What do you do when your child does poorly on a standardized test?

[abbeyej]

But I do think everyone who takes the homeschool version of the CAT is confusing it with the current STAR test that replaced the CAT?

 

How so? Home schoolers are using versions of the CAT from the 1970s and 1980s -- often abbreviated versions.

[Penelope]

.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Penelope

[CalicoKat]

I would be more concerned if she wasn't doing well on her school work. If she's doing well on her school work but not doing well on her testing, you have to remember that some kids just are NOT good at taking tests! I've heard that since I started to homeschool 13 years ago.

 

If she were doing well on her school work, I would either do a year end portfolio evaluation, or do the CAT since she seemed to do better on that. I don't know what the ITBS is anyway.

 

The first year dd11 took the test is when I realized how bad her spelling was. We've done AAS in the past, may add it in again, but she LOVES workbook type books and has done well with the Apples and Pears spelling. Is AAS working well for your dd? Do you think you should supplement it? The one thing I hated about AAS was that there was NOT enough spelling drills/words to write. I did like the program, though.

 

One last thing is that you have to realize that there is one year where the kids will be behind in math using MUS, which we use and LOVE. I've tried many other math programs and WILL stick with MUS for dd's. I will supplement in the higher grades. I believe it's 4th grade where the kids test lower but maybe someone else can confirm this. It's only for one year, and it's because of the layout of their program. I wouldn't worry about that At All.

:iagree: We ran into this this year.

[tex-mex]

How so? Home schoolers are using versions of the CAT from the 1970s and 1980s -- often abbreviated versions.

Forgive me... I just had a brain fart. Aiiiyyeeee. :D

 

I think what I am trying to say (to no one in particular) is how are the older versions of the CAT differ from the STAR or ITBS. They are the same. You and I agree on that one. (Brain fart time on that one...)

 

But you mentioned the CAT for homeschoolers were not the same, right? What sections of the CAT are abbrieviated, I meant to ask?

[LittleIzumi]

I kind of want to know why your dh is still so opposed to homeschooling. I mean, if you've been homeschooling from the beginning, and so far you've had your curricula evaluated & she had the CAT & both came back on grade level, why is he still wanting more & more proof that she's not behind? Are there some issues that he's sensing (like the slightly lower level in certain areas) or is there another side that needs to be addressed with him?

[ocelotmom]

I've had kids not at grade level and the test helps them get help. I've also had kids bored to death with grade level curriculum and take the standardized test to show they are in the 90% percentile -- by then, the principal finally believes me and the student skips a grade or two.

Not to thread hijack, but...

 

You're the second person who has said something like this, and it's making me question my own childhood experiences. I didn't believe I scored below 95th percentile on any section of any standardized test I took in elementary or middle school. A 97% upset me, because most of the time I got 99%. I was held back in 1st for non-academic reasons, and the idea of jumping me back to my original grade was, as far as I know, never discussed.

 

Are they really grade jumping kids who are consistently in the 90th percentile?

[EKS]

Are they really grade jumping kids who are consistently in the 90th percentile?

 

Not in our district. Not only is there no gifted program, it is extremely difficult to get a grade skip, even with IQ and achievement scores at the 99th+ percentile. And why would they want to skip kids who are sure to do well on the state testing up to a grade where they may not do as well?

[Lolly]

Few things popped out to me.

 

1st. Is she used to taking tests? If you are going to use testing, it really helps if she has tests on a regular basis. At least go through a testing book that will let her become familiar with the format. While you aren't supposed to "practice" for testing, most of the kids she is going to be compared to have been taking these tests every single year. They are familiar with the format and less likely to panic.

 

2nd. You are using MUS. It is an excellent math program. It is NOT one that will give good results on standardized testing. She has finished Gamma so you can expect her to do well on questions that involve adding, subtracting, and multiplying. Forget division, fractions, decimals, percents... Those questions she is going to be totally lost on. You have to go through those books before you can expect her not to miss them. It will help if she knows that going into the test. I had one dd who used MUS. I just let her know that I did not expect her to know how to work all of those types of problems because she had not covered them yet. It helped her to not worry about it. She knew she would learn those later.

 

3rd. Language arts...While the topics covered in a 3rd grade book are the same as in a middle school book, the difficulty level of the sentences goes up considerably. You may want to switch to a more traditional type of book if you want her to do well on testing next go round. I would go ahead and jump to the 5th grade book. The difference in the 4th and 5th shouldn't be all that huge.

 

4th. Reading. This is the hardest. Reading speed is often a problem for some kids on standardized testing. It is often helpful for kids to practice for them. It really is a different type of reading than reading a book. Kids who are good readers can make the switch effortlessly. Apart from that, there isn't a whole lot you can do other than just be encouraging. 3rd and 4th grade seems to have a huge distance between reading abilities. Some kids have made that jump to almost adult level reading while others are just starting to really catch on. It is also the age where learning disabilities are usually noticed.

 

5th. Spelling. Well, it is a problem for some kids. Me, I despise the way they test for it. I do not think it is accurate. You know if she has spelling difficulties or not. It is usually obvious.

 

6th. Never pay any attention to any other areas of the test. They usually test for reading comprehension and ability in reading charts. Sometimes, they just see if certain silly facts have been learned. Mine all missed "Who was Juliet Lowe." Hmmm, we never covered her...

