Need a paradigm shift in how we homeschool, or will send ds to ps.

[LauraQ]

I work full time in 3 12-hour shifts a week (2 week days and then every other weekend). My 15 yo dd works well independently but my 13 yo ds can't be trusted to do even simple assignments on his own. If I leave for 4 hours, he does nothing but play for 4 hours no matter how challenging or easy his assignments are. If you walk out of the room for 15 minutes, he stops working for 15 minutes. There's a 4 hour overlap when he's alone with his sister twice a week, and during that time he does nothing. Then there's the time I spend cooking, cleaning, running errands, helping his sister, etc. on regular days I'm home, and during those times he does nothing. If the phone rings and I step out for 3 minutes, when I return I have to get him started all over again. Get the picture?

 

We've tried everything we can think of to help him mature and improve but NOTHING has helped even a little bit. He's as bad this way now as he was years ago with no improvement at all. We've tried timers, challenges, rewards, punishments, alarms, lists, charts, and even attaching a clipboard to him physically with his "things to do" pasted to it. You can't ignore a clipboard strapped to you, can you? Yes, apparently you can if you are my son. For hours.

 

Me quitting my job isn't an option. Private school also isn't an option (the closest ones are two cities away and we can't afford them). Public school is our plan for him next year simply because then he will be in a room 6-7 hours a day where there's a teacher and he simply can't wander into his room to play lego, he can't wander in the back yard with the dogs for hours, and he can't just wander into the bathroom whenever he wants and then get distracted by every speck of lint on the way back and not reappear for 3 more hours.

 

It breaks my heart. I'm literally sick to my stomach about it. I'm ashamed beyond belief to admit this to anyone, so just posting here is a big deal. But, at the same time, I'm also feeling a sense of relief over the decision to send him to school. Even if we bring him back home after a semester or a year, I'm hoping SOME good will come of sending him.

 

Not sure what I'm looking for. Perhaps a radically different idea about how to do this homeschool thing? I'm beginning to think that NOTHING will work with this child. I don't even believe in lost causes, but I'm beginning to wonder if this boy isn't a lost cause. Oh yeah, on opposite day I'd be mother of the year right now!!

[Geo]

Is he ADD?

[wapiti]

Do you think it's a distraction problem (e.g., add/adhd), or a self-discipline/work ethic problem? Or both?

[justamouse]

can you give him projects?

 

make a catapult and show me how they used it

 

draw me a comic strip of a tournament (we're in medievals sorry)

 

build me a lego castle and make sure there's a portcullis, a keep, arrow slits and an inner curtain wall. Moat optional.

 

make me a paper doll of a knight in armor with correct armor parts

 

make me a skit of a knight teaching a squire about chivalry

 

write me an article for a newspaper article on William the Conquerer from the POV of a Saxon. (then you can edit and correct adding in a grammar lesson)

 

make a full body outline and create out of household stuff the major organs.

 

Make lego knights and give them period weaponry, show me how they used it.

 

I would get him evaluated for ADD, but know that a school isn't going to miraculously solve this.

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

My boys did the same thing some last year. I only work part time, but it still was frustrating for me to leave an assignment and come home to find it not completed... many times not even started.

 

I bought some Switched on Schoolhouse for this coming year. Two subjects for each boy. On the days I work they will do each subject for an hour, read an hour, and watch a documentary for an hour. They'll both be doing some American History this year so the documentaries will be history. On the days I do not work, they will do subjects with me.

 

Is there a way you could let him watch documentaries and read on the days that you work? Then you could work with him more on the days you do not work?

 

((( hugs ))) I know you are frustrated with this.I understand.

[Faithr]

Can you enroll him in a couple of on line classes on those days? That way he'd have to 'show up' for class. Maybe that would give him incentive to finish work before the online classes.

[Hunter]

When you say he does nothing but play, is he getting up from his chair, or just sitting quietly and doing nothing?

[Mom22ns]

Can you do three long days on the days you are home and leave him with nothing but reading or whatever it is he can do on his own? If there is nothing he can do on his own, how about 3 long days and Saturday where you and your dh alternate overseeing Saturday?

[Trish]

Does finishing his work earn him anything, or does he not care if he has anything in the way of privileges as long as he does not have to work? When my middle schoolers start to slack, my DH laid down the law: No lunch until four subjects are COMPLETE, one of those subjects being math.

 

That cut down on the procrastination rather quickly.

