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dancer67

Can you be a Christian and still

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I think that things like this can give Christians a bad name.

 

 

 

 

It's nominal Christianity that gives Christians a bad name. Always has been.

 

(But it's really not just found in Christianity.)

 

Salt and Light.

 

Some salt has lost it's saltiness and is good for nothing.

 

Some lights are very dim so that people are unable to see.

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Surprisingly, for someone who considers herself a conservative and a christian (but not conservative christian), I don't believe it is my position to judge anyone for their lifestyle choices. Yep, homosexuality is a sin and it says so in the bible. But so is pre-marital s_x.

 

I have committed many sins in my time. I am not their judge. I have grown up being taught that my job in life as a Christian is to answer questions if I am asked, to pray for those who need it, to be the best Christian that I can be and leave the rest to God. Some of my favorite people in this word are homosexual and some of my favorte people in this world are not Christians. I pray for them and hope that they can reconcile with God but I fel that they will have to deal with their sins on judgment day.

 

I guess I am far too selfish to care how someone else is sinning when I, too, am a flawed individual.

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Right.

 

What does it mean to "be OK with homosexuality?" It means that you agree it's an acceptable way to be in a sexual relationship because God says it's OK. Well, he doesn't. If one thinks it's OK to live out those feelings regardless of what God says, then one must think God was wrong on the topic and I can imagine they'd then wonder what else God got wrong.

 

But that doesn't mean that a person needs to become someone they are not, IMO. God does not want a person, either by choice or genetic makeup, to act upon homosexual feelings because it's the behavior he does not allow. He does NOT say that gay people cannot be Christians, he does not tell us to shun gay people, and he does not make any of us UNABLE to do his will. THAT is what is the choice here. The whole genetic thing is moot, really.

 

I think what most people bristle at is that if God made someone that way, then it must be OK. Or that if God made someone gay then how could he ask them to live differently than they *feel* or go against who they are. God looks at the whole person and we are all so much more than our sexual attractions. We're spiritual beings who are able with his power in us to live in a way that pleases him. That's a great thing, a freeing thing! Alcoholics and depressed or bi-polar people or those who suffer with murderous rage or jealousy or selfishness or...ANY thorn in their side, can live a fulfilling life that is still in line with what God wants for them. And that doesn't diminish them as a person in any way, that does not deny them dignity. It means that we can be so much MORE, not less, not pigeonholed into one aspect of our lives and personality.

 

I have to disagree with the bolded section (emphasis mine) of your quote.

 

The thing is, those things you list *can* be overcome, yes. Sometimes with a great deal of counseling, sometimes with medicine, sometimes with utter self control. But, the thing is, all the things you list hurt other people and do not just affect the person who is the alcoholic, has bi-polar, is depressed, etc.

 

A person who is gay and acts on that in a responsible way hurts no one else, and I think comparing homosexuality to alcoholism, bi-polar, rage, etc. is a bit of apples to oranges and an unfair comparison.

 

As for it not diminishing them as a person or denying them dignity I can't quite agree with that, either.

 

Sadly, many gay people do find themselves objectified and ridiculed, in ways that attack their person and their dignity. Just by nature of walking down the street holding hands with their partner, they are scorned. Ridiculed. A good friend has had empty beer bottles thrown at him. Why? Because he dared to give a quick kiss to his husband.

 

The thing is, generally people automatically assume a gay couple is not being celibate, and thus the gay couple is scorned outright. Yet how do we know if they've yet consumated their relationship? Could be a new couple who've not yet gone to bed with one another, in which case, by your standards, they'd not yet be sinning. And yet, most would still scorn them. Turn away in disgust. Throw bottles or ugly glances. Etc.

 

And that's simply not okay. Only God knows their hearts, anyone's heart, and only God can judge if someone is living in sin or not. It's not our job. Our job is to love as God loved. To love God, and to love our neighbor. Period. The End. Even if our neighbor is not like us.

 

The fact that being gay/acting on being gay is still the one sin so publicly, persistently discussed and hated and ridiculed is a travesty. And that reaction to this state of being is exactly what robs a gay person of his or her dignity and personhood, or tries to.

