Should obese kids be taken away from their parents?

[YLVD]

My mother was a single mom of 3. When I was in high school she worked over 16 hours everyday managing a McDonald's. We hardly ever saw her except for when she fed us from her McDonald's. If she did not feed us McDonald's it was because I ordered pizza for my brothers and I. She was not lazy. She was an incredibly hard worker who did not graduate from high school, dealt with an undiagnosed mental disorder, was a recovering drug addict, and the survivor of severe mental and physical abuse.

 

I guess it was okay though because we were all thin.

 

Thanks for sharing this. She sounds like a strong person.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Okay, let's say the parent "had" to go to McD's due to money and time constraints. Could she buy happy meals instead of four big macs with a ginormous fry and a large milkshake? Could she sometimes pick up the yogurt and apples instead? Could she get the salad sometimes? Assuming that unless she works at McD's, she could probably hit up a few other places like BK, Wendy's, and Sonic, she could vary the diet a little. But again, she could feed ONE serving, rather than feeding a six year old what four adults would have trouble eating.

 

So two ideas to help mom not make her three year old weight 120 pounds even if she "had" to go to McD's.

 

BTW, we often make the poor choice to go to fast food instead of cooking (though less now that we have so many). The idea is that it is faster and no one has to do it. But really, that is a sorry excuse really. It takes ONE minute (literally) to make a bowl of oatmeal. So for a family of four, it'd be four minutes. Rarely can mom get through the drive through faster. Additionally, if they decide to do that after she gets home, there is NO way she can drive to the drive through and get through faster. Add that a mom can throw together a PB&J or ham sandwich in seconds and it takes even less time to grab an apple off the counter...And not so healthy but 3 packages of ramen noodles with a can of peas thrown in is fast.

 

Ideally they would generally eat healthier but IF they thought about it, they'd probably find options that are fast and more cost effective. Hopefully they eat only one serving of those things rather than four either.

[Jennifer3141]

Okay, let's say the parent "had" to go to McD's due to money and time constraints. Could she buy happy meals instead of four big macs with a ginormous fry and a large milkshake? Could she sometimes pick up the yogurt and apples instead? Could she get the salad sometimes? Assuming that unless she works at McD's, she could probably hit up a few other places like BK, Wendy's, and Sonic, she could vary the diet a little. But again, she could feed ONE serving, rather than feeding a six year old what four adults would have trouble eating.

 

So two ideas to help mom not make her three year old weight 120 pounds even if she "had" to go to McD's.

 

BTW, we often make the poor choice to go to fast food instead of cooking (though less now that we have so many). The idea is that it is faster and no one has to do it. But really, that is a sorry excuse really. It takes ONE minute (literally) to make a bowl of oatmeal. So for a family of four, it'd be four minutes. Rarely can mom get through the drive through faster. Additionally, if they decide to do that after she gets home, there is NO way she can drive to the drive through and get through faster. Add that a mom can throw together a PB&J or ham sandwich in seconds and it takes even less time to grab an apple off the counter...And not so healthy but 3 packages of ramen noodles with a can of peas thrown in is fast.

 

Ideally they would generally eat healthier but IF they thought about it, they'd probably find options that are fast and more cost effective. Hopefully they eat only one serving of those things rather than four either.

 

 

:iagree:

 

There are so many better choices that take less time than McDs!! And are also CHEAPER...

 

The grocery store in rural areas... I use our local store for hotdog bun type foods but never produce, unless they have some of the very rare local stuff. But I'm not big on mega farm products so I drive past 2 cute Mom & Pop stores to drive to our organic co-op a couple fo times a month and stock up.

[Jennifer3141]

Have you lived in an inner city where access to supermarkets that have decent produce is extremely limited, if available at all, unless you have a car?

 

And, do you honestly think it's healthier for kids to eat just salads for dinner every night? Because, it's not. A child who ate nothing but salads for dinner would be lacking protein, carbs, fats, and calories. Honestly, a child who eats McDonald's every night is probably going to be better off in the long run than a child who is passed a plate of lettuce, carrots, and tomatoes, because kids who lack necessary calories, fats, and protein have significant health and learning problems. Obviously a middle ground would be ideal, but to say that it would be better for people to, basically, give their kids a plate of iceburg lettuce every night than to feed that a burger and fries is to show how completely unhealthy our ideas about food are in this country.

 

Actually, my DH and I share a car and I live 30 minutes from our nearest city. So yes, I do have to plan meals and I often am out shopping much earlier or much later than I would prefer. It does require that I PLAN meals. I live near 2 small towns that have country grocery stores so canned veggies, etc. but I don't shop there much because the QUALITY is not there.

 

And at my house, we don't eat iceberg lettuce so when I say "salad," I mean, spinch, kale, butter lettice, red lettuce, etc. And yes, we do eat salads frequently. It's pretty easy to grill chicken and toss it on top. Or shrimp. Or scallops, Or salmon... Salmon is even canned now for crying out loud!

 

I grant that there are places that are food deserts so those parents need to FIX that. Going to McD's in NOT the solution.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Jennifer3141

[Teachin'Mine]

Interesting thoughts here. So I'm getting that some say that by the parents allowing their children the freedom to eat they're the cause of the problem. And that may well be. Another question came to mind - if you follow that reasoning ...

 

Should children who drink and use drugs be removed from their families?

