Qualifications of an elder (obvious CC)

[shinyhappypeople]

How do you balance forgiveness/restoration with 1 Timothy 3:1-7?

 

If you knew a pastor was misrepresenting himself and had a history of misconduct while serving as a church leader, would you say anything? This is in reference to the assoc. pastor of the church I grew up in. (Thanks for helping me process all this, btw.)

 

He had two instances of serious sexual misconduct with congregants. He was suspended after the first time (s** with a woman he was counseling) and fired after the second time. (Not me, fwiw)

 

He tells a white lie about playing for a professional sports team. He says, "I played for the Wombats" (obviously a made-up name) when the reality is that he played for an ultra-low-level farm team in the Wombat's organization. The farm team was called by a different name (e.g. Sillyville Sharks).

 

He's changed his conversion story. The one I grew up hearing is very different than the one he's telling now. At best, he's left out details that would sound "uncool" to people today.

 

After getting fired for messing with a congregant, he went on to serve as a minister in a volunteer capacity for a local organization. After several years, this morphed into a church plant that now has hundreds of attendees every week.

 

He makes no mention of his 15 (approx) years of ministry experience at the church that fired him. He implies that volunteering with this community group was the only official ministry experience he had.

 

I feel like shouting from the rooftops what a sleaze this guy is.

 

But, I can already hear the response: He's only human, forgive him, everyone deserves to be forgiven and restored, etc., or some variation of "Touch not God's anointed." (retch.)

 

I do believe that God's mercy and forgiveness extends to even the worst sinners. Even this guy. But, I can't stop feeling angry that he's left a trail of broken people behind him while a pastor, and still feels somehow qualified to be a spiritual leader.

 

WWYD? Nothing?

[shinyhappypeople]

The other thing I have to consider is that this all has happened in the same town. Many people may not know the history, but plenty of others do know. And no one speaks up. So maybe nobody cares. I could tell, but if nobody cares, why bother?

[JudoMom]

How do you balance forgiveness/restoration with 1 Timothy 3:1-7?

 

If you knew a pastor was misrepresenting himself and had a history of misconduct while serving as a church leader, would you say anything? This is in reference to the assoc. pastor of the church I grew up in. (Thanks for helping me process all this, btw.)

 

He had two instances of serious sexual misconduct with congregants. He was suspended after the first time (s** with a woman he was counseling) and fired after the second time. (Not me, fwiw)

 

He tells a white lie about playing for a professional sports team. He says, "I played for the Wombats" (obviously a made-up name) when the reality is that he played for an ultra-low-level farm team in the Wombat's organization. The farm team was called by a different name (e.g. Sillyville Sharks).

 

He's changed his conversion story. The one I grew up hearing is very different than the one he's telling now. At best, he's left out details that would sound "uncool" to people today.

 

After getting fired for messing with a congregant, he went on to serve as a minister in a volunteer capacity for a local organization. After several years, this morphed into a church plant that now has hundreds of attendees every week.

 

He makes no mention of his 15 (approx) years of ministry experience at the church that fired him. He implies that volunteering with this community group was the only official ministry experience he had.

 

I feel like shouting from the rooftops what a sleaze this guy is.

 

But, I can already hear the response: He's only human, forgive him, everyone deserves to be forgiven and restored, etc., or some variation of "Touch not God's anointed." (retch.)

 

I do believe that God's mercy and forgiveness extends to even the worst sinners. Even this guy. But, I can't stop feeling angry that he's left a trail of broken people behind him while a pastor, and still feels somehow qualified to be a spiritual leader.

 

WWYD? Nothing?

 

He's lying--therefore he's still in sin. It's not like he's admitted to and repented of his previous sin. Repentance is needed for restoration.

 

I would say something.

[justamouse]

Someone has to tell the truth and if it's not done, this guy is going to defraud other people.

 

Yes, forgive him, but that doesn't meant he has to be restored into ministry.

[Carol in Cal.]

It's fine and indeed correct to forgive him if he is repentant.

