Grade Inflation for Education Majors (I actually gasped)

[cathmom]

 

 

But, that said, I still think it's a significant problem that the system seems set up to discourage the best students and those with more content knowledge from going into education. I was in a doctoral program, and many of my cohort who finished couldn't find jobs. A number toyed with the idea of going into secondary ed, but they couldn't. Even though they had a Ph.D. and had been teaching at the university-level (at a well-respected university) for years, they would have had to pay for a master's program in order to be certified, and in many cases would have had to have taken a semester or more of undergrad courses just to be able to start the ed program. I think it's ridiculous that a person with a doctorate in English who wants to teach high school English classes should be told that first they need to take a biology class and a course on the history of Michigan in order to be accepted into the teacher certification program. Those kinds of requirements just don't make a whole lot of sense, and I think they create an environment where K-12 teaching becomes impractical or unappealing to people who have advanced degrees in their field.

 

They should look for a job at a charter school! I am not certified and don't need to be for my job, although I am looking into getting certified.

 

For those who liked the article and want to read more, I highly recommend Who's Teaching Your Children. It is written by teachers. If you ever get down in the dumps, wondering if you are crazy to be homeschooling, it's a real pick-me-up. I keep it on a big shelf of books I'm prepared to hand to naysayers if necessary. :tongue_smilie:

 

I loved that book and all its recommendations. And the charter school I teach at looks an awful lot like their "millenium school."

[nmoira]

Threads like this just encourage the myth "that anyone can teach."

I just wanted to assure you that I hope this isn't the case, and it's certainly not something I believe.

 

The first thing that crossed my mind upon reading the article is that education majors in schools that fit this profile are being cheated and underserved by their faculties. The second is that this is a model I'm loath to see (continue to) trickle down into our public schools. I'm anti-grade and don't assign them in our homeschool, but if one must have a grading system, assigning everyone excellent scores is a terrible model. How can you convincingly say, "You are capable of more," to someone with straight A's?

Edited August 26, 2011 by nmoira
loath/loathe

[twoforjoy]

They should look for a job at a charter school! I am not certified and don't need to be for my job, although I am looking into getting certified.

 

 

Around here, charter schools require teacher certification. Private schools will take you without one, but the pay is so bad that, if you have a graduate degree, you're better off just adjuncting part-time. And that's saying something!

[LucyStoner]

For two quarters of my undergraduate education as a math and economics major, I lived in a dorm wing that was dominated by Elementary Education majors. Literally, it was me and one girl who was majoring in criminal justice and had plans to go into federal law enforcement who were not EE majors. I tutored nearly all of them in math. Most of them were failing or retaking an elementary level math course. I was really underwhelmed that these were the math skills of the future teachers of America. I personally think that teachers should have to be fluent in more academic areas. Or have a subject BA and an MA in Ed.

Edited August 26, 2011 by kijipt

[kalanamak]

When I was in college (back in the dark ages), it was known that education was an easy major.

 

At the risk of provoking a board member who shall remain nameless, years back I took the GRE and they had average scores by major. All three areas, verbal, mathematical, and analytical reasoning had education majors at the back of the pack. The rest had a jumble: the engineering majors had better math scores, and English majors better verbal. And the education majors were noticeably trailing. It was very sad.

[FairProspects]

At the risk of provoking a board member who shall remain nameless, years back I took the GRE and they had average scores by major. All three areas, verbal, mathematical, and analytical reasoning had education majors at the back of the pack. The rest had a jumble: the engineering majors had better math scores, and English majors better verbal. And the education majors were noticeably trailing. It was very sad.

 

 

Now I'm curious, was it determined by undergraduate major or intended field of graduate study?

 

Just wondering since those of us intending on graduate studies in education would have had subject undergraduate majors and could have counted towards the history stats rather than education for example.

[BamaTanya]

Just to add, one thing I've noticed is that ed students are, in general, good students. I don't mean by that that they are all the brightest students--I've had some really smart ed students, but many have just been average--but that they are usually good at being students. They tend to hand in their work on time, follow directions, participate in class, and just generally be personable, pleasant, nice people. I don't think we can underestimate how far that can go when it comes to doing well academically.