 

And please know that I am not in ANY way saying that the parents are to blame. I'm just curious how the thinking that some have applied to overweight children would apply here.

[Impish]

Interesting thoughts here. So I'm getting that some say that by the parents allowing their children the freedom to eat they're the cause of the problem. And that may well be. Another question came to mind - if you follow that reasoning ...

 

Should children who drink and use drugs be removed from their families?

 

And please know that I am not in ANY way saying that the parents are to blame. I'm just curious how the thinking that some have applied to overweight children would apply here.

Parents aren't allowing children the freedom to eat. Parents are the ones buying and prepping the food. Parents are responsible for what young children put in their mouths. Parents are responsible for ensuring proper medical care. Again' date=' we're talking severe, extreme obesity. If the parents don't take responsibility, than who should?[/b']

 

Parents who supply their kids with booze and alcohol should have their kids removed, absolutely.

[WeeBeaks]

Okay, let's say the parent "had" to go to McD's due to money and time constraints. Could she buy happy meals instead of four big macs with a ginormous fry and a large milkshake? Could she sometimes pick up the yogurt and apples instead? Could she get the salad sometimes?

 

 

Assuming the parent was there due to money constraints, I want to point out that a salad at McDs is twice the price of a burger. And if a kid is eating 4 big Macs (OMG my stomach aches just thinking of it!!!), said kid would probably need a few of those salads to fill up.

 

I'm not advocating that a parent do to McD's at all, just saying that the "healthy" stuff there is more expensive by far than the cheap stuff. Salad is $5ish (??), yogurt, walnuts and apples $4ish maybe? Double cheeseburger? $1 So I can't see someone who is eating there for economic reasons being led terribly much to get the expensive stuff.

[Cheryl in NM]

Assuming the parent was there due to money constraints, I want to point out that a salad at McDs is twice the price of a burger. And if a kid is eating 4 big Macs (OMG my stomach aches just thinking of it!!!), said kid would probably need a few of those salads to fill up.

 

I'm not advocating that a parent do to McD's at all, just saying that the "healthy" stuff there is more expensive by far than the cheap stuff. Salad is $5ish (??), yogurt, walnuts and apples $4ish maybe? Double cheeseburger? $1 So I can't see someone who is eating there for economic reasons being led terribly much to get the expensive stuff.

 

Assuming, the parent is at McD due to money, a prepared bagged salad at the grocery store is $1-$2 dollar and is worth 2 of those McD's salads. Then the parent could go to the deli at the grocery store and purchase a fried chicken thigh for $1 to put on top of the salad. The only thing missing in that meal is fiber. And it's cheaper than a chicken nugget Happy Meal.

 

ETA: You can get a whole loaf of bread for $1. Peanut butter costs $1 and you can find jelly for $1.50. That will make several sandwhiches and satisfy the sweet craving of a child/teen. That's more affordable than McDs and not any less healthy and possibly more healthy.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Cheryl in NM

[lovinmyboys]

My dad and I were actually talking about this the last time I was "home." There is a little girl in his neighborhood who is the same age as my oldest boy (5). She is easily triple his weight-maybe more. (My son is in the 50th percentile). My dad was saying that he just couldn't believe her parents let her get like that, blah, blah, etc. I told him that you really just cannot judge that. I think if someone told me that my son had to become 80lbs overweight to protect his life, I would not be able to get him to be that big-short of feeding him thru a tube or something. I don't think a normal toddler/preschooler would eat 4 Big Macs in one sitting even if you bribed them with their very favorite thing. Something else has to be going on. Also, what is the mom supposed to do? Tell the kid "You're too fat-you have to stop eating." If a child is hungry, they need to eat-obviously it would be nice if it weren't Big Macs.

 

There have been lots of studies done on fat vs. thin people and they show that for the most part people eat similarly.

 

I honestly feel sorry for heavier people. It is something I probably won't ever have to worry about-no one in my family is overweight for generations. My cousin (adopted) is overweight and I see how people look at her when she eats a lot or eats junk. In reality, I don't think she eats any worse than I do and she weighs 100lbs more than I do. I am "allowed" by society to eat at Golden Corral or McDonalds but when she does I see the looks she gets.

 

I think a lot of times people use fast food not because they don't have time to cook, but because they aren't home to eat. At least, that is when we tend to eat it. If we are home we don't go to Wendys-I cook. When we have church, then a birthday party, then an xyz activity we eat fast food. These people are going between 2 jobs and probably dropping their kids off to different places. They aren't home at mealtimes.

 

And, I would LOVE to know how to make a sald in zero time. I swear chopping veggies is what I do all.day.long (but maybe I just have to chop small because I have littles)

[regentrude]

 

Should children who drink and use drugs be removed from their families?

 

 

If the parents supply them with alcohol and drugs: YES

[5kidsforME]

People? :chillpill: Did you read the link? It is just some theorist saying he thinks that possibly kids should be removed.

 

There is not pending legislation, not an organized movement towards this, nothing *real* to be visceral or scared about.

 

 

The fact that someone, then someone else and then a whole mess of people let this get put out, is scarey. Obviously they thought it was worthy enough for an article. It starts out with one small obscure article and then snowballs from there.

 

Something up for legislation doesn't just pop up one day. It has to start somewhere.

[Cheryl in NM]

People? :chillpill: Did you read the link? It is just some theorist saying he thinks that possibly kids should be removed.

 

There is not pending legislation, not an organized movement towards this, nothing *real* to be visceral or scared about.

