Parrothead Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Oral tradition; same way a lot of information is/was/has been transferred between people and generations :) religious, or otherwise. :iagree: This was my first thought also. These books have only been in print a very very short time compared to the length of human history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nd293 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I'm not sure if your question is intended only for those who do believe in a god, but for me, reading the book of my religion (and reading about the books of other religions) was not enough - I could not find anything independent to sustain belief. I would say that my ds4 has been raised entirely without religious influence, and I recently tried to explain the concept of gods to him (in the context of Greek mythology) - I found it impossible to get the concept across without resorting to traditional religious language and concepts, which in themselves mean nothing to him because he hasn't been raised with them. Obviously as he gets older and can think more abstractly, this will change, but I found the experience thought-provoking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Which is why at some intersection, faith departs from science because faith accepts without reason, an idea that is incongruent with known science. Faith and science aren't "incongruent", they just don't lie in the same planes as it were. If a two-dimensional shape exists on the x & y planes, and some other two-dimensional shape exists on the y & z planes, then those two shapes would never, ever come into contact with each other. But it would be absurd to say that because of it, one is "true" and the other "false". It *DOES* exist, you just have to stop being so narrow-minded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Here is something I can't wrap my head around. If a God is all-powerful, omnipotent and omnipresent, why would he need to to send his son (or part of himself) to be torture and murdered as a way to bring salvation to mankind? Why not just say: Poof! And what is the logic of having man kill God (which can't really happen if God's are immortal, can it?) and then being rewarded with salvation for being murderers? I can not wrap my head around that. More magic and mystery? Bill Christ could've gotten down off the cross at any time. He bore the suffering because all of us deserve to suffer for our sins and He loves us too much to want that to happen. The brutality was the point- a visible reminder of the suffering from which we have been saved by Christ's sacrifice. He died as the perfect act of love. As a mom, I am abjectly humbled by the love that God has shown for us as His children. I pray regularly that God will help me be even a tiny fraction of how selfless and loving as He has been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 How would you know God exists? This isn't a question of, "do unreached people go to Hell?" I mean, "How do YOU know God is real? That He is there?" Without the answer being, "because the Bible tells me so." (absolutely no snark! totally genuine question :D) Something I have been turning over in my head and was just curious about others thoughts. :001_smile: Scripture talks about how man (mankind) already has an internal "knowing" of Him (whether they admit to it, don't admit to it, or deny it). We are, by nature, religious beings. Creation proclaims His existence. (and yes, I know that every atheist will disagree with me on this, but this is my answer and my belief). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Oral tradition; same way a lot of information is/was/has been transferred between people and generations :) religious, or otherwise. I agree with this also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Christ could've gotten down off the cross at any time. He bore the suffering because all of us deserve to suffer for our sins and He loves us too much to want that to happen. The brutality was the point- a visible reminder of the suffering from which we have been saved by Christ's sacrifice. He died as the perfect act of love. As a mom, I am abjectly humbled by the love that God has shown for us as His children. I pray regularly that God will help me be even a tiny fraction of how selfless and loving as He has been. By what logic does mankind (as a species) have a doorway to salvation opened by the act of murdering God-incarnate? One would think that would be considered a "reprehensible act" (to say the least) and not something that would bring "reward." Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorMom Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) Fractals, the Golden Mean, Fibonnachi sequence, DNA Google deism.... :) You have to remember, not all theoology is as complicated and incomprehensible as revealed religion. I'm not saying that as an insult - most Christians I know cannot really explain the Trinity - they take it on faith - and admit to this themselves. I do not believe in original sin, therefore, no need for salvation.... it's much more simple :) Edited July 4, 2011 by SailorMom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JVA Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I haven't read any of your responses but this has an easy answer for me. Creation (nature- the earth, botany, the animals, the food chain, how the human body is so complex and carries out so many functions, the weather cycle, the heavens and how glorious they are and on and on) itself declares it. The incredible intracacies, detail and layer upon layer of functions show me that this could not all happen due to chance. The beauty of our world and the universe show me that only a Creator with power, creativity and a love for the people he made could have pulled it all off. I am convinced by creation alone. Don't even get me started on His desire to be in fellowship with us and providing the way to do it. He is full of grace and compassion for us all. I hope you can come to know the Almighty God. He dearly loves you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtroad Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I walk out my door and see the MAGNIFICENCE of His work.... I breathe deeply and feel the invigoration.... I hold my toddlers hand and feel the MIRACULOUS gift of life.... Man never created anything as elaborate as a snowflake, as complex as a puppy, and as beautiful as a flower. By the sight, sound, smell, touch, and feel of the created, I know there is a Creator.