[Greta]

Laura, I do not believe that sending a child to public school equals admitting defeat or that you've failed at homeschooling or anything of the sort. Every family situation is different, every child is different, and even the same child is different in high school than in elementary school, etc. We all want to do what is best for our kids, and for some kids at some times, that may be a brick-and-mortar school, and that's okay. When I started homeschooling my daughter, I knew in my heart of hearts that it was the best choice available for her. We are now facing circumstances where that appears to be changing, and this will likely be my last year homeschooling her. I'm very emotional about it because it means a chapter of our lives is coming to an end. But I don't think that means I'm a 'homeschool dropout' or something. It means I'm evaluating her circumstances year by year, and changing plan according to what she needs. I certainly don't claim to know what your son needs, but if you and your husband, who know him best, think that this is what he needs right now, then please don't beat yourself up for doing the best you can for your child! :grouphug: You clearly have his long-term well being in mind. It sounds like you have tried many, many things. Since they haven't worked, you are now trying one more. Isn't that what a good, loving parent does? Just keeps on trying, and keeps on and keeps on, until she finds something that works? Sometimes the solution may not always be what we pictured or hoped for, but what matters is that we find what works for the child. Please don't be so hard on yourself. You'll make me cry, and I'm already a mess! :grouphug:

[cathmom]

:grouphug:

[missmoe]

Laura, I do not believe that sending a child to public school equals admitting defeat or that you've failed at homeschooling or anything of the sort. Every family situation is different, every child is different, and even the same child is different in high school than in elementary school, etc. We all want to do what is best for our kids, and for some kids at some times, that may be a brick-and-mortar school, and that's okay. When I started homeschooling my daughter, I knew in my heart of hearts that it was the best choice available for her. We are now facing circumstances where that appears to be changing, and this will likely be my last year homeschooling her. I'm very emotional about it because it means a chapter of our lives is coming to an end. But I don't think that means I'm a 'homeschool dropout' or something. It means I'm evaluating her circumstances year by year, and changing plan according to what she needs. I certainly don't claim to know what your son needs, but if you and your husband, who know him best, think that this is what he needs right now, then please don't beat yourself up for doing the best you can for your child! :grouphug: You clearly have his long-term well being in mind. It sounds like you have tried many, many things. Since they haven't worked, you are now trying one more. Isn't that what a good, loving parent does? Just keeps on trying, and keeps on and keeps on, until she finds something that works? Sometimes the solution may not always be what we pictured or hoped for, but what matters is that we find what works for the child. Please don't be so hard on yourself. You'll make me cry, and I'm already a mess! :grouphug:

 

:iagree: I could have been writing this same post four years ago. My ds did end up going to school simply because I felt there was no other option! He graduated this past year with a 3.6 GPA and 21 college credits under his belt. This is the same super smart kid who had all D's and F's at home with me. I felt sick and that I had failed this kid. We still had problems that first year or so he was in school, but things ended up working out. I was able to focus on being his mom without adding to the mix being his teacher.

 

Homeschooling is a great option, but isn't the only viable option for every kid every year.

[LauraQ]

Is he ADD?

 

Yes. Very. So am I, except he doesn't yet have the benefits I do of maturity and meds. He is on a wait list for a child psych but the wait lists here run 4-6 months for initial appt. We have waited this long because we see meds as a last resort, not a first option. Also, dd is also extremely ADD and yet she has imroved, matured and managed to excel academically and otherwise without meds, so we were hopeful that we could have similar results with ds, but this has not nearly been the case.

[LauraQ]

Do you think it's a distraction problem (e.g., add/adhd), or a self-discipline/work ethic problem? Or both?

 

both. He has definitely inherited a very poor work ethic and dishonesty problems from his bio-dad that I can see, and this worries me.

[LauraQ]

 

Is there a way you could let him watch documentaries and read on the days that you work? Then you could work with him more on the days you do not work?

 

((( hugs ))) I know you are frustrated with this.I understand.

 

This is very much like what we tried all of last year: he had only a few simple assignments for things he needed NO help with on days I worked, lots of reading (which he loves to do) and he only had to do things he needed help on when I was home. When I say he'll stall out and not work if I step out of the room for 15 minutes I'm not exaggerating. He would not even read, but then lie and say he had, and then when quizzed on the reading couldn't answer questions, even for books he LIKED to read. He wouldn't even do Copy Book--too boring? Not even Science--his absolute Favorite subject ever, so not a problem with lack of interest or boring or too challenging or not challenging enough. I ran out of subjects he would do on his own. There is NOTHING you can count on him to do even 30% of the time on his own.