 

It's not reasonable to consider him qualified for the job of elder. That's not consistent with his past and his present behavior.

[Impish]

He's a predator, and needs to be outed, for the safety of others.

[Princess Peach]

Someone has to tell the truth and if it's not done, this guy is going to defraud other people.

 

Yes, forgive him, but that doesn't meant he has to be restored into ministry.

 

:iagree:

[LaxMom]

He's lying--therefore he's still in sin. It's not like he's admitted to and repented of his previous sin. Repentance is needed for restoration.

 

I would say something.

 

:iagree: my thought exactly. If he is hiding his past, he is still practicing deceit.

[AuntieM]

Restoration refers to being restored to fellowship with the body of believers. It doesn't mean restore him to a position of authority.

 

This man, as you describe him, does not meet the qualifications to be an elder. His current lying/misrepresentation is cause enough, you don't have to go fishing backwards and "count" the other old, previously forgiven transgressions.

[SailorMom]

I would say in his position - lying is a rather serious offense. And this is only the stuff you know about - there may be more....

[Sevilla]

Ick ick ick! I would tell someone.

 

First of all, forgiveness does not mean 'pretend it never happened' and restoration includes the hard work of working through what you did wrong, making amends, and changing behavior/thought patterns to prevent it recurring in the future.

[Little Nyssa]

Is he sorry for what he did? If so, forgive him.

 

But he should not be a leader IMHO.

 

Who decides who gets to be elder? Is it the present elders, or congregational election? If it just a few people, who are in charge of appointing him, or managing the nominations, it would be worth telling them in confidence, "you need to look into this person's record."

 

I'd be hesistant to tell the whole congregation, because that might wreck his family's life, and maybe he is sorry & trying to start over...

[shinyhappypeople]

OK, let's play devil's advocate, shall we?

 

Most of the current info I have about his current church, ministry and life are from a newspaper article that was profiling his current church.

 

What if the "journalist" (who couldn't spare 3 minutes on google to confirm this guy's claims to a pro sports career) made assumptions that weren't explicitly stated by this man? What if the JOURNALIST made the choice to leave out the moral failings and history of ministry at the former church.

 

Does the "pastor" have a responsibility to clarify and correct the errors in the article? Is it deceptive to let the errors stand? Or is it just a lesson in "reader beware." It's not the "pastor's" fault that the reporter wrote what he did.

 

What do you think?

 

I'm thinking about sending an e-mail to the reporter about the errors and omissions. Who knows if it'll get anywhere. But, maybe it would help?

[shinyhappypeople]

Is he sorry for what he did? If so, forgive him.

 

But he should not be a leader IMHO.

 

Who decides who gets to be elder? Is it the present elders, or congregational election? If it just a few people, who are in charge of appointing him, or managing the nominations, it would be worth telling them in confidence, "you need to look into this person's record."

 

I'd be hesistant to tell the whole congregation, because that might wreck his family's life, and maybe he is sorry & trying to start over...

 

He appointed himself. It's a church plant.

[tntgoodwin]

He doesn't sound "beyond reproach" at all to me.

[shinyhappypeople]

I just sent an email to the reporter. I was kind. I gave them all the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully, something GOOD comes out of this.

 

"I read your article about Billy-Bob Zippy Pants and his church.

 

I found one glaring error and some other misrepresentations. Has he or someone representing him contacted you and attempted to clarify the facts? Was a correction or retraction published? I read the article online (linked through the sun-star facebook page).

 

I'm hoping that a correction was made, but I just missed it because it was only published in the print version of the paper. If this is the case, I think it would be a good idea to make sure the online version contains the corrections also.

 

Thank you,"

 

The reporter immediately replied with: "What are the errors?"

 

And I'm a bit freaked, because I'm so scared he's going to downplay the errors and misrepresentations. He's going to tell me I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. In the church I grew up in, the unspoken rule was that you did NOT make a big deal out of clergy failings. They're only human, we all sin, who am I to judge, etc. "Judging" leaders was met with meanness and, ironically, much judging of the judgers.