 

The choice isn't for a gay person to choose whether to act on his or her feelings in a romantic, sexual relationship. Even if they wanted to choose, we tend to choose for them in making it something to hide, something to speak of in secret, something to avoid showing off in public. And what kind of choice is that? To have chosen for you if it's safe to hold hands with your spouse in public??

 

No,the choice is whether we as Christians (those who've self-identified as such here) are going to continue to ridicule and judge an entire group of people, people created in the image of God just as we were, or if we are going to start loving them, just as Jesus loved the prostitutes and the pharisees and the tax collectors. Just as he encourages us to do unto the least of these and so do unto Him (see Matthew 25:31 - 46).

 

That is the choice. To love our fellow man, our equal in the eyes of God, or to judge him and deny him the very right to love and live his life as he wishes, in the manner God created him for.

 

I choose to love, and to let love.

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This is the age old...

 

"Did God really say...?"

 

Uh, yeah... He did.

 

So... you disagree / don't believe He said it/ don't believe He exists/ believe He is really a "She"/ believe others got it wrong/ it's not fair...whatever?

 

None of that matters. To Him. What we each say here doesn't even matter. Whether we agree with His Word or not His Word stands.

 

Whatever protests people have or create as being valid in their own minds really is a moot point.

 

We are all given the ability to decide for ourselves what we will or will not base our lives upon.

 

Bingo, Karis.

 

What we choose to believe or not believe has absolutely no bearing on whether or not something is actually True.

 

You've said it very well here.

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Yes. They are not listening to the Holy Spirit speaking to them of their sin, and so yes, they are unrepentant.

 

 

Can't speak for anyone else, but *I* don't believe I have "interpreted" Scripture incorrectly. Homosexuality is not ok.

 

I'm going to respectfully disagree. Only because I've been working my way the heck liberal old self through what the RCC teaches on this subject.

 

The official standing of the RCC is that homosexuals are born that way, and being a homosexual is not a sin but disordered, meaning that they can not naturally procreate. My son was born with a nystagmus, he has a disorder. He has ADHD, another disorder.

 

Now, the part I'm having trouble bending to is that the RCC teaches that *acting* on that nature *is* a sin and that they should live chastely. I can *see* that, and I even agree with the arguments for that stand (that we ALL have *something* in our lives that is a particular sore point for sinning, ie: credit cards, whatever sin, which we are called to abstain from). But I still haven't work myself through the whole thing yet.

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Bingo, Karis.

 

What we choose to believe or not believe has absolutely no bearing on whether or not something is actually True.

 

You've said it very well here.

 

Yes, truth is truth is truth.

 

And maybe there a god who gave us every perfect word of the Bible that says a righteous man is one who would send his daughters out to be gang-raped, but that loving homosexual couples should be executed.

 

Maybe that exists.

 

But if so, let that god do what he wants with the gays and the atheists like me, and you can leave us alone.

 

If it's truth, your god can deal with it. If it's not, you shouldn't prohibit people from having what love and joy they can get from this life with other people.

 

Trust your god to deal out the pain for all of eternity. Let people have what joy and love they can in this life.

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Yes, truth is truth is truth.

 

And maybe there a god who gave us every perfect word of the Bible that says a righteous man is one who would send his daughters out to be gang-raped, but that loving homosexual couples should be executed.

 

Maybe that exists.

 

But if so, let that god do what he wants with the gays and the atheists like me, and you can leave us alone.

 

If it's truth, your god can deal with it. If it's not, you shouldn't prohibit people from having what love and joy they can get from this life with other people.

 

Trust your god to deal out the pain for all of eternity. Let people have what joy and love they can in this life.

 

:crying:

 

It makes me so sad that you see God in this way. I do not have it all figured out- the perfect balance between God's justice vs. His love. I do know that He loves each one of us more than we could possibly comprehend- gay or not gay. To live blatantly against His will is a dangerous thing, but I am not in the position to stand in judgment against anyone. That's God's business. I've certainly done enough in my lifetime to be judged for.

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What I find really sad is that so many think they think like God and have judged what the punishment will be, have led those who may be in what the first considers a sinful path, into believing they will be punished for eternity for this kind of sin.

God loves us all, in spite of our faults. He waits for us. He wants us to help one another. This is only a small part of what I know to be true.

Saying that I love and accept a person but do not accept what his/her behavior or lifestyle is, is not hypocritical. I love my children but do not always put my stamp of approval on everything they say or do.

