Can you be a Christian and still

[Ipsey]

We're producing people like that???????? I don't even know how to respond to this statement.

 

How do we know what kind of background they came from?

 

It's easy enough to look up.

 

This is the No True Scotsman Fallacy taken to extremes! Not only are these people, who spout Bible verses and Jesus and God not Christians, they didn't even come out of Christian homes. Probably never set foot in a Church! Probably didn't even grow up in America, where Christianity is the dominant religion!

 

Where did they come from, I wonder? Hmmmmm.

[astrid]

I didn't say they don't exist. It just seemed that you were trying to imply that it is a common thing. I don't believe that at all. Their are nominal Christians blowing up abortion clinics and boycotting the funerals of those who fight for our freedom. That shouldn't reflect on this perfectly civilized-even loving discussion anymore than we should start throwing out generalizations about the homosexual community.

 

 

But if homeschoolers were blowing up public schools, and homeschooling parents were picketing parent-teacher conferences at elementary schools, wouldn't it reflect on the homeschooling community as a whole?

 

These fanatical Christians formulated their beliefs and values in a Christian environment, where these seeds of hatred were planted in the name of the Bible. Perhaps mental illness twisted those words, but the fact remains that children don't laugh and call each other "drunks" as a derisive adjective. They call each other "faggot" or say, "You're so GAY!" to express negative sentiments and hurt and insult others. They learn this somewhere. Preachers railing against homosexuality from the pulpit nurture those seeds, and millions of dollars are spent lobbying to deny the rights of those who love differently.

 

The irony is that those crimes are often committed in the name of one who preached love and kindness and the value of human lives.

 

astrid

Edited September 10, 2011 by astrid
spelling!

[SeekingHim77]

It's easy enough to look up.

 

This is the No True Scotsman Fallacy taken to extremes! Not only are these people, who spout Bible verses and Jesus and God not Christians, they didn't even come out of Christian homes. Probably never set foot in a Church! Probably didn't even grow up in America, where Christianity is the dominant religion!

 

Where did they come from, I wonder? Hmmmmm.

 

People make choices-they are not produced. If someone wants to take God's word and twist it for their own hateful purposes-that does not reflect on God's word. It reflects on the individual.

 

I mean, yes, I understand what you're trying to say. I just think if we were to follow that logic-what we're producing-it could lead to some pretty scary places. Wherever there is good you will find people trying to twist it and use it for their own evil purposes. That does not mean the good thing has produced the evil.

[WishboneDawn]

We're producing people like that???????? I don't even know how to respond to this statement.

 

How do we know what kind of background they came from?

 

Wikipedia. :D

 

Phelps started attending a Methodist church at 16. Paul Hill, who murdered an abortion doctor, was converted at 19 and went on to be educated at Christian colleges and became a Presbyterian minister.

 

These were people quite familiar with Christianity. They're not outsiders.

 

I didn't mean to offend when I said we produce these people. I meant to say that these people didn't pop up fully formed radicals and hate-mongers. Hill especially. To get to that point of radicalism he must have found some reinforcement in his faith/faith community, especially if he reached the point of becoming a minister.

 

I doubt many Christian communities set out to produce murderers but they may harbour sentiments that give fuel to those who have that bent. They may fail to recognize what they have in their midst because he's a "good Christian." They may fail to emphasize that, above all, we have a duty to love others as ourselves. We're less a factory filled with intent then enablers who excuse troubling signs when we notice them.

 

I'm trying not to be provocative here. Don't think of me as being accusatory. I'm just attempting to challenge us a little on how we think about our faith and our responsibility to hold others Christians to account and to protect even those we'd label sinners.

[WishboneDawn]

People make choices-they are not produced. If someone wants to take God's word and twist it for their own hateful purposes-that does not reflect on God's word. It reflects on the individual.

 

But between the individual and God's Word is the Christian community. I'm not pointing the finger at God, I'm pointing it at us.

[SeekingHim77]

But if homeschoolers were blowing up public schools, and homeschooling parents were picketing parent-teacher conferences at elementary schools, wouldn't it reflect on the homeschooling community as a whole?

 

These fanatical Christians formulated their beliefs and values in a Christian environment, where these seeds of hatred were planted in the name of the Bible. Perhaps mental illness twisted those words, but the fact remains that children don't laugh and call each other "drunks" as a derisive adjective. They call each other "faggot" or say, "You're so GAY!" to express negative sentiments and hurt and insult others. They learn this somewhere. Preachers railing against homosexuality from the pulpit nurture those seeds, and millions of dollars are spent lobbying to deny the rights of those who love differently.

 

The irony is that those crimes are often committed in the name of one who preached love and kindness and the value of human lives.

 

astrid

 

I know of homeschooling cases where the parents have molested their children, murdered their children, etc. Do you want to be judged by their actions?

 

People kill in the name of God, Christ, Mohammed, etc. Their is evil in this world-that should not reflect or take away from the good even if the evil associate themselves with the it.

[WishboneDawn]

Fair enough, but here is what a previous poster said,

 

"The hatred, the killing, the humiliation towards homosexuals (and anyone else who lives a lifestyle that the Bible states is sinful) is not from true Christians. I think this discussion is evidence that true Christians would never behave in such a manner."

 

I can't think of a single thread where Christianity is invoked in some violent/scary way where someone doesn't jump in and say "These aren't true Christians!"

 

That's where I was saying the "No True Scotsman Fallacy" was coming into play.

 

Not every Christian does this. I apologize for not being careful enough with my phrasing.

 

I'll try again. Many times, where a Christian does something violent/bad, some Christians will jump up and say, "They aren't true Christians." In fact, it' so common, it's often used as an example of "The No True Scotsman Fallacy"

 

I wish it were true that Christians didn't do vile and dangerous things. But it ain't so. I wish True Christians--or the "Really True True Christians" could really see that.

 

:iagree:

 

It only took me a couple of years of being badgered by atheists on an atheist debate board to get that too! :D

[SeekingHim77]

Wikipedia. :D

 

Phelps started attending a Methodist church at 16. Paul Hill, who murdered an abortion doctor, was converted at 19 and went on to be educated at Christian colleges and became a Presbyterian minister.

 

These were people quite familiar with Christianity. They're not outsiders.

 

I didn't mean to offend when I said we produce these people. I meant to say that these people didn't pop up fully formed radicals and hate-mongers. Hill especially. To get to that point of radicalism he must have found some reinforcement in his faith/faith community, especially if he less a factory filled with intent then enablers who excuse troubling signs when we notice them.

 

I'm trying not to be provocative here. Don't think of me as being accusatory. I'm just attempting to challenge us a little on how we think about our faith and our responsibility to hold others Christians to account and to protect even those we'd label sinners.

 

Thank you for this post. I see what you mean now and you've given me some food for thought. :001_smile: I'm still not saying that I completely agree with you but I do feel like I have a little more perspective.

