Medical care in the US vs other countries

[Ohdanigirl]

You know, I think that we sometimes take for granted how great our country really is. I know, I know, there are plenty of problems, but we should stop every one in a while and remember the good things.

 

I am currently in Mexico. I am reminded of all the great things the US has to offer all the time.

 

Just recently, a young lady I know went into labor with her first child. She and her dh are by no means well off. They saved money to have their child in a private clinic. This means better service, better chances of survival for her child, and dad gets to be in the room while baby is born. Unfortunately, she had excessive bleeding after the birth of her child. She lost so much blood, that she went into a coma and her uterus was surgically removed. In the mean time, my niece was running around town trying to get blood for this young lady. Some places turned her away, because she wasn't going to be admitted in their clinic/hospital. They knew that this young lady was dying, but what mattered was their profits. My niece eventually had to wake-up a Dr at his home and beg him to open up the blood bank he was in charge of so she could buy the blood they needed. They had to pay 1,600 USD for the blood.

 

I was horrified when my niece told me about the many places that turned them down. They had the blood, she had the money to pay them, yet they said no. In order to help them get some of their money back, myself and other friends and family are going in tomorrow to donate blood to the blood bank.

 

I just wanted to share. I know we can all come up with our own horror stories, but I think we are still pretty lucky. Also, I hop that you all hug you dc extra hard today, and maybe donate some blood in the near future. You could save a life.

 

Danielle

[stripe]

So sorry to hear about this.

 

Unfortunately the US has much higher death rates for mothers and babies than the rates for other developed countries such as those in Europe.

 

Care for pregnant women and laboring mothers has a long way to go around the world.

 

(And by the way, it's worth remembering that not everyone on this board lives in the US or is American, and/or believes their country is great.)

[TracyR]

Absolutely. This happens on a grander scale here in the US.

We just recently had a hospital turn my 4yr old away because they didn't like how much they got paid by our insurance. Yes, a Children's hospital. I had to fight that with every fiber of my being because we needed the specialty of this hospital because we don't have it here where I live. We've had our insurance deny medications, and necessary medical equipment for my daughter.Some times I'm successful at fighting to get it and sometimes I'm not so succesful. So yes, we may not be having to run to doctors doors to open up blood banks ( which in our area we're pretty near close since people just don't donate much anymore) , but we have it on a much grander scale here.

 

You can read all about that with the article I wrote : Access Denied When a Hospital Drops your Insurance ( http://articles.complexchild.com/may2011/00297.html )

[Sophia]

 

(And by the way, it's worth remembering that not everyone on this board lives in the US or is American, and/or believes their country is great.)

 

Very true.

But for those of us who do live in the US, are American, and believe this country is great, thanks for the reminder, Danielle.

No doubt there are travesties aplenty here, but I'll still choose medical care here vs. anywhere else.

What a blessing your niece was to her friend.

[Ohdanigirl]

So sorry to hear about this.

 

Unfortunately the US has much higher death rates for mothers and babies than the rates for other developed countries such as those in Europe.

 

Care for pregnant women and laboring mothers has a long way to go around the world.

 

(And by the way, it's worth remembering that not everyone on this board lives in the US or is American, and/or believes their country is great.)

 

 

Yes, I understand all of this.

 

There has been a lot of talk about the state of medical care in the US, so I thought I would throw it out there. Again, I am not saying that things are perfect. The U.S. has plenty of problems in this area. I think we need to see both the good and bad though. Sometime we get stuck on the bad and forget about what is good. I agree though, there is a long way to go. Especially when it comes to laboring woman. This is why I went to mid wives, a choice that is not often available in some places.

 

Danielle

[lailasmum]

That's shocking that it was so hard to get blood for her and people were so reluctant to help.

 

I think our NHS has some pros and cons. NHS dental provision is dreadful and the rest of it is hugely variable in quality.

 

This story about elderly patients being prescribed water has been in the news over the last couple of days here. Basically doctors are having to prescribe drinking water to make sure their patients aren't getting dehydrated because nursing staff aren't remembering to provide the normal jugs of drinking water beside beds or the water and food provided is being left out of reach of patients and no one answers calls to help. There have also been a lot of stories recently about patients getting malnutrition while in hospital. Really basic stuff is going wrong. In the UK if you weren't providing water and food for your pet you would be prosecuted by the RSPCA for cruelty, many patients in hospitals aren't even getting the basic level of care expected of pet owners for animals yet its still just as cruel.

 

My only experience on staying in hospital was when I had my son, that was full of rude doctors and nurses and being forgotten about for hours and hours when I was supposedly in need of help, the rooms were in a dreadful condition, the room I gave birth in had a broken bed, broken lighting and many other problems. It was obviously very understaffed and poorly maintained.

Edited May 29, 2011 by lailasmum

[stripe]

Yes, I understand all of this.

 

There has been a lot of talk about the state of medical care in the US, so I thought I would throw it out there. Again, I am not saying that things are perfect. The U.S. has plenty of problems in this area. I think we need to see both the good and bad though.

 

There are certainly thing being taken for granted in the US like running, safe water and reliable electricity. I think, though, that there IS great health care in the US, but it's not the case that everyone can access it.

[Sputterduck]

You know, I think that we sometimes take for granted how great our country really is. I know, I know, there are plenty of problems, but we should stop every one in a while and remember the good things.