I am a Christian.

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Alcoholics and depressed or bi-polar people or those who suffer with murderous rage or jealousy or selfishness or...ANY thorn in their side, can live a fulfilling life that is still in line with what God wants for them. And that doesn't diminish them as a person in any way, that does not deny them dignity. It means that we can be so much MORE, not less, not pigeonholed into one aspect of our lives and personality.

 

Dear goodness. Wow. I sincerely hope that this paragraph was written without careful thought, and that illnesses (depression, bi-polar disorder, and other mental health conditions) are NOT being lumped in with sinful behaviour.

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Yes, truth is truth is truth.

 

And maybe there a god who gave us every perfect word of the Bible that says a righteous man is one who would send his daughters out to be gang-raped, but that loving homosexual couples should be executed.

 

Maybe that exists.

 

But if so, let that god do what he wants with the gays and the atheists like me, and you can leave us alone.

 

If it's truth, your god can deal with it. If it's not, you shouldn't prohibit people from having what love and joy they can get from this life with other people.

 

Trust your god to deal out the pain for all of eternity. Let people have what joy and love they can in this life.

 

Ipsey, you may do whatever you wish with your life without fear of being bothered by me. And I have no doubt that my God can "deal with" (as you say) your choices in the way He sees fit. Just as He deals with mine.

 

Peace to you.

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Biology alone should make it clear that God intended there to be male and female.

 

Yes, male and female. No problem. That's the way humans, and animals who reproduce sexually go about it.

 

However, homosexuality is exhibited in nearly every species on the planet. There are some very interesting, scientific articles on this that are easily accessible (intellectually, I mean) to the likes of you and me. Pairs of same-sex animals (female typically, and birds in this case) will mate for life, though one might go and have intercourse with another (even when there are eligible males around!) to produce an egg and raise offspring.

 

None of these species is going extinct because of homosexuality. And neither will humanity.

 

The only way to say "homosexuality is against biology" would be to indicate, somehow, that homosexuality keeps an entire species from reproducing. To its own detriment. It doesn't.

 

Here's a nice Nat. Geographic article.

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

 

This one is the most interesting article I've ever read on homosexuality in animals. Plenty of graphics (not graphic in that way :)) and well done. From the NYTimes.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/04/magazine/04animals-t.html

 

I bet bonobos don't choose to be lesbian, or penguins choose to be gay. Or that they're confused, or traumatized, or demon possessed.

 

I bet it's part of their makeup.

 

Just like for humans.

 

If it's not, there has to be a clear explanation why homosexuality can be natural for some animals, but not "natural" for humans.

 

(Only religion makes homosexuality "unnatural" for humans. Not biology.)

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Ipsey, you may do whatever you wish with your life without fear of being bothered by me. And I have no doubt that my God can "deal with" (as you say) your choices in the way He sees fit. Just as He deals with mine.

 

Peace to you.

 

Does this mean you won't vote against human rights for gay people?

That's what I mean by this.

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accept and believe that homose*uality is ok?

 

IOW, if you have friends that lead this lifestyle do you feel you need to save them from sin? Or can you just be friends with them without any judgement?

I do not believe it is ok according to the Word of God. Neither is over eating, drinking in excess, driving over the speed limit, saying something snitty to someone, etc. Sin is sin and the Word says that we all have fallen short of the Glory of God. I don't put my stamp of approval on Homose. any more than I do any of the other things listed. I also can not say that I have been innocent in all those areas.

 

As far as having the 'need' to 'save' them from their sin? That isn't my job, it is God's. If they ask me I will give them an honest answer to the best of my ability but I WILL..NOT..PREACH..AT..THEM!

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:crying:

 

It makes me so sad that you see God in this way. I do not have it all figured out- the perfect balance between God's justice vs. His love. I do know that He loves each one of us more than we could possibly comprehend- gay or not gay. To live blatantly against His will is a dangerous thing, but I am not in the position to stand in judgment against anyone. That's God's business. I've certainly done enough in my lifetime to be judged for.

 

Ah, you're sweet.

 

I'm not sad at all though. I came from a non-Christian family but was born again at 14, and spent 20 years as an evangelical and a missionary, loving God and Jesus with my whole heart.