 

And, honestly, that doesn't bother me. The whole idea that students should be graded solely on the quality of their work has always struck me as kind of silly. People say, "But that's how things work in the real world," but in fact it's not. The only place where people really believe that all that should matter is how you perform is schools and sports. In the real world of work, things like the time you put in, how you respond to authority, how well you get along with others, and things like that absolutely determine your success, just as much if not more than your actual performance. I know that a big part of the reason why I always get teaching sections at the school where I work is not that I'm one of the best teachers or that I get some of the best student reviews--I'm pretty average--but that the woman who does the scheduling really likes me because I'm friendly and personable and always stop to ask her how her grandkids are doing (because I like her and her grandkids are cute, not because I want more teaching).

 

Plus, most ed teachers are people who like teaching and like students, unlike professors in other fields, who often don't particularly enjoy teaching or like students, and may see their teaching work as something they just have to tolerate. So, ed professors might be more likely than many other professors to invest in their students, to think favorably of them, to spend time with them making sure they succeed, and to give them the benefit of the doubt when grading.

 

But, that said, I still think it's a significant problem that the system seems set up to discourage the best students and those with more content knowledge from going into education. I was in a doctoral program, and many of my cohort who finished couldn't find jobs. A number toyed with the idea of going into secondary ed, but they couldn't. Even though they had a Ph.D. and had been teaching at the university-level (at a well-respected university) for years, they would have had to pay for a master's program in order to be certified, and in many cases would have had to have taken a semester or more of undergrad courses just to be able to start the ed program. I think it's ridiculous that a person with a doctorate in English who wants to teach high school English classes should be told that first they need to take a biology class and a course on the history of Michigan in order to be accepted into the teacher certification program. Those kinds of requirements just don't make a whole lot of sense, and I think they create an environment where K-12 teaching becomes impractical or unappealing to people who have advanced degrees in their field.

 

I appreciate this. I excelled in high school and college and did not decide to teach until my Master of Arts in Teaching (alternative masters). I was hired to teach in a small private school that did not require certification and decided to head back to school while I was single and living at home.

 

I enjoyed my classes immensely. Some were more rigorous than others. Many required creative problem solving. But really, just how academic does an elementary teacher need to be?

 

I had the privilege of working for 8 years in a school alongside a former second grade teacher of mine. She was FABULOUS. She could motivate, inspire . . . she SPARKLED with her students.

 

And, as an adult, I remember the realization that occurred to me: she wasn't very smart. Not like the pre-med students and pre-law students and math majors I had known in college.

 

But she was an amazing teacher. What she did required creativity and dedication and charm . . . and an incredible tolerance for bureaucracy . . . but she didn't need to be intellectually gifted to do what she did WELL. She could teach circles around me. :D

 

It doesn't bother me in the least that she wouldn't win academic scholarships or do well on a GRE. She could TEACH.

 

As an aside, the first principal who hired me to teach first grade chuckled when looking over my college transcript. "I'm really glad you took 2 semesters of calculus." Guess he wasn't used to seeing that from education majors. :lol:

[kalanamak]

Now I'm curious, was it determined by undergraduate major or intended field of graduate study?

 

 

 

Undergrad major. It is self-reported (or was, at least. I can't believe I took the GRE about 30 years ago!)

[Frontier Mom]

Yes, I experienced this when I was in college. I was in the Business Department but my good friend was in the Education Department. She had the easiest assignments while I was up all night. She was a very smart girl though so it wasn't her fault. Sad to have low standards in this area in regards to the grades.

[angela in ohio]

I think our schools have declined considerably since the 70s when women no longer had the three options of teacher, nurse or secretary. A lot of really bright women decided to do something else with their lives instead of teaching children. Of course there are still some really great teachers who are hard working and intelligent but I think they are far more rare.

 

I grew up in a college town and the running joke was always that kids would drop from engineering to business and finally to education as they sought an easier course load.

 

That was a chapter in Superfreakonomics or Outliers (or something similar I read lately.) It was all about the dramatic changes in the qualifications of teachers (average IQ, etc.) during the time period that more job markets opened up for women.

 

And we always joked when I was in school that it was:

Engineering = Pre-Business

Business = Pre-Education

:D

[Meriwether]

I took my state's teaching exam before I took my education classes. I scored in the top 25%. Granted, I usually test better than that, but I can only assume the classes were worthless if I did better than 75% of the other students taking the test. I had one teacher in my ed. department who taught me a lot of practical skills.

[cathmom]

Around here, charter schools require teacher certification. Private schools will take you without one, but the pay is so bad that, if you have a graduate degree, you're better off just adjuncting part-time. And that's saying something!