 

I am currently in Mexico. I am reminded of all the great things the US has to offer all the time.

 

Just recently, a young lady I know went into labor with her first child. She and her dh are by no means well off. They saved money to have their child in a private clinic. This means better service, better chances of survival for her child, and dad gets to be in the room while baby is born. Unfortunately, she had excessive bleeding after the birth of her child. She lost so much blood, that she went into a coma and her uterus was surgically removed. In the mean time, my niece was running around town trying to get blood for this young lady. Some places turned her away, because she wasn't going to be admitted in their clinic/hospital. They knew that this young lady was dying, but what mattered was their profits. My niece eventually had to wake-up a Dr at his home and beg him to open up the blood bank he was in charge of so she could buy the blood they needed. They had to pay 1,600 USD for the blood.

 

I was horrified when my niece told me about the many places that turned them down. They had the blood, she had the money to pay them, yet they said no. In order to help them get some of their money back, myself and other friends and family are going in tomorrow to donate blood to the blood bank.

 

I just wanted to share. I know we can all come up with our own horror stories, but I think we are still pretty lucky. Also, I hop that you all hug you dc extra hard today, and maybe donate some blood in the near future. You could save a life.

 

Danielle

 

I know.

 

I thought it was awesome here that you can go to a public hospital and get care for free, and that you can see private doctors in my area for only 30 pesos. Unfortunately, higher end care is scary. We get people stopping in constantly for help getting money to pay for life saving medical care. Right now we are trying to get help for a 2 month old baby who needs heart surgery. We've contacted people in the US and also one of us got her mother a tv spot to hopefully gather people to help her.

 

I know that US health care often bankrupts people, but at least there the baby would get the surgery at all.

 

Also we have a physical therapist that comes down and sees children and arranges to bring them to Shriner's. She says that she's never seen a surgery here for a child with malformations that ended well. Ever. Even at the children's hospital in TJ. And she's been doing this for years and years. So, she always refers them to Shriner's where the surgery won't end up making kids worse and freezing their joints, for example, and disabling them for life.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Sputterduck

[Sputterduck]

What a blessing your niece was to her friend.

 

:iagree:

[Murphy101]

There are certainly thing being taken for granted in the US like running, safe water and reliable electricity. I think, though, that there IS great health care in the US, but it's not the case that everyone can access it.

 

This is the main issue in the US.

It is not a lack of great care, it is a lack of ACCESS to it.

If you can't afford it or don't happen to live near it?

Too bad for you.

[Aelwydd]

This is the main issue in the US.

It is not a lack of great care, it is a lack of ACCESS to it.

If you can't afford it or don't happen to live near it?

Too bad for you.

 

 

Martha, you and stripe are correct. The U.S. has some of the most advanced medical science and technology in the world. However, only a shrinking minority are actually able to access it. It's not even about insured vs. uninsured; there is the larger problem of millions of Americans being underinsured. Private insurance companies ration surgeries, procedures, medicine, medical equipment, and access to health care providers and hospitals.

 

According to a 2009 Harvard study, some 45,000 Americans die annually due to lack of insurance coverage. This number spans all age groups, not just adults.

 

Indicators such as neonatal mortality, infant mortality, maternal mortality, average life span, and so forth, have shown the United States lagging further and further behind other western, post-industrialized, wealthy countries for decades. Though the US spends more per person on health care than any other country in the world, the results do not show a return equitable to the investment in any of the above categories. This is due to the huge disparities in quality and access to health care in our country.

[Jennifer3141]

This is the main issue in the US.

It is not a lack of great care, it is a lack of ACCESS to it.

If you can't afford it or don't happen to live near it?

Too bad for you.

 

:iagree:

 

The "almost" seniors DH sees in his practice... some of them, it's utterly terrifying the shape they are in because they don't have health care.

 

And the moms who need to travel great distances in rural areas to have a safe birth. :(

 

And the kids who get substandard care because they are Medicaid.

 

For awhile there, Michigan cut ALL dental care from its Medicaid program. Know why they brought it back? Too many stupid deaths from stupid things like gum infections leading to blood poisoning and it cost WAY more to take care of things when they got that bad instead of just providing good, basic care.

[VeteranMom]

I believe we can attribute many of the health complications to the obesity problem in this country. I worked in healthcare for 20 years and know that a lack of personal responsibility is closely tied to many health issues. Patients scream about poor care or no access, but won't take a walk or put the doughnut down. Based on what I've seen, our problem isn't the healthcare. Our problem is the culture.

[Beetkvass]

I believe we can attribute many of the health complications to the obesity problem in this country. I worked in healthcare for 20 years and know that a lack of personal responsibility is closely tied to many health issues. Patients scream about poor care or no access, but won't take a walk or put the doughnut down. Based on what I've seen, our problem isn't the healthcare. Our problem is the culture.

 

 

I don't believe that's entirely true. No one likes to talk about all the meds prescribed that CAUSE obesity. And there are a heck of a lot of them. No, people are just always fat because they won't "put a donut down". Junky food and high carb foods are the cheapest foods.

[Ohdanigirl]

I know.

 

. Right now we are trying to get help for a 2 month old baby who needs heart surgery. We've contacted people in the US and also one of us got her mother a tv spot to hopefully gather people to help her.