 

Lastly, if she was overwhelmed by the test, she is not going to have done well. She will have missed questions she would have normally gotten correct. I have one dc who used to do either fantastic or horrid. The second she knew she missed a question she freaked and missed them frequently from that point on. She is a perfectionist.:tongue_smilie: She has gotten better with age.;)

Edited May 24, 2011 by Lolly

[Lolly]

Not in our district. Not only is there no gifted program, it is extremely difficult to get a grade skip, even with IQ and achievement scores at the 99th+ percentile. And why would they want to skip kids who are sure to do well on the state testing up to a grade where they may not do as well?

 

:iagree:

[Carrie12345]

Not to thread hijack, but...

 

You're the second person who has said something like this, and it's making me question my own childhood experiences. I didn't believe I scored below 95th percentile on any section of any standardized test I took in elementary or middle school. A 97% upset me, because most of the time I got 99%. I was held back in 1st for non-academic reasons, and the idea of jumping me back to my original grade was, as far as I know, never discussed.

 

Are they really grade jumping kids who are consistently in the 90th percentile?

 

Not IME. I was always a 97-99%'er, and there was never any talk of me being brilliant. Ds was always a 97-99%'er (except for writing, which was usually lower 90's) as well as high-IQ (by multiple screenings and full evals), and they treated me like I was insane for wanting to accelerate him.

[abbeyej]

Not to thread hijack, but...

 

You're the second person who has said something like this, and it's making me question my own childhood experiences. I didn't believe I scored below 95th percentile on any section of any standardized test I took in elementary or middle school. A 97% upset me, because most of the time I got 99%. I was held back in 1st for non-academic reasons, and the idea of jumping me back to my original grade was, as far as I know, never discussed.

 

Are they really grade jumping kids who are consistently in the 90th percentile?

 

Not in our district. It's very nearly impossible to get a grade-skip, even with a history of 99th percentiles across the board, high IQ, letters from psychologists recommending a skip, etc, etc.

 

Nor would a 90th percentile score be anything remarkable. Certainly not enough to get a child into the gifted program.

[tex-mex]

Not to thread hijack, but...

 

You're the second person who has said something like this, and it's making me question my own childhood experiences. I didn't believe I scored below 95th percentile on any section of any standardized test I took in elementary or middle school. A 97% upset me, because most of the time I got 99%. I was held back in 1st for non-academic reasons, and the idea of jumping me back to my original grade was, as far as I know, never discussed.

 

Are they really grade jumping kids who are consistently in the 90th percentile?

Yes. If you look at it from a classroom profile, it is rare for a student to score in the 90% percentile. I think in all of my years teaching, I've only come across 4-5 students (in a 15 year span) who scored that high in a public school setting.

 

I taught at a Charter School with a rigorous classical curriculum. I had one student one year score across the board in the 90% percentile. (Math was consistent with 96%, reading was 99%, and so on...) His cum file showed this same score the previous year. We used the results (plus documentation/portfolio and parent's consent) to skip him to a higher grade for the upcoming year.

 

Another school I taught at was a regular public school in a rural setting. I had a brilliant student and the previous year's testing showed her in the 90% percentile. Since we were rural and without a Gifted and Talented program, we ended up promoting her the second month of school. She excelled in the upper grades. I kept in touch with the mom and she still thanks me for speaking up for her ds. She is in college now.

 

Caveat: Not all GATE programs are great. When I taught, there was a lot of politics with it. Some parents rightfully complained of it in one school district I taught in (we moved from the rural area of CA to near Malibu/Westlake/Calabasas -- very wealthy area). And to be honest, the GATE program was a joke. They pulled out the students the last hour of the day (one or two days a week) to do projects that in my opinion added up to busywork. Parents were asking to profile those kids and place them in a classroom for all day advanced curriculum. But public schools couldn't do that. Many parents ended up transferring their high ability child into a top notch private school. A few homeschooled.

Edited May 24, 2011 by tex-mex

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

In the 80's and early 90's two of my brothers and I scored in the 98th percentile or above on all standardized tests. If we scored 97, Mom would ask if we had been paying attention. That was rare.

 

The schools offered to advance us two grade levels, but Mom thought we would be stuck up and friendless.

 

I guess she thought it was better to be bored out of our ever-lovin' minds (but humble) with kids our own age.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Caveat: Not all GATE programs are great. When I taught, there was a lot of politics with it. Some parents rightfully complained of it in one school district I taught in (we moved from the rural area of CA to near Malibu/Westlake/Calabasas -- very wealthy area). And to be honest, the GATE program was a joke. They pulled out the students the last hour of the day (one or two days a week) to do projects that in my opinion added up to busywork. Parents were asking to profile those kids and place them in a classroom for all day advanced curriculum. But public schools couldn't do that. Many parents ended up transferring their high ability child into a top notch private school. A few homeschooled.

 

I did a pullout program in 7th grade which only lasted until Christmas. It was such a farce! We had no direction and no materials. They seemed to think we would all bring our own strengths and interests to the program and play off each other, but we couldn't do that very well because we'd been in public school for so many years. We were not self-starters in 7th grade.

 

We were culled from the whole range of cliques and classes, and had nothing in common other than being smart. The class was experimental and we weren't doing anything astounding, so it was canceled.