 

Um, it IS real. Seven states already have legislation to do it.

[WeeBeaks]

Assuming, the parent is at McD due to money, a prepared bagged salad at the grocery store is $1-$2 dollar and is worth 2 of those McD's salads. Then the parent could go to the deli at the grocery store and purchase a fried chicken thigh for $1 to put on top of the salad. The only thing missing in that meal is fiber. And it's cheaper than a chicken nugget Happy Meal.

 

ETA: You can get a whole loaf of bread for $1. Peanut butter costs $1 and you can find jelly for $1.50. That will make several sandwhiches and satisfy the sweet craving of a child/teen. That's more affordable than McDs and not any less healthy and possibly more healthy.

 

I would agree it is what *I* would do. However, in the quote I was responding to the assumption was apparently economic reasons and unavailability of a grocery store?

[RahRah]

 

ETA: You can get a whole loaf of bread for $1. Peanut butter costs $1 and you can find jelly for $1.50. That will make several sandwhiches and satisfy the sweet craving of a child/teen. That's more affordable than McDs and not any less healthy and possibly more healthy.

 

Except that when a child has gained to such an extreme of obesity - PB&J sandwiches are going to exacerbate the problem due to the insulin resistance that's manifest.

[Impish]

Assuming the parent was there due to money constraints, I want to point out that a salad at McDs is twice the price of a burger. And if a kid is eating 4 big Macs (OMG my stomach aches just thinking of it!!!), said kid would probably need a few of those salads to fill up.

 

I'm not advocating that a parent do to McD's at all, just saying that the "healthy" stuff there is more expensive by far than the cheap stuff. Salad is $5ish (??), yogurt, walnuts and apples $4ish maybe? Double cheeseburger? $1 So I can't see someone who is eating there for economic reasons being led terribly much to get the expensive stuff.

See, this is the biggest fallacy.

 

Fast food is NOT cheaper. It simply isn't.

 

I've had a horribly tight budget...the kind where I can't pay the utility bills off b/c I needed groceries. We still have a tight budget, so I tend to track how much meals cost to make.

 

On average, I can make a healthy meal for about $10. And the $10 meal at home usually means leftovers to boot.

 

Give you an example of what I mean.

 

One night, I make chicken thighs ($8) broccoli ($3) and carrots ($3). So that's $14. But, the chicken thighs and left over carrots are used for chicken pot pie the next night. The ingredients for chicken pot pie run me about $5. So, a grand total of $19 for 2 meals, = 9.50 a meal...plus there's left over chicken pot pie that either gets used for lunch, or served with a large salad for supper the next night, which brings the cost down even further.

 

I can barely feed Wolf at McDs for $10, let alone all 5 of us. McDs runs us over $30, probably closer to $40. For a single meal, that tends to leave ppl hungry a cpl of hrs later.

 

Probably the most expensive meals I do are Shrimp Alfredo w/Ceasar salad ($20, plus gluten free pasta for me brings it up to about $23) and wild salmon, broccoli and rice which, depending on the sale, probably ends up around $25...although I usually buy enough salmon for 2 meals.

 

Even steak, mushrooms, burgers (kids don't like steak), baked potatoes and a salad still works out cheaper than McDs would be.

[WeeBeaks]

Fast food is NOT cheaper. It simply isn't.

 

 

You and I appear to have a grocery store. I am extremely fortunate that I have never lived in a place without one accessible to me. I understand that isn't the case for everyone. Telling someone without a grocery to go to the deli at the store isn't going to work. What do those people do?

 

I answered from the perspective of the scenario offered - parents are taking the kids to McD's because it is cheaper for them. Okay. [Compared to the 7/11 maybe? Don't know.]

 

In the above framework, is that parent going to then choose a salad? No. It is more expensive if the reasoning is McD's is the "cheaper" alternative.

 

So in said person in said framework telling them go to the store/deli is not happening for whatever reason - 2 jobs, not at home during dinner, no grocery.

 

Do we just take the kids?

 

I don't know the answer by the way. I do know saying "go to the store" isn't going to work. What will work to get these families on track is probably the million dollar question, right? :tongue_smilie:

[TeenagerMom]

See, this is the biggest fallacy.

 

Fast food is NOT cheaper. It simply isn't.

 

I've had a horribly tight budget...the kind where I can't pay the utility bills off b/c I needed groceries. We still have a tight budget, so I tend to track how much meals cost to make.

 

On average, I can make a healthy meal for about $10. And the $10 meal at home usually means leftovers to boot.

 

Give you an example of what I mean.

 

One night, I make chicken thighs ($8) broccoli ($3) and carrots ($3). So that's $14. But, the chicken thighs and left over carrots are used for chicken pot pie the next night. The ingredients for chicken pot pie run me about $5. So, a grand total of $19 for 2 meals, = 9.50 a meal...plus there's left over chicken pot pie that either gets used for lunch, or served with a large salad for supper the next night, which brings the cost down even further.

 

I can barely feed Wolf at McDs for $10, let alone all 5 of us. McDs runs us over $30, probably closer to $40. For a single meal, that tends to leave ppl hungry a cpl of hrs later.

 

Probably the most expensive meals I do are Shrimp Alfredo w/Ceasar salad ($20, plus gluten free pasta for me brings it up to about $23) and wild salmon, broccoli and rice which, depending on the sale, probably ends up around $25...although I usually buy enough salmon for 2 meals.