 

I know that US health care often bankrupts people, but at least there the baby would get the surgery at all.

 

 

Sputterduck, has an account been set up for people to deposit donations for this baby? If so, could you PM me. Also, there is a morning rado/tv show that this mom should call as well. I can't remember the name of it, but they often make announcements and interviews for things like this. I will see if I can get the name.

 

Danielle

[KristinaBreece]

I believe we can attribute many of the health complications to the obesity problem in this country. I worked in healthcare for 20 years and know that a lack of personal responsibility is closely tied to many health issues. Patients scream about poor care or no access, but won't take a walk or put the doughnut down. Based on what I've seen, our problem isn't the healthcare. Our problem is the culture.

 

Correlation doesn't always equal causation.

 

Are the people who can't afford healthcare likely to be the same people who are living on Spam & Wonder Bread because they're cheaper than lean meats & fresh vegetables? Absolutely.

 

Are they in ill health because they're overweight from the only diets they can afford, or because they can't afford healthcare?

 

I would agree that healthcare is not the main problem. The main problem is the growing gap between the wealthy & those who have to choose between seeing a doctor & feeding their children.

[snickelfritz]

I don't know. I saw a tv show a few years ago that followed a pregnant woman through birth in various countries. Japan looked awesome. U.S. was a standard hospital birth. The women in an African country didn't have this, surrounded by village women, awesome natural experience. No matter what happens in the U.S., I would take it over what this woman went through. I can't remember if she died, but it was horrific.

 

And children dying from diarrhea, etc... That's far removed from not getting routine dental care. Not saying dental care isn't important, but it's a different level of importance.

 

On the other hand, I remember a news program on lifestyles in backwoods Appalachia, and it's very far removed from my life. Severe nutritional deficiencies, etc....

Edited May 28, 2011 by snickelfritz

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

That's shocking that it was so hard to get blood for her and people were so reluctant to help.

 

I think our NHS has some pros and cons. NHS dental provision is dreadful and the rest of it is hugely variable in quality.

 

This story about elderly patients being prescribed water has been in the news over the last couple of days here. Basically doctors are having to prescribe drinking water to make sure their patients aren't getting dehydated because nursing staff aren't remembering to provide it. There have also been a lot of stories recently about patients getting malnutrition while in hospital. Basic stuff is going really wrong.

 

This is not really shocking since as a nurse in the US I have seen fluids/water ordered for patients many, many times. Also, in every medical facility I worked at here in the US for over 2 decades, there was not enough nursing staff.

 

IMHO, I think the Mexican story is sad. It is another reason I believe in universal healthcare such as medicare for all. Anyone who thinks we have it great here in the US medically is kidding themselves IMHO. Hopefully no one ever has to try and navigate our healthcare system without health insurance and a serious illness:(. Even with health insurance, many private insurers love to deny coverage or payment:(

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Medical care in the US is great if you have good insurance. If you don't, it's not great at all.

 

:iagree: My mom was told if she could not pay her bill, then no radiation or chemo for cancer even when she had insurance:(.

 

Emergency rooms do not offer chemo or radiation and a multitude of other life saving medical care.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I believe we can attribute many of the health complications to the obesity problem in this country. I worked in healthcare for 20 years and know that a lack of personal responsibility is closely tied to many health issues. Patients scream about poor care or no access, but won't take a walk or put the doughnut down. Based on what I've seen, our problem isn't the healthcare. Our problem is the culture.

 

IMHO this is offensive. I took care of many, many people in critical care who were one day healthy and then the next day critical:(.

 

Also, obesity is a disease. About 96% of obese people are unsuccessful in their attempts to lose weight:( I don't think all of these people are lazy, good for nothings. Unfortunately, I believe that hormones such as insulin wreck havoc on the body and the appetite making it almost impossible to lose weight:(.

[funschooler5]

There are certainly thing being taken for granted in the US like running, safe water and reliable electricity. I think, though, that there IS great health care in the US, but it's not the case that everyone can access it.

 

This is the main issue in the US.

It is not a lack of great care, it is a lack of ACCESS to it.

If you can't afford it or don't happen to live near it?

Too bad for you.

 

Medical care in the US is great if you have good insurance. If you don't, it's not great at all.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

No kidding!! We've been without health insurance for a few years now (in the U.S.), and DH saw first-hand the difference between U.S. and another country (New Zealand) when he was hospitalized during a trip there last year. It was staggering. His NZ experience was completely different than what we're used to at home. We paid out of pocket there, too, but the prices were so much lower, and the attitudes of the hospital staff were just....well, caring, for lack of a better word. They were actually worried about him! They apologized for him having to wait an hour (an hour?? It's usually a week in the U.S.) for his blood tests, and brought him tea while he waited! This is completely different than the attitudes we've seen at home. It's more like an assembly line of being poked and prodded....after they've figured out how you are going to pay and what you can afford.

 

DH had to go back to the doctor a few weeks ago (in the U.S.) for some tests. His doctor was picking and choosing which tests to do, depending on the price! First of all, I don't think the doctor should even know whether or not we have insurance. Just focus on making him better! Let us figure out how we're going to pay for everything, with the accounts department.