[WishboneDawn]

Thank you for this post. I see what you mean now and you've given me some food for thought. :001_smile: I'm still not saying that I completely agree with you but I do feel like I have a little more perspective.

 

Thanks! That's what I'm looking for...Agreement is probably a little much, understanding though,we can get too. :001_smile:

[LanaTron]

Then the answer may well be no but when major churches like the Episcopal churches are ordaining homosexual bishops, the answer to the original question is quite obviously yes.

 

 

Unfortunately, though, this has caused schism within the Episcopal Church, and is still causing issues within the Anglican Communion. There have been, for example, entire parishes leaving the Episcopal Church, and joining the (Anglican) Church of Uganda, which has very conservative views on homosexuality. Indeed, in the Ugandan parliament, legislation has been introduced that says it's okay to kill known homosexuals...and the Church of Uganda has not spoken out against this (as far as I know), although I think there are individual priests who have.

 

There have also been lawsuits in the U.S. over buildings, money, and property when a parish leaves TEC for one of these other Anglican churches...it's all very ugly.

 

I was confirmend as an Episcopalian one year ago. I love this church, and finally feel like I have found a permanent spiritual home. I'm still trying to sort out all the goings on over the gay bishops (only 2, and one is retiring)...and may have some of my information wrong, so forgive me if I do.

 

I think things are starting to settle out at this point, at least in the U.S., but within the worldwide Aglican Communion...let's just say that at the last Primate's Conference, the head Bishop of the Church of Uganda refused to sit at the conference if Bishop Schori (of TEC) was going to be there. yuk

[Ellesmere]

WOW, I came back in to check all the responses, and this thread is 16 pages long!

 

I really appreciate all the feedback because I have been really torn up about this.

 

I do not have many real life friends. Because no matter who you are, what you look like, what your lifestyle is. If you treat me like dog-doo, I don't need you in my life.

 

Two of the couples I am BF's with, have never once stabbed me in the back, and have the kindest hearts of anyone I know. How could I possibly condemn them? It is the intent of their heart that matter to me. People who are there for me and my family. That is what friendship is about. They don't judge me for the things I do. So why should I judge them?

 

And I sin every.day.

Sorry you are having trouble IRL with this. I know it's hard.

 

 

We, as Christians, have a lot to account for so it shouldn't be surprising that some will call us on the issue. It's probably a hard line to ask people to accept to then say, "I do think it's a sin but I love the gay people I know." But does that mean we don't give our money to groups that exclude gay people (like the HSLDA) or work to prevent initiatives in secular government to extend certain rights (like marriage) to LBGT people?

 

:iagree:

 

 

We're producing people like that???????? I don't even know how to respond to this statement.

 

How do we know what kind of background they came from?

As far as I know, he came from some sort of Christian background. If you mean Fred Phelps, he did some time at BJU and self-IDs as a Baptist.

 

I know plenty of Christians that only disagree with what Phelps does, but not necessarily his views. Unfortunately.

[WishboneDawn]

Unfortunately, though, this has caused schism within the Episcopal Church, and is still causing issues within the Anglican Communion. There have been, for example, entire parishes leaving the Episcopal Church, and joining the (Anglican) Church of Uganda, which has very conservative views on homosexuality. Indeed, in the Ugandan parliament, legislation has been introduced that says it's okay to kill known homosexuals...and the Church of Uganda has not spoken out against this (as far as I know), although I think there are individual priests who have.

 

There have also been lawsuits in the U.S. over buildings, money, and property when a parish leaves TEC for one of these other Anglican churches...it's all very ugly.

 

I was confirmend as an Episcopalian one year ago. I love this church, and finally feel like I have found a permanent spiritual home. I'm still trying to sort out all the goings on over the gay bishops (only 2, and one is retiring)...and may have some of my information wrong, so forgive me if I do.

 

I think things are starting to settle out at this point, at least in the U.S., but within the worldwide Aglican Communion...let's just say that at the last Primate's Conference, the head Bishop of the Church of Uganda refused to sit at the conference if Bishop Schori (of TEC) was going to be there. yuk

 

I'm Anglican too. :) You're right about what's going on now and I think it's a horrible shame. It always seemed to me that the great thing about the Anglican church was the fact that we worked to maintain the communion despite the diversity of beliefs in our church.

[LanaTron]

"...we worked to maintain the communion despite the diversity of beliefs..." Yes, and to me that is a true expression of the love of Christ, and a big part of what drew me to this church. The particular parish dh and I belong to is an incredible mix of political/social beliefs, and they had some issues a number of years ago when Bishop Robinson was elected. The parish members came through that, and learned how to love each other even if they don't agree with each other on the issue. I love that!

[Dustybug]

I believe God's word is true. If He calls it sin then far be it from me to excuse it.

 

Though all people do sin, Christians shouldn't willfully, continually engage in sin. True repentance means turning away from my sin-not asking for forgiveness when I know I will (by choice) engage in said activity again.

 

We all have different temptations to overcome. God is good and He will always provide a way out of sin. His Spirit will always supply the strength we need to change. We are new creations in Christ and are to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

 

I don't "try to save" anyone. I will more than gladly share my faith with anyone who is interested but I don't push my beliefs on anyone just as I don't want anyone to push their beliefs on me. Besides, only God saves.

 

Homosexuals deserve to be treated with all the respect that any other person deserves-not because they are homosexual-not in spite of their homosexuality but because they are human and created in God's image just as we all are.

 

We should treat others like we want to be treated-all others. :001_smile:

 

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

I would like to add too, that calling oneself a "Christian" does not necessarily a "Christian" make. That term is thrown around so loosely that it doesn't mean the same thing to two people at a time.

[asta]

People make choices-they are not produced. If someone wants to take God's word and twist it for their own hateful purposes-that does not reflect on God's word. It reflects on the individual.

 

I mean, yes, I understand what you're trying to say. I just think if we were to follow that logic-what we're producing-it could lead to some pretty scary places. Wherever there is good you will find people trying to twist it and use it for their own evil purposes. That does not mean the good thing has produced the evil.

 

Twenty-two pages. Time to invoke Godwin's Law.

 

 

Wikipedia. :D

 

Phelps started attending a Methodist church at 16. Paul Hill, who murdered an abortion doctor, was converted at 19 and went on to be educated at Christian colleges and became a Presbyterian minister.

 

These were people quite familiar with Christianity. They're not outsiders.

 

I didn't mean to offend when I said we produce these people. I meant to say that these people didn't pop up fully formed radicals and hate-mongers. Hill especially. To get to that point of radicalism he must have found some reinforcement in his faith/faith community, especially if he reached the point of becoming a minister.