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Faith and science aren't "incongruent", they just don't lie in the same planes as it were. If a two-dimensional shape exists on the x & y planes, and some other two-dimensional shape exists on the y & z planes, then those two shapes would never, ever come into contact with each other. But it would be absurd to say that because of it, one is "true" and the other "false". It *DOES* exist, you just have to stop being so narrow-minded. How is the concept of the two planes developed except by knowing what "planes" are? That knowledge is obtained in very specific ways, namely, through the process of applying reason and logic to an idea. The scientific method has made this process systematic. We know what we know because of discerning reasonable thought and through the scientific method. To suggest we can know something that falls outside what we know is simply nonsense. It doesn't make any reasonable sense. Emotions are often (if not exclusively) used as a kind of evidence of the supernatural. Emotions are something we know about and we're learning more every day. Neurology is a fascinating field as we're learning how to study consciousness in a scientific methodology. These emotions, these senses of "knowing" are attributed to supernatural phenomena when that supernatural vocabulary is a part of one's consciousness. Because humans have evolved with a strong emotional reaction to events and ideas, it's easy to understand how this has developed into the idea of polytheism and monotheism. Having a tangible way to explain such phenomena, however, renders the supernatural explanation unnecessary. To suggest it exists *anyway* is incongruent with how science works. Ultimately, there is a parting of ways. It's not a matter of being narrow minded but of having access to information and being trained to develop reason through the such practices like paying attention to and carefully analyzing detail. It's part of what we as home educators want for our children - a well trained mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 The only way it might be different is if I lived in a time and place where no knowledge of science existed, and I was told by my elders from the beginning of my life that a spirit or god was in control of things that weren't otherwise explained. This is the only way I can conceive of "knowing" there's a god too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) Christ could've gotten down off the cross at any time. He bore the suffering because all of us deserve to suffer for our sins and He loves us too much to want that to happen. The brutality was the point- a visible reminder of the suffering from which we have been saved by Christ's sacrifice. The idea of a bloodlust to appease God's feeling of offence was common enough before Christianity and before Judaism. Sacrificing those things of most value have, through the ages, has shown humanity's desire to bond with the unknowable spiritual world in such a way as to keep them safe ultimately. This is incompatible with the idea of a merciful, loving God and so the idea that Jesus (God himself) took on that role has been the reason Christians are thankful. But that distracts from the fact that the bloodlust is still there. God, for some reason, still required blood to be spilled, else his wrath would not be contained. He died as the perfect act of love. As a mom, I am abjectly humbled by the love that God has shown for us as His children. I pray regularly that God will help me be even a tiny fraction of how selfless and loving as He has been. Selfless and loving would not first condemn you or your children for something that you have no power over. Edited July 4, 2011 by albeto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 By myself? Nature, supernovas, science, the human machine, watching photosynthesis. As a community? Oral tradition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LidiyaDawn Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Albeto ~ as someone who has gone back and forth a lot and really isn't sure *what* I believe anymore, I'm finding your posts quite interesting. You've got me thinking today…something I haven't done for a bit… [new baby/fuzzy sleep deprived brain LOL] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate CA Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Magic and mystery. Something can't some out of nothing, except when it can. Not exactly logical. Bill She didn't say He came out of nothing. He has always been. There is a big difference between those two things. He wouldn't be God if He had a beginning because something would have preceded Him. He is unto Himself all-sufficient. That is mystery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Albeto ~ as someone who has gone back and forth a lot and really isn't sure *what* I believe anymore, I'm finding your posts quite interesting. You've got me thinking today…something I haven't done for a bit… [new baby/fuzzy sleep deprived brain LOL] I've been reading Sam Harris' blog lately. He's got some fascinating (imo) neurological explanations for things we have been taught to think of as "spiritual truths." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I don't know. I always knew even though I was raised in a household that didn't talk about God. I converted to the JWs when I was a teen because I thought that was what I should do, lived most of my married life as one. I had questions that I thought would eventually be answered, but they were not. I finally went to the elders and they couldn't answer my questions. I left because I wanted God wherever He was and I'd always felt Him there. Now I'm a mainstream Christian, with my questions answers BTW, and very happy. God always just was since I can remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 She didn't say He came out of nothing. He has always been. There is a big difference between those two things. He wouldn't be God if He had a beginning because something would have preceded Him. He is unto Himself all-sufficient. That is mystery. I don't know. It doesn't seem any different to me. It's still, as Bill said, magic and mystery. And not logical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I don't know. It doesn't seem any different to me. It's still, as Bill said, magic and mystery. And not logical. It's not the same. There