 

DH lived with symptoms for months because he was afraid of the price of going to the doctor. And believe me, if having insurance made a difference, we'd get it. We had a private insurance plan a few years back that kept raising their prices on us every month, and then with the deductible and co-pays, we just decided it would be cheaper if we went without and paid monthly payments to the doctor out of pocket.

 

It's just a ridiculous situation. Something needs to change.

[Aelwydd]

I believe we can attribute many of the health complications to the obesity problem in this country. I worked in healthcare for 20 years and know that a lack of personal responsibility is closely tied to many health issues. Patients scream about poor care or no access, but won't take a walk or put the doughnut down. Based on what I've seen, our problem isn't the healthcare. Our problem is the culture.

 

Yes, and our culture would prefer to see our government give huge tax subsidies to the corn industry, for example, than a universal health plan that everyone can access to obtain preventative care. Corn is, of course, the main ingredient in high fructose corn syrup, and since post WWII when it became so incredibly cheap to produce and sell (thank you, Uncle Sam), it has been added to practically everything. So, now we have sugar in everything from whole wheat bread to Children's Tylenol. We have it in cheap sodas and in pretty much all processed food (which is again, what most Americans find more affordable than foods that are unprocessed, fresh, and also, unsubsidized by the government the way corn syrup is).

 

I suppose we are also personally responsible for all the artificial hormones that have been added to milk, eggs, and other food sources, since these things have been OK'd by the government. (Even though most of the US population was unaware of the potential health effects up until maybe 10 years ago.)

 

So yes, it is a problem of culture. Because we value big business and unlimited profit more than we value a healthy community.

 

And now, we have a problem of access to health care. Unless you believe that it's only the babies of fat women who are dying (it's not), or fat babies themselves, who are responsible for the poor showing the US makes in infant mortality and neonatality?

 

Furthermore, there is a huge rise of such diseases as asthma among children. These have lifelong implications. You may argue that this is due to children being fatter, but then you'd have to explain my son, who is a lean, mean, hockey player, and who has also been hospitalized no fewer than 4 times in his life. I don't have asthma, and neither does his dad. We have practically no family history of it. So, the genetic component is removed.

 

Which leaves the environment to explain my son's vicious asthma attacks beginning at 10 months of age. Our environment included a chemical company that had been cited by the EPA for polluting the land, water, and air with highly toxic materials and carcinogens. It's no wonder that that town had a childhood cancer rate 200% that of the national rate, and an asthma rate among children that is nearly half again of that of the rest of the country.

 

Now, here in Texas, we cope with having some of the worst air in the nation, thanks to ancient coal burning plants, new gas drills emitting benzene, and a host of other industrial sources.

 

If the segment of our society that is driving a large part of government is successful, the EPA will be defunded, and more companies and businesses will be dumping even more toxins into our air, water, and land.

 

I suppose we'd better hope those families being affected by such pollution don't happen to be fat, if we're thinking it's obesity that's the problem and nothing else. After all, their health problems are purely their own responsibility. Nobody else's.

 

 

P.S. I can offer up statistics and studies for all of this if you wish. My B.S. happens to be in Health Studies, concentrating in Community Health. So, I have a LOT of information on this subject.

[Aelwydd]

IMHO this is offensive. I took care of many, many people in critical care who were one day healthy and then the next day critical:(.

 

Also, obesity is a disease. About 96% of obese people are unsuccessful in their attempts to lose weight:( I don't think all of these people are lazy, good for nothings. Unfortunately, I believe that hormones such as insulin wreck havoc on the body and the appetite making it almost impossible to lose weight:(.

 

Thank you, Pris. You are correct that obesity is a disease, most often linked to a Metabolic Disorder.

[Beetkvass]

<<So yes, it is a problem of culture. Because we value big business and unlimited profit more than we value a healthy community.>>

 

Awesome post. I resent living in a world with filthy polluted air, water, and food but it's all MY fault if it makes me or my kids sick.

[Sputterduck]

Sputterduck, has an account been set up for people to deposit donations for this baby? If so, could you PM me. Also, there is a morning rado/tv show that this mom should call as well. I can't remember the name of it, but they often make announcements and interviews for things like this. I will see if I can get the name.

 

Danielle

 

The name of that radio/tv show would be great.

 

The baby is in Tijuana. I would be most comfortable giving it to the hospital directly. Things happen. (we had a mom who's money to get her little one to Shriner's was stolen by her husband) I just called the lady who handles these things to see how to do this.

 

The baby is in General Hospital of Tijuana. I am pming you the name of the baby, birth date, mom's name and dr.'s name. The lady I called said that since we haven't personally physically seen the baby, make sure you be careful before you give any money. She also said if you need someone to help you meet baby and mama, we can be there.

[Ohdanigirl]

The name of that radio/tv show would be great.

 

The baby is in Tijuana. I would be most comfortable giving it to the hospital directly. Things happen. (we had a mom who's money to get her little one to Shriner's was stolen by her husband) I just called the lady who handles these things to see how to do this.

 

The baby is in General Hospital of Tijuana. I am pming you the name of the baby, birth date, mom's name and dr.'s name. The lady I called said that since we haven't personally physically seen the baby, make sure you be careful before you give any money. She also said if you need someone to help you meet baby and mama, we can be there.

 

Yes, I saw the PM. So, can anyone go and donate money towards her treatment and surgery? I sent you a PM, but I will see if there is something I can do here. Would you mind if I shared her story with some friends?