 

I doubt many Christian communities set out to produce murderers but they may harbour sentiments that give fuel to those who have that bent. They may fail to recognize what they have in their midst because he's a "good Christian." They may fail to emphasize that, above all, we have a duty to love others as ourselves. We're less a factory filled with intent then enablers who excuse troubling signs when we notice them.

 

I'm trying not to be provocative here. Don't think of me as being accusatory. I'm just attempting to challenge us a little on how we think about our faith and our responsibility to hold others Christians to account and to protect even those we'd label sinners.

 

This

 

I know of homeschooling cases where the parents have molested their children, murdered their children, etc. Do you want to be judged by their actions?

 

People kill in the name of God, Christ, Mohammed, etc. There is evil in this world-that should not reflect or take away from the good even if the evil associate themselves with the it.

 

And this.

 

How very prescient considering what events we are remembering this weekend.

 

 

a

[twoforjoy]

If I say being a drunkard is a sin, noone is going to accuse me of hate mongering. If I say fornication is a sin, I'm not going to be accused of it either. Why is the hate mongering card pulled out only when Christians call homosexuality a sin?

 

I just wanted to briefly address this.

 

I think the difference is that, if you ask alcoholics if they feel hated by Christians, they'll say no. In general, their Christian families haven't rejected them; their Christian churches haven't treated them as the worst sinners around and as being responsible for the downfall of civilization; and they don't see Christian public figures going on the news talking about the evils of alcoholics and trying to deny equal rights to people who drink.

 

Same thing with premarital sex. Sure, most people know that premarital sex is considered a sin by Christians. But, I don't know anybody who feels like Christians hate people who have premarital sex. There aren't public campaigns to deny equal rights to people who have premarital sex. People who have premarital sex aren't held up as the worst sinners there are. In fact, in pretty much every church, there are couples living together outside of marriage and having sex, and in most cases it's pretty much just ignored. Plus, they know that they can just get married and all will be forgiven. I was raised in a Catholic home, and I was fully aware of the teaching on premarital sex. But, I didn't feel like the church would hate me or reject me if I had premarital sex. Because, they wouldn't.

 

But, gay people feel hated by Christians. And, let's face it: they have really, really good reason for feeling that way. This isn't just about Fred Phelps. It's about the many, many churches that hold homosexuality up as somehow worse than any other sin. It's about the Christian public figures who go on and on about how homosexuality is destroying the family and our society, without making a comment about divorce or greed or any of the other issues that are much, much more widespread and so more destructive. It's about the families that kick out their gay children, and the churches that seem willing to welcome all sinners except gay people.

 

People aren't stupid: they know the difference between love and hate. And when gay people are saying, over and over, that they do NOT feel loved by the way Christians treat them, but actually feel hated, I think Christians need to take that very, very seriously. I think we need to not only take it seriously, but shut up and listen to them, rather than immediately trying to justify the position taken by so many Christians. And then we need to repent of how much pain we've caused. Whether or not somebody thinks homosexuality is a sin, the amount of pain that Christians have caused gay people absolutely is a sin. It has torn apart families, broken friendships, and caused many people to turn away from God (either because they've been told that God doesn't want anything to do with them until they change, or because they want nothing to do with a God who would inspire hate and prejudice).

 

If Christians who think homosexuality is a sin really did treat it just like any other sin--if they talked about it no differently and no more than they talked about greed or drunkenness or premarital sex or gossip--then gay people would feel no more hated and no less welcomed by Christians than any other group. The reason they do feel more hated and less welcome is because Christians have, in general, elevated homosexuality to some special status as the worst/most destructive/most disgusting/most unforgivable sin, probably because it's the one sin--assuming it's seen as a sin--that, simply due to demographics (gay people make up a very small percentage of the population), most Christians can be completely sure that they aren't and won't be committing.

[Ipsey]

:iagree:

 

It only took me a couple of years of being badgered by atheists on an atheist debate board to get that too! :D

 

:iagree:

 

Me too :)

 

I used to be on the other side of this argument. Bible blazing! ;)

[Orthodox6]

This post is not related to the thread, but a paragraph I just read prompts an answer.

 

Homeschoolers ARE judged by these actions. Often I have been reading or hearing about a parental crime against children, and one of the early question asked by more than one person is, "Were they homeschoolers?" As a class, we definitely are considered suspect by the general public.

 

 

 

I know of homeschooling cases where the parents have molested their children, murdered their children, etc. Do you want to be judged by their actions?

.

[Ipsey]

I just wanted to briefly address this.

 

I think the difference is that, if you ask alcoholics if they feel hated by Christians, they'll say no. In general, their Christian families haven't rejected them; their Christian churches haven't treated them as the worst sinners around and as being responsible for the downfall of civilization; and they don't see Christian public figures going on the news talking about the evils of alcoholics and trying to deny equal rights to people who drink.

 

Same thing with premarital sex. Sure, most people know that premarital sex is considered a sin by Christians. But, I don't know anybody who feels like Christians hate people who have premarital sex. There aren't public campaigns to deny equal rights to people who have premarital sex. People who have premarital sex aren't held up as the worst sinners there are. In fact, in pretty much every church, there are couples living together outside of marriage and having sex, and in most cases it's pretty much just ignored. Plus, they know that they can just get married and all will be forgiven. I was raised in a Catholic home, and I was fully aware of the teaching on premarital sex. But, I didn't feel like the church would hate me or reject me if I had premarital sex. Because, they wouldn't.

 

But, gay people feel hated by Christians. And, let's face it: they have really, really good reason for feeling that way. This isn't just about Fred Phelps. It's about the many, many churches that hold homosexuality up as somehow worse than any other sin. It's about the Christian public figures who go on and on about how homosexuality is destroying the family and our society, without making a comment about divorce or greed or any of the other issues that are much, much more widespread and so more destructive. It's about the families that kick out their gay children, and the churches that seem willing to welcome all sinners except gay people.

 

People aren't stupid: they know the difference between love and hate. And when gay people are saying, over and over, that they do NOT feel loved by the way Christians treat them, but actually feel hated, I think Christians need to take that very, very seriously. I think we need to not only take it seriously, but shut up and listen to them, rather than immediately trying to justify the position taken by so many Christians. And then we need to repent of how much pain we've caused. Whether or not somebody thinks homosexuality is a sin, the amount of pain that Christians have caused gay people absolutely is a sin. It has torn apart families, broken friendships, and caused many people to turn away from God (either because they've been told that God doesn't want anything to do with them until they change, or because they want nothing to do with a God who would inspire hate and prejudice).

 

If Christians who think homosexuality is a sin really did treat it just like any other sin--if they talked about it no differently and no more than they talked about greed or drunkenness or premarital sex or gossip--then gay people would feel no more hated and no less welcomed by Christians than any other group. The reason they do feel more hated and less welcome is because Christians have, in general, elevated homosexuality to some special status as the worst/most destructive/most disgusting/most unforgivable sin, probably because it's the one sin--assuming it's seen as a sin--that, simply due to demographics (gay people make up a very small percentage of the population), most Christians can be completely sure that they aren't and won't be committing.