 

Pray for me. I'll reply to reporter's email later. I'm surprised at how freaked out I feel. Kind of like there's no turning back now.

[8circles]

I just sent an email to the reporter. I was kind. I gave them all the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully, something GOOD comes out of this.

 

"I read your article about Billy-Bob Zippy Pants and his church.

 

I found one glaring error and some other misrepresentations. Has he or someone representing him contacted you and attempted to clarify the facts? Was a correction or retraction published? I read the article online (linked through the sun-star facebook page).

 

I'm hoping that a correction was made, but I just missed it because it was only published in the print version of the paper. If this is the case, I think it would be a good idea to make sure the online version contains the corrections also.

 

Thank you,"

 

The reporter immediately replied with: "What are the errors?"

 

And I'm a bit freaked, because I'm so scared he's going to downplay the errors and misrepresentations. He's going to tell me I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. In the church I grew up in, the unspoken rule was that you did NOT make a big deal out of clergy failings. They're only human, we all sin, who am I to judge, etc. "Judging" leaders was met with meanness and, ironically, much judging of the judgers.

 

Pray for me. I'll reply to reporter's email later. I'm surprised at how freaked out I feel. Kind of like there's no turning back now.

:grouphug: Praying for you. I understand your feelings but you are doing what's right.

[UnsinkableKristen]

I just sent an email to the reporter. I was kind. I gave them all the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully, something GOOD comes out of this.

 

"I read your article about Billy-Bob Zippy Pants and his church.

 

I found one glaring error and some other misrepresentations. Has he or someone representing him contacted you and attempted to clarify the facts? Was a correction or retraction published? I read the article online (linked through the sun-star facebook page).

 

I'm hoping that a correction was made, but I just missed it because it was only published in the print version of the paper. If this is the case, I think it would be a good idea to make sure the online version contains the corrections also.

 

Thank you,"

 

The reporter immediately replied with: "What are the errors?"

 

And I'm a bit freaked, because I'm so scared he's going to downplay the errors and misrepresentations. He's going to tell me I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. In the church I grew up in, the unspoken rule was that you did NOT make a big deal out of clergy failings. They're only human, we all sin, who am I to judge, etc. "Judging" leaders was met with meanness and, ironically, much judging of the judgers.

 

Pray for me. I'll reply to reporter's email later. I'm surprised at how freaked out I feel. Kind of like there's no turning back now.

 

 

You can only control the information you give to him. What he does with it after that is on him.

 

Just simply and without emotion state what you know and can prove to be true and leave it at that. Extrapolation is for the listener.

 

:grouphug: and prayers - this sounds very difficult!

[WishboneDawn]

I just sent an email to the reporter. I was kind. I gave them all the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully, something GOOD comes out of this.

 

"I read your article about Billy-Bob Zippy Pants and his church.

 

I found one glaring error and some other misrepresentations. Has he or someone representing him contacted you and attempted to clarify the facts? Was a correction or retraction published? I read the article online (linked through the sun-star facebook page).

 

I'm hoping that a correction was made, but I just missed it because it was only published in the print version of the paper. If this is the case, I think it would be a good idea to make sure the online version contains the corrections also.

 

Thank you,"

 

The reporter immediately replied with: "What are the errors?"

 

And I'm a bit freaked, because I'm so scared he's going to downplay the errors and misrepresentations. He's going to tell me I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. In the church I grew up in, the unspoken rule was that you did NOT make a big deal out of clergy failings. They're only human, we all sin, who am I to judge, etc. "Judging" leaders was met with meanness and, ironically, much judging of the judgers.

 

Pray for me. I'll reply to reporter's email later. I'm surprised at how freaked out I feel. Kind of like there's no turning back now.

 

Good for you! Spell it all out for him. He may need some names or such to confirm what you've said.