 

I saw your second PM, thanks. I will wait for your update.

 

Danielle

Edited May 28, 2011 by USDGAL

[SailorMom]

So sorry to hear about this.

 

Unfortunately the US has much higher death rates for mothers and babies than the rates for other developed countries such as those in Europe.

 

 

 

There are many reasons for this. First, some European countries do not report a baby as having died if the baby lived less than "x" number of days - so, a newborn who dies many times does not get counted.

Also, there is a LOT of corruption in developing nations. They change thier statistics at will for propoganda purposes and to make themselves look better in the international community.

Lastly, the US is the most aggressive country as far as trying to save pre-mature infants and multiples. If you consider the number of 26 week premies that we try to save here, and that many don't make it - those are counted in our statistics - whereas in other countries they are counted as miscarriages (until quite late in the pregnancy).

Statistics can be twisted to mean anything.

We are not perfect, not by any means, however there is a reason so many people come here for their medical care from other countries.

[WishboneDawn]

There are many reasons for this. First, some European countries do not report a baby as having died if the baby lived less than "x" number of days - so, a newborn who dies many times does not get counted.

Also, there is a LOT of corruption in developing nations. They change thier statistics at will for propoganda purposes and to make themselves look better in the international community.

Lastly, the US is the most aggressive country as far as trying to save pre-mature infants and multiples. If you consider the number of 26 week premies that we try to save here, and that many don't make it - those are counted in our statistics - whereas in other countries they are counted as miscarriages (until quite late in the pregnancy).

Statistics can be twisted to mean anything.

We are not perfect, not by any means, however there is a reason so many people come here for their medical care from other countries.

 

Developing countries aren't the issue. The US places lower then other developed nations.

 

I would like to see links on the other assertions although I'm not confident it would explain the whole story with why the US is so high in infant mortality rates compared to other nations.

[Aelwydd]

There are many reasons for this. First, some European countries do not report a baby as having died if the baby lived less than "x" number of days - so, a newborn who dies many times does not get counted.[/Quote]

 

This is not true. Some nations do adopt a different definition of what constitutes infant mortality. But, this is why we also use neonatal mortality, because this is a specific measure of the number of babies per 1000 who die within the first 30 days after birth. Infant mortality is the measure of death within the first year. All Western European countries keep these records, and again, when you measure the US, we consistently rank around #26.

 

Lastly, the US is the most aggressive country as far as trying to save pre-mature infants and multiples. If you consider the number of 26 week premies that we try to save here, and that many don't make it - those are counted in our statistics - whereas in other countries they are counted as miscarriages (until quite late in the pregnancy).[/Quote] This is not true. I have heard this argument, and researched the data, and as far as I have read, other nations such as Canada and the U.K., in fact do have and use neonatal care units with equivalent technology (or better). Also, most U.S. hospitals are only aggressive insomuch as the baby's insurance will approve treatment, or the parents are able to afford the tens of thousands of dollars necessary to pay for it.

 

Furthermore, many preemies are born with long-term disabilities and health conditions that cost so much money, that lifetime maximums and pre-existing conditions have meant many of these conditions were not treated as they should have been. Which is why so many parents have had to go the route of suing doctors and hospitals, in order to assure that their children's future medical care would be paid for.

 

 

Statistics can be twisted to mean anything.

We are not perfect, not by any means, however there is a reason so many people come here for their medical care from other countries.

Statistics give the most useful information for measuring how we are doing. You may simply dismiss them, but that doesn't change the fact that statistics bear out the evidence in many ways, from the fact that they show travel by airplane to be much, much safer than car travel, to how much more crime some cities show versus other areas of the country.

 

Statistics allows for ways to adjust to different definitions, to obtain a more reliable result. And furthermore, the reason why we repeat studies over and over again, tweaking this and that, is to make sure that bias and the range of error are minimalized as much as possible.

 

And studies on U.S. health indicators have repeatedly shown, no matter what group has been conducting them, whether government or private, that we are lagging behind other Western nations.

 

P.S. You should perhaps read up on the recent trend of many Americans leaving the U.S. to go to countries like India, in order to afford operations and procedures that they cannot access here. The U.S. is hardly the only place where people fly to to get health care.

[SailorMom]

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=6219&type=0

 

Here's one - I don't have time right now to look for more, but I know there are a lot.

I do think it really depends on what studies you read, how they gather their data, and what standards of measurement are used.

[cathmom]

 

 

P.S. You should perhaps read up on the recent trend of many Americans leaving the U.S. to go to countries like India, in order to afford operations and procedures that they cannot access here. The U.S. is hardly the only place where people fly to to get health care.

 

I know a family who went to Mexico for dental care. It was cheaper to fly to San Diego from the East Coast and cross over into Mexico to go to a dental clinic than to get dental care here in the US.

[Aelwydd]

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=6219&type=0

 

Here's one - I don't have time right now to look for more, but I know there are a lot.

I do think it really depends on what studies you read, how they gather their data, and what standards of measurement are used.

 

Yes, but that link goes on to explain that these are still suppositions, using language like "probably," and it also is talking about comparisons with underdeveloped nations. We are not talking about the U.S. versus Haiti, for example. We are talking about the U.S. versus, say, Sweden. Or Norway. Or other wealthy, technologically developed societies.