 

:hurray:

 

That was terrif!

[sunflowerlady]

I just wanted to briefly address this.

 

I think the difference is that, if you ask alcoholics if they feel hated by Christians, they'll say no. In general, their Christian families haven't rejected them; their Christian churches haven't treated them as the worst sinners around and as being responsible for the downfall of civilization; and they don't see Christian public figures going on the news talking about the evils of alcoholics and trying to deny equal rights to people who drink.

 

Same thing with premarital sex. Sure, most people know that premarital sex is considered a sin by Christians. But, I don't know anybody who feels like Christians hate people who have premarital sex. There aren't public campaigns to deny equal rights to people who have premarital sex. People who have premarital sex aren't held up as the worst sinners there are. In fact, in pretty much every church, there are couples living together outside of marriage and having sex, and in most cases it's pretty much just ignored. Plus, they know that they can just get married and all will be forgiven. I was raised in a Catholic home, and I was fully aware of the teaching on premarital sex. But, I didn't feel like the church would hate me or reject me if I had premarital sex. Because, they wouldn't.

 

But, gay people feel hated by Christians. And, let's face it: they have really, really good reason for feeling that way. This isn't just about Fred Phelps. It's about the many, many churches that hold homosexuality up as somehow worse than any other sin. It's about the Christian public figures who go on and on about how homosexuality is destroying the family and our society, without making a comment about divorce or greed or any of the other issues that are much, much more widespread and so more destructive. It's about the families that kick out their gay children, and the churches that seem willing to welcome all sinners except gay people.

 

People aren't stupid: they know the difference between love and hate. And when gay people are saying, over and over, that they do NOT feel loved by the way Christians treat them, but actually feel hated, I think Christians need to take that very, very seriously. I think we need to not only take it seriously, but shut up and listen to them, rather than immediately trying to justify the position taken by so many Christians. And then we need to repent of how much pain we've caused. Whether or not somebody thinks homosexuality is a sin, the amount of pain that Christians have caused gay people absolutely is a sin. It has torn apart families, broken friendships, and caused many people to turn away from God (either because they've been told that God doesn't want anything to do with them until they change, or because they want nothing to do with a God who would inspire hate and prejudice).

 

If Christians who think homosexuality is a sin really did treat it just like any other sin--if they talked about it no differently and no more than they talked about greed or drunkenness or premarital sex or gossip--then gay people would feel no more hated and no less welcomed by Christians than any other group. The reason they do feel more hated and less welcome is because Christians have, in general, elevated homosexuality to some special status as the worst/most destructive/most disgusting/most unforgivable sin, probably because it's the one sin--assuming it's seen as a sin--that, simply due to demographics (gay people make up a very small percentage of the population), most Christians can be completely sure that they aren't and won't be committing.

 

I have been trying to put my thoughts together concerning this and you just summarized it so well. I don't need to say anything more.

 

Totally agree.

[Julie in Austin]

I just wanted to briefly address this.

 

I think the difference is that, if you ask alcoholics if they feel hated by Christians, they'll say no. In general, their Christian families haven't rejected them; their Christian churches haven't treated them as the worst sinners around and as being responsible for the downfall of civilization; and they don't see Christian public figures going on the news talking about the evils of alcoholics and trying to deny equal rights to people who drink.

 

Same thing with premarital sex. Sure, most people know that premarital sex is considered a sin by Christians. But, I don't know anybody who feels like Christians hate people who have premarital sex. There aren't public campaigns to deny equal rights to people who have premarital sex. People who have premarital sex aren't held up as the worst sinners there are. In fact, in pretty much every church, there are couples living together outside of marriage and having sex, and in most cases it's pretty much just ignored. Plus, they know that they can just get married and all will be forgiven. I was raised in a Catholic home, and I was fully aware of the teaching on premarital sex. But, I didn't feel like the church would hate me or reject me if I had premarital sex. Because, they wouldn't.

 

But, gay people feel hated by Christians. And, let's face it: they have really, really good reason for feeling that way. This isn't just about Fred Phelps. It's about the many, many churches that hold homosexuality up as somehow worse than any other sin. It's about the Christian public figures who go on and on about how homosexuality is destroying the family and our society, without making a comment about divorce or greed or any of the other issues that are much, much more widespread and so more destructive. It's about the families that kick out their gay children, and the churches that seem willing to welcome all sinners except gay people.

 

People aren't stupid: they know the difference between love and hate. And when gay people are saying, over and over, that they do NOT feel loved by the way Christians treat them, but actually feel hated, I think Christians need to take that very, very seriously. I think we need to not only take it seriously, but shut up and listen to them, rather than immediately trying to justify the position taken by so many Christians. And then we need to repent of how much pain we've caused. Whether or not somebody thinks homosexuality is a sin, the amount of pain that Christians have caused gay people absolutely is a sin. It has torn apart families, broken friendships, and caused many people to turn away from God (either because they've been told that God doesn't want anything to do with them until they change, or because they want nothing to do with a God who would inspire hate and prejudice).

 

If Christians who think homosexuality is a sin really did treat it just like any other sin--if they talked about it no differently and no more than they talked about greed or drunkenness or premarital sex or gossip--then gay people would feel no more hated and no less welcomed by Christians than any other group. The reason they do feel more hated and less welcome is because Christians have, in general, elevated homosexuality to some special status as the worst/most destructive/most disgusting/most unforgivable sin, probably because it's the one sin--assuming it's seen as a sin--that, simply due to demographics (gay people make up a very small percentage of the population), most Christians can be completely sure that they aren't and won't be committing.

 

I'd like to applaud this post.

[Joanne]

It's easy enough to look up.

 

This is the No True Scotsman Fallacy taken to extremes! Not only are these people, who spout Bible verses and Jesus and God not Christians, they didn't even come out of Christian homes. Probably never set foot in a Church! Probably didn't even grow up in America, where Christianity is the dominant religion!

 

Where did they come from, I wonder? Hmmmmm.

 

:iagree:

 

I've said it before in similar threads. I see the "homosexuality is a sin" or "acting on homosexual orientation is a sin" as on the same continuum of active, violent hate.

 

It is hate if homosexuals are told (or thought of) as willfully continuing in sin, and therefore are going to hell. It is *hate* to tell anyone they are going to hell. Particularly so when you are condemning them to hell for the way they love.

 

It *is* hate to tell an entire group of people that God considers them an "abomination". It *is* hate to say "Hate the sin, love the sinner" when the "sin" you hate is part of their core, their being, their intimacy, their connection, their love, their affection.