[LauraQ]

Can you enroll him in a couple of on line classes on those days? That way he'd have to 'show up' for class. Maybe that would give him incentive to finish work before the online classes.

 

That would be a LOT of money, and honestly, I'm almost positive he simply wouldn't sign in, and I'd be out a lot of money for yet another failed experiment. Noone would be here to make sure he logged in, and therefore he wouldn't. If it were a less expensive option I might consider it anyway.

[LauraQ]

When you say he does nothing but play, is he getting up from his chair, or just sitting quietly and doing nothing?

 

Both, it varies. Sometimes he gets up and wanders around. Even with me sitting next to him his mind will wander and he's doing nothing but daydreaming. I honestly don't think he realizes what he's doing when he gets up and wanders and then gets sucked into something else half the time!

[LauraQ]

Can you do three long days on the days you are home and leave him with nothing but reading or whatever it is he can do on his own? If there is nothing he can do on his own, how about 3 long days and Saturday where you and your dh alternate overseeing Saturday?

That is essentially what we've been forced to do, but it is extremely unfair to dd as these are very intense days with ds since he needs literally constant oversight and it means dd doesn't get the help and interaction she both needs and deserves because ALL my time home is taken up with her brother. She is starting to resent it quite a bit, and I can't say I blame her.

[LauraQ]

Does finishing his work earn him anything, or does he not care if he has anything in the way of privileges as long as he does not have to work? When my middle schoolers start to slack, my DH laid down the law: No lunch until four subjects are COMPLETE, one of those subjects being math.

 

That cut down on the procrastination rather quickly.

 

This would only work on days I'm home. Noone can stop him from just going and eating when he's alone 4 hours twice a week with his older sister. She is focused on her own school work and can't be expected to also police his eating habits.

 

We have tried various rewards and punishments. Even if he has NOTHING at all to play with, he can entertain himself with a stick and a dog for hours. Hand him a pencil and a rubber band and he'll build you a miniature weapon of mass destruction. He's an origami expert so even school paper is a potential distraction. It's literally impossible to take everything away that might be a distraction. We have offered lots of rewards as well from provileges, toys, freedom, books, computer/tv time, even cash money, and nothing has inspired him. He could have earned $$ for just doing all of his assignments even ONE DAY last year, but the cash is still tacked to the bulletin board in the school room, untouched. He never once had a day where he got all his work done on the day it was assigned.

[LauraQ]

can you give him projects?

 

make a catapult and show me how they used it

 

draw me a comic strip of a tournament (we're in medievals sorry)

 

build me a lego castle and make sure there's a portcullis, a keep, arrow slits and an inner curtain wall. Moat optional.

 

make me a paper doll of a knight in armor with correct armor parts

 

make me a skit of a knight teaching a squire about chivalry

 

write me an article for a newspaper article on William the Conquerer from the POV of a Saxon. (then you can edit and correct adding in a grammar lesson)

 

make a full body outline and create out of household stuff the major organs.

 

Make lego knights and give them period weaponry, show me how they used it.

 

I would get him evaluated for ADD, but know that a school isn't going to miraculously solve this.

 

We've done many projects like those you've listed above. He loves that sort of thing and really gets into it. Not to the point that he actually *finishes* the projects LOL but yes, we've done this. But NONE of these gets us THROUGH a history book or helps him learn grammar or pre-algebra. He LOVES Science experiments, but even those he won't do without oversight.

 

I know the schools won't magically solve this, but they can do ONE thing that I can't: Have him within eyesight of an adult for 6 hours 5 days a week.

[Love_to_Read]

Have you broken it down into smaller tasks? Like read p1-2 and answer question. Read p3-4 and answer question. $.25 for each instead of money for a whole day.