 

I also pointed to the Bible, the word of God, as being living and active and perfect.

 

And since I did, I finally couldn't bear it anymore, to see these things in the Bible--the ones I wrote about in the previous post.

 

If I think it would be evil for my neighbor to throw his daughter out to a bunch of men to be gang raped. I think it's evil for a "good" being to call it righteousness.

 

I spent many years wrestling with these things. I don't anymore ;)

 

But, I don't really see the Christian god as being any worse than any other god, in the sense that I don't think it really exists.

 

But I'll take your hug and give you one back! (Ohh, there's no "single hug" smiley. Anyway *hug*) :)

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Yes, male and female. No problem. That's the way humans, and animals who reproduce sexually go about it.

 

However, homosexuality is exhibited in nearly every species on the planet. There are some very interesting, scientific articles on this that are easily accessible (intellectually, I mean) to the likes of you and me. Pairs of same-sex animals (female typically, and birds in this case) will mate for life, though one might go and have intercourse with another (even when there are eligible males around!) to produce an egg and raise offspring.

 

None of these species is going extinct because of homosexuality. And neither will humanity.

 

The only way to say "homosexuality is against biology" would be to indicate, somehow, that homosexuality keeps an entire species from reproducing. To its own detriment. It doesn't.

 

Here's a nice Nat. Geographic article.

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

 

This one is the most interesting article I've ever read on homosexuality in animals. Plenty of graphics (not graphic in that way :)) and well done. From the NYTimes.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/04/magazine/04animals-t.html

 

I bet bonobos don't choose to be lesbian, or penguins choose to be gay. Or that they're confused, or traumatized, or demon possessed.

 

I bet it's part of their makeup.

 

Just like for humans.

 

If it's not, there has to be a clear explanation why homosexuality can be natural for some animals, but not "natural" for humans.

 

(Only religion makes homosexuality "unnatural" for humans. Not biology.)

 

Ipsey I agree with your last few posts but especially this one. As a life long rancher/farmer sort I have seen same-sex behaviors in animals always.

 

I personally sometimes think that if God has any opinion on homosexuality it's to be a test on His followers on how to treat others. And many would fail.

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:iagree:

 

This has been a very interesting thread.

 

I have no intentions of giving up my friends. And I am getting tired of hearing from certain other friends and family that if I am Christian , I can love them, but not accept their lifestyle choice. HUH??!!??? Sounds contradictory to me.

 

And I cannot even imagine breaking out my Bible and start preaching and quoting scripture to them. They would run in the other direction. And I wouldn't blame them, I would as well.

 

I think that things like this can give Christians a bad name.

 

My theory has been, treat others as you would want to be treated yourself.

 

(not that I am perfect, trust me)

 

This sounds like it should have been a JAWM thread. You had your mind made up before you posted the thread.

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Ipsey I agree with your last few posts but especially this one. As a life long rancher/farmer sort I have seen same-sex behaviors in animals always.

 

 

The thing is, I don't think Christians will see homosexuality in animals as a reason why it should be okay in humans - I think the opposite will be true. Humans are expected to rise above those "base" instincts to live in a godly hetero way.

 

As for ipsey's points, I like Betty Bowers's explanation of traditional marriage. This is NOT for the easily offended:

It includes Bible verses for the different types of marriages. Most are from the OT which I know means "they don't count" for some Christians - like the fact that you're supposed to lie with your father's concubines.

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[i'm choosing not to debate the issue of gender being limited to "male" and "female" in your post.]

 

Biology alone should make it clear that God intended there to be male and female.
And... what? What does that mean? Are two gay men not male? Women not female? How do you explain Black Swans within the context of your beliefs?

 

Like other swans, the Black Swan is largely monogamous, pairing for life (about 6% divorce rate). Recent studies have shown that around a third of all broods exhibit extra-pair paternity. An estimated one-quarter of all pairings are homosexual, mostly between males. They steal nests, or form temporary threesomes with females to obtain eggs, driving away the female after she lays the eggs.

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In passing. . . There are Christians who do not lump people in with animals. For them, human beings are special creation, separate from animals. The human soul is eternal; the animal soul is transient, and ceases to exist when the animal dies. With that understanding, it requires caution and care before drawing connections between human and animal behaviours.