 

It *is* hate to speak of "homosexual lifestyle" as if that communicates anything about their behavior, character, or values. It *is* hate to say "it's between them and God" when homosexuals aren't given the same protection by the laws of the land for property rights, medical access, financial benefits, insurance coverage. It *is* hate when you say "I don't mind homosexuals but I want them to keep their PDA private" and you aren't comfortable with the same level of affection as you would be with a heterosexual couple.

 

It *is* hate when believing homosexuals can't serve in Christian settings as Leaders, Pastors, volunteers. It *is* hate when people don't proclaim loud and clear that homosexual is not synonymous with promiscuity, or perversion of sexuality.

 

It *is* hate when marriage is defined as "man and woman". Or when the Christian Bible has ideas superimposed onto it such as because God's biology creates children out of heterosexual engagement, *homosexual physical engagement* is not God's design (also).

 

It *is* hate when sexual minorites have a higher rate of suicide, addiction, and other mental health issues. Research shows this is not because of their orientation (or gender related issues) but because of the culture's and their family's reaction to it.

[mamato3 all-boy boys]

I believe homosexual behavior is a sin.

 

I do NOT believe it is a "worse" sin than other sins. This often separates me from my fellow believers who seem to think that homosexual behavior is the worst sin there is. I don't get that mindset.

 

Yes I would still be friends with someone who is a homosexual (I am currently and I have family members who are gay).

 

:iagree: All sin in an abomination to the Lord. He doesn't have a hierarchy of "OK sin" and "worst of all sin." A lie, homosexuality, murder -- sin is sin.

 

I won't try to convert anyone or change someone's mind about their behavior, but I will not lie about my beliefs either. I truly believe you can love the person without agreeing with their lifestyle choices. Not that it is easy.

[creativish]

Okay, to a point.

 

As a Christian I am not solely concerned with my responsibility as an individual.

 

Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

 

There's a call to community implicit in Christianity. To me that's a call to be responsible to and responsible for that community. I put that together with the Samaritan story and I think we should not simply be talking about how loving we are as individuals but we should be holding other Christians to account for their hateful actions.

 

I see a LOT of talk about how those Christians aren't true Christians or those are just a few. But then the talk stops. I don't think that's where our obligations end. If Fred Phelps shows up with his "God Hates Fags" signs where are the local churches, conservative and liberal alike with their "God Loves You" signs? Why are we not extending love to the gay people affected (and even Phelps for that matter - THERE'S a challenge!). We can't afford to distance ourselves from people like him. It makes us look petty to those outside and it shirks that communal responsibility that's intrinsic to Christianity.

 

I DO applaud those who despite their view that homosexuality is a sin choose to love their gay friends and family. But as Christians that's the very least of what we're called to do.

 

This reminds me of last year, in my old stomping grounds, "The Laramie Project" was opening and there was word that the Phelps gang would come to protest. My old high school youth pastor and about 75 high schoolers did just what you said and came with signs that read "God is Love." Phelps never showed up but it was still a success (IMO).

Here's his little write up with a few pics.

[dancer67]

Originally Posted by twoforjoy

I just wanted to briefly address this.

 

I think the difference is that, if you ask alcoholics if they feel hated by Christians, they'll say no. In general, their Christian families haven't rejected them; their Christian churches haven't treated them as the worst sinners around and as being responsible for the downfall of civilization; and they don't see Christian public figures going on the news talking about the evils of alcoholics and trying to deny equal rights to people who drink.

 

Same thing with premarital sex. Sure, most people know that premarital sex is considered a sin by Christians. But, I don't know anybody who feels like Christians hate people who have premarital sex. There aren't public campaigns to deny equal rights to people who have premarital sex. People who have premarital sex aren't held up as the worst sinners there are. In fact, in pretty much every church, there are couples living together outside of marriage and having sex, and in most cases it's pretty much just ignored. Plus, they know that they can just get married and all will be forgiven. I was raised in a Catholic home, and I was fully aware of the teaching on premarital sex. But, I didn't feel like the church would hate me or reject me if I had premarital sex. Because, they wouldn't.

 

But, gay people feel hated by Christians. And, let's face it: they have really, really good reason for feeling that way. This isn't just about Fred Phelps. It's about the many, many churches that hold homosexuality up as somehow worse than any other sin. It's about the Christian public figures who go on and on about how homosexuality is destroying the family and our society, without making a comment about divorce or greed or any of the other issues that are much, much more widespread and so more destructive. It's about the families that kick out their gay children, and the churches that seem willing to welcome all sinners except gay people.

 

People aren't stupid: they know the difference between love and hate. And when gay people are saying, over and over, that they do NOT feel loved by the way Christians treat them, but actually feel hated, I think Christians need to take that very, very seriously. I think we need to not only take it seriously, but shut up and listen to them, rather than immediately trying to justify the position taken by so many Christians. And then we need to repent of how much pain we've caused. Whether or not somebody thinks homosexuality is a sin, the amount of pain that Christians have caused gay people absolutely is a sin. It has torn apart families, broken friendships, and caused many people to turn away from God (either because they've been told that God doesn't want anything to do with them until they change, or because they want nothing to do with a God who would inspire hate and prejudice).

 

If Christians who think homosexuality is a sin really did treat it just like any other sin--if they talked about it no differently and no more than they talked about greed or drunkenness or premarital sex or gossip--then gay people would feel no more hated and no less welcomed by Christians than any other group. The reason they do feel more hated and less welcome is because Christians have, in general, elevated homosexuality to some special status as the worst/most destructive/most disgusting/most unforgivable sin, probably because it's the one sin--assuming it's seen as a sin--that, simply due to demographics (gay people make up a very small percentage of the population), most Christians can be completely sure that they aren't and won't be committing.

 

 

WOW!!!:iagree::iagree::iagree::lol:

[Beauty From Ashes]

Just read the OP and my thought is "yes, you can be a Christian and feel homosexuality is OK". Christians are wrong all the time and it doesn't make them non-Christians. It just makes them wrong Christians. We are all wrong at some point. We don't lose our relationship with God over it. In time, if we are growing in Him, we will come to understand that His word is fully true. But we all grow at our own pace.

 

As for homosexual friends. I have none. I have people I know who are homosexual. I have acquaintances who are homosexual. I do not make them my close friends because they don't have the same moral beliefs and faith that I have. And it's not just homosexuals that I do this with, so it's not that. I choose my friends VERY carefully. I want people that I can get wise counsel from, who can support and lift me up during hard times, who can rejoice with me during the good, and understand the spiritual journey I am on. And those whom I can do the same for them.

 

Do I try to convert? Well, yes and no. Those who know me know my beliefs and where my faith lies. I do not mince words. If you ask, I will answer. If you want to know, I will show you. I do witness to others both in word and deed. So yes, in that way I try to convert. I want every human that has ever stepped on tiny toe on this earth to be in Heaven with God one day. I love them too much to let them live in the dark on that topic. So, I witness to them. But I respect their right to say no, I respect their right to live in denial and in sin. I respect them in that way as I hope they respect me as well.