 

Honestly, I'd probably send him this year. We deal with ADHD/ADD here, too, and your reasoning sounds perfectly reasonable. For several years, my dd flourished in school because she was brought back on task both by the teachers and by watching other students or interacting with them. Lots of context clues for...hmm, what should I be doing right now? She still got in some trouble with a couple teachers, but had several who were wonderful for her. I eventually pulled her out b/c they didn't do much of anything kinesthetic for her worst subjects, and nothing was sticking otherwise, but at his age, there will be good science experiments done with partners, and you can see how the rest goes. You can always come back if you have to, but I think it's well worth a try to go.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Based on everything you've shared about him and the fact that you are extremely frustrated, as others in the house probably are too, I think I would go ahead and put him into ps at least as a trial. If I were in your shoes I would probably be feeling a lot of animosity because of the constant frustration of battling with him. Maybe a period of time where you can just be his mom instead of his teacher would be good for both of you.

 

You shouldn't feel like a failure at all. You are trying to make a decision based on what is best for him...and for the rest of your family. What you've been trying isn't working so you have to try something else. There is no shame in that at all. The opinion that homeschooling is best for every child is just not true. :grouphug:

[sassenach]

Enrolling my dd in 8th grade was the best decision for our family. She was ready, I was ready, we were all ready. It was what she needed academically, and what we needed for our relationship. No regrets.

[mom32boys]

:grouphug:

You have to do what you think is best for your family. If you think it's best to send him to public school, it's ok. Don't feel like a failure.

Our kids were in public school for many years; they had a good experience but we thought homeschooling would work better with dh's wacky schedule.

My youngest has ADD and I've struggled with keeping him focused. We're trying something different next year; we enrolled them in a 1 day/ week classical school. We try to take things year by year, and may end up doing something totally different next year.

 

Julie

[Hunter]

I tried to put my youngest back in school when he was 15 (I think). They wouldn't take him back without a legal battle. They didn't want a highly/profoundly gifted aspie who had school records showing that as a 4th grader he had amused himself by pitting staff members against each other, and boycotting the brand new high stakes testing. And the unfinished testing done so far, showed him to be off the charts in both directions, for different IQ subtests. They said they would pay to send him to a private school in the city 45 minutes away, but would not take him back. My son refused to get on the little white van and travel so far away.

 

I wish I had pulled back on worrying about academics and made character development more of a priority. I was always afraid to push when I wasn't sure what was an LD and what was a character defect. The more I tried to "help" the more passive resistent and lazy he became.

 

Just before he turned 17 I made him take the GED–while I sat outside the classroom and guarded the door–and he started his freshman year at the local junior college a few weeks later. I was DONE!

 

Kids with LDs can also be in SERIOUS need of discipline and character training, but it's SO hard to know WHEN and HOW. And passive resistant behavior is the hardest to fight against.

 

Looking back I do not think PS would have helped. Not in the LONG run, and it is the long run that counts. Time is SHORT for the envelope of time we have to teach character, and I missed some oppurtunities to teach the most important things.

 

Yeh, in the 6th grade he had the highest test scores in the town and was the ONLY 6th grader in our very large town that qualified to take the SATS as part of the John Hopkins Talent Search and everyone told me what a GREAT job I was doing. I mucked up though, and my priorities were out of whack. I was more worried about whether his Saxon lessons were being completed on schedule to take AP calculus, than about his ATTITUDE toward me and work.

 

My vote is to keep him home and deal with his attitude before it is too late. If you can get more information about his LDs that would be helpful in giving you confidence on where and when to crack down. I'd pursue as much testing as possible for INFORMATION, not treatment.

 

Children with LDs need more direction with character, not less. They have a rockier road to travel and need all the tools in their toolbelt that they can accumulate. Strong character and a good work ethic are the best tools anyone can aquire.

[Crimson Wife]

Personally, I would do a trial of medication before a trial of PS. If there's a long wait for a child psych eval, I'd ask the pediatrician to write the prescription.

[Capt_Uhura]

My friend waited years before putting her DD on medication. My friend is ADHD and hated taking meds when she was a kid and felt that w/ HSing she could compensate for the ADHD. But finally her DD kept expressing frustration at not being able to get things done and not being able to focus on one thing long enough that my friend decided to do meds. She now wishes she had done it earlier. The difference is simply amazing. Her DD is 11yrs old.

[PeterPan]

Like the others, I'm wondering why another doc can't get him on the meds. We haven't done the meds (yet), but we deal with the same thing. I'm getting tight in the chest just thinking about it. Dd is gone at camp this week, and oh what bliss! I'm getting WAY more done than normal, and it's because I don't spend the whole day supervising her. Everyone thinks the toddler is the hard thing, and it's not. It's the large-bodied 12 yo that's the problem.