was no creating of God. There is a different between creating something out of nothing and something having always been. One includes a creation event and a time when that which was created didn't exist. Neither is true regarding the existence of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6packofun Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 There is something called "natural revelation," seeing God in His creation, and there is the belief/verse that says God writes His law in our hearts. A consistent moral code (killing is bad, etc.) through history and civilizations (or at least in most...) is an example of this. There is also the anecdotal point that no one ever discovered a tribe of atheists. At a basic level, before we "intellectualize" it away, I believe people can feel the part of themselves that is missing God. (Atheists, feel free to ignore. It's my own opinion and observation. Everyone I know personally had a bad experience with "religion" before they stopped believing in God.) :iagree: Yes, this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I don't know. I always knew even though I was raised in a household that didn't talk about God. God always just was since I can remember. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Magic and mystery. Something can't some out of nothing, except when it can. Not exactly logical. Bill Well, Bill, where did the matter and energy that makes up the universe come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ma23peas Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 OH my goodness, how I can answer this question!! Because I KNOW He is with me!! My family (extended and beyond) have passed on generation to generation amazing stories that are in no way possibly coincidental...here are a few.... My uncle who was one of 13 children had not seen one particular brother in over 20 years! Military and family commitments kept everyone moving...that particular year they had planned to meet later in the summer for a reunion...that spring both brothers had planned a road trip (one from Arizona, the other from Georgia) neither had told the other about it or any other family members....my uncle has a penchant for Hardee's biscuits and saw one off the interstate (in Florida)..my aunt did not want to stop, it was a short weekend and she wanted to spend time at the beach...but he was relentless and said, Okay, you get in line and I'll run to the bathroom and let's get back on the road. My uncle got in line behind a gentleman, not seeing his face, when my aunt came out of the bathroom she was STUNNED to see her husband's brother standing right in front of him in line!! It was amazing!!! God knows the desires of the heart! My life is a continual road like the one above....God brings people into my life whether it be to get my attention about starting a scouting troop, to getting my kids to a rowing club event, homeschooling activities...it's amazing when I'm not 'paying attention' to the first few hints, he'll put someone in my path to remind me!! Sometimes I do not know the reason He wants me to do things, but I know that He does!! Even in struggles, I see Him needing me in that place for certain reasons....He has always always provided and I have strived to always always give Him the credit.... Just like a good father cares for their children on earth, our Heavenly one does so in much more supernatural ways....He is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I probably felt God most strongly when I was taking Anatomy & Physiology at a CC. To look at the human body in detail, how everything is put together and works... pretty awe inspiring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Well, Bill, where did the matter and energy that makes up the universe come from? Why does it have to come from somewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Why does it have to come from somewhere? Well then why would God have to come from somewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Well then why would God have to come from somewhere? The existence of matter isn't debatable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 The existence of matter isn't debatable. I said that because Spy Car thinks it's illogical for something to exist without a beginning. So, I wonder where he thinks matter began. Is that so strange to you that I would ask that question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama2Many4 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Well then why would God have to come from somewhere? I believe we are wasting our time. That's why I humbly backed out of this convo. Some people are quite content living a life where answering to a higher power would put a damper on their "fun". Therefore, they would rather just pretend and convince themselves in their own heads that He doesn't exist. I take comfort in knowing that they have been given all the "proof" that they require, straight from the source. Their judgement will be just, fair and determined by their actions in this life. Oh, and the world's flat don't ya know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I said that because Spy Car thinks it's illogical for something to exist without a beginning. So, I wonder where he thinks matter began. Is that so strange to you that I would ask that question? Are you basing Spy Car's thoughts on this post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I believe we are wasting our time. That's why I humbly backed out of this convo. Some people are quite content living a life where answering to a higher power would put a damper on their "fun". Therefore, they would rather just pretend and convince themselves in their own heads that He doesn't exist. I take comfort in knowing that they have been given all the "proof" that they require, straight from the source. Their judgement will be just, fair and determined by their actions in this life. Oh, and the world's flat don't ya know. This is so laughable that it's not even offensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama2Many4 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 This is so laughable that it's not even offensive. I don't see what's laughable about it? Some people choose to sleep around, steal, gossip, slander, are gluttonous, etc. It's a lot easier to do those things if you convince yourself that God doesn't exist. Otherwise you would have to live the straight and narrow like everyone else. I'm offended