 

**eidted - someone pointed out my mistake in words. Sorry. :)

Edited September 10, 2011 by Beauty From Ashes

[Jenny in Florida]

I'd like to applaud this post.

 

 

Me, too.

 

I am not a Christian, but reading those thoughts makes me feel hopeful about the world.

 

Thank you.

[Joanne]

Just read the OP and my thought is "yes, you can be a Christian and feel homosexuality is wrong".

 

Did you intend to invert/twist the OP? :confused: The question in the OP is:

 

Can you be a Christian and think that homosexuality is ok?

 

 

As for homosexual friends. I have none. I have people I know who are homosexual. I have acquaintances who are homosexual. I do not make them my close friends because they don't have the same moral beliefs and faith that I have.

 

 

Can you please share what "moral beliefs" and "faith" that being homosexual comes with, across the board, that you know you don't agree with?

 

Because, to me, the above quote is *exactly* like saying:

 

No, I don't have heterosexual friends because they do not have the same moral beliefs or faith that I have.

 

Homosexuality does not some with a "faith" or set of moral beliefs.

 

 

 

And it's not just homosexuals that I do this with, so it's not that. I choose my friends VERY carefully. I want people that I can get wise counsel from, who can support and lift me up during hard times, who can rejoice with me during the good, and understand the spiritual journey I am on. And those whom I can do the same for them.

 

Please explain, exactly, how being homosexual prevents persons from full expression of healthy friendship? Or from being on and understanding, and celebrating, a faith journey?

 

Do I try to convert? Well, yes and no. Those who know me know my beliefs and where my faith lies. I do not mince words. If you ask, I will answer. If you want to know, I will show you. I do witness to others both in word and deed. So yes, in that way I try to convert. I want every human that has ever stepped on tiny toe on this earth to be in Heaven with God one day. I love them too much to let them live in the dark on that topic. So, I witness to them. But I respect their right to say no, I respect their right to live in denial and in sin. I respect them in that way as I hope they respect me as well.

 

The bold is not respect. Not by my definition, anyway.

[Beauty From Ashes]

I get that you disagree with me. Your post about what defines hate isn't my definition (well, some is, but much is not). I believe the Bible, fully (and please don't pull Leviticus out because Jesus addressed that :) ). When it says lying is a sin, I believe it. When it says adultery is a sin, I believe it. When it says sex outside of marriage is a sin, I believe it. When it says remarriage after almost every divorce is a sin, I believe it. When it says murder is a sin, I believe it. When it says homosexuality is a sin, I believe it.

 

When it says all men can be saved from their sin, I believe it. I am a sinner. I am no better than any other sinner. But I have turned from my sin and turned to God and His way. I am not perfect at it, but strive daily to do better in Him.

 

I don't choose people who are either living in what they know is a sinful choice or who deny their sin as close friends. I don't. I wouldn't dare closely befriend someone who was a liar and wouldn't stop. I wouldn't closely befriend someone who was an adulterer wand wouldn't stop. Would I love them? Yes. Would I be acquaintances with them? Of course. They wouldn't be in my small circle of close friends. They don't hold the same beliefs that those things are wrong. I need people who, while are sinners, understand and fully believe the Bible as my close circle of friends. That's a personal choice for me. You choose differently, fine and OK. That's how you have chosen to structure your life and it's 100% fine. No biggie.

 

And yes, all of those sins come with a set of moral beliefs. You can't (for the topic of this post) believe homoseuxality is wrong and be living as a homosexual. You just can't. That's like saying "sex outside of marriage is wrong" and then inviting your boyfriend into your bed. Uh, no. All life choices come with a set of moral beliefs.

[beck]

I am gay. Loving my wife fully doesn't make me love God less.

 

Also, Joanne....thank you. :001_smile:

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Welcome to WTM, Beck. Hopefully someday my dd will have a relationship like that! :grouphug: (And maybe by then she can actually marry whomever she wants to marry!) :001_smile:

[Renee in NC]

Just a point about Phelps:

 

He doesn't come from a Christian background, he comes from a greed background. The whole thing is a scam. They apply for permits for protests and sue for a settlement whenever they're denied. It's a business. That's why protest all sorts of random things, whatever is most offensive.

 

:iagree: They have even gone so far as to become lawyers so they don't have to share in the bounty. They *want* to be denied permits. They *want* people to assault them (however minor it is.) Money is money and they have lots of it.:glare:

[Cricket]

Humility is greatly lacking in most of today's Christian churches. As a pp said, I think homosexuality is looked upon as one of the worst sins because many Christians can point and say, "At least I'm not doing that!" It's definitely human nature to compare ourselves with others in order to puff ourselves up with self-righteousness. I think it is a tragedy that homosexual people feel hated by Christians. I attend a very conservative church and in the five years we have been attending I don't think this particular sin has even been mentioned. Our church preaches Sin. Our pastors don't differentiate or pick out special sins to hold up. We are *all* sinners in need of salvation. After salvation we are to grow in godliness and put aside sin. That is a lifelong pursuit and will never be fully realized in this life.

 

I do believe homosexual acts are sin. I find it hard to understand how someone who believes what the Bible says can rationalize away the idea that it is sin. I know there are many Christians who interpret the Bible differently but that is a whole other conversation!

 

I am absolutely offended that anyone would consider belief that homosexual acts are sin are part of a "continuum of active, violent hate." There are many acts that Christians consider sin but somehow when it comes to homosexuality it is hate to say it.

[creativish]

:iagree:

 

I've said it before in similar threads. I see the "homosexuality is a sin" or "acting on homosexual orientation is a sin" as on the same continuum of active, violent hate.

 

I can't agree with you here, and I think you reveal a large reason why many Christians seem to see a big problem with this issue-- by preaching what they interpret their Bible to say about homosexuality they are engaging in hate speech (and could be prosecuted) ?? Even though it has been a commonly held interpretation throughout the span of Christianity. This is a big issue and can effect our society in profound ways.

 

I don't really want to debate, just curious, but in a previous post you said that you didn't believe that homosexuality was why Sodom was destroyed, so what is your interpretation of what the Bible says about homosexuality? It is written in there, listed among other sins in various places, so I guess I'm at a loss as to how to interpret it differently.

[iluvmy4blessings]

Humility is greatly lacking in most of today's Christian churches. As a pp said, I think homosexuality is looked upon as one of the worst sins because many Christians can point and say, "At least I'm not doing that!" It's definitely human nature to compare ourselves with others in order to puff ourselves up with self-righteousness. .