 

A couple practical ideas. Someone here (Janice?) has said they have their dc EMAIL assignments in. I think you could have him email you with each task he completes and you email him to keep him on track. Mercy, that might not even work depending on your job. And of course the computer is its own distraction. I'm tossing it out anyway, that you might be able to use technology to keep him on-track. Some kind of alarm system built into an iphone so that it rings every so often and reminds him of the next task?

 

Next idea. Does your state have cyber-schools or online charter schools? Ours does, and they're free.

 

Motivation? Well none of that stuff motivates my dd either. The only thing that motivates my dd is when she has something she REALLY WANTS TO DO. And I don't mean an ethereal goal. I mean really practical like: I want to go shopping with Grandma at 2 and I have to have these 5 things done before then. That motivates her.

 

I wish I had pulled back on worrying about academics and made character development more of a priority.

 

Children with LDs need more direction with character, not less. They have a rockier road to travel and need all the tools in their toolbelt that they can accumulate. Strong character and a good work ethic are the best tools anyone can aquire.

 

Hunter-As usual, you're thought-provoking. But HOW would you go about this?

[Mom0012]

Personally, I would do a trial of medication before a trial of PS. If there's a long wait for a child psych eval, I'd ask the pediatrician to write the prescription.

 

:iagree: I understand medication being a last resort, but maybe it's time. :grouphug:

 

Lisa

[Mom22ns]

That is essentially what we've been forced to do, but it is extremely unfair to dd as these are very intense days with ds since he needs literally constant oversight and it means dd doesn't get the help and interaction she both needs and deserves because ALL my time home is taken up with her brother. She is starting to resent it quite a bit, and I can't say I blame her.

 

:grouphug:

I'm sorry. I totally get it. Ds was there a couple of years ago. He has changed dramatically with maturity, but I don't know what I would have done in your situation.

[Hunter]

Hunter-As usual, you're thought-provoking. But HOW would you go about this?

 

Sometimes it means using an "inferior" or lower grade curricula while forcing independence and obedience. For instance putting a workbook page on the table and saying you will not eat or get up from this table other than to use the bathroom until it is done. I found with my son, it wasn't the severity of punishment that worked, but my consistency. I was sometimes able to outlast him, only because I was so very desperate and frightened.

 

I never has anyone who met my son, say they had met a more naturally stubborn and difficult child. I was a very young mom when I had my boys and very low income, and had a heart condition that left me too weak to chase them. I was very strict with them, and people would tell me that though they hated to see me resort to spanking and LONG punishments, they didn't know what other options I had, because they had never seen such a stubborn child, and were clueless about what was the "right" thing to do in such a situation.

 

I did things like not let my 3 year old have dessert, presents or anything other than the basic necessities of life until he agreed to start using the words, "Please, thank you and I'm sorry". It took 3 weeks of deprivation before he agreed to start using them, which was a major inconvenience to those around me who felt bad about excluding him from the activities the other children were engaging in. I didn't yell or threaten or hit. I just used my physical strength to deny him treats until he acted respectful. After 3 weeks, he finally wanted some ice cream more than he wanted to continue saying "I not say those words", while he snatched things out of people's hands.

 

Have you ever heard of the Maudsley method for treatment of Anorexia in children? I do NOT agree with the method for treatment of Anorexia which is a very complex disease but parents might get a few tips from these desperate parents, on how to outlast a child refusing to do something important.

 

And depending on what faith a family is, time needs to be spent on character developing lessons. Books should be chosen that will inspire the character traits you want to encourage, rather than for educational content and bragability.

 

I certainly don't have the answers cause I don't think I did a good job with this child, but I do know that it could have been amazingly worse, if I hadn't of done much of what I did do. And I also will not beat myself up for the mid to later teen years when he was able to use his genius IQ to outsmart me. Just before the GED he was laughing at my lack of ability to keep up with him, and admitted that he had been toying with me and using my lack of certainty about what was an LD to get me to work so hard to spoon feed him the material.

 

My boys were raised in a home where there was domestic abuse, that was condoned by the larger community. They were taught that I was subhuman and inferior to them, and just about everyone else they knew. My youngest especially had a real disrespect for me as he grew older. He didn't dislike me, but just didn't think my time or feelings was important. And when I ceased to be useful to him, in his opinion, he entirely cut me out of his life.