 

Here is a study that looks at Norway's neonatal mortality rate, versus the U.S. The authors used the same criteria for both, and came to the conclusion that the U.S. sample had a slightly larger number of pre-term babies, which could explain its higher neonatality rate.

 

What it does NOT explain, is why even if you generously give the U.S. that small increase in pre-term numbers, it merely matches Norway, when it outspends Norway probably 10 times to 1, and Norway has a much higher proportion of home births than the U.S.

 

Given that the U.S. spends so much more than Norway, it should really have something to show for that. Also, a huge factor that increases the risk of pre-term delivery is lack of prenatal care. And since the U.S. doesn't insure all pregnant women have prenatal care, the case can definitely be made (and has by several health care organizations) that lack of universal health care is one of the reasons for a higher rates of pre-term births, which in turn contributes to increases in infant mortality and neonatal mortality.

 

To get a more detailed analysis of the above study (beyond just the abstact), you can download the information from the Journal of the American Medical Association's website here: www.jama.ama-assn.org/content/273/9/709.full.pdf

Edited May 29, 2011 by Aelwydd

[Sputterduck]

I know a family who went to Mexico for dental care. It was cheaper to fly to San Diego from the East Coast and cross over into Mexico to go to a dental clinic than to get dental care here in the US.

 

But Be Careful with that! The American community in the surrounding areas where I am has a terrible time finding a decent dentist. It's a very common discussion point amongst them.

 

It is very cheap here though!

 

My pastor here went to the dentist and they pulled a tooth out and didn't even bother to get any medical information on him first. He's on coumadin and it bled for a week. His wife was so mad and I was about to insist he go to the hospital to have it dealt with before it stopped bleeding finally. He went through a sermon changing the tissues every couple minutes. That was 4 or 5 days into the bleeding. That much adds up and it can be very serious.

[Peela]

Here in Australia public hospitals are free and the care is excellent. They have the latest high tech equipment- often more than the private hospitals- and the doctors and nurses work long shifts but are amazing. Sometimes there is overcrowding, and mistakes happen in hospitals everywhere. But I feel confident in hospitals here.

 

It is all relative. I would *expect* health care to be better in the U.S. than in Mexico (and its a wonderful thing to acknowledge and appreciate that), but am always really surprised at many American's unwillingness to admit, even though they haven't directly experienced it, that health care in other parts of the world surpasses theirs.

[cathmom]

But Be Careful with that! The American community in the surrounding areas where I am has a terrible time finding a decent dentist. It's a very common discussion point amongst them.

 

It is very cheap here though!

 

My pastor here went to the dentist and they pulled a tooth out and didn't even bother to get any medical information on him first. He's on coumadin and it bled for a week. His wife was so mad and I was about to insist he go to the hospital to have it dealt with before it stopped bleeding finally. He went through a sermon changing the tissues every couple minutes. That was 4 or 5 days into the bleeding. That much adds up and it can be very serious.

 

LOL, well, I wouldn't do it, but I think of that when people talk about others coming to the US for health care.

[Sputterduck]

Here in Australia public hospitals are free and the care is excellent. They have the latest high tech equipment- often more than the private hospitals- and the doctors and nurses work long shifts but are amazing. Sometimes there is overcrowding, and mistakes happen in hospitals everywhere. But I feel confident in hospitals here.

 

It is all relative. I would *expect* health care to be better in the U.S. than in Mexico (and its a wonderful thing to acknowledge and appreciate that), but am always really surprised at many American's unwillingness to admit, even though they haven't directly experienced it, that health care in other parts of the world surpasses theirs.

 

It *is* strange. I've mentioned to a few people the lower death rates surrounding births in Europe and it's like a personal affront almost that medical care in America isn't the top in the world in some areas. I think Americans are, well, very America centric. I bet most countries are like that in some ways.

[SailorMom]

I didn't take it as a personal affront - I just wanted to offer that there is other/more/variable information out there.

 

I have to say - we have experienced nothing but exemplary care here, so that may bias me - but after my son's heart condition was cured, but other son's neurological condition diagnosed, my knee fixed, my sinuses fixed, and trauma surgeons bringing one of our boy scouts back from the brink of death last weekend.... I guess I have never experienced an issue.

 

Also, my SiL in CA has mental health issues - she is bipolar, and struggled for a long time before she got help. She is on Medi-Cal, is getting top-notch therapy, job placement assistance, medications, etc., etc.... No one in my extended family has any complaints about the quality of the care she is recieveing there.

 

As I said - we're certianly not perfect, and I am one to always believe there is room for improvement. But I do think there is a broader picture out there, and especially broader than what is making the news.

[Aelwydd]

I didn't take it as a personal affront - I just wanted to offer that there is other/more/variable information out there.

 

I have to say - we have experienced nothing but exemplary care here, so that may bias me - but after my son's heart condition was cured, but other son's neurological condition diagnosed, my knee fixed, my sinuses fixed, and trauma surgeons bringing one of our boy scouts back from the brink of death last weekend.... I guess I have never experienced an issue.

 

Also, my SiL in CA has mental health issues - she is bipolar, and struggled for a long time before she got help. She is on Medi-Cal, is getting top-notch therapy, job placement assistance, medications, etc., etc.... No one in my extended family has any complaints about the quality of the care she is recieveing there.