 

If one inclines toward combining people and animals into one group, then it is logical to speculate on closer connections.

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Dear goodness. Wow. I sincerely hope that this paragraph was written without careful thought, and that illnesses (depression, bi-polar disorder, and other mental health conditions) are NOT being lumped in with sinful behaviour.

 

We all say things we don't mean, and for my sanity, I'm with you and hoping it was just written without thinking it through. I've posted poorly-thought out stuff and wondered what I was thinking, too.

 

Unfortunately, I know people that feel mental illness is not actually illness. I am not saying that was what the person (who said "alcoholics and depressed or bi-polar people or those who suffer with murderous rage or jealousy or selfishness or...ANY thorn in their side") feels that way, but that belief is out there, just as some people think that being gay is like a mental illness.

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accept and believe that homose*uality is ok?

 

IOW, if you have friends that lead this lifestyle do you feel you need to save them from sin? Or can you just be friends with them without any judgement?

 

I believe it is wrong.

But yes, I've had friends who were gay and I've had friends who were lesbians. They know where I stand, but it doesn't mean I dislike them as a person, and by no means would I sit and lecture them on it.

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Surprisingly, for someone who considers herself a conservative and a christian (but not conservative christian), I don't believe it is my position to judge anyone for their lifestyle choices. Yep, homosexuality is a sin and it says so in the bible. But so is pre-marital s_x.

 

I have committed many sins in my time. I am not their judge. I have grown up being taught that my job in life as a Christian is to answer questions if I am asked, to pray for those who need it, to be the best Christian that I can be and leave the rest to God. Some of my favorite people in this word are homosexual and some of my favorte people in this world are not Christians. I pray for them and hope that they can reconcile with God but I fel that they will have to deal with their sins on judgment day.

 

I guess I am far too selfish to care how someone else is sinning when I, too, am a flawed individual.

 

Great post. I can't say I agree because I don't view homosexuality as a sin but frankly, it's always puzzled me why many Christians use the idea that it's a sin to exclude, condemn, etc. homosexuals.

 

We are all sinners. Every one of us. If sin was a reason for excluding people from our lives or faith we'd all be self-hating hermits.

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accept and believe that homose*uality is ok?

 

IOW, if you have friends that lead this lifestyle do you feel you need to save them from sin? Or can you just be friends with them without any judgement?

 

Celibate, yes. Non-celibate, my faith states that they are in sin. Whether a person is a Christian (I presume you mean "saved") or not is between them and God. Even Christians aren't perfect, nor is anyone's theology perfected. So yes, someone can believe incorrectly about some things and still be a Christian.

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This sounds like it should have been a JAWM thread. You had your mind made up before you posted the thread.

 

Why? (Sincerely, not sarcastically asking.) It didn't sound like she was asking for advice and then refusing to take it although I see she did already have her opinion formed.

 

I took it as a question that she was willing to hear other responses to (even if she doesn't agree) and maybe was wondering if anyone else felt it was important to not be a hypocrite towards gay people. But, I admit I have no idea what the intentions were behind the OP and apologize if I am way off-base!

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I'm a Christian that accepts and believes homosexuality is not only ok, but as much of a gift from God as my own sexuality. I obviously believe that one can still be a Christian and think homosexuality is okay. The only criterion I believe for being Christian is BELIEF (not tithing, not voting a certain way, not wearing only skirts, etc... there's no Christian litmus test).

 

Do I believe that there are morally right expressions of sexuality? Yes. but those have more to do with whether sexuality is used to oppress or degrade as opposed to affirm and accept, whether it is within the context of a loving, mature relationship, etc... and I know many gay and lesbian couples whose love, respect and honor for each other blow heterosexual couples out of the water. I know many a heterosexual couple where there is much dysfunction and dishonor wrapped up in their acting on their sexuality and have much more concern for the state of those relationships than my two 50-something neighbors who are a lesbian couple and been in relationship with each other through child-rearing, cancer, family tragedy, etc for 20+ years... let me model my marriage after that rather than the fifth divorcing/separating heterosexual couple I've heard about in the last year.

 

Some of my deepest growth as a Christian has come from the example of gay and lesbian Christians who bore witness to me and opened up their lives and faith to me. What a gift! Sure glad I was open to it.