 

I could not have said this better myself. I completely agree with this statement and it is the main issue I have regarding the way the church handles the issue of homosexuality. I am a Christian and I will not state whether I feel homosexuality is right or wrong. To me it's a confusing issue b/c I have researched both sides of the argument. I find it to be like many other issues that the universal church can't totally agree on like baptism by immersion or not; can you lose your salvation or not?; is communion literal or figurative; etc. etc. In all of these debates, Christians use scripture to support their personal beliefs. Even using scripture, we can't agree hence the thousands of denominations out there.

 

I will selfishly admit that I'm glad I don't have to deal with this issue personally as I'm not gay and none of my children are (that I know of!) So I don't have to worry that I might be losing my salvation or my child might. If I did have that issue to deal with personally through a family member, then I think it would be stressful b/c it would worry me until I came to terms with it one way or the other.

 

I have had friends who were gay including my hairdresser. I met someone through my children's PTA who had been with her partner over 10 years. She had a more solid relationship than many married people I know. Things like that make you go hmmmm..:)

 

So for me, I'm on the fence and find it confusing. What I do NOT like is the church harping on this particular "sin" more than others. Trust me when I say they have more to worry about from adultery on any given day than that. They'd do better to preach about that if they want to harp on something. I've seen 5 married couples break up due to adultery in the church I attend in the last 3 years. I used to be the only single mom in my pew. Now I have a club. Unfortunately.

Edited September 10, 2011 by iluvmy4blessings

[Joanne]

I can't agree with you here, and I think you reveal a large reason why many Christians seem to see a big problem with this issue-- by preaching what they interpret their Bible to say about homosexuality they are engaging in hate speech (and could be prosecuted) ?? Even though it has been a commonly held interpretation throughout the span of Christianity. This is a big issue and can effect our society in profound ways.

 

I don't really want to debate, just curious, but in a previous post you said that you didn't believe that homosexuality was why Sodom was destroyed, so what is your interpretation of what the Bible says about homosexuality? It is written in there, listed among other sins in various places, so I guess I'm at a loss as to how to interpret it differently.

 

I have answered this, in this thread and many others. I am competely familiar with the tradtional, Western, conservative interpretation of Christian scriptures on the topic. I have an alternative understanding; and do not wish to have yet another discussion on those scriptures.

 

I have been clear and direct on this topic, even in this thread.

[SeekingHim77]

:iagree:

 

I've said it before in similar threads. I see the "homosexuality is a sin" or "acting on homosexual orientation is a sin" as on the same continuum of active, violent hate.

 

It is hate if homosexuals are told (or thought of) as willfully continuing in sin, and therefore are going to hell. It is *hate* to tell anyone they are going to hell. Particularly so when you are condemning them to hell for the way they love.

 

It *is* hate to tell an entire group of people that God considers them an "abomination". It *is* hate to say "Hate the sin, love the sinner" when the "sin" you hate is part of their core, their being, their intimacy, their connection, their love, their affection.

 

It *is* hate to speak of "homosexual lifestyle" as if that communicates anything about their behavior, character, or values. It *is* hate to say "it's between them and God" when homosexuals aren't given the same protection by the laws of the land for property rights, medical access, financial benefits, insurance coverage. It *is* hate when you say "I don't mind homosexuals but I want them to keep their PDA private" and you aren't comfortable with the same level of affection as you would be with a heterosexual couple.

 

It *is* hate when believing homosexuals can't serve in Christian settings as Leaders, Pastors, volunteers. It *is* hate when people don't proclaim loud and clear that homosexual is not synonymous with promiscuity, or perversion of sexuality.

 

It *is* hate when marriage is defined as "man and woman". Or when the Christian Bible has ideas superimposed onto it such as because God's biology creates children out of heterosexual engagement, *homosexual physical engagement* is not God's design (also).

 

It *is* hate when sexual minorites have a higher rate of suicide, addiction, and other mental health issues. Research shows this is not because of their orientation (or gender related issues) but because of the culture's and their family's reaction to it.

 

Wow! I can't even begin to address this post. Much of it scares me.

 

 

It seems to me that much of this debate centers more around whether or not one takes the Bible at it's word more than than whether or not homosexuality is sin.

 

We are basically being accused of hate for taking God's word as it is because that's all I've seen anyone doing. Not one person on here is saying that homosexuality is sin because they think so, because they don't like it, are uncomfortable with it-whatever. Each Christian who feels that homosexuality is a sin is simply stating that they believe God's word as it is.

 

So, if we turned the tables, one could say that it's hatred towards Bible believing Christians to accuse them of being hate mongers for simply believing God's word.

 

I have never told an entire of group people that they are an abomination. The Bible calls homosexuality an abomination.

 

I can't condemn anyone to hell and would never presume that I could. Only God can determine that.

 

The argument here isn't with people-it's with the Bible.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Melanie32
mistakes

[Beauty From Ashes]

:iagree::iagree:

[Joanne]

The argument here isn't with people-it's with the Bible.

 

Actually, no. I do not believe what PEOPLE say is in the Bible or the way PEOPLE frame the Bible.

 

My arguement is with Christians; not Christ or God.

[SeekingHim77]

Actually, no. I do not believe what PEOPLE say is in the Bible or the way PEOPLE frame the Bible.

 

My arguement is with Christians; not Christ or God.

 

It is in the Bible-therefore you are arguing against the Bible.

 

Maybe you're not arguing against the God you believe in but you are definitely arguing against the God I believe in.

 

I believe homosexuality is a sin because the Bible says it is. I do not pick and choose which scriptures I believe.

 

Besides, much of this misses the point. I believe if someone chooses to accept the finished work of Christ, they become a new creation and God changes them.

 

If a homosexual (or someone who engages in any other form of sin) becomes a Christian, God can and will change their heart and body to reflect His will.

 

God has delivered me of so many sinful desires I used to have. He accepted me the way I was and gave me the power, and the desire, to change.

[Joanne]

It is in the Bible-therefore you are arguing against the Bible.

 

Maybe you're not arguing against the God you believe in but you are definitely arguing against the God I believe in.

 

I believe homosexuality is a sin because the Bible says it is. I do not pick and choose which scriptures I believe.

 

 

It is in YOUR understanding of the Bible. It is in the way you approach the Bible, the way you frame the Bible, the way you interpret the Bible. It is not in mine.

[creativish]

Wow! I can't even begin to address this post. Much of it scares me.

 

 

It seems to me that much of this debate centers more around whether or not one takes the Bible at it's word more than than whether or not homosexuality is sin.

 

We are basically being accused of hate for taking God's word as it is because that's all I've seen anyone doing. Not one person on here is saying that homosexuality is sin because they think so, because they don't like it, are uncomfortable with it-whatever. Each Christian who feels that homosexuality is a sin is simply stating that they believe God's word as it is.

 

So, if we turned the tables, one could say that it's hatred towards Bible believing Christians to accuse them of being hate mongers for simply believing God's word.

 

I have never told an entire group people that they are an abomination. The Bible calls homosexuality an abomination.