 

Even steak, mushrooms, burgers (kids don't like steak), baked potatoes and a salad still works out cheaper than McDs would be.

 

 

Wow. I can feed all 4 of us at McDonald's for $9 and change off of the Dollar menu. $40 is a nice meal at the Mexican restaurant.

[5kidsforME]

Wow. I can feed all 4 of us at McDonald's for $9 and change off of the Dollar menu. $40 is a nice meal at the Mexican restaurant.

 

Yeah, we can feed all the kids and Dh and I at McD's for under $20 and we are more than filled up. My kids are big eaters too. In fact because the food isn't the best for you dh and I usually aren't hungry the rest of the day.

[Snickerdoodle]

When you live in the city and don't have a car that means you have to carry all of your groceries home from where ever. Think about that. Carrying everything you eat on foot.

 

Time is just a huge thing when you live in the city. If you are spending a lot of time walking or taking transport it is exhausting.

 

For many people, take out or delivery of cheap pizza or whatnot is something very, very easy to use.

[Impish]

I don't drive, never have.

 

I've done the 45 minute - hr one way on the bus to the grocery store. Its a miserable trek. It really is, esp with a toddler in tow. But, it can be done.

 

I honestly have a hard time envisioning a situation where there isn't a grocery store within an hour travel, be it from home or work. I could see in rural areas, but at that point, you'd have to have a vehicle to work, wouldn't you?

 

I'm not saying challenges don't exist. I'm saying that claiming fast food is the only food source for a family is ridiculous.

 

Dr. Stix, I'm in Canada. Prices are different here. I'm honestly not even sure we have a dollar menu here! :lol: I know there are certain deals, 2 cheeseburgers for $3 or some such, but frankly, that wouldn't fill my crew up, not even close.

 

We can go to a cheap restaraunt for what McDs costs us, esp if we go Fridays, when kids eat free.

[Snickerdoodle]

Ugh... too much personal info.

[5kidsforME]

Ugh... too much personal info.

 

 

:confused:

[Impish]

I just mean, how much can you carry home on the bus. It really is limited to how much you can carry which means you would be making multiple trips.

I hear you. Like I said, I've never driven, so it was how I lived. Its miserable, no doubt about it, but not impossible.

 

I had a back pack, my toddler had a back pack (could fit a loaf of bread in it, made him feel like a big helper), and probably six bags of groceries, with lots of stopping on the walk home to rest my arms.

 

I was working in home care and LTC facilities at the time. It was loads easier to pick up a bit here and there on my way home from work than the trek from home, but there wasn't really an option. It simply had to be done.

 

The worst was when I worked nights. Nothing was open when I was leaving work other than the corner store.

 

ETA: altered the quote to take out any personal info. Let me know if you want it gone completely.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Impish

[Momof3littles]

The prices most middle class folks are paying at their full-service grocery are not the same prices for produce, etc. that the bodegas charge. You can search for pieces online about this very issue.

 

If a family can find a bodega stocking fresh produce, it is often poor quality or relatively expensive compared to what a fully stocked grocery store charges.

 

I don't think our comparisons of what we pay vs. what some bodegas charge are necessarily fair.

 

NYC is trying to get more grocery stores into urban areas lacking them:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/24/nyregion/24super.html?adxnnl=1&src=twr&adxnnlx=1310760230-1mwnXONjlYRR9ikBJtTrpg

 

Getting fresher, healthier foods into bodegas:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/ceo/html/programs/bodegas.shtml

 

This cites bodegas having a lack of buying power. Sugar is obviously not what we want people looking for, but this article says a bag of sugar runs about 4.50/lb at the bodega vs. 1.45 at a regular grocery store.

http://www.thenewjournalatyale.com/2011/04/a-trip-to-the-corner-store/

 

Since produce is perishable, I can imagine the prices are quite jacked up, if one can even *find* any selection of worthwhile produce.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Momof3littles

[FiveOaksAcademy]

No. We need less, not more of the nanny state.

[Momof3littles]

From NYT in 2006:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/20/nyregion/20bodega.html

 

-only 21 percent of the bodegas in Bedford-Stuyvesant offered apples, oranges and bananas. Supermarkets were four times more likely to carry all three.

-Leafy green vegetables like spinach and kale were found in only 6 percent of the bodegas surveyed. Bodega owners said an important reason they did not carry healthier foods was that they are not very popular.

-Even when healthy food is available, bodegas often charge more for it than supermarkets do. In Bedford-Stuyvesant, the average cost of a gallon of milk was 79 cents more in a bodega than in a supermarket.

 

eta: and even if they could find apples, bananas, and oranges more regularly, these really aren't ideal foods for someone who is insulin-resistant. All 3 are still rather high in sugar and carbs. Better than McDonalds, but not necessarily ideal foods for an IR individual. Fresh veggies? Leafy greens? Berries? Better choices for an IR individual but much tougher to come by in a very urban area w/ limited shopping options.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Momof3littles

[Haiku]

When you live in the city and don't have a car that means you have to carry all of your groceries home from where ever. Think about that. Carrying everything you eat on foot.

 

 

I spent several years working with foster kids and bio families in inner city Philadelphia. North Philly, one of the worst of the worst neighborhoods.

 

I agree that there are not enough/any grocery stores in these neighborhoods.