 

Most of those kids were not my friends in high school, although we all had a kind of respect for each other. (It was quite a novelty to be labeled anything special in our school.) Most of them are FB friends now, though, more than 20 years later.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

(I'm sorry! Memories triggered, she waltzes tipsily down Memory Lane, dragging thread off with her....)

[tex-mex]

In the 80's and early 90's two of my brothers and I scored in the 98th percentile or above on all standardized tests. If we scored 97, Mom would ask if we had been paying attention. That was rare.

 

The schools offered to advance us two grade levels, but Mom thought we would be stuck up and friendless.

 

I guess she thought it was better to be bored out of our ever-lovin' minds (but humble) with kids our own age.

:lol::lol::lol:

[wapiti]

Not in our district. It's very nearly impossible to get a grade-skip, even with a history of 99th percentiles across the board, high IQ, letters from psychologists recommending a skip, etc, etc.

 

Nor would a 90th percentile score be anything remarkable. Certainly not enough to get a child into the gifted program.

:iagree: I think that's probably the case in many/most school districts. Around here, one would need to score in the 98th percentile just to qualify for a measley weekly pull-out class. Grade acceleration is frowned upon in many places. This is why, IMO, it might be a bit of a risk to put a homeschooled child a grade back on the papers you file with the district - you can't be sure whether district administration will be willing to grade "skip" in the event the child should end up in PS down the line and is academically performing at the higher grade level at that time. It's the converse of the conventional wisdom that it would be easier to record a lower grade level now and simply put them ahead a grade later on if necessary. That's usually not easy to do for kids attending PS. One would hope things might be different for a HSer moving into a PS, but I do think it's a risk to consider.

[Rivka]

Yes. If you look at it from a classroom profile, it is rare for a student to score in the 90% percentile. I think in all of my years teaching, I've only come across 4-5 students (in a 15 year span) who scored that high in a public school setting.

 

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. Percentile scores are norm-referenced. By definition, 90% of students score below the 90th percentile - which would mean that 10% score at or above it. If almost no children at a school are performing at the 90th percentile on a state- or nationally-normed test, it's a low-performing school. High-performing schools are likely to have substantially more than 10% of children scoring at or above the 90th percentile.

[tex-mex]

(I'm sorry! Memories triggered, she waltzes tipsily down Memory Lane, dragging thread off with her....)

Not a prob! ;)

 

My hubs also shares a similar story like yours. He tested like you with a high IQ in the early 70's. Got placed in a GATE Math pull out program and was like eh... over the whole thing. He loved the math olympics. But he preferred sports over brainy (unorganized) programs. He still is not sold on GATE.

[wapiti]

Yes. If you look at it from a classroom profile, it is rare for a student to score in the 90% percentile. I think in all of my years teaching, I've only come across 4-5 students (in a 15 year span) who scored that high in a public school setting.

 

I don't see how this is possible except considering the particular classroom samples you were exposed to during your career. Roughly 10% should be scoring above the 90th percentile.

[tex-mex]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. Percentile scores are norm-referenced. By definition, 90% of students score below the 90th percentile - which would mean that 10% score at or above it. If almost no children at a school are performing at the 90th percentile on a state- or nationally-normed test, it's a low-performing school. High-performing schools are likely to have substantially more than 10% of children scoring at or above the 90th percentile.

Like the bell curve, it is only a small amount of students who score on either end. The majority are in the middle.

 

I taught in CA. Which back then ranked bottom tier in the nation for public schools. I taught in inner city public schools, rural country (no funding for programs like art or music), and in suburban public schools. Most of the schools I taught at were Title I schools. Which mean very low performing schools. ;)

 

The charter school I taught at was created by parents who demanded a quality education. It was a classical curriculum. And rigorous. We had state senators and other VIPs tour our campus to see why these poor Mojave Desert students were scoring high on the standardized test like wealthy areas like Orange County and Palo Alto, CA. It was a great place to teach. But not all public schools were like this.

 

The only "wealthy" school I taught at (non-title I and they could afford a GATE program) was in the Malibu/Westlake/Calabasas area and even then, out of 25 students, only 5 students were in the 80% to 90% percentile. 2 students were above in the 95%-99% percentile. But the majority of my students were in the 50% to 75% percentile. School officials wanted us as a grade level to be at the 75% percentile for API rankings. I recall if scores were unusually high, you had ETS officials knocking on the door and declaring tampering with the test... there was a school district that had a teacher or two fired for such things. It happens.

 

I don't know what to tell you. Other than the state of public schooling in CA has always been known to be poor compared to other states. Another reason we chose to homeschool.

Edited May 24, 2011 by tex-mex

[tex-mex]

I don't see how this is possible except considering the particular classroom samples you were exposed to during your career. Roughly 10% should be scoring above the 90th percentile.

LOL -- see my earlier post. ;)

[ElizabethB]

:grouphug:

 

Based on her reading speed and her spelling, I would try to figure out what is going on with her reading and spelling. How did you teach her to read? What program did you use and did you add any sight words?

 

Most of my remedial students come to me with very low reading speeds. Most of them improve significantly, although for those with dyslexia, their reading speed improves more modestly. However, they do improve and their reading becomes much more accurate. (For the first month or two, their reading speed actually decreases as they spend time focusing on each sound and learning to sound out every word. But, as the phonics and syllable division becomes more and more automated, their reading speeds increase until it is higher than when they started. And, as a bonus, they are more accurate.)