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Biology alone should make it clear that God intended there to be male and female.

 

Just a thought, gay people are generally either male or female.:001_smile:

 

And there are hermaphrodites. I sort of wonder what we're supposed to think of those people based on that view.

 

Personally, I believe some people DO choose bi-or homosexual behaviour. I tend to think sexuality is more fluid in some of us then we might like to believe and for some, choices can be made. However I also think a lot of people don't choose it. Regardless, it's neither here nor there for me on the matter. I choose nto to view it as a sin. I maybe wrong on that but even if I did view it as a sin I can't see how it would change how I should view and love those around me who are gay.

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What we choose to believe or not believe has absolutely no bearing on whether or not something is actually True.

 

What is true to YOU may not be what is true to someone else though..

 

You would say that (the Christian) God is true, and that everything written in the bible is true - right?

 

Someone who is [pick another faith] would say that their deity(ies) is/are true and that their scriptures/etc are true.

 

You guys both have something that you believe wholeheartedly in - something that you believe to be the truth - but they're completely different things.

 

*********

 

the original question… well, considering that there are entire Christian denominations that ordain, marry, have as members, etc etc LGBT people, then I'd say it's a "yes" to the "can you be and believe" question.

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The bible tells us it is wrong, but it also delineates all kind of things also wrong, including coveting your neighbor's McMansion or whatever. It doesn't delineate a whole lot on the severity of sins. Would I march up to some friend envying a designer purse and lecture her on how sinful that is? Nope. Same idea in my mind with homosexuality. I have a host of my own sins to worry about before I start worrying about someone else's sin problems.

 

Also, the couple may or may not be Christian. If they are not Christian, they are likely not breaking any rules of their own faith leanings. I'm not Orthodox Jewish or Muslim or any host of other religion. I would be pretty offended if someone who another religion came up to me and lectured me because I was not following the rules and regulations of *their* faith.

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It's nominal Christianity that gives Christians a bad name. Always has been.

 

(But it's really not just found in Christianity.)

 

Salt and Light.

 

Some salt has lost it's saltiness and is good for nothing.

 

Some lights are very dim so that people are unable to see.

 

I disagree. I think fundamentalism has done a lot of harm in the the name of Christ.

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In passing. . . There are Christians who do not lump people in with animals. For them, human beings are special creation, separate from animals. The human soul is eternal; the animal soul is transient, and ceases to exist when the animal dies. With that understanding, it requires caution and care before drawing connections between human and animal behaviours.

 

If one inclines toward combining people and animals into one group, then it is logical to speculate on closer connections.

 

That's a good point.

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Personally, I believe some people DO choose bi-or homosexual behaviour.

 

I agree. I am not sure I'd use the words "bi" or "homosexual" because I think that those are orientations. But I do think there are people who are of homosexual or heterosexual orientation who willingly participate in a wide range of sexual/intimate behavior.

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Boy, I was all ready to jump into this one until truth was mentioned.

 

Then I decided it was time to re-start our Logic lessons, because once people start tossing around different definitions of "true"...

 

Yeeah...

 

 

a

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Bingo, Karis.

 

What we choose to believe or not believe has absolutely no bearing on whether or not something is actually True.

 

You've said it very well here.

 

I don't think it is that simple. As someone who believes that verses of the bible should be taken in context with an understanding of the time and place, I do think some Christians have the unfortunate habit of not remembering that we are reading the Bible through our own modern worldview and the cultural biases that come with us. There are very specific situations in the Bible that concern only the people/groups of the bible time period. After all, most Christians today understand that the Levite sacrificing laws are not relevant to us today.

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I'm a Christian that accepts and believes homosexuality is not only ok' date=' but as much of a gift from God as my own sexuality. I obviously believe that one can still be a Christian and think homosexuality is okay. The only criterion I believe for being Christian is BELIEF (not tithing, not voting a certain way, not wearing only skirts, etc... there's no Christian litmus test).