 

But ... in my experience, someone always had a car. There are large, extended families and tight networks of friends. Someone always has a car, and people can generally get where they want to go. (Now getting where they need to go is a different story ... sometimes there is not the same amount of effort put into getting to a place they need, versus want, to go.) I honestly never saw a bio or kinship family that was lacking for groceries. Some of them ate very well; some ate tons of junk. But getting to the grocery was generally not a problem.

 

I'm not insinuating that it's just poor people who eat crap or that all poor people eat crap. Lots of middle-class and rich people eat crap too. And there need to be better grocery options in inner cities. But on a list of problems that the families I worked with face, access to grocery stores was not on the list.

 

Tara

[RahRah]

When you live in the city and don't have a car that means you have to carry all of your groceries home from where ever. Think about that. Carrying everything you eat on foot.

 

Totally depends on the city.

 

I've lived in the Bronx - grocery delivery (free) from the grocery store 2-miles away; I've lived in DC - grocery delivery ($2) from the grocery store a mile or so away; I've lived in Bridgeport - grocery delivery (free) or through peapod ($5).

 

It was actually easiest to get around and get really high quality groceries was living in the Bronx. Why? The subway - get on anywhere, one fare to anywhere, you buy one of the city carts for groceries ($5-10 one time, you own it, it fold for storage so doesn't take up apartment space) and you can shop ANYWHERE on the subway line, even the poshest neighborhoods; which were often less expensive for groceries than the low-rent areas since they weren't looking to rip-off food stamp recipients!

[YLVD]

When you live in the city and don't have a car that means you have to carry all of your groceries home from where ever. Think about that. Carrying everything you eat on foot.

 

Time is just a huge thing when you live in the city. If you are spending a lot of time walking or taking transport it is exhausting.

 

For many people, take out or delivery of cheap pizza or whatnot is something very, very easy to use.

 

I can so relate to this. I lived in the city as a single mom for several years. It was rough getting grocery shopping done, especially on a strict budget.

[RahRah]

 

I'm not saying challenges don't exist. I'm saying that claiming fast food is the only food source for a family is ridiculous.

 

 

 

I agree - and some of the heaviest people I've seen are living in very rural areas, hours from the nearest fast food restaurant.

[Snickerdoodle]

It was actually easiest to get around and get really high quality groceries was living in the Bronx. Why? The subway - get on anywhere, one fare to anywhere, you buy one of the city carts for groceries ($5-10 one time, you own it, it fold for storage so doesn't take up apartment space) and you can shop ANYWHERE on the subway line, even the poshest neighborhoods;

Because time is never a consideration.

[Snickerdoodle]

Thank you for this interesting thread.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Snickerdoodle

[Momof3littles]

Because time is never a consideration.

 

and lugging multiple kids on the subway or bus while carrying groceries. Maybe doable with one kid, but I wouldn't want to take my 3 kids grocery shopping via the subway, personally. Heck, I don't even like taking them in the van grocery shopping and usually wait for DH to be home so I can grocery shop w/ help (or go on my own). ;)

[RahRah]

Because time is never a consideration.

 

Time is a consideration, but when your health is important to you, you make the time - time to plan meals, time to read the circulars, time to figure out what's the best deal and how to make what's on sale work versus just buying randomly, taking time to plan your route and then doing it. When I lived in the Bronx, I had a car, but it was actually faster to jump on the D, head into Manhattan, jump off the subway, shop and then go back home, than it was to just drive into Manhattan.

 

I also didn't do it all the time - one of the Food Lion's about 2-miles away delivered for FREE within 5-miles, so I shopped there more often than not, but did the Manhattan run for some things that the quality was better (meat for one thing).

[twoforjoy]

My dad and I were actually talking about this the last time I was "home." There is a little girl in his neighborhood who is the same age as my oldest boy (5). She is easily triple his weight-maybe more. (My son is in the 50th percentile). My dad was saying that he just couldn't believe her parents let her get like that, blah, blah, etc. I told him that you really just cannot judge that. I think if someone told me that my son had to become 80lbs overweight to protect his life, I would not be able to get him to be that big-short of feeding him thru a tube or something. I don't think a normal toddler/preschooler would eat 4 Big Macs in one sitting even if you bribed them with their very favorite thing. Something else has to be going on. Also, what is the mom supposed to do? Tell the kid "You're too fat-you have to stop eating." If a child is hungry, they need to eat-obviously it would be nice if it weren't Big Macs.

 

There have been lots of studies done on fat vs. thin people and they show that for the most part people eat similarly.

 

Right. We have no idea how much these kids are eating. And, even if they ARE eating a lot, kids, especially small kids, sometimes eat a lot, no matter what their size. And kids, especially small kids, don't generally eat more than they are hungry for, unless they have an underlying issue or are food deprived. Which is why I think the absolute worst thing we could do for a very fat child, even if they are overeating, is restricting calories and food intake. That will just make them feel out of control and deprived.

 

I honestly feel sorry for heavier people. It is something I probably won't ever have to worry about-no one in my family is overweight for generations. My cousin (adopted) is overweight and I see how people look at her when she eats a lot or eats junk. In reality, I don't think she eats any worse than I do and she weighs 100lbs more than I do. I am "allowed" by society to eat at Golden Corral or McDonalds but when she does I see the looks she gets.