 

I would give her the MWIA, both versions I and II. (Just the phonetic and holistic tests for both version I and II, not the Vote articles.) I would also give her the NRRF reading grade level test, the wide range test, and my New Elizabethian Test. The tests are all here:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/readinggradeleve.html

 

PM me or e-mail me with her results and based on those, I'll tell you what I think your best course of action is. I can also tell you some before and after reading speeds of some of my students around that age. (Before and after words per minute for both the phonetic and holistic tests.)

 

It also sounds like you need to work on some test taking skills, you can practice with the TAKS tests or other free online state tests, Georgia actually has some, here are the Texas and Georgia tests:

 

http://www.tea.state.tx.us/index3.aspx?id=3839&menu_id=793

 

http://www.cpoga.org/CRCTForms.html

 

Practice reading the questions for the stories before reading the story and then quickly identifying and marking answers. Practice reading through questions quickly and giving a good first guess, marking those that you're unsure about to come back to.

 

I would also switch to a math that is going to cover the same type of material that is on a test. Singapore Standards Edition lines up well. MM or other math programs that have topical options may be a good interim fix to transition into a math program that is more aligned with the school teaching sequence, that would allow you to cover anything you missed from MUS without backtracking too much. My daughter's ITBS math scores went up 25% the first year we switched from MUS to Singapore and another 25% the following year. She is also learning a lot more in math and understanding it to a deeper level than when we were using MUS.

 

If you work through some of these issues this summer, I would specifically request another version of the same test and take it again in September or October and see if you are making progress. (Note which version you have before you send it back just in case they don't keep track!)

[Rivka]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. Percentile scores are norm-referenced. By definition, 90% of students score below the 90th percentile - which would mean that 10% score at or above it. If almost no children at a school are performing at the 90th percentile on a state- or nationally-normed test, it's a low-performing school. High-performing schools are likely to have substantially more than 10% of children scoring at or above the 90th percentile.

 

Like the bell curve, it is only a small amount of students who score on either end. The majority are in the middle.

 

No, percentile scores are nothing at all like normalized scores (scores on tests which are scored to produce a normal distribution, or "bell curve.")

 

Percentile rankings are computed by figuring the percentage of test-takers who scored at or below each score. If only 10% fell below a score of 19 correct, 19 is set as the 10th percentile score. If half the test-takers scored below a score of 35 correct, 35 is set as the 50th percentile score.

 

So exactly the same number of test-takers (10% of the total) fall between the 40th and 50th percentile as fall between the 80th and 90th percentile, by definition.

 

The only "wealthy" school I taught at (non-title I and they could afford a GATE program) was in the Malibu/Westlake/Calabasas area and even then, out of 25 students, only 5 students were in the 80% to 90% percentile. 2 students were above in the 95%-99% percentile. But the majority of my students were in the 50% to 75% percentile. School officials wanted us as a grade level to be at the 75% percentile for API rankings. I recall if scores were unusually high, you had ETS officials knocking on the door and declaring tampering with the test... there was a school district that had a teacher or two fired for such things. It happens.

 

If 7 out of 25 students were above the 80th percentile, then 28% scored in the top 20th percentile (based on the state/national norms, depending on the test). That's actually a higher rate of high scores than one would expect, although with such a small sample size you'd expect some anomalous distributions. Why are you saying "only 5 students" as if 5/25 were a negligible percentage?

[*LC]

I agree with posters who have said to wait for the results before you decide how your child did. I remember wanting to beat my head against the wall when my second child first took the ITBS. He talked, he complained, he ... Whatever, he wasn't suppose to be doing while taking the test. When I got his scores, I was pleased to see he did middle of the road after all the craziness that went on during his testing. Upon looking at the results closer, I had actually read the mid-range scores for test takers. His scores were great.

 

I don't know if your daughter is behind what she would be doing in 4th grade at a public school. I do have a different opinon about curriculum than others have expressed.

 

I have used FLL 3 and WWE 3 (as well as FLL 4 and WWE 4). In my opinion, they are designed to teach the child skills/information/knowledge that will help the child in the long run and not what will be found on a general knowledge test in 4th grade. Last year, my 4th grader, who had no trouble with FLL4 or Abeka 4 Math, used WWE3, because we had not done dictation previously. This child used WWE4 this year for 5th grade, and my 3rd grader used WWE3. In terms of narration/dictation, there is a difference, but with typical school material, there isn't much difference between the two. Much of what is covered in WWE isn't covered on the ITBS.

 

I haven't used your other curriculum, but they could be the same type of situations.

 

I hope the rest of testing goes better.

Edited May 24, 2011 by *LC

[AngelBee]

I agree with posters who have said to wait for the results before you decide how your child did. I remember wanting to beat my head against the wall when my second child first took the ITBS. He talked, he complained, he ... Whatever, he wasn't suppose to be doing while taking the test. When I got his scores, I was pleased to see he did middle of the road after all the craziness that went on during his testing. Upon looking at the results closer, I had actually read the mid-range scores for test takers. His scores were great.

 

I don't know if your daughter is behind what she would be doing in 4th grade at a public school. I do have a different opinon about curriculum than others have expressed.