by others questioning God's existence. I've kept it to myself, maybe you could learn some self control as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I believe we are wasting our time. That's why I humbly backed out of this convo. Some people are quite content living a life where answering to a higher power would put a damper on their "fun". Therefore, they would rather just pretend and convince themselves in their own heads that He doesn't exist. May I gently suggest that a rejection of Christian theology isn't based on avoiding guilt for having "fun" but a rejection of the basic premises of the faith itself. I take comfort in knowing that they have been given all the "proof" that they require, straight from the source. Their judgement will be just, fair and determined by their actions in this life. An interesting comment considering the purpose of the thread. How is this "proof" discerned outside written works? If by "proof" you mean understanding coincidences to have been purposefully played, then why not attribute coincidences to any one of a number of conspiracies? Why is the Satan conspiracy the right one when we have so many to choose from, so many that will work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama2Many4 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I mean the "proof" of Jesus Christ performing miracles and saying that he IS God. I don't know about you or any other human, but I can't walk on water, raise the dead, restore sight to the blind with a wave of my hand, turn water into wine, make 5 fish and 2 loaves of bread multiply, and die and raise MYSELF from the dead 3 days later. Jesus is proven to have lived by historical accounts. The bible actually came much later. So yeah, that's all the proof I need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I don't see what's laughable about it? Some people choose to sleep around, steal, gossip, slander, are gluttonous, etc. It's a lot easier to do those things if you convince yourself that God doesn't exist. Otherwise you would have to live the straight and narrow like everyone else. I'm offended by others questioning God's existence. I've kept it to myself, maybe you could learn some self control as well. I am far from offended by your belief in God. I am, however, amazed by your quick judgment of others who do not believe as you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama2Many4 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I am far from offended by your belief in God. I am, however, amazed by your quick judgment of others who do not believe as you do. I don't judge others. I said "some" people choose not to believe so they can do as they please. I've known some. Others are just lost little sheep, needing to be guided back. That's *my* belief about why they don't believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I mean the "proof" of Jesus Christ performing miracles and saying that he IS God. I don't know about you or any other human, but I can't walk on water, raise the dead, restore sight to the blind with a wave of my hand, turn water into wine, make 5 fish and 2 loaves of bread multiply, and die and raise MYSELF from the dead 3 days later. Jesus is proven to have lived by historical accounts. The bible actually came much later. So yeah, that's all the proof I need. But this isn't proof any more than Huckleberry Finn is proof of a life of liberty from the constraints of an oppressive society. Without these stories, would you have found God as you know him to be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama2Many4 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 But this isn't proof any more than Huckleberry Finn is proof of a life of liberty from the constraints of an oppressive society. Without these stories, would you have found God as you know him to be? Yes. By word of mouth regarding these miracles. If I walked outside and saw a man lift up a building with nothing but his two hands, you best believe I would be telling everyone I know. I'd also be relaying to stories till the day I die. So did the people who lived in His time. Generations having been passing down these accounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Yes. By word of mouth regarding these miracles. If I walked outside and saw a man lift up a building with nothing but his two hands, you best believe I would be telling everyone I know. I'd also be relaying to stories till the day I die. So did the people who lived in His time. Generations having been passing down these accounts. So I wonder if the question in the OP could include not only no access to religious texts, but also no access to religious stories. Would one who has never heard the Jesus story (or Mohammed story or Moses story) still develop a concept of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim theology? I'll wager you've never seen a man lift up a building with nothing but his two hands, nor have you ever seen a man walking on water or turning water into wine. You've heard these stories and you attribute unexplained coincidences to fit within the story line of this belief system. Without having heard the stories, wouldn't you attribute unexplained coincidences to whatever local belief system you were raised to hear and know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I don't judge others. I said "some" people choose not to believe so they can do as they please. I've known some. Others are just lost little sheep, needing to be guided back. That's *my* belief about why they don't believe. And I suspect that you would be quite offended if nonbelievers stated why they think others do believe and then simply said, "That's *my belief about why they do believe." It's not very pretty when you try to think for others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Yes. By word of mouth regarding these miracles. If I walked outside and saw a man lift up a building with nothing but his two hands, you best believe I would be telling everyone I know. I'd also be relaying to stories till the day I die. So did the people who lived in His time. Generations having been passing down these accounts. As with any stories that are told, the stories get larger and larger as they are told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 So I wonder if the question in the OP could include not only no access to religious texts, but also no access to religious stories. Would one who has never heard the Jesus story (or Mohammed story or Moses story) still develop a concept of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim theology? I find it interesting to think about the variety of religious systems that developed before the spread of Christianity and Islam. I don't think Judaism was every widely spread - was it ? I think of civilizations and tribes back in the times before either the Christian or Muslim concepts had grown and traveled, and what we know of what they believed. Many different ideas, with some common threads, but also very different from each other. People have been coming up with religious ideas for a long time. The idea of sacrifice has been part of a lot of them. Some have been monotheistic. It is a good question...if time rewound, would the same religious ideas develop again ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarlaS Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I don't judge others. I said "some" people choose not to believe so they can do as they please. I've known some. Others are just lost little sheep, needing to be guided back. That's *my* belief about why they don't believe. I guess the question is can people really just choose to believe? Just decide to believe and do it? There is a theory, which seems to be borne out by those who do put significant effort into believing and just can't (Some even go so far as to become pastors), that it's genetic. You're either wired that way or you're not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama2Many4 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Well, I must say that I've never heard of this theory. But I suppose it could be the same as one who is gay trying to *become* straight by living a lie. They are who they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I guess the question is can people really just choose to believe? Just decide to believe and do it? That is an interesting question, I agree. I think in short, what we know (or what we don't know) is a huge part of the equation. One reason "knowledge is power" is that in knowledge, one has more options from which to explore. Well, I must say that I've never heard of this theory. One of the dangers of encouraging believers to "just believe" or "just trust God" or "just have faith" or however the idea is expressed, is that in limiting the information, one has limited ideas from which to interpret life. For the same reason we as a society believe education is not only a value but a right, regardless of gender, race, creed, sexual orientation, etc, we value knowledge because it decreases the potential for suppression. Being oppressed by others is antithetical to American culture, but suppressing oneself and others from various information is how certain beliefs are maintained, religious beliefs included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I don't judge others. I said "some" people choose not to believe so they can do as they please. I've known some. Others are just lost little sheep, needing to be guided back. That's *my* belief about why they don't believe. Most people don't deny the existence of a god just so they can have fun. There are plenty of gods to choose from who don't care what humans do. However, I don't know anyone who "chooses" not to believe. I can no more choose not to believe in gods than I can choose not to believe in Santa. I'm sure you and others will say it's not the same, but when it comes to my "choice" it is the same. As far as the lost sheep comment, I won't even go there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I'm offended by others questioning God's existence. I've kept it to myself, maybe you could learn some self control as well. I'm sorry you chose to be offended by someone else's beliefs or lack thereof. Though I do have an opinion about your belief, I'm not offended by it. I'm not offended that you think I probably am an atheist just so I can sleep around, nor am I offended that you think I'm a lost sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I don't think Judaism was every widely spread - was it ? You're right, it wasn't. The Jewish (and future Christian) god was a local tribal god. Christianity spread because of the conquering Romans. That's the simplistic version, but it's basically what happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I guess the question is can people really just choose to believe? Just decide to believe and do it? There is a theory, which seems to be borne out by those who do put significant effort into believing and just can't (Some even go so far as to become pastors), that it's genetic. You're either wired that way or you're not. I was one who definitely tried to believe. I grew up in the rural Deep South, and I didn't personally know anyone who didn't believe (or at least anyone who admitted it), yet I remember very well being 3 years old and simply not believing what I was being told. Because I was raised with the fear tactics of Christianity, it scared me horribly that I simply couldn't believe. I tried oh, so hard, but it just never happened. I read the Bible, attended Bible studies and Kingdom Hall (Jehovah's Witness), attended church (Southern Baptist), and tried to pray (never feeling a thing), but believing just didn't happen. In fact, the more I did these things, the more firm I became in my non-belief. (I've read the entire Bible at least twice.) As I mentioned on the VBS thread, I was even pressured into "getting saved" and getting baptized when I was 13. I tried so hard for it to be real. I was so scared of not believing. But it just never happened. I was so miserable. Once I finally gave up on trying to believe and just became myself, I was so much happier and more content. I didn't "choose" not to believe so that I could be wild and do all kinds of things that Christians consider to be "sinful." In fact, I attended a Southern Baptist college where I was one of the calmest people (and probably the only atheist until a guy from S. Africa came to our school on a tennis scholarship during my senior year). I wish I could get back those years of misery from trying to believe, but I can't. At least, however, I can enjoy the rest of my life without that pressure and misery. Also, my son can live without that misery. He knows that I will support him no matter what; he'll never be "forced" to try to believe (or not believe) one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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