 

My best friend weighs about 400 pounds. She doesn't just eat salads all day, but she doesn't eat a ridiculous amount of food, either. Her mother is very large. Her father is very large. Her aunts and uncles are all very large. I honestly don't think she eats more than I do, and may even eat less, but she weighs more than twice as much.

 

And she is treated horribly. I can go to a Chili's and not have the waitress look twice, but I go with her, and she is given the most horrible looks by the waitress and other patrons. She had a medical problem a few years ago that could have been due to a number of things, one of them being obesity. Of course, her first doctor assumed it was her weight that caused it, and told her that he would not consider ANY other possible cause or treatment until she lost at least 250 pounds (seriously). She found another doctor, that doctor told her she should get off of birth control pills, she did, and the issue cleared up immediately. It infuriates me that she could have become seriously ill because a doctor wouldn't consider that anything other than her weight could have caused a medical issue.

 

It is horrible how very large people are treated in our society. All of the shame and guilt we heap on them is not helping, at all.

[twoforjoy]

Because time is never a consideration.

 

I really think this thread goes to show how deeply fat-prejudice is intertwined with class (and race) prejudice. I'm pretty sure that if affluent people were more likely to be fat instead of poorer people, we would NOT be seeing the kinds of attitudes about fat people that we currently see. We've just transferred a lot of our prejudices about the poor (and racial minorities)--they're lazy, they're stupid, they have no self control, they're dirty, they're smelly, they're just not made of the same kind of moral fiber that we are--that are no longer acceptable onto fat people, where in the same circles where it would be totally unacceptable to say that about a poor person or racial minority, it's totally fine to say it about a fat person.

 

Which is NOT to say that there isn't still plenty of awful prejudice against the poor and racial minorities. My point is that fat prejudice is a way for people "too enlightened" to engage in that kind of prejudice to still hate on poor people and racial minorities without having to feel badly about it or think critically about it.

[YLVD]

Time is a consideration, but when your health is important to you, you make the time - time to plan meals, time to read the circulars, time to figure out what's the best deal and how to make what's on sale work versus just buying randomly, taking time to plan your route and then doing it. When I lived in the Bronx, I had a car, but it was actually faster to jump on the D, head into Manhattan, jump off the subway, shop and then go back home, than it was to just drive into Manhattan.

 

I also didn't do it all the time - one of the Food Lion's about 2-miles away delivered for FREE within 5-miles, so I shopped there more often than not, but did the Manhattan run for some things that the quality was better (meat for one thing).

 

I understand your point. However, that area is unique and not comparable to much of the US.

[Cheryl in NM]

I would agree it is what *I* would do. However, in the quote I was responding to the assumption was apparently economic reasons and unavailability of a grocery store?

 

You can buy all the ingredients of PB&J at a convenience store. So it does apply. A lot of convenience stores here carry apples, bananas and oranges. You could buy apples and peanut butter, some wheat thins (also available at a C-store). Although, I find it hard to beleive that, even in the inner city, people can't find produce.

 

Except that when a child has gained to such an extreme of obesity - PB&J sandwiches are going to exacerbate the problem due to the insulin resistance that's manifest.

 

But Happy Meal won't? See, PB&J IS comparable nutritionally to a Happy Meal. That was my point. In fact, if you go with whole grain bread, HFCS-free, all natural peanut butter and fruit preserves with no added sugar your PB&J is HEALTHIER than a Happy Meal.

[Cheryl in NM]

No. We need less, not more of the nanny state.

 

:iagree:

Amen!

[Cheryl in NM]

Regarding prejudices against "fat" (pp's word) people.

 

I have a prejudice against people who refuse to take responsibility for their behaviors and actions. If I overeat i will gain weight; that's why I'm "fat"! That's my fault and my problem and it's no one else's responsibility to fix me. If I don't teach my kids how to live healthy and they suffer consequences because of it that's my fault. I should be held accountable. Our society is so bent on taking care of everything and not hurting anyone's feelings that people are not allowed to suffer the natural consequences of their behavior. And around we go again.....It creates a cycle that's never ending until someone stands up and says, "I created this mess for myself and I will fix it!" Then they get to work and fix it!

[Impish]

I really think this thread goes to show how deeply fat-prejudice is intertwined with class (and race) prejudice. I'm pretty sure that if affluent people were more likely to be fat instead of poorer people, we would NOT be seeing the kinds of attitudes about fat people that we currently see. We've just transferred a lot of our prejudices about the poor (and racial minorities)--they're lazy, they're stupid, they have no self control, they're dirty, they're smelly, they're just not made of the same kind of moral fiber that we are--that are no longer acceptable onto fat people, where in the same circles where it would be totally unacceptable to say that about a poor person or racial minority, it's totally fine to say it about a fat person.

 

Which is NOT to say that there isn't still plenty of awful prejudice against the poor and racial minorities. My point is that fat prejudice is a way for people "too enlightened" to engage in that kind of prejudice to still hate on poor people and racial minorities without having to feel badly about it or think critically about it.

I've been barely able to keep food on the table and a roof over our heads. I've had to access food banks as a way to feed my family (no food stamps or WIC in Canada). I've been there. For years.

 

I'm also no Barbie.

 

So, the fat prejudice/poor prejudice doesn't apply.

 

I fail to see how saying ppl have the ability to rise up, meet and overcome the challenges they face can be misunderstood as a form of prejudice. It seems to me that its the exact opposite. Saying ppl CAN'T manage b/c they're poor, etc is devaluing them.