 

As I said - we're certianly not perfect, and I am one to always believe there is room for improvement. But I do think there is a broader picture out there, and especially broader than what is making the news.

 

SailorMom, I agree that there the United States definitely boasts some of the top hospitals and personnel in the world. I'm not disputing that at all. My beef is that the overall picture of health of US citizens is not where it should be, given the fact that we a, spend more on health care than any other country, and b, have such splendid facilities here.

 

The problem is multifaceted, and it includes the limited access to care (referring to both insured, who are denied coverage on certain things, and those who are uninsured entirely), and also the lifestyle of Americans, which includes way too much (government subsidized) processed foods.

 

I guess an example of this is my asthmatic son. He has a fantastic allergist / respiratory specialist, but we are having to leave her care for a new doctor that we are not as confident in. Our son's new insurance plan won't cover his specialist either in- or out-of-network, and we can't afford to pay hundreds of dollars each visit. So, we are having to do with what we feel is inferior care -- not because it doesn't exist here, but because it is inaccessible to us.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Aelwydd

[SailorMom]

"The problem is multifaceted, and it includes the limited access to care (referring to both insured, who are denied coverage on certain things, and those who are uninsured entirely), and also the lifestyle of Americans, which includes way too much (government subsidized) processed foods.

 

I guess an example of this is my asthmatic son. He has a fantastic allergist / respiratory specialist, but we are having to leave her care for a new doctor that is not a specialist. However, our son's new insurance plan won't cover his specialist either in- or out-of-network, and we can't afford to pay hundreds of dollars each visit. So, we are having to do with what we feel is inferior care -- not because it doesn't exist here, but because it is inaccessible to us.

__________________"

 

Oh - absolutely - I agree there are a lot of places we can make changes. The only part of the new healthcare bill I was for was the no "pre-existing condition" clause.... I also think we need heavy tort reform - we spend so much because doctors are scared if they don't do every test in the book they are going to get sued. And of course, this increases their malpractice insurance rates as well - which also ramps up the cost of care.

[WishboneDawn]

I guess an example of this is my asthmatic son. He has a fantastic allergist / respiratory specialist, but we are having to leave her care for a new doctor that we are not as confident in. Our son's new insurance plan won't cover his specialist either in- or out-of-network, and we can't afford to pay hundreds of dollars each visit. So, we are having to do with what we feel is inferior care -- not because it doesn't exist here, but because it is inaccessible to us.

 

This kind of thing floors me. Granted, I'm in Canada where there's only one insurer - the government - but to not have that kind of choice? I thought that was supposed to be the whole benefit to the US system, to give people choice.

Edited May 29, 2011 by WishboneDawn
horrid spelling

[Aelwydd]

 

Oh - absolutely - I agree there are a lot of places we can make changes. The only part of the new healthcare bill I was for was the no "pre-existing condition" clause.... I also think we need heavy tort reform - we spend so much because doctors are scared if they don't do every test in the book they are going to get sued. And of course, this increases their malpractice insurance rates as well - which also ramps up the cost of care.

 

Yes, I would agree that tort reform needs to happen. But I believe we need to achieve universal health care first. The biggest driver of lawsuits is that people are trying to ensure that their long term medical bills will be covered. It's not that people always want to automatically blame the doctor; but if they're facing x number of years paying hundreds of thousands of dollars, for long-term care of a child, for example, the best way to ensure that in the current system is to sue for reparations.

 

Furthermore, in those cases where a physician IS definitely negligent or liable, and cause harm that will potentially cost half a million in long term care, what's a family that's capped at $250K supposed to do? They need to have those damages covered somehow, and universal health care would go a long way in providing this.

 

Also, along with tort reform, is a need to seriously regulate malpractice companies. These companies not only charge outrageous amounts of money for malpractice coverage, but they dictate the terms of care in certain situations. Some of these companies will stipulate, for example, that a hospital cannot offer Vaginal Birth After C-sections; the birth center I had my ds at, had to discontinue care for VBAC moms because their malpractice insurance would have dropped them if they refused to comply.

[Beetkvass]

I didn't take it as a personal affront - I just wanted to offer that there is other/more/variable information out there.

 

I have to say - we have experienced nothing but exemplary care here, so that may bias me - but after my son's heart condition was cured, but other son's neurological condition diagnosed, my knee fixed, my sinuses fixed, and trauma surgeons bringing one of our boy scouts back from the brink of death last weekend.... I guess I have never experienced an issue.

 

Also, my SiL in CA has mental health issues - she is bipolar, and struggled for a long time before she got help. She is on Medi-Cal, is getting top-notch therapy, job placement assistance, medications, etc., etc.... No one in my extended family has any complaints about the quality of the care she is recieveing there.

 

As I said - we're certianly not perfect, and I am one to always believe there is room for improvement. But I do think there is a broader picture out there, and especially broader than what is making the news.

 

But you have insurance, right? California is one of a handful of states that offers assistance and health insurance to adults whose income level is above affording a cardboard box for a home. Where I live in GA your income level has to be so little that you honestly could not afford a place to live. My parents paid for major medical insurance for 20 years and basically never used it. They had to drop it when it was driven up to $1200 a month. They couldn't afford health insurance and keep a roof over their heads and food in their mouths.