 

I can't condemn anyone to hell and would never presume that I could. Only God can determine that.

 

The argument here isn't with people-it's with the Bible.

 

It reminds me of a thread elsewhere that was started by an Orthodox Jew asking Christians why he should believe Jesus is the Messiah (as if he didn't already have his mind made up before posting the question!). The thread got somewhat heated and there were many Christians, Jews and others responding.

But the one thing that I saw was that many of the Jewish members were repeatedly saying that the Christians were being too harsh and mean. But I did not see that-- I saw Christians trying to quote the Bible and use words much like has been the case on this thread-- but people were still offended. :confused: It really took me for a loop that by making plain old statements from the Bible (words that we Christians are used to and have heard for years), would come across as offensive.

I think this issue of homosexuality is another similar situation where that same mis-communication can happen, where as a Christian we are simply trying to defend our beliefs by what the Bible says but it is interpreted harshly. :confused: I don't know.

[SeekingHim77]

It is in YOUR understanding of the Bible. It is in the way you approach the Bible, the way you frame the Bible, the way you interpret the Bible. It is not in mine.

 

Wow! What version are you reading?;)

 

I agree that there are many scriptures that are hard to understand, that can be taken to mean different things by different people but the scriptures that address homosexuality are very, very clear.

[Skyline]

I just wanted to briefly address this.

 

I think the difference is that, if you ask alcoholics if they feel hated by Christians, they'll say no. In general, their Christian families haven't rejected them; their Christian churches haven't treated them as the worst sinners around and as being responsible for the downfall of civilization; and they don't see Christian public figures going on the news talking about the evils of alcoholics and trying to deny equal rights to people who drink.

 

Same thing with premarital sex. Sure, most people know that premarital sex is considered a sin by Christians. But, I don't know anybody who feels like Christians hate people who have premarital sex. There aren't public campaigns to deny equal rights to people who have premarital sex. People who have premarital sex aren't held up as the worst sinners there are. In fact, in pretty much every church, there are couples living together outside of marriage and having sex, and in most cases it's pretty much just ignored. Plus, they know that they can just get married and all will be forgiven. I was raised in a Catholic home, and I was fully aware of the teaching on premarital sex. But, I didn't feel like the church would hate me or reject me if I had premarital sex. Because, they wouldn't.

 

But, gay people feel hated by Christians. And, let's face it: they have really, really good reason for feeling that way. This isn't just about Fred Phelps. It's about the many, many churches that hold homosexuality up as somehow worse than any other sin. It's about the Christian public figures who go on and on about how homosexuality is destroying the family and our society, without making a comment about divorce or greed or any of the other issues that are much, much more widespread and so more destructive. It's about the families that kick out their gay children, and the churches that seem willing to welcome all sinners except gay people.

 

People aren't stupid: they know the difference between love and hate. And when gay people are saying, over and over, that they do NOT feel loved by the way Christians treat them, but actually feel hated, I think Christians need to take that very, very seriously. I think we need to not only take it seriously, but shut up and listen to them, rather than immediately trying to justify the position taken by so many Christians. And then we need to repent of how much pain we've caused. Whether or not somebody thinks homosexuality is a sin, the amount of pain that Christians have caused gay people absolutely is a sin. It has torn apart families, broken friendships, and caused many people to turn away from God (either because they've been told that God doesn't want anything to do with them until they change, or because they want nothing to do with a God who would inspire hate and prejudice).

 

If Christians who think homosexuality is a sin really did treat it just like any other sin--if they talked about it no differently and no more than they talked about greed or drunkenness or premarital sex or gossip--then gay people would feel no more hated and no less welcomed by Christians than any other group. The reason they do feel more hated and less welcome is because Christians have, in general, elevated homosexuality to some special status as the worst/most destructive/most disgusting/most unforgivable sin, probably because it's the one sin--assuming it's seen as a sin--that, simply due to demographics (gay people make up a very small percentage of the population), most Christians can be completely sure that they aren't and won't be committing.

 

:iagree:

 

Thank you for this post. It made me smile when so many comments here had me close to tears. I wish more people believed as you do. The world would be a much better place.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Skyline

[SeekingHim77]

It reminds me of a thread elsewhere that was started by an Orthodox Jew asking Christians why he should believe Jesus is the Messiah (as if he didn't already have his mind made up before posting the question!). The thread got somewhat heated and there were many Christians, Jews and others responding.

But the one thing that I saw was that many of the Jewish members were repeatedly saying that the Christians were being too harsh and mean. But I did not see that-- I saw Christians trying to quote the Bible and use words much like has been the case on this thread-- but people were still offended. :confused: It really took me for a loop that by making plain old statements from the Bible (words that we Christians are used to and have heard for years), would come across as offensive.

I think this issue of homosexuality is another similar situation where that same mis-communication can happen, where as a Christian we are simply trying to defend our beliefs by what the Bible says but it is interpreted harshly. :confused: I don't know.

:iagree:

[WishboneDawn]

I am gay. Loving my wife fully doesn't make me love God less.

 

Also, Joanne....thank you. :001_smile:

 

Thank you for speaking up. Too often these discussions become discussions about people but don't involve those people. :):grouphug:

[WishboneDawn]

Welcome to WTM, Beck. Hopefully someday my dd will have a relationship like that! :grouphug: (And maybe by then she can actually marry whomever she wants to marry!) :001_smile:

 

She can come up here. I'll be attending my cousin's wedding in the New Year. She's marrying her long-time girlfriend and it's perfectly legal here.

 

I got to be part of the proposal and I'm over-the-moon excited about the whole thing.:D

[Joanne]

Wow! What version are you reading?;)

 

I agree that there are many scriptures that are hard to understand, that can be taken to mean different things by different people but the scriptures that address homosexuality are very, very clear.

 

After 2.5 years of graduate school, I have a 3.97 GPA at a Christian*seminary*. I find the "wink" patronizing. I do not have a problem "understanding" many scriptures. To say I have studied this topic would be an understatement.

 

Your understanding, and way of getting there, on the verses you think are about homosexuality apparently seem clear to you. I do not see those verses the same way.

[Ellesmere]

 

The argument here isn't with people-it's with the Bible.

 

I was going to stay out since I haven't contributed much useful to this discussion, but I just can't ignore that comment.

 

I've heard the above so much and it never fails to upset me.

 

No, the argument is not with the Bible. It is with the way ignorant people twist some of the things in the Bible. And I think we can see the destruction and hatred that happens as a result for themselves and those it is directed towards.

[LoveBaby]

I don't think what they do in their bedroom is one iota of my business. Nor do I think what goes in mine is theirs.

 

I don't think God grades sin on a curve and I don't think He needs me to mind other people's personal business. I can barely manage my own.

 

I think it's between the person and God. Just like anything else.

 

Amen! I have enough trouble getting my own stuff together on a daily basis to judge other people!