 

I have used FLL 3 and WWE 3 (as well as FLL 4 and WWE 4). In my opinion, they are designed to teach the child skills/information/knowledge will help the child in the long run and not what will be found on a general knowledge test in 4th grade. Last year, my 4th grader, who had no trouble with FLL4 or Abeka 4 Math, used WWE3, because we had not done dictation previously. This child used WWE4 this year for 5th grade, and my 3rd grader has used WWE3. In terms of narration/dictation, there is a difference, but there with typical school material, there isn't much difference between the two. Much of what is covered in WWE isn't covered on the ITBS.

 

I haven't used your other curriculum, but they could be the same type of situations.

 

I hope the rest of testing goes better.

:iagree:

[tex-mex]

 

If 7 out of 25 students were above the 80th percentile, then 28% scored in the top 20th percentile (based on the state/national norms, depending on the test). That's actually a higher rate of high scores than one would expect, although with such a small sample size you'd expect some anomalous distributions.

:confused:That segment of student population you will note in my previous note were in the wealthier demographic. And not a part of the original example I was sharing. Test scores like that were not unusual in that upper class school district.

 

However, at the Title I schools I taught at were high poverty schools with the majority of students behind academically or at risk of falling behind. Those students (4-5 students in my career teaching in the Title I schools) who did score in and above the 90% percentile were rare exceptions to the rule.

 

I realize statistically you are only looking at numbers via this thread... but unless you have taught in an inner city public school, you'd realize quickly that the majority of students I taught were below grade level.

 

One 3rd grade class that I taught had 1/2 of the students at a 1st/2nd grade reading level, for example. I had another quarter of the class being severely illiterate and Special Needs/Special Ed. The remaining students were average. Back then, whole language was the mode in learning. I recall being frustrated at the fact we could not use the grade level reading textbook or math textbook as it was too difficult. I had no teaching assistants. Parent volunteers were unheard of in an inner city school. It was a challenge to teach in that situation.

 

******************************************

It was not until I taught at the one charter school (in that Title I school district) that had many students who were at or above grade level -- when I discovered I could actually TEACH "grade level" and not have to worry. It was a sad commentary on the haves vs the have nots.

 

For me, it was an eye opener in how much of a difference there was between wealthier school districts and poorer school districts. I only taught for 2 years at the wealthier school district. I taught for 13 years in inner city and rural school districts. And yes, the schools in the Malibu/Westlake/Calabasas are far better public schools than the inner cities or rural areas of Southern CA. I could go on about the entire mess that is our public school system. Standardized tests alone are not the culprit. (Sorry for the thread hijack, OP... enough rambling from my soapbox! Those who want to discuss can PM me. I'll step away from the thread. :))

[Lolly]

Like the bell curve, it is only a small amount of students who score on either end. The majority are in the middle.

 

I taught in CA. Which back then ranked bottom tier in the nation for public schools. I taught in inner city public schools, rural country (no funding for programs like art or music), and in suburban public schools. Most of the schools I taught at were Title I schools. Which mean very low performing schools. ;)

 

The charter school I taught at was created by parents who demanded a quality education. It was a classical curriculum. And rigorous. We had state senators and other VIPs tour our campus to see why these poor Mojave Desert students were scoring high on the standardized test like wealthy areas like Orange County and Palo Alto, CA. It was a great place to teach. But not all public schools were like this.

 

The only "wealthy" school I taught at (non-title I and they could afford a GATE program) was in the Malibu/Westlake/Calabasas area and even then, out of 25 students, only 5 students were in the 80% to 90% percentile. 2 students were above in the 95%-99% percentile. But the majority of my students were in the 50% to 75% percentile. School officials wanted us as a grade level to be at the 75% percentile for API rankings. I recall if scores were unusually high, you had ETS officials knocking on the door and declaring tampering with the test... there was a school district that had a teacher or two fired for such things. It happens.

 

I don't know what to tell you. Other than the state of public schooling in CA has always been known to be poor compared to other states. Another reason we chose to homeschool.

 

 

Not the way standardized tests work. Yes, I'd say you were in a very low performing district.

[ktgrok]

OP, you said that when you looked at her test/answers she got a lot wrong. Was this on things she should know, based on what you have covered in your schooling, or was she getting things wrong that she hasn't seen before? If you would have expected her to know it because she gets it right in classwork than you have test anxiety. If you haven't covered it than yes, you are behind grade level and need to decide how to address that. My son did poorly on grammar sections of the CAT, and it was on things we had covered briefly in the beginning of the year. So we changed to a different program to help with his retention of the material, as he obviously wasn't retaining it with the one we were using. There were also some math questions he didn't get, but it was stuff we hadn't covered yet. I knew we were a bit behind because I had done some remediating when I pulled him out of public school that year, and I had a plan to get us on track. So no big deal there.

 

Does this make sense?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

A couple of suggestions on what I might do in a similar situation. I hope some of this is helpful. It did get rather long.

 

If you haven't sent the test booklet back, then I would make some notes on the sections where she left many blank or answered many incorrectly. I noticed that there were some concepts my 3rd grade son struggled with, in part because they were linguistic concepts that we just haven't addressed (Prefixes and suffixes will be the source of a big hit for him. He could read the words but not identify which one had a prefix.). [i've ordered Wordly Wise to give him more overt vocabulary skills.]