 

Then they should move LOL. Here only 50% of the teachers at a charter school must be certified.

[EKS]

Undergrad major. It is self-reported (or was, at least. I can't believe I took the GRE about 30 years ago!)

 

Here's one for intended graduate major. Note that the ones intending to go into secondary education (and therefore more likely to have majored in a subject other than education) are well above the others--which are clustered at the bottom.

 

GRE scores by intended graduate major

[mommymilkies]

Here's one for intended graduate major. Note that the ones intending to go into secondary education (and therefore more likely to have majored in a subject other than education) are well above the others--which are clustered at the bottom.

 

GRE scores by intended graduate major

 

That makes me feel better as a former Philosophy & Physics major. :lol:

[FairProspects]

Here's one for intended graduate major. Note that the ones intending to go into secondary education (and therefore more likely to have majored in a subject other than education) are well above the others--which are clustered at the bottom.

 

GRE scores by intended graduate major

 

Interesting! Especially since my scores would actually have been included in that data as I took the GRE during that timeframe.

[smillard00]

I have a BS in Curriculum and Instruction. That was the elementary ed degree at our school. I was required to take a general core of subjects that most of the majors in the university had to take. I tested out of algebra and trig, so my math credits were in calculus. I had to take chemistry and physics and biology. I had social sciences and foreign language and arts. I had two semesters of freshman comp and then another semester of comp specifically designed for the needs to educators. We covered letters and memos, but we also covered grant writing and professional papers. Then we had education core which was all of the educational theory, child development, how the brain works and learning occurs, how to plan (which included development of curriculum, goals, objectives, choosing the right strategies to teach that content, and on and on), how to manage the classroom (a lot of behavioral theory here), and how to evaluate learning with a lot of statistics. Then we had classes in teaching methods for each content area we would be expected to teach. Yes, in our children's lit class, we had to do book reports on children's books--hundreds of them! That isn't all we were taught in that class. Our time was spent learning literary analysis and how to teach that to children and many other things. But outside of class we were tasked with reading hundreds of children's books across a wide span of time, genre, age range, etc. We built a card file that was categorized. They wanted us to be able to have our students read more than whatever was hot on the Scholastic book list that week. In our early childhood class, we spent time making cute posters, but they were posters showing our unique design of an early childhood learning space and we had a 10 page paper to go along with it to justify the placement of every chair and crayon in the space. It was evaluated according to the structures that were taught over the course. In many of our classes, we were required to observe in local schools and to teach actual classes while being observed and graded according to a rubric that was pretty tough. After taking two semesters of classes on teaching reading and remediating reading problems, we had to work in a reading lab with students where we diagnosed their problems, came up with a remediation plan, and implemented the plan, tutoring them twice a week for the semester. We had to student teach at the end of all of this and then there was a big portfolio project that brought everything together into a huge package that we had to submit to the state for certification. If we wanted endorsements in specific content areas in middle school, we had to take higher level courses in those areas (such as my extra chemistry and physics hours for a science endorsement). Was it as hard as an engineering degree? No. But it was a lot more rigorous than people thought. And, while I got good grades in all of my classes, I worked harder for my grades in many of my education classes than I did in some of the other classes I took while there.

 

Of course, then I went back to my home state and tried to get a certificate there. They sent me back to school for a semester because of some catalog discrepancies with my school vs. their state requirements. I was APPALLED at how "Mickey Mouse" the classes were there. I had to take this stupid math course that they required of all of their teachers that was basically on a 6th grade level. That is when I realized why elementary ed majors got a bad rap. It was such a waste of time!

[kalanamak]

That makes me feel better as a former Philosophy & Physics major. :lol:

 

I had to laugh because I had two philosophy majors in my family!

 

I took the test in '84. I'm sure the scores aren't comparable. I just remember my %ile ranking, but I'm fairly sure they didn't ask what you intended to go into. I wasn't taking it to go to grad school (I wanted a standardized test under my belt because I went to an "evaluations" rather than grades undergrad, and I had no clue where I stood), and I recall writing in "General Liberal Arts" as my major. I don't have a major, just a BA.

 

I'll have to raz the completely math-phobic social worker at work. She can't find an address to save her life, and is even afraid of phone numbers, but WOW, what an amazing social worker, and no dummy, as she got her BSW when she was barely 20.