 

Raising LD children is so hard because we are often unsure of ourselves. We work many times as hard to get a fraction of the results. Getting a fraction of the results doesn't mean we aren't good moms. But it can seem that way.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Hunter

[PeterPan]

Sometimes it means using an "inferior" or lower grade curricula while forcing independence and obedience... he had been toying with me and using my lack of certainty about what was an LD to get me to work so hard to spoon feed him the material.

 

Interesting observations. Definitely something to chew on...

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Sometimes it means using an "inferior" or lower grade curricula while forcing independence and obedience... he had been toying with me and using my lack of certainty about what was an LD to get me to work so hard to spoon feed him the material.

 

Interesting observations. Definitely something to chew on...

 

Before we can get "mean" sometimes we have to back up to what we KNOW they can work independently and set things up where we are consistently expecting them to complete a VOLUME of work in a timely manner.

[PeterPan]

I know, I've been chewing on that today, because it means that they aren't actually moving forward at that point, sort of a catch-22. Yeah they can work independently when it's EASY and familiar, but it can't stay that way forever. Actually, the best, best, best thing we did last year was the online self-paced history class with VP. I've wondered whether the BJU dvd stuff (science, whatever) would work for us. We thought about the live VP classes, but they seem to be audio with slides rather than a full video. I'm afraid she'd be off in La La Land, totally wandering. Dh agreed on that btw, and you could even see it when we did the demo. So when there's something else that can totally make it happen and that has the audio plus visual plus something actually engaging, then we have a winner.

 

So yes, I'm just bouncing back with that because, while I think you're right, I was trying to figure out how it works out functionally. What we found before was that we could get say math independent IF the material was review. Review done with a slight uptick in challenge could still be independent. But once she got into stuff that was actually new for her or wigging her out, the independence was gone, even with the same format and materials. Or put another way (the way Jackie on the boards here puts it), I'm not sure she learns well by READING. Kinda makes it hard to move everything independent with that. :(

[Laura in STL]

Personally, I would do a trial of medication before a trial of PS. If there's a long wait for a child psych eval, I'd ask the pediatrician to write the prescription.

:iagree:

I have a ds with ADHD and in his case I don't think ps would have helped at all. I think there are plenty of opportunities for kids to slack off or fall through the cracks at ps. Of course, you know your own son, and this may not be the case for him. The difference for my ds between meds and no meds is night and day. If you are willing to try them, I would go that route first if possible. Most peds or family practice docs will prescribe them, especially if you have a child psych followup scheduled. Perhaps you can explain that you would like to do a trial before the school year arrives.

 

I also have ADHD and am much like your daughter. I reached a point where maturity level allowed me to overcome my symptoms without meds. I also viewed meds as a last resort, so I understand your reasons for wanting to wait it out.

[HiddenJewel]

The one thing to consider is that you will still need to take the time to ensure he gets his homework done even if he does got to public school.

[LauraQ]

Wow, I'm amazed at all the help I've gotten here! I want to thank all of you for your help and suggestions. I think I will talk to our PCP about prescribing something for this child. He'd probably be willing with ds on the wait list. We have another 4 weeks until school starts around here, and while I have to be working on getting him enrolled just in case, I can see that some intensive character work is in order during that time no matter what we do for school.

 

This really is a brilliant child, very sweet and generous, intelligent, loving, respectful, and thoughtful. Just has the attention span of a gnat. I can't thank you all enough for helping me think through all of this!

[PeterPan]

Laura, have you ready anything by Edward Hallowell? I just started his "Answers to Distractions" and it's QUITE good, with lots of really practical ideas and observations. I'm definitely looking for his other books.

[Hunter]

I know, I've been chewing on that today, because it means that they aren't actually moving forward at that point, sort of a catch-22. Yeah they can work independently when it's EASY and familiar, but it can't stay that way forever...

...What we found before was that we could get say math independent IF the material was review. Review done with a slight uptick in challenge could still be independent. But once she got into stuff that was actually new for her or wigging her out, the independence was gone, even with the same format and materials. Or put another way (the way Jackie on the boards here puts it), I'm not sure she learns well by READING. Kinda makes it hard to move everything independent with that. :(

 

You don't need to force independence in EVERY subject to teach independence. You do need to make independence a priority over learning new content and skills, in several subjects a day though. Sometimes those curricula that test who, what and where, instead of how and why are just the thing to use. You know the ones that everyone sneers at?