 

Challenges suck. Struggling for survival sucks. But, it can be done, and is done, every single day.

[Harriet Vane]

You can buy all the ingredients of PB&J at a convenience store. So it does apply. A lot of convenience stores here carry apples, bananas and oranges. You could buy apples and peanut butter, some wheat thins (also available at a C-store). Although, I find it hard to beleive that, even in the inner city, people can't find produce.

 

 

 

But Happy Meal won't? See, PB&J IS comparable nutritionally to a Happy Meal. That was my point. In fact, if you go with whole grain bread, HFCS-free, all natural peanut butter and fruit preserves with no added sugar your PB&J is HEALTHIER than a Happy Meal.

 

Cheryl, I have lived on the edge of the inner city for fourteen years. I am a white woman who lives in an impoverished African-American neighborhood. I have volunteered with inner-city ministries extensively and have many friends and acquaintances who live in the most terrible neighborhoods of Chicago.

 

Hard as it may be to grasp, there ARE places where it is very, very difficult to find actual fruits and vegetables. Convenience stores in the 'hood generally do not stock the items you have mentioned, though I have seen convenience stores in more affluent and/or rural areas that do so.

 

It's even harder to find and prepare good, wholesome food when you've never been taught. There are truly some people who are doing their level best, who are loving parents, and who cannot access decent food easily and who have not been taught even to seek it out or how to prepare it. And frankly, all too often, the most overwhelming need in their daily life is staying SAFE. This concern can and does overshadow many other important things.

 

Just my experience . . .

[Cheryl in NM]

Cheryl, I have lived on the edge of the inner city for fourteen years. I am a white woman who lives in an impoverished African-American neighborhood. I have volunteered with inner-city ministries extensively and have many friends and acquaintances who live in the most terrible neighborhoods of Chicago.

 

Hard as it may be to grasp, there ARE places where it is very, very difficult to find actual fruits and vegetables. Convenience stores in the 'hood generally do not stock the items you have mentioned, though I have seen convenience stores in more affluent and/or rural areas that do so.

 

It's even harder to find and prepare good, wholesome food when you've never been taught. There are truly some people who are doing their level best, who are loving parents, and who cannot access decent food easily and who have not been taught even to seek it out or how to prepare it. And frankly, all too often, the most overwhelming need in their daily life is staying SAFE. This concern can and does overshadow many other important things.

 

Just my experience . . .

 

Thank you for your viewpoint. But in the 'hood, is McD's really the least expensive and healthiest option? Have you ever looked at the nutritional info? In the 'hood does the c-store have canned fruit (maybe in light syrup), canned tuna, mayonnaise, bread, peanut butter, jelly? I would still maintain that theses items are healthier than McD's.

 

Every time I mention educating poverty stricken people how to live healthy on the board I am crucified. People can't believe that I am so judgmental that I think just because someone's poor they don't know how to live healthy. I'm glad that a long-time member held in high regard agrees with me on this point. I wish we could get produce into the inner cities, it completely baffles me that we can't. It also completely baffles me the amount of people that don't know how to live healthy!

 

I lived near DC for awhile. We were at the last stop on the Metro, 12 miles from DC. There was a Safeway grocery store there. The prices were cheaper than Salt Lake City and Albuquerque. Why can't people hop on the Metro & pick up a few days worth of food?

Edited July 16, 2011 by Cheryl in NM

[WishboneDawn]

Thank you for your viewpoint. But in the 'hood, is McD's really the least expensive and healthiest option? Have you ever looked at the nutritional info? In the 'hood does the c-store have canned fruit (maybe in light syrup), canned tuna, mayonnaise, bread, peanut butter, jelly? I would still maintain that theses items are healthier than McD's.

 

Every time I mention educating poverty stricken people how to live healthy on the board I am crucified. People can't believe that I am so judgmental that I think just because someone's poor they don't know how to live healthy. I'm glad that a long-time member held in high regard agrees with me on this point. I wish we could get produce into the inner cities, it completely baffles me that we can't. It also completely baffles me the amount of people that don't know how to live healthy!

 

Now you're talking about issues of education and literacy though, another obstacle in those exact neighbourhoods where fresh food is a problem.

 

None of that is an excuse for why there kids can't eat healthy. What it should be is a call to action for those of us who are in the position to help somehow.

[Momof3littles]

Canned products lined w/ BPA have been linked to central adiposity and insulin resistance. I toss that out there because I often think about the people eating from food banks, etc. and how this is another case of how poverty really disadvantages people from a health standpoint. Certainly it is preferable to not eating, but it certainly comes w/ challenges. Relying heavily on canned goods for your fruit/veggie intake could potentially exacerbate a problem with insulin resistance.

 

If they could find tuna in the local bodega, I wonder what the markup would be? If they are marking sugar up from 1.50 a package at the regular full-service supermarket to 4.50/bag at the bodega...I think it stands to reason things like tuna (if someone could find it) might be substantially marked up. One can of tuna doesn't go very far when feeding a family, so any mark up would be felt even more since the family would really need 2 or 3 cans of tuna to get any substantial protein. If bread is available, I'm going to guess it is going to be something more like wonderbread.