 

Try to assess your dd's reading level. Another poster (ElizabethB?) linked to some tests. You could also find a book that she is reading comfortably and check what reading level it is (either type it into a Word Document and run the spelling and grammar check, which should give you a readability level or you can use the Fry Readability Graph). Or you could do a Running Record analysis as she reads something out loud to you.

 

The reason I suggest this is that we noticed that my son was taking much longer than his peers on completing test sections (Stanford/SAT). I suspect that since he has just come into his reading skills this year, that he was partly struggling to read each and every test question. (I'm guessing his reading level is not far behind your dd's Magic Tree House and other early chapter books in a day or so. Longer chapter books he will work through one chapter a day, but not with ease yet.)

 

Then I think I would wait for the test results. That will give you a better sense of if she was missing test questions that were on the upper range of grade level in order to test a full spectrum of students or if she was missing questions that an average on grade student would be getting right.

 

FWIW, the law in my state says that homeschoolers have to have a "composite score in or above the fourth stanine or 23 percentile" in math and language arts. (I can't remember if ITBS as a science or social studies section. I've found there is a large disconnect between these sections and our family's scope and sequence.) I will be changing some of our material and emphasis based on what I observed during testing and based on scores, but I won't be reconsidering homeschooling unless we are far below that legal requirement.

 

If you have access to some practice tests or sample test sections, you might want to play around with those some this summer. It might help demystify the testing situation. It may also give you insight into sections your dd was struggling with. I used a Spectrum test prep book (however, it didn't have a section on prefixes/suffixes so that caught us off guard). Sometimes the released tests from states can be a good free bank of test questions, but remember that they are testing recollection of specific standards taught in a specific order so they might not match up with the ITBS questions.

 

I noticed with the group of students I tested, that they were very unfamiliar with the test setting and requirements to not talk, not get clarification on test questions, not discuss stories they remembered about pictures in the sample questions, etc. If you've been doing a lot of oral review of what you do in school, then your dd might not be accustomed to the read and answer and don't talk setting she was in. Getting flustered might have led her to decide that she couldn't answer any more questions (I'm thinking about the crying in reading comp or

 

If you determine that reading at grade level is part of the problem, then you might want to make that a big focus of summer. Work on fluency, stamina and speed.

 

The library has summer reading program, as do some big books stores. The Book Adventure website might be helpful as an incentive (you can go in as the teacher and put in your own incentive rewards). Some of the Book Adventure quizes are asking superficial questions, but it can provide an incentive to read more. You could also do something similar at home with having her read and tell you the main part of the story, with a sticker chart to count toward some goal.

 

You might consider retesting her in a couple months. If you gave the CAT again, it might show if she has slipped on that test compared to her scores last year. I think BJU usually has a discount on tests administered in the fall, so you could do the ITBS then.

 

One of the things that I'd discuss with dh is that you want to figure out what the real issues with the test were (actual achievement level, test anxiety, harder questions than she expected because the test is measuring a wide spectrum of student ability, sequence of learning that you aren't following - especially for science and social studies, etc). I would discuss that I want to find and correct (if necessary) any problems that dd was having, not just decide that all of homeschooling isn't beneficial because of one test situation. I would discuss things like the fact that a standardized test isn't something that most students ought to get high scores on, because of the norming.

 

I am only familiar with the FFL and WWE. I have just started using level 3 with my third grader in the last couple of months. I think there is a lot of good meat in these books, but not necessarily structured in the ways that test questions are set up (see the earlier prefix, suffix discussion). I wouldn't be in a hurry to jetison what you're using, if that is the level your dd is working at.

 

I am (in our own situation) looking at how much time and effort we are really putting into school and where we are not really putting forth enough effort (like when I spend too long on the boards in the morning:D). If you are pleased with the materials you're using, you might want to sit down with your dh and discuss the sequence that you have planned for the next few years. You might reassure him that your dd won't be forever unaware of who Harriet Tubman is, but that she will be learning about serfs before US slavery.

 

(Or maybe you'll decide to do some wide science and social studies reading to "catch up" to some of the hot button topics. I realized that I have to add some familiarization with US landmark buildings and African American historical figures so my kids know what and who they are looking at.)

[2squared]

One last question is why is it taking "several weeks" to get this test done? Normally the ITBS is given over 2-3 hours per day for 3 days.

 

This isn't directed to Martha in particular, but I did want to address the comments regarding length of testing time. My 3rd grader is taking her ITBS right now, and the testing directions state, "It is usually best to give the Complete Battery in either six or twelve sessions on six different days.....It is not advisable to give all the tests on seven consecutive half days (3 1/2 total days)...."

 

I usually give the ITBS over 5 days, but I can see giving it over 2 weeks since *I* would be giving it only during nap times.

 

Like someone else posted, I would go through the questions and answers and try to diagnose the situation. I've been going over my dd's test with her, and the post-mortem has been helpful. My dd didn't do so well in the punctuation section, but she consistently missed the same three items. I already know what I need to address and how I'm going to do it.

 

:grouphug: I am sure this is very stressful for you.

[Jenny in GA]

:grouphug:

 

Based on her reading speed and her spelling, I would try to figure out what is going on with her reading and spelling. How did you teach her to read? What program did you use and did you add any sight words?