 

My parents are older now but not old enough for Medicaid. The treatment they have gotten without insurance is horrendous. My father nearly sliced off his thumb with a circular saw. I don't how it happened since the man has been in construction for nearly 40 years. The hospital would basically do little more than stitch his mangled finger up. They called in a surgeon on staff who flat out refused to come in and treat him because my father was uninsured. My father could not afford to go back for follow up treatment since they weren't going to do anything for him anyway. The hospital also quoted him a price of $400 when he was there for the treatment he got. He got a bill for 3K. He called and tried talking to them over and over and they refused to go lower. They sent it to collections. Want to know how much the bill showed up for with collections? $400

 

What really makes me angry is that if someone has health insurance their insurance pays less than what is charged to someone with no insurance. My kids are on state insurance and my husband and I are using Samaritan Ministries. We looked into private insurance when my husband lost his job. Want to know what kind of pricing we were offered? At least $800 a month before they jacked it up based on any previous health problems. And they would have because we are not in perfect health. And a 10K yearly deductible. So 20K or more for health insurance that wouldn't even cover all that much. $20,000!!! And then that was before the health care bill was passed and health insurance companies started upping the prices on everything.

 

Not everyone is lucky enough to get reasonable health insurance through their job.

[Beetkvass]

This kind of thing floors me. Granted, I'm in Canada where there's only one insurer - the government - but to not have that kind of choice? I thought that was supposed to be the whole benefit to the US system, to give people choice.

 

You have all the choice in the world so long as you have enough money to pay for it!

[KristinaBreece]

You have all the choice in the world so long as you have enough money to pay for it!

 

Yep.

:thumbdown:

[Aelwydd]

This kind of thing floors me. Granted, I'm in Canada where there's only one insurer - the government - but to not have that kind of choice? I thought that was supposed to be the whole benefit to the US system, to give people choice.

 

Sure, we have a choice. With my husband's insurance plan, we have the choice to pay $540 a month, with a $2000 individual / $4000 family deductible that pretty much everything is subject to. All blood work, all radiology, all tests, hospital admissions, so forth. Under our pharmacy plan, our son's meds cost around $80 a month. Last year, they started rejecting claims from the allergist's office without explanation, even though said doctor is supposed to be in-network. Turns out, they're doing the same to other people. This is the way they tell us that they are no longer covering a doctor: we get a bill from the physician saying "denial of coverage" around $180. For each check-up.

 

Or, we can go without, and hope none of us gets sick, even while shelling out over $300 a month for our son's asthma meds. See, there are no preventative asthmatic medications in the U.S. market that are generic; NONE. Even the rescue inhaler, albuterol, went from being around $5 a month, to around $50, because the dispenser is new and patented.

 

FYI, dh works for a company contracted by the county. His insurance is supposedly pretty decent for this area. But, in Texas, 1 out of every 4 residents is uninsured.

 

Maybe you understand why we are very interested in moving to Canada? It's not just the hockey we are keen on. :001_smile:

[KristinaBreece]

Maybe you understand why we are very interested in moving to Canada? It's not just the hockey we are keen on.

 

DH wants to move to Australia. He's been on this for years, but with healthcare getting so ridiculous... I'm starting to take him seriously.

 

 

ETA: He was reading this over my shoulder & he goes, "Who is THAT?"

My reaction: "Who is WHO? The Hive?"

DH: "NO! Who's this DH?"

Me: "Seriously?" :001_huh::svengo::smilielol5::001_rolleyes::chillpill:

Edited May 29, 2011 by KristinaBreece
lol

[WishboneDawn]

Maybe you understand why we are very interested in moving to Canada? It's not just the hockey we are keen on. :001_smile:

 

Wow. Even with our higher taxes you'd be saving a ton of money on healthcare. Hope you guys join us. :D

[Impish]

Wow. Even with our higher taxes you'd be saving a ton of money on healthcare. Hope you guys join us. :D

I ran the #s with a friend in the States, and she was shocked at how much they'd save if they only pd the same amt of taxes we do. She had the impression that our taxation was so high they'd barely survive...she pays far more for just insurance than we pay for everything.

[justamouse]

We're up to $12,000 a year, which we hardly use and we're seriously considering canceling it. I can't go anywhere I want, I have to call everywhere to make sure the insurance will be accepted and when I DO have something, I'm getting bills left and right.

 

I wish we had run through universal.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

We're up to $12,000 a year, which we hardly use and we're seriously considering canceling it. I can't go anywhere I want, I have to call everywhere to make sure the insurance will be accepted and when I DO have something, I'm getting bills left and right.

 

I wish we had run through universal.

 

:iagree: Our country seriously needs universal healthcare IMO. Too many people, businesses, and local governments are hurting because of it:(

 

What gets me is when some say we cannot afford universal healthcare:001_huh: I say we are already paying tons and tons of money for healthcare. We just need to channel some of this to universal healthcare IMHO.

 

The other scary thing is the emergency rooms are starting to close because of all of the uninsured people. As a nurse, this is a scary prospect and hurts all of us:( Imagine having an emergency and no emergency rooms nearby.

 

Lastly, for those who only want to be responsible for themselves, I would posit that your healthcare dollars are already paying for the uninsured to begin with.

 

I say Medicare for all:D Oh, and definitely no medicare vouchers IMO.

 

My 2 cents:)