 

 

What is really hard sometimes is then looking ahead to where that might lead, by grade 10, and panic can set in. We have this very narrow idea of what grades 10 and 11 SHOULD look like, and anything other than that smacks of "bad mom" and "child will die".

 

My gifted child entered the junior college with much higher entrance exam scores than his brother, but did much more poorly there, because of his attitude. In contrast the older son showed up with lower entrance scores, but was determined to graduate as soon as possible, so he could join his older friends that were all settling in Las Vegas.

 

We attended different churches while my boys were teens. White pastors were often pushing college and what it took to prepare for them. In contrast we attended a church that was almost all black, and the pastor constantly pressed the need for character over academics. He said he could teach a young man to read, but could do nothing with the young man with poor character who didn't know how to withstand manual labor. He pressed, and as scared as I was, there were times I took his advice and I don't regret a single incident of choosing character and manual work over academics. Not one.

 

It seems like it should never have to be a choice. Having to choose seems so wrong! But...for some of us, it's a daily choice. Do I spoon feed this child each and every lesson, or do I sacrifice maximum learning to work on independence and learning to WORK.

 

If you choose nothing but the spoon feeding and the child enters the college with great test scores, but a stinking attitude, they won't graduate, even from a junior college. So what will you have accomplished in the LONG run?

Edited July 21, 2011 by Hunter

[PeterPan]

Hunter thanks, that's very thought-provoking!

[lovemykids]

You don't need to force independence in EVERY subject to teach independence. You do need to make independence a priority over learning new content and skills, in several subjects a day though. Sometimes those curricula that test who, what and where, instead of how and why are just the thing to use. You know the ones that everyone sneers at?

 

 

What is really hard sometimes is then looking ahead to where that might lead, by grade 10, and panic can set in. We have this very narrow idea of what grades 10 and 11 SHOULD look like, and anything other than that smacks of "bad mom" and "child will die".

 

My gifted child entered the junior college with much higher entrance exam scores than his brother, but did much more poorly there, because of his attitude. In contrast the older son showed up with lower entrance scores, but was determined to graduate as soon as possible, so he could join his older friends that were all settling in Las Vegas.

 

We attended different churches while my boys were teens. White pastors were often pushing college and what it took to prepare for them. In contrast we attended a church that was almost all black, and the pastor constantly pressed the need for character over academics. He said he could teach a young man to read, but could do nothing with the young man with poor character who didn't know how to withstand manual labor. He pressed, and as scared as I was, there were times I took his advice and I don't regret a single incident of choosing character and manual work over academics. Not one.

 

It seems like it should never have to be a choice. Having to choose seems so wrong! But...for some of us, it's a daily choice. Do I spoon feed this child each and every lesson, or do I sacrifice maximum learning to work on independence and learning to WORK.

 

If you choose nothing but the spoon feeding and the child enters the college with great test scores, but a stinking attitude, they won't graduate, even from a junior college. So what will you have accomplished in the LONG run?

 

Amen! You have such interesting thoughts and observations. I just love your posts. Thanks for hanging out here and blessing us with your acquired wisdom.

 

I choose independence for my children because I think it’s important for them. I happen to believe that we "there is no education but self education" (to echo the words of CM quoting Lord Haldane); "education is a matter of the spirit". Education starts when we learn to educate ourselves, even from a very young age. (Of course, I am not talking about throwing a book at a child and expecting them to learn from it.) But without that self motivation, without any self directed capabilities, how can they really learn?

 

I think the bolded part will be in my new siggy, when I get around to changing it. ;)

[butterflymommy]

My children are all like this to varying degrees. You leave them unsupervised for ten seconds and it's back to square one. They pace, daydream, play, draw, read (but nothing related to school)-- when they do complete work it is often sloppy and riddled with errors. Some are a lot worse than others, and it is so disheartening.

 

Not sure what I'm looking for. Perhaps a radically different idea about how to do this homeschool thing? I'm beginning to think that NOTHING will work with this child.

 

I am in the same place-- I've gone through so many variables in my head and have concluded I need to either accept that a classical homeschool won't work (which would leave us with a more unschooling approach) or, I just throw them all back in school-- because then, like you pointed out, they're not going to have the option of wandering off to pace up and down the hallways for hours. I honestly don't know which would be worse.

 

And as has been pointed out, unless you're prepared to let him blow off school and fail, you will still have homework battles. Not to mention battles over waking up, getting dressed, getting to school on time.