 

Do I believe that there are morally right expressions of sexuality? Yes. but those have more to do with whether sexuality is used to oppress or degrade as opposed to affirm and accept, whether it is within the context of a loving, mature relationship, etc... and I know many gay and lesbian couples whose love, respect and honor for each other blow heterosexual couples out of the water. I know many a heterosexual couple where there is much dysfunction and dishonor wrapped up in their acting on their sexuality and have much more concern for the state of those relationships than my two 50-something neighbors who are a lesbian couple and been in relationship with each other through child-rearing, cancer, family tragedy, etc for 20+ years... let me model my marriage after that rather than the fifth divorcing/separating heterosexual couple I've heard about in the last year.

 

Some of my deepest growth as a Christian has come from the example of gay and lesbian Christians who bore witness to me and opened up their lives and faith to me. What a gift! Sure glad I was open to it.[/quote']

 

Posts like this give me hope for humanity.

 

Bill

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You're assuming that God made them that way. I don't believe He did.

 

:iagree: I believe that homosexuality is a choice some individuals make, even though some do not make that choice consciously, but as a reaction to some type of emotional trauma. In my almost 51 years of life--during which I have known many homosexuals--all of the homosexuals I have ever known either had a poor relationship with their same-sex parent (or step-parent, significant family member, or authority figure), or were sexually and/or emotionally abused or molested at some point in their past, or suffered some other type of emotional or sexual trauma early in life, even though they may not consciously remember the incident(s).

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Then why would a loving God create anyone with ANY physical, mental or emotional disabilities? Is God "denying" people who end up being single for a lifetime when they never end up in a romantic relationship--and why is that a curse rather than just a different kind of blessing? God does not prevent people from having loving relationships. Love expressed as sex is just one small part of the picture. :)

 

This question is something everyone has to work out in their own hearts and minds, hopefully with God's Word and Spirit helping them in understanding. Either God is truth or He's a liar. Either is is good and just or a sadist. I believe He can be GOOD and loving and still place limits on our lives.

 

:iagree: You said this eloquently.

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Some of my deepest growth as a Christian has come from the example of gay and lesbian Christians who bore witness to me and opened up their lives and faith to me. What a gift! Sure glad I was open to it.

 

Thank you for saying this. I do wonder how many of the people saying that Christians can't be gay have known gay Christians. Several of the most amazing, loving, faithful Christians I've known in my life have been gay. You have REALLY got to love Jesus to stay a Christian when you are gay, given how much crap you are going to get both from Christians who are going to keep telling you what a horrible sinner you are and, unfortunately, also from some gay people who don't understand why you'd stay a part of such a hateful religion.

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The thing is, I don't think Christians will see homosexuality in animals as a reason why it should be okay in humans - I think the opposite will be true. Humans are expected to rise above those "base" instincts to live in a godly hetero way.

 

I don't think the idea is that, because animals do it, it's okay, but that because animals do it, it's not unnatural. Paul describes homosexual feelings as "unnatural passions," and yet we know now that homosexuality is natural for some members of any species.

 

That doesn't necessarily mean it's right (although it obviously doesn't also necessarily mean it's wrong), but it does mean that it would be extremely difficult to describe homosexuality as "unnatural."

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The thing is, I don't think Christians will see homosexuality in animals as a reason why it should be okay in humans - I think the opposite will be true. Humans are expected to rise above those "base" instincts to live in a godly hetero way.

 

As for ipsey's points, I like Betty Bowers's explanation of traditional marriage. This is NOT for the easily offended:

It includes Bible verses for the different types of marriages. Most are from the OT which I know means "they don't count" for some Christians - like the fact that you're supposed to lie with your father's concubines.

 

That's fine. That's a different argument.

What Ellie and I are discussing are whether homosexuality is "natural" or not. She says it's not natural in humans, and I'm showing her that it's natural in non-human animals. . . and we'll see where it goes from there.

 

You and I seem to agree that it occurs naturally in humans and non-human animals. We have no conflict on that point.

 

I haven't addressed your other points. . .but I may not have time today to do so. I'm sure many others here can :)

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Boy, I was all ready to jump into this one until truth was mentioned.

 

Then I decided it was time to re-start our Logic lessons, because once people start tossing around different definitions of "true"...

 

Yeeah...

