse presuppose Jesus? This particular part is directed to the serpent, who was taken over by Satan (there are other verses in the NT which confirm this.) It is a prophecy that Satan will bruise Jesus' heel through the crucifixion but Jesus will crush his head (a death blow) through the resurrection. Well Adam and Eve (according to the story) seemed content with using fig-leaves. I'm not sure the point you are trying to make. Are you trying to say the God in these stories has blood-lust? Bill No, God is pointing out that sin always has the consequence of death. (Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.") Those animals that gave up their skins were innocent creatures who gave their life for Adam and Eve, just as Jesus Christ was innocent and gave His life for ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 No, God is pointing out that sin always has the consequence of death. Those animals that gave up their skins were innocent creatures who gave their life for Adam and Eve, just as Jesus Christ was innocent and gave His life for ours. First, can you explain how the Genesis quote refers to Jesus? Second, why does God kill innocent creatures when "man" seems content with vegetable wrappings? Why is he only happy with dead animals as tribute? If the divine being in these stories is "good" why is he killing innocent creatures? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) Mrs. Mungo - can you link something about these other denominations that start from a different premise, where man is not divorced from god? I would like to learn more about them. Not Mrs. Mungo, but hope you don't mind if I link one: Eastern Orthodoxy. Nowhere in Orthodoxy is the premise that God has turned his back on mankind. That's not to say we don't all need healing from our separation from God (because we ARE separated from God and do need to return to that communion), but it's not a wrath/appeasement/justified-in-a-moment approach. It's a compassion/love/walk-in-God's-ways-and-be-healed approach. Edited September 12, 2011 by milovaný Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 As to the bolded - why? If god is perfect, are not perfect love, forgiveness, mercy, and acceptance part of that? Why would god cast away something not perfect? I understand where Bill is coming from as well, but I have never gotten that far. I always get hung up on this initial premise. Not being snarky, I just have truly never heard an answer that made sense to me. And I have asked many times (much of my family is very conservative Christian). God cannot contradict Himself. His perfect love cannot contradict His perfect holiness. So while His perfect Holiness requires separation from sin, His perfect love provided the way for us to have a relationship with Him - through what Jesus Christ did for us. Christ's holiness which has been given to me through His merciful act on the cross is what allows me to have perfect forgiveness and acceptance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellesmere Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 No you're not critical.. it's a little frustrating I guess. I am wide open, curious for an answer but from a critical/logical background... maybe there isn't a <go this way> sign for me... Oh, good. I hope I don't add to any frustration, too. Have you read Mere Christianity? I don't even know if it would help; it's been awhile since I read it. I'm not selling anything. C.S. Lewis was writing as a lay person in the Anglican church and I'm not Anglican. (FWIW, it's popular among groups that I'm no part of, too.) So, I'm not trying to push anything on you. But I think Lewis had at least four ministers from other Christian denominations (Catholic, Methodist, and I don't remember what else) look at his manuscript and he asked for their feedback. They found general agreement. I can't say it as well as he, but he described part of the journey as being in the hall waiting to enter a room. Some find the room easily, some do wait in the hall longer. That helped me while I was waiting in the hall. Might not do anything for you, but just tossing it out there. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susankenny Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 That's not to say we don't all need healing from our separation from God (because we ARE separated from God and do need to return to that communion), but it's not a wrath/appeasement approach. It's a compassion/love approach. I've attended several denominations, and it was always preached to the congregation from a POV regarding God's love for us & not His wrath (of why Jesus came and died). I don't think that mindset is exclusive to Eastern Orthodox perspective. Susan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I've attended several denominations, and it was always preached to the congregation from a POV regarding God's love for us & not His wrath (of why Jesus came and died). I don't think that mindset is exclusive to Eastern Orthodox perspective. Susan You are correct. It isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) I've attended several denominations, and it was always preached to the congregation from a POV regarding God's love for us & not His wrath (of why Jesus came and died). I don't think that mindset is exclusive to Eastern Orthodox perspective. I was solely speaking for the EO perspective, not saying there might not be others. I apologize, Susan, if it seemed as if I was. I just can't speak for others with which I have no familiarity. In the denominations you are familiar with, in their "love" approach, did they also stay away from the "Christ died as a sacrifice for your sins; he took your punishment for you on the cross" approach? None that I'd ever been a part of before had done that, but my experience was limited to evangelical, charismatic, Baptist and independent churches. Edited September 12, 2011 by milovaný Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 God cannot contradict Himself. His perfect love cannot contradict His perfect holiness. So while His perfect Holiness requires separation from sin, His perfect love provided the way for us to have a relationship with Him - through what Jesus Christ did for us. Christ's holiness which has been given to me through His merciful act on the cross is what allows me to have perfect forgiveness and acceptance. Okay, I get the internal logic of it if you posit that perfect holiness requires separation from sin. (I don't necessarily agree that humans are inherently sinful, but that is a different point entirely.) But why does perfect holiness require separation from sin? To think that our sinfulness could somehow damage god's perfection seems...wrong is the least contentious word I can think of. To say that our sin irritates god would also seem to impugn god's perfection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 This particular part is directed to the serpent, who was taken over by Satan (there are other verses in the NT which confirm this.) It is a prophecy that Satan will bruise Jesus' heel through the crucifixion but Jesus will crush his head (a death blow) through the resurrection. This interpretation would mean that the murder of God (in the earthy form of Jesus) was the act of Satan, rather than an act of God willingly sacrificing the human part of one of his personages, yes? Such an interpretation would undo most of what I understand to be a bed-rock of the Christian story. No, God is pointing out that sin always has the consequence of death. (Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.") Those animals that gave up their skins were innocent creatures who gave their life for Adam and Eve, just as Jesus Christ was innocent and gave His life for ours. Sorry, but I just don't see how killing innocent animals strokes for wrong doings. This strike me as very illogical. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Not Mrs. Mungo, but hope you don't mind if I link one: Eastern Orthodoxy. Nowhere in Orthodoxy is the premise that God has turned his back on mankind. That's not to say we don't all need healing from our separation from God (because we ARE separated from God and do need to return to that communion), but it's not a wrath/appeasement/justified-in-a-moment approach. It's a compassion/love/walk-in-God's-ways-and-be-healed approach. Thank you for the link. It is too late to wade through it tonight, but I have bookmarked it. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Thank you for the link. It is too late to wade through it tonight, but I have bookmarked it. :) Agreed! 4:15 comes early. I need to get to bed, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Agreed! 4:15 comes early. I need to get to bed, too. :svengo: Yes you do! Off to bed with you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 :svengo: Yes you do! Off to bed with you! :auto: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Spycar, It's fine if you don't believe any of it, but I think the OP was asking a person of Christian faith to explain why the Jesus he/she believes in could remove sin by dying. Just wondering if you feel the need to try to make people of all faiths feel ridiculous or just Christians. I mean, I would never presume to explain to someone why Mythology and Comparative Religion makes no sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Spycar, It's fine if you don't believe any of it, but I think the OP was asking a person of Christian faith to explain why the Jesus he/she believes in could remove sin by dying. Just wondering if you feel the need to try to make people of all faiths feel ridiculous or just Christians. I mean, I would never presume to explain to someone why Mythology and Comparative Religion makes no sense. I'm sorry if my asking questions makes you feel ridiculous. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I'm sorry if my asking questions makes you feel ridiculous. Bill And, you are smart enough to know that's not what I'm saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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