[Hunter]

I once read about a college professor who preferred to teach farm boys, than the town boys. He said the farm boys showed up less prepared, but they had been taught to WORK, and they applied their general work ethic to their studies, and therefore excelled, in the end.

 

I think it's hard to teach a child to WORK on paper. I think it is easier to teach the attitude with manual labor.

 

It was really easy for a farm mom to say there was no breakfast till junior brought in the milk and eggs :-) Learning disabilities or not, she expected him to squeeze those udders and search out any hiding places the chickens could find, and bring that food in the house. It was very, very simple.

 

And junior knew that if he didn't do his school work, his adulthood would be nothing more than udder squeezing and egg searching in the dark, and manure shoveling and hoeing in the daylight. School was the only escape.

[Finnella]

Maybe the paradigm shift is sending your child to ps for a while. I sympathize with your situation very much. We had decided not to HS because of my disability. Then our younger DS hit middle school and was being physically attacked on a daily basis. I was driving him to school because bus transportation had been eliminated, then I would fight with the teachers for his legally required accommodations, and I'd finish up with fighting with the administration over his safety. Meanwhile, DS threw up every day and was learning nothing. I finally decided that I couldn't work much harder on his education by homeschooling.

 

Yet we still struggle with his staying on task when I have to go to a doctor's visit or anything else that takes me away from supervising him. We've had to run school seven days a week to get him through five days of work. He's ADD, just like his father. (I totally understand why this option hasn't worked for you. I'm fortunate that I'm only working with one child right now.)

 

I do agree with other posters that you should try to get him on medication before school starts. It's helped my DS and DH. You've tried so many other strategies, this could be a good time to try medication. I think it's even more important since he'll be in ps. Because it sounds as if your DS will be quiet as he goofs off in class, many teachers will be quite happy to let him do just that. I found that there had been lots of that going on with my DS once I brought him home and started working with him. (Between teacher apathy and my DS's LDs, I'm starting a 12 yo on MUS Alpha after trying some other approaches last year.)

 

You'll also have to make a decision on how hard you're going to fight to get him to do homework. (Thanks to everyone who had insightful things to say about character.) At some point, we have to give our children the opportunity to fail. None of us want to, but it's an important part of their growing up. I think the children who are never allowed to fail because their parents will do their homework for them are being terribly short changed.

 

Whatever you decide, please do not blame yourself. You've tried numerous different approaches to this problem. A truly bad parent wouldn't have bothered with any of that.

[lovemykids]

I agree that sending your ds to PS is not the end of the world. At the very least, it may be a different experience for both of you. I am sure you will have a new set of problems, but that pretty much sums up parenthood.

 

So, an online school wouldn’t work? What about something easy peasy like American School?

 

I am sure you are a great mom. It does sound like you have tried many things. That's all we can do; try our best. The rest is up to our children.

 

Good luck!:grouphug:

[LauraQ]

Quick update: Ran into one of the child psychs in the cafeteria at work yesterday, and asked him for a favor... he enthusiastically agreed to see my son the very next day he's in his office (Tues) but we'll be going a week from Tuesday since ds will be at camp this week. No 4-6 month wait list! Wahoo! This doc was not my first choice, but the benefit is that since I've worked with him at the hospital, and he has a LOT of confidence in my abilities and knowledge, he will definitely listen to me. My first choice I think has a better raport with children, and is more conservative in dosing, but I've only had limited contact with him at work since he *only* sees kids and I only worked adult psych. I was pleased he was so willing to help me out though since I've been away from psych nsg for 2 years now and so rarely have contact with them anymore. Definitely going to try the meds route no matter what now.

 

Thank you all again for all your advice. We spent 3 days this last week working nearly attached at the hip so I could reinforce good work habits and teach good techniques for non-school things (housework etc.) and working on repairing our strained relationship. I'm definitely despairing less and am more hopeful.

[Hunter]

I'm so glad to hear all your good news! :-)

[Capt_Uhura]

Thank you all again for all your advice. We spent 3 days this last week working nearly attached at the hip so I could reinforce good work habits and teach good techniques for non-school things (housework etc.) and working on repairing our strained relationship. I'm definitely despairing less and am more hopeful.

:001_smile::001_smile:

[PeterPan]

I'm so happy for you! We all need good news like that!! :)

[frankcassiesmom]

So glad things are looking up! I have a friend who works long nursing shifts a few times a week. She does a 4 day school week with one being Saturday and does school through the summer.