 

Most of my remedial students come to me with very low reading speeds. Most of them improve significantly, although for those with dyslexia, their reading speed improves more modestly. However, they do improve and their reading becomes much more accurate. (For the first month or two, their reading speed actually decreases as they spend time focusing on each sound and learning to sound out every word. But, as the phonics and syllable division becomes more and more automated, their reading speeds increase until it is higher than when they started. And, as a bonus, they are more accurate.)

 

I would give her the MWIA, both versions I and II. (Just the phonetic and holistic tests for both version I and II, not the Vote articles.) I would also give her the NRRF reading grade level test, the wide range test, and my New Elizabethian Test. The tests are all here:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/readinggradeleve.html

 

PM me or e-mail me with her results and based on those, I'll tell you what I think your best course of action is. I can also tell you some before and after reading speeds of some of my students around that age. (Before and after words per minute for both the phonetic and holistic tests.)

 

Practice reading the questions for the stories before reading the story and then quickly identifying and marking answers. Practice reading through questions quickly and giving a good first guess, marking those that you're unsure about to come back to.

 

 

 

Thanks!

I know you said to PM you, but I thought this might be helpful to someone else too, so I;m putting it here first.

 

I just gave her the Wide Range Test. She missed one or none until she got to line 50 -- there she missed three. Then she missed four at line 57, and we stopped there.

 

I also gave her the NRFF test, both parts.

In Part Two she got zero or one check until Line 4 -- two checks. Line 5 - four checks. Line 6 - four checks.

 

In Part One she got one or zero checks until Line F, where she got three checks. Line G one check, Line H one check.

 

Any thoughts based on this?

 

Oh, you had asked me how she learned to read: almost exclusively with Explode the Code and Beyond the Code.

[Haiku]

I used to work for a textbook development company, and I have experience developing standardized tests. I do not hold them in high esteem. I gave my kids the CAT this year because it was quicker and cheaper than a portfolio review. ;)

 

Here's my take:

 

Standardized tests are not scored based on how well your child does on the test. They are scored based on how well your child does on the test relative to other children who are taking the same test. If your child scores at the 50th percentile, which many homeschool parents would consider a "low" test score, your child is still doing better than 49% of the kids in school. I don't think that standardized testing to make sure that one is "keeping up with the schools" has much merit because the test doesn't measure what you know, it measures how well you did on the test relative to other students. Unless you plan to teach to the test, the scores you get will tell you very little about how your child stacks up against schooled kids.

 

Here's my advice if your husband is worried about keeping up with the Jones's schooled kids: Find a teacher who is against homeschooling, and have that teacher do a portfolio review. You will get the most honest criticism that way.

 

Don't worry about the test score. :grouphug:

 

Tara

[NineChoirs]

It is possible your husband just wants to feel included in the schooling process. I too would wait till you get the test results back before moving forward. Address any weaknesses that the test reveals, and come up with a detailed plan to resolve them. Then present both the results & the plan to your husband simultaneously.

 

Also you can remind your husband that when a child shows weak spots on a test in PS, no one will take the time to come up with a new plan of learning (unless the child shows a clear LD in which case they will be very quick to slap a label on them so they can bring in more money to the school). The beauty of homeschooling is that you care how your child is doing. Even the best PS teachers (and there are many good ones) can only do so much because of overcrowded, unruly classrooms. This improves slightly in High School where students are more likely to be separated based on ability and desire to learn (depending on school district). The lower grades however are chaotic, textbook driven, day cares with little actual learning going on.

[ElizabethB]

Any thoughts based on this?

 

 

That would be a 4.7 grade level on the wide range test and a 3rd grade level on the NRRF test. Based on part 1 of the NRRF test, you are going to need to do some phonics remediation. A 4th grader should not miss any of the words on part 1.

 

Edit: (Actually, it would be a 4.7 grade level or less, each word missed is .1 less, for example, if she missed 1 overall before line 50, it would be 4.6 If she missed 3 overall before line 50, it would be 4.3. The total number of words right gives you a round number like 47, then you divide by 10 to get the grade level.)

 

If you give her the New Elizabethian test and the holistic vs phonetic portions of the MWIA, that will give a bit more targeted information.

 

I am not sure that ETC is that great as a primary phonics program based on how slow it moves and some format things that may lead to guessing problems, but I have not personally used it and I have not tested any students who used it as a primary program, so I am not sure.

 

How she does on the two tests above will give me a better idea for what to recommend for remediation. The good thing is that it should make everything easier once you remediate, a student who is reading well will do better across the board in every subject except math, although a reading weakness will eventually impact math as well in word problems and problems reading the explanations.

 

Edit: For the New Elizabethian Test, just give version a. For the MWIA, give version I and II, just the portion on pages 6, 7, and 8. Make 2 copies of pages 6, 7, and 8. A 4th grader should not miss more than 1 word on each section of part II and should not miss any words on part I of the MWIA. Make sure you time each section of part I and each page of part II, that will give you a word per minute (wpm) score for phonetic vs. holistic words. You want to note which words were missed so you can work on those phonics patterns, but you do not want to teach to this test, you should not teach the exact words on this test, it is a valuable diagnostic tool that you can re-use if you teach to the patterns, not the words. You mark on your copy which words were missed. You should also try to write the mistakes, for example, if she read "squeal" as squirrel, try to write squirrel above the word squeal. But, it is more important to keep track of the overall time for each section and the words missed than to get the exact mistake.