[AuntieM]

Instead of telling him all you know, you might want to phrase it like, "You may want to check with the team organization on the facts regarding his sports career. Also, you might like to learn about more about his previous ministry background at such-n-such church." Let the reporter then do the asking around instead of you just laying it all out for him. Kind of puts the burden on him to get his facts straight, and lets you be responsible but not able to be considered slanderous.

[UnsinkableKristen]

Instead of telling him all you know, you might want to phrase it like, "You may want to check with the team organization on the facts regarding his sports career. Also, you might like to learn about more about his previous ministry background at such-n-such church." Let the reporter then do the asking around instead of you just laying it all out for him. Kind of puts the burden on him to get his facts straight, and lets you be responsible but not able to be considered slanderous.

 

 

Very good suggestion!

[shinyhappypeople]

Thanks.

 

I just bit the bullet and sent a reply to him. At the very least I know that I did something. Even if nothing happens, I know in my heart that I tried.

[unsinkable]

I just sent an email to the reporter. I was kind. I gave them all the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully, something GOOD comes out of this.

 

"I read your article about Billy-Bob Zippy Pants and his church.

 

I found one glaring error and some other misrepresentations. Has he or someone representing him contacted you and attempted to clarify the facts? Was a correction or retraction published? I read the article online (linked through the sun-star facebook page).

 

I'm hoping that a correction was made, but I just missed it because it was only published in the print version of the paper. If this is the case, I think it would be a good idea to make sure the online version contains the corrections also.

 

Thank you,"

 

The reporter immediately replied with: "What are the errors?"

 

And I'm a bit freaked, because I'm so scared he's going to downplay the errors and misrepresentations. He's going to tell me I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. In the church I grew up in, the unspoken rule was that you did NOT make a big deal out of clergy failings. They're only human, we all sin, who am I to judge, etc. "Judging" leaders was met with meanness and, ironically, much judging of the judgers.

 

Pray for me. I'll reply to reporter's email later. I'm surprised at how freaked out I feel. Kind of like there's no turning back now.

 

Wait, your previous church was this board?!?! :tongue_smilie: :lol:

 

Seriously, though...good luck with this. Ask for confidentiality w/the reporter and get confirmation before you give the details.

[ScoutTN]

It's fine and indeed correct to forgive him if he is repentant.

 

It's not reasonable to consider him qualified for the job of elder. That's not consistent with his past and his present behavior.

 

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

He should not be in church leadership at all, even in an informal way.

[shinyhappypeople]

Wait, your previous church was this board?!?! :tongue_smilie: :lol:

 

:D

 

Seriously, though...good luck with this. Ask for confidentiality w/the reporter and get confirmation before you give the details.

 

He replied to my 2nd email that laid out my 3 issues of concern. In the email I made a passing reference to Pastor Zippy Pants being fired from my old church. He said that he'd never heard about that and would I elaborate.

 

Um... yeah, I'll elaborate. But I think insisting on confidentiality is a very smart idea. Thanks for suggesting it.

 

I had a very long talk with my mom today and found out even more stuff about the church (so much s*xual misconduct, so little time...) and Pastor Zippy Pants.

 

Lord have mercy. That's all I can think at this point.

[unsinkable]

:D

 

 

 

He replied to my 2nd email that laid out my 3 issues of concern. In the email I made a passing reference to Pastor Zippy Pants being fired from my old church. He said that he'd never heard about that and would I elaborate.

 

Um... yeah, I'll elaborate. But I think insisting on confidentiality is a very smart idea. Thanks for suggesting it.

 

I had a very long talk with my mom today and found out even more stuff about the church (so much s*xual misconduct, so little time...) and Pastor Zippy Pants.

 

Lord have mercy. That's all I can think at this point.

 

:grouphug: You have my prayers and best wishes. I really admire your courage.

[shinyhappypeople]

VICTORY!

 

From the reporter:

 

"There will be a correction/clarification in tomorrow's paper about the [pro sports issue], which you brought to light. As soon as I looked at [ZippyPants'] minor league stats, I knew there was no way he could have played [with the Wombats].

 

 

I spoke to [ZippyPants] yesterday, and he confirmed that he briefly played minor league baseball -- but did not play on the [Wombats pro team], as he originally told me during our interview earlier this month.

 

 

 

 

 

I should have double checked that information before it went to press, but I took his word for it. Obviously, I know now that was a mistake.

 

 

 

 

I do take my work very seriously, and it's my goal to be as accurate as possible. Thanks again for revealing this information."

SHP here: I'm so glad I spoke up. No regrets at all. Note the bolded part. That was what I was most concerned about. DID ZippyPants actually state that he played for the "Wombats" pro team? I have my answer. It is yes. He hasn't repented if he's still lying. He's not qualified to lead a church. And, that won't make any difference. But, for some reason it makes a difference to ME. So, I'm happy :)

 

 

[unsinkable]

VICTORY!

 

From the reporter:

 

"There will be a correction/clarification in tomorrow's paper about the [pro sports issue], which you brought to light. As soon as I looked at [ZippyPants'] minor league stats, I knew there was no way he could have played [with the Wombats].

 

 

I spoke to [ZippyPants] yesterday, and he confirmed that he briefly played minor league baseball -- but did not play on the [Wombats pro team], as he originally told me during our interview earlier this month.

 

 

 

 

 

I should have double checked that information before it went to press, but I took his word for it. Obviously, I know now that was a mistake.

 

 

 

 

I do take my work very seriously, and it's my goal to be as accurate as possible. Thanks again for revealing this information."

SHP here: I'm so glad I spoke up. No regrets at all. Note the bolded part. That was what I was most concerned about. DID ZippyPants actually state that he played for the "Wombats" pro team? I have my answer. It is yes. He hasn't repented if he's still lying. He's not qualified to lead a church. And, that won't make any difference. But, for some reason it makes a difference to ME. So, I'm happy :)

 

 

 

That's good.

 

What about the s3xual misconduct? Was that brought up?

[Twigs]

Well done for speaking the truth.

[WishboneDawn]

That's good.

 

What about the s3xual misconduct? Was that brought up?

 

I doubt the reporter could really address that. His article wasn't about it and I'm guessing no charges were ever filed. There's a line between correcting bad information and going after Zipper Pants on allegations.

 

Congrats shinyhappypeople!!! You did the right thing and it turned out well. :D

[Little Nyssa]

I guess he "appointed himself" so he would not have to be accountable to anyone. In that case I don't think I'd have any qualms about giving the reporter info.

I hope the reporter will take into account the abuse, though.

[shinyhappypeople]

That's good.

 

What about the s3xual misconduct? Was that brought up?

 

No, but I'm not sure what he could do about it. Maybe it will inspire the reporter to look deeper into the general issue of clergy sexual misconduct. I would LOVE to see that issue exposed.

 

Mostly though, I feel not-crazy. He really did lie. It wasn't my imagination, I wasn't just "misunderstanding." Someone objective, totally outside the organization confirmed it. Maybe I can start to feel not-crazy about other things about this church, too.

 

I've started reading more in the New Testament about local church structure, discipline, dealing with sin, resolving conflict, the whole shebang, and I've found it incredibly comforting. The guidelines are there. Just because this one church flagrantly violated most of them doesn't mean that other churches won't follow these guidelines and prove themselves safe.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

Mostly though, I feel not-crazy. He really did lie. It wasn't my imagination, I wasn't just "misunderstanding." Someone objective, totally outside the organization confirmed it. Maybe I can start to feel not-crazy about other things about this church, too.

 

 

 

I believe that the best thing one can do in a dysfunctional situation is cling to the truth. State it over and over to yourself if you have to, but cling to it. Pray that it will be revealed to those who need to know it, and pray for wisdom and understanding. Remind yourself of how you know what you know. Remind yourself that it's not your job to convince anyone else of it, necessarily, and that someone else's ignorance, willful or not, does not make it untrue. It's hard to do this when things are surreal, but it's really, really important to your spiritual good health.

[shinyhappypeople]

nevermind.

Edited July 28, 2011 by shinyhappypeople