 

 

a

 

Are you referring to what I said? I'm just saying that different people believe in different things (deities, scriptures, etc)….each see those things as true. "Truth" doesn't seem to be one of those things that you can pin down to only one thing…

 

[in more than just religion… just the other day i was ranting about how hot it was - and a friend chimed in saying that it wasn't hot, it was just right… obviously MY "truth" was that it was hot -- i was sweating! - and HER "truth" was that it was just lovely… ]

 

I don't know.. I've been thinking a LOT about religions/faith/beliefs/etc lately…billions of people…so many different beliefs.. different "truths" or whatever…

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Ipsey I agree with your last few posts but especially this one. As a life long rancher/farmer sort I have seen same-sex behaviors in animals always.

 

I personally sometimes think that if God has any opinion on homosexuality it's to be a test on His followers on how to treat others. And many would fail.

 

Agreeing with the whole of the above, and thus yes, with Ipsey's posts, but especially with the last line of the above. Well stated.

 

.... Also, the couple may or may not be Christian. If they are not Christian, they are likely not breaking any rules of their own faith leanings. I'm not Orthodox Jewish or Muslim or any host of other religion. I would be pretty offended if someone who another religion came up to me and lectured me because I was not following the rules and regulations of *their* faith.

 

Very good point, the bolded there, but I'd extend it to include anyone who IS a part of Christianity as well and just chooses to live out his/her Christianity in a different way than I choose to.

 

As has been pointed out -- my truth and understanding of Truth is not always your truth or your understanding of Truth.

 

Thank you for saying this. I do wonder how many of the people saying that Christians can't be gay have known gay Christians. Several of the most amazing, loving, faithful Christians I've known in my life have been gay. You have REALLY got to love Jesus to stay a Christian when you are gay, given how much crap you are going to get both from Christians who are going to keep telling you what a horrible sinner you are and, unfortunately, also from some gay people who don't understand why you'd stay a part of such a hateful religion.

 

 

Excellent post. Several of the gay people I've known have also been Christian, and very encouraging at that. This is why I speak out, because I have no idea if one of my sons or future grandchildren might be gay and I would really love to help build a world where they aren't catching crap from either direction if that turns out to be the case. How I hope that in their lifetimes things are better!

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I don't think the idea is that, because animals do it, it's okay, but that because animals do it, it's not unnatural. Paul describes homosexual feelings as "unnatural passions," and yet we know now that homosexuality is natural for some members of any species.

 

That's fine. That's a different argument.

What Ellie and I are discussing are whether homosexuality is "natural" or not. She says it's not natural in humans, and I'm showing her that it's natural in non-human animals. . . and we'll see where it goes from there.

 

You and I seem to agree that it occurs naturally in humans and non-human animals. We have no conflict on that point.

 

I haven't addressed your other points. . .but I may not have time today to do so. I'm sure many others here can :)

 

I had missed this fine point (natural versus unnatural). Sometimes it gets hard keeping up wiht all the discussion points :)

 

As for the video, it's a tongue in cheek description of "biblical marriage." Like the Biblical marriage of Lot and his wife = it's okay to marry spices.

 

FWIW, I support marriage equality. I think you can be a non-celibate homosexual and still be Christian (although I really struggle with understanding how someone can be a non-celibate homosexual and identify as being part of certain denominations - like the person i know who is non-celibately partnered and attending Catholic mass). I am a heterosexual agnostic who is non-celibately partnered :)

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Posts like this give me hope for humanity.

 

Bill

 

 

Posts like Slojo's give me hope that maybe my kid won't be stoned to death by someone who thinks she is defective and a "victim of my horrible mothering". :001_huh:

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the original question… well, considering that there are entire Christian denominations that ordain, marry, have as members, etc etc LGBT people, then I'd say it's a "yes" to the "can you be and believe" question.

 

Here's a website that lists all kinda of Christian churches that are accepting of GLBT members…

 

Affirming Christian Church Directory

 

From the site: All churches listed represent themselves in some form or fashion as an affirming Christian church (i.e. gay friendly). "Affirming" means that the church does not view homosexuality in and of itself as a sin and therefore they would welcome and treat a homosexual person no differently than any other person who walked through their church doors seeking Christ.

 

Another website that linked to the above site said that there were "over 6000" churches listed there.

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I am a Christian and a sinner-I dont' feel the need to get after others for their personal issues. That is between them and God. I can have my own opinion, thoughts...but they get to choose how to live their life. Gee if I had to "save" everyone that was sinning-I'd never get anything else done

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