Edited May 24, 2011 by ElizabethB

[Jenny in GA]

 

Edit: For the New Elizabethian Test, just give version a. For the MWIA, give version I and II, just the portion on pages 6, 7, and 8. Make 2 copies of pages 6, 7, and 8. A 4th grader should not miss more than 1 word on each section of part II and should not miss any words on part I of the MWIA. Make sure you time each section of part I and each page of part II, that will give you a word per minute (wpm) score for phonetic vs. holistic words. You want to note which words were missed so you can work on those phonics patterns, but you do not want to teach to this test, you should not teach the exact words on this test, it is a valuable diagnostic tool that you can re-use if you teach to the patterns, not the words. You mark on your copy which words were missed. You should also try to write the mistakes, for example, if she read "squeal" as squirrel, try to write squirrel above the word squeal. But, it is more important to keep track of the overall time for each section and the words missed than to get the exact mistake.

 

 

Thanks again for walking me through all this.

 

I just gave her the MWIA.

 

Holistic I - took 44 seconds total. Missed one word; said "no" instead of "on"

 

Phonetic I - took 49 seconds total. Missed two words: said "mask" instead of "mash" and said "pounds" instead of "ponds"

 

Holistic II - took 3 minutes, 37 seconds. Missed one word: said "gone" instead of "gown"

 

Phonetic II - Unfortunately, I forgot to set the timer, but her from her rate I would guess it was 10-15 seconds longer than Holistic II.

She did miss several here:

- said "put" instead of "pup"

- said "keep" instead of "kept"

- said "brick" instead of "brink"

- said "brich" instead of "birch"

- "spoke" instead of "spook"

- "lion" instead of "loin"

 

So ... any idea what's going on here?

Thanks!!

[EKS]

BTW, if you call her a 3rd grader for the testing, the percentiles will go up.

[ElizabethB]

Thanks again for walking me through all this.

 

I just gave her the MWIA.

 

Holistic I - took 44 seconds total. Missed one word; said "no" instead of "on"

 

Phonetic I - took 49 seconds total. Missed two words: said "mask" instead of "mash" and said "pounds" instead of "ponds"

 

Holistic II - took 3 minutes, 37 seconds. Missed one word: said "gone" instead of "gown"

 

Phonetic II - Unfortunately, I forgot to set the timer, but her from her rate I would guess it was 10-15 seconds longer than Holistic II.

She did miss several here:

- said "put" instead of "pup"

- said "keep" instead of "kept"

- said "brick" instead of "brink"

- said "brich" instead of "birch"

- "spoke" instead of "spook"

- "lion" instead of "loin"

 

So ... any idea what's going on here?

Thanks!!

 

Yes, 2 possibilities based on those scores. However, the first remediation step is the same for both possibilities, so it doesn't matter too much.

 

The scores work out to for level I of the MWIA, Holistic 68 words per minute (WPM) and Phonetic 61 WPM. That is a slowdown of 10%.

 

For the level II of the MWIA, Holistic 58 WPM, Phonetic ? approx 54 WPM if you use 15 seconds more, a slowdown of ? approx 7%.

 

The possibilities are:

 

1. Mild phonetic guessing problems due to the nature and speed of ETC.

2. Mild dyslexia.

 

The reading speeds aren't too bad, but a bit slow for a 4th grader. That being said, the best way to increase speeds in the long run is to slow them down and focus on 100% accuracy and over-learning of phonics, that will lead to automaticity in phonetic reading and eventually will result in faster and more accurate reading. If you focus on reading speed, that will lead to more guessing and more problems.

 

Step one for either case, and helpful for my remedial students who have a bit of a guessing problem but not dyslexia but also helpful for my dyslexic students, work through the program on my how to tutor page, making sure to include a lot of nonsense word work with my phonics concentration game. For things that she reads well and does not guess, you do not have to do the whole section, you can just do a line or two, reading a line or two and having her spell 2 or 3 words. The program on my how to tutor page also adds in spelling rules which should help her spelling. The 10 links at the bottom of the page are everything you will need. You can just use the Blend Phonics Reader, you don't need both it and the original Blend Phonics, I needed both to have more words for my groups of remedial students.

 

You can also have her watch my online phonics lessons on her own, the will re-inforce what she is learning. They use the book of Romans.

 

After a month or two when you complete everything on the how to tutor page and do a few 2, 3 and 4 syllable words from Webster's Speller, retest her with the MWIA level II and both of the reading grade level tests (the wide range test and the NRRF test.) If she does not have a mild case of dyslexia, she should have gained at least a grade level and she should not miss any more than two words on each section of the MWIA level II.

 

If she does have mild dyslexia, her scores will improve a bit but not a whole grade level and she will miss 3 or more words on the MWIA level II. At that point, you will need an Orton-Gillingham (OG) program. There are several options, with her scores she should be able to get by with the cheaper options, like a $25 manual followed by Rewards, around $100 each level, you may need two levels, but one might do it. You shouldn't need the full blown $1,000s of dollar dyslexia options.

Edited May 24, 2011 by ElizabethB