[TechWife]

Of course, then I went back to my home state and tried to get a certificate there. They sent me back to school for a semester because of some catalog discrepancies with my school vs. their state requirements. I was APPALLED at how "Mickey Mouse" the classes were there. I had to take this stupid math course that they required of all of their teachers that was basically on a 6th grade level. That is when I realized why elementary ed majors got a bad rap. It was such a waste of time!

 

The math class you describe above was they same type of class that I am familiar with. The comment you made about the ed. majors getting a bad rap extends into the view many people have about the career itself, I think. It's hard to respect a teacher if the education that they received isn't respected.

 

The education courses you mentioned were some of the courses I had thought I'd like to see an elementary education major take - brain development, child development, behavioral mgmt. They sound really good.

[nmoira]

 

The education courses you mentioned were some of the courses I had thought I'd like to see an elementary education major take - brain development, child development, behavioral mgmt. They sound really good.

:iagree: As well as the extensive reading of children's books.

[sewingmama]

Things are the same here in Aus. I started out doing an Education degree at a University that specialised almost solely in "training teachers". The standards were terribly low. There were a few Aboriginal students there who hadn't even passed Year 12 but were admitted through "special entry" because the school had to take a certain amount af them each year to fill a quota.:glare: There was one girl who failed every single assignment she was given and yet still managed to pass every subject. When I asked her about it she said the Uni had told her that even if she failed everything she would be given an Education degree if she allowed them to send her to a remote Aboriginal community to teach where they couldn't get qualified teachers :001_huh: So much for closong the education gap in Aboriginal communities.

 

Most of our clases were about discipline techniques, dealing with difficult parents, learning to write special plans for kids with disabilities, assessment techniques and lots and lots of making resources for the classrooms. For English we had to make a "big book" - write a story and draw all the pictures. For maths we spent a lot of time making math games :glare: When I asked when we would be learning the curriculum I was told that we were expected to "buy the books and learn it ourselves" Nevermind that it was difficult to understand and know how to implement it. The same for grammer "buy this grammer textbook, read it because you will be tested on it". In-class time was for making resources.

 

Within 2 months of starting the degree I had already determined I was going to homeschool my kids. There was no way I was putting them in a classroom of teachers who had such low scores and were barely passing. To me teaching is like being a doctor -would you want to be operated on by a person who just barely passed his exams or a a person who came top of their class ;)

 

 

Don't use the word "challenge" even when interviewing at a private school, because "the parents won't like that."

 

Isn't that the truth. My DH is in all sorts of trouble at the moment at the private school he teaches at. He has many parents complaining that the work he is giving the kids in his class (Year 11 and 12) is too hard and thus "de-motivating" them and causing them to "not like school". DH noticed that over half the class couldn't write a proper paragraph and their grammer was worst then a Prep student so he decided to spend 10 minutes of each class going over the basics. The kids flipped out about it being "too hard" and the parents were up in arms. So now my DH has to go back to the usual methods of giving A's and B's to papers that are barely C's and D's and ignoring the fact that their writing skills are so bad you can barely make sense of the paper. He no longer marks grammer on papers or every student would fail. He is beyond frustrated with it but he is not allowed to "upset the parents".

Edited August 28, 2011 by sewingmama

[Rosie_0801]

The education courses you mentioned were some of the courses I had thought I'd like to see an elementary education major take - brain development, child development, behavioral mgmt. They sound really good.

 

Not just elementary! Dh was wishing those courses had been available when he was teaching year sevens, with half the class having started puberty when the other half hadn't.

 

Rosie

[nmoira]

 

Isn't that the truth. My DH is in all sorts of trouble at the moment at the private school he teaches at. He has many parents complaining that the work he is giving the kids in his class (Year 11 and 12) is too hard and thus "de-motivating" them and causing them to "not like school". DH noticed that over half the class couldn't write a proper paragraph and their grammer was worst then a Prep student so he decided to spend 10 minutes of each class going over the basics. The kids flipped out about it being "too hard" and the parents were up in arms. So now my DH has to go back to the usual methods of giving A's and B's to papers that are barely C's and D's and ignoring the fact that their writing skills are so bad you can barely make sense of the paper. He no longer marks grammer on papers or every student would fail. He is beyond frustrated with it but he is not allowed to "upset the parents".

Nobody benefits from rarely or never hearing, "You can do better work than this." Those poor children are being done a tremendous disservice by their parents and the school administration. :glare: I hope things work out for your husband.