 

I worked in early intervention when I was fresh out of graduate school. It was positively shocking to me as a new grad (from a middle class family) how many of the families I worked with lived. I'll admit I was frustrated when people wouldn't call to cancel their appts and I would knock on their door several weeks in a row with no answer. It took time for me to realize some of these families didn't know where the rent money was coming from next week, or how they were going to pay the heating bill that month. Their priorities were different, because they were often functioning strictly in survival mode. I worked w/ families where the parents were trying to heat the house using the oven. That kind of poverty is what makes it hard to schlep all over to find healthy groceries (with several kids in tow) when you don't have a car. It is so intertwined w/ literacy, etc. as well like the PP said.

[Cheryl in NM]

Canned products lined w/ BPA have been linked to central adiposity and insulin resistance. I toss that out there because I often think about the people eating from food banks, etc. and how this is another case of how poverty really disadvantages people from a health standpoint. Certainly it is preferable to not eating, but it certainly comes w/ challenges. Relying heavily on canned goods for your fruit/veggie intake could potentially exacerbate a problem with insulin resistance.

 

If they could find tuna in the local bodega, I wonder what the markup would be? If they are marking sugar up from 1.50 a package at the regular full-service supermarket to 4.50/bag at the bodega...I think it stands to reason things like tuna (if someone could find it) might be substantially marked up. One can of tuna doesn't go very far when feeding a family, so any mark up would be felt even more since the family would really need 2 or 3 cans of tuna to get any substantial protein. If bread is available, I'm going to guess it is going to be something more like wonderbread.

 

I worked in early intervention when I was fresh out of graduate school. It was positively shocking to me as a new grad (from a middle class family) how many of the families I worked with lived. I'll admit I was frustrated when people wouldn't call to cancel their appts and I would knock on their door several weeks in a row with no answer. It took time for me to realize some of these families didn't know where the rent money was coming from next week, or how they were going to pay the heating bill that month. Their priorities were different, because they were often functioning strictly in survival mode. I worked w/ families where the parents were trying to heat the house using the oven. That kind of poverty is what makes it hard to schlep all over to find healthy groceries (with several kids in tow) when you don't have a car. It is so intertwined w/ literacy, etc. as well like the PP said.

 

So McD's, twinkie and ho-ho's are healthier than wonderbread and the canned products mentioned above?

[Momof3littles]

So McD's, twinkie and ho-ho's are healthier than wonderbread and the canned products mentioned above?

None of it is going to fix obesity, IMO. I don't think either is a great option. Yes, they'll keep someone fed. Yes, that's preferable to starving. Maybe they'll be less expensive than fast food (although I'm not certain). But I don't think wonderbread and canned fruit are going to make great strides toward making an obese child less obese.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Momof3littles

[Audrey]

Okay, let's say the parent "had" to go to McD's due to money and time constraints. Could she buy happy meals instead of four big macs with a ginormous fry and a large milkshake? Could she sometimes pick up the yogurt and apples instead? Could she get the salad sometimes? Assuming that unless she works at McD's, she could probably hit up a few other places like BK, Wendy's, and Sonic, she could vary the diet a little. But again, she could feed ONE serving, rather than feeding a six year old what four adults would have trouble eating.

 

So two ideas to help mom not make her three year old weight 120 pounds even if she "had" to go to McD's.

 

BTW, we often make the poor choice to go to fast food instead of cooking (though less now that we have so many). The idea is that it is faster and no one has to do it. But really, that is a sorry excuse really. It takes ONE minute (literally) to make a bowl of oatmeal. So for a family of four, it'd be four minutes. Rarely can mom get through the drive through faster. Additionally, if they decide to do that after she gets home, there is NO way she can drive to the drive through and get through faster. Add that a mom can throw together a PB&J or ham sandwich in seconds and it takes even less time to grab an apple off the counter...And not so healthy but 3 packages of ramen noodles with a can of peas thrown in is fast.

 

Ideally they would generally eat healthier but IF they thought about it, they'd probably find options that are fast and more cost effective. Hopefully they eat only one serving of those things rather than four either.

 

Well said... It's not the fast food that's the problem. Lots of fast food places have options that are healthier choices. But... you don't have to get the kid FOUR of anything.

 

FWIW, I love going to McDonald's because I adore their Spicy Thai chicken salad and the Tuscan chicken salad. I haven't eaten a french fry in over a year and a half. While I wouldn't say it is ideal, you can eat decently at fast food places, but you have to TRY.

[YLVD]

You can buy all the ingredients of PB&J at a convenience store. So it does apply. A lot of convenience stores here carry apples, bananas and oranges. You could buy apples and peanut butter, some wheat thins (also available at a C-store). Although, I find it hard to beleive that, even in the inner city, people can't find produce.

 

 

 

But Happy Meal won't? See, PB&J IS comparable nutritionally to a Happy Meal. That was my point. In fact, if you go with whole grain bread, HFCS-free, all natural peanut butter and fruit preserves with no added sugar your PB&J is HEALTHIER than a Happy Meal.

 

I grew up in an inner city area. There was no produce at the corner stores. Many people did not have transportation to get out of the inner city. There were liquor stores and corner markets, that's it.

[historically accurate]

Well said... It's not the fast food that's the problem. Lots of fast food places have options that are healthier choices. But... you don't have to get the kid FOUR of anything.

 

FWIW, I love going to McDonald's because I adore their Spicy Thai chicken salad and the Tuscan chicken salad. I haven't eaten a french fry in over a year and a half. While I wouldn't say it is ideal, you can eat decently at fast food places, but you have to TRY.

 

Those salads sound yummy; our McD's doesn't have either one. :glare: