Quebeckers not allowed to homeschool

[Punks in Ontario]

http://www.lfpress.com/news/canada/2011/05/11/18136476.html

 

"The Quebec family being ordered to "socialize" their children using public school and daycare say their provincial government is on a "witch hunt" against them."

 

I'm horrified this is happening in Canada.

[Unicorn.]

Wow. Just... wow. :glare:

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

According to the linked article one of the things the judge had against the mother was that she taught her kids to read with phonics.

 

Lord have mercy.

[LidiyaDawn]

 

I'm horrified this is happening in Canada.

 

It isn't ~ it's happening in Quebec.

 

Now I'll just stand over here looking perfectly innocent…. :tongue_smilie:

 

Really though… I'm not surprised. Quebec has been openly hostile to homeschoolers forever - most of them are underground there, from what I've heard.

[SonshineLearner]

Very sad... I would think that judges would have better uses of their time.

[Spy Car]

It isn't ~ it's happening in Quebec.

 

Now I'll just stand over here looking perfectly innocent…. :tongue_smilie:

 

Really though… I'm not surprised. Quebec has been openly hostile to homeschoolers forever - most of them are underground there, from what I've heard.

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Bill

[Princess Peach]

"That's outrageous," he said. "(Youth Protective Services) deeply resented the fact that the parents were doing home school here. They even sent the second child to school before he was the compulsory age."

 

:001_huh:

Cote says the judge also found the mother's use of "phonics" to teach her children to read out-dated.

 

:glare:

 

I would seriously consider moving in this situation. I would refuse to live in a communist province.

[WishboneDawn]

I would seriously consider moving in this situation. I would refuse to live in a communist province.

 

It's hardly communist. There are likely some factors involved that are specific to Quebec but communism is definitely not one of them. Quebec is a special case and certainly doesn't need communism to do things that make the rest of us ask, "what the heck?" and I mean that in the most affectionate way possible. I'm quite sure the other Canucks and folks from Quebec here get this. :D

 

Anyway, dumb decisions get made in courtrooms everyday. Hopefully the family will appeal this. Meanwhile I'm thrilled to be homeschooling in Nova Scotia where the requirements are, IMHO, some of the most homeschooling friendly in North America.

[Brown4girls]

Wow!

[Princess Peach]

I was not meaning literally communist, I was simply using the term to refer to a place that would have all its citizens in govt run daycare and schools and would use the courts to do it.

[WishboneDawn]

I was not meaning literally communist, I was simply using the term to refer to a place that would have all its citizens in govt run daycare and schools and would use the courts to do it.

 

Socialist might be closer to what you're thinking of.

[Princess Peach]

Socialist might be closer to what you're thinking of.

 

Yes, I should have said socialist. Sorry about that.

[nmoira]

 

I would seriously consider moving in this situation. I would refuse to live in a communist province.

*sigh*

[GWOB]

Wow! She taught her kids to read using phonics? The nerve of that lady. Next thing you know she won't consider french fries a vegetable, or even worse, will try to make her kids think for themselves. Oh the horror!

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

yes that's my daily life... :001_huh:

 

The article does no mention the fact that the pre-compulsory school kids have also been forced to attend daycare.

 

 

What the article also does not mention is that this family is *traditional* Catholic. There's a huge emphasis on the word "traditional" and in this particular case, it's almost a sect. And I'm a practicing Catholic myself.

 

The children only have contacts with other children of the sect. The phonics program being used probably prdates from the early 1930's (not that it makes it bad, but it is outdated in the texts to be read, and the images found in the book). I say 'probably' because I haven't seen what they use, but knowing it's in French and is only phonics really narrows the choices.

 

I read the judgement online. A 'funny' tidbit that I learned is that in Canada, you have freedom of religion but it does not extend to your kids. So this means if circumcision is outlawed one day, the fact that the parents are Jewish would not be enough to get a religious exemption to circumcise the son. You can do what you want with your religion but cannot pass it on to your kids until they're old enough to choose it on their own. Wow. I didn't know that.

 

I really don't know where I stand with regards to this particular case. The judgement really is about hearing problems, and the kids only seeing their cousins and no other child. They seem to be beyond sheltered. But the parents have not done anything wrong per se.

 

ETA: I met the parents two weeks ago at our local conference. That when the news got publicised about the judgement.

[Princess Peach]

*sigh*

 

:confused:

[nmoira]

 

:confused:

I think that reflexively labeling things "communist" or "fascist" or the like is counterproductive at best.

[Princess Peach]

I think that reflexively labeling things "communist" or "fascist" or the like is counterproductive at best.

 

I'm sorry. There really was no offense meant. I didn't say it to be inflammatory. I did clarify I meant socialist instead of communist, although I am no expert and maybe that is uncalled for, as well.

 

I simply was just trying to express my dismay over the situation. I value my family's right to homeschool with very little restrictions and I wish everyone had that privilege.

[kchara]

I read the judgement online. A 'funny' tidbit that I learned is that in Canada, you have freedom of religion but it does not extend to your kids. So this means if circumcision is outlawed one day, the fact that the parents are Jewish would not be enough to get a religious exemption to circumcise the son. You can do what you want with your religion but cannot pass it on to your kids until they're old enough to choose it on their own. Wow. I didn't know that.

 

 

 

Isn't that part of the UN treaty that has everyone up in arms? (I think it's Article 14 that pertains to religion, but it's been a while since I actually read it, so I might be wrong.)

[nmoira]

 

I'm sorry. There really was no offense meant. I didn't say it to be inflammatory. I did clarify I meant socialist instead of communist, although I am no expert and maybe that is uncalled for, as well.

I didn't see those posts until after I'd posted. I wouldn't have posted myself if I'd seen them.

[Teachin'Mine]

It isn't ~ it's happening in Quebec.

 

Now I'll just stand over here looking perfectly innocent…. :tongue_smilie:

 

Really though… I'm not surprised. Quebec has been openly hostile to homeschoolers forever - most of them are underground there, from what I've heard.

 

 

Good to see the "Yes" "No" vote issue is alive and well. :lol:

 

 

How horrible for the families affected by this injustice. Where's HSLDA? Are they only involved in the US? Seems they could use a northern counterpart.

[WishboneDawn]

Good to see the "Yes" "No" vote issue is alive and well. :lol:

 

 

How horrible for the families affected by this injustice. Where's HSLDA? Are they only involved in the US? Seems they could use a northern counterpart.

 

We have the HSLDA here. I'd like to see the reaction in Quebec though to a group with deep roots in religion and the US coming to the rescue. There would be raised hackles methinks.

[Teachin'Mine]

We have the HSLDA here. I'd like to see the reaction in Quebec though to a group with deep roots in religion and the US coming to the rescue. There would be raised hackles methinks.

 

Them there hackles need to be raised. What they're doing is downright wrong! IMO - whatever it takes. Even if they're met with outrage, at least the issue will be made more public and policies and injustices will come to light. This isn't a religious issue so much as a human rights issue - and family rights issue - and a children's rights issue.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

We have the HSLDA here. I'd like to see the reaction in Quebec though to a group with deep roots in religion and the US coming to the rescue. There would be raised hackles methinks.

 

HSLDA Canada is already involved with the case, but not actively representing the family, from what I've read. Don't quote me on that though, I'm not entirely sure of what they're doing and not doing with this particular case.

 

But yes, involving a religious group from the US is the best way to get homeschooling completely banned in Quebec. Oh boy, it would not be pretty. I hope the American HSLDA is smart enough to realise this!

 

Quebecers in general are now very anti-religious, and have been anti-American for a long time now. (Which is kind of funny, because for years Americans were our best friend against the Crown of England. Tides change I guess)

[WishboneDawn]

Them there hackles need to be raised. What they're doing is downright wrong! IMO - whatever it takes. Even if they're met with outrage' date=' at least the issue will be made more public and policies and injustices will come to light. This isn't a religious issue so much as a human rights issue - and family rights issue - and a children's rights issue.[/quote']

 

I'm just pointing out that a public show by the HSLDA would be exactly the wrong move. Quebec is touchy on religious issues. The province spent a very long time under the thumb of the Church. The control the church had over ordinary lives was extraordinary and I'm not sure most of us outside Quebec fully appreciate the degree of it. This is still fresh in the memories of many from Quebec and the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction.

 

What Quebec really needs is a secular francophone homeschooling voice. Any volunteers from here? :D

[mcconnellboys]

Wow, so sorry but I think it has been coming there for a while, has it not?

[Marie in Oh]

in other countries that are moving towards a more socialist government. Sweden, Germany. . . the list may be longer. I think the US could be 10-15 years from this very type of interference. Scary. . . .

[mcconnellboys]

Sooooo, phonics is "outdated" and therefore is not to be used under any circumstances, despite the fact that it, ummm, WORKS, and whole language is killing the ability of our children to learn to read????

[ElizabethB]

If they really wanted to be outdated, they would be using the 1828 Blue Backed Speller like me! Or, I could get them even more outdated with Dilworth's 1740 version or Webster's 1783 version.

 

They will be in my prayers.

[twoforjoy]

Isn't that part of the UN treaty that has everyone up in arms? (I think it's Article 14 that pertains to religion, but it's been a while since I actually read it, so I might be wrong.)

 

The treaty that has been around since 1989 and that every nation except the US and Somalia has ratified? The one that has clearly stripped every parent in every nation except the US and Somalia of their rights to give their child a religious upbringing? (Because certainly, say, Middle Eastern parents, living in countries that ratified the treaty, are forced to raise their kids entirely secularly.)

 

Sorry, my hackles get raised by the opposition to this by right-wing American groups. It's such blatant fear-mongering. It's one of the reasons I would NEVER have anything to do with the HSLDA.

[Shellydon]

This TERRIFIES me. I can see the USA moving in this direction and I hate it. Compulsory daycare is nauseating.

[twoforjoy]

Sooooo, phonics is "outdated" and therefore is not to be used under any circumstances, despite the fact that it, ummm, WORKS, and whole language is killing the ability of our children to learn to read????

 

Phonics works for most children. Not all.

 

I think a lot of people have been given a lot of misconceptions about our educational system. They've somehow been convinced that educators and administrators are these horrible, sinister people who must want kids to be uneducated and so have taken effective methods and gleefully thrown them out.

 

Yes, phonics works for most kids. But, teachers are not expected to educate most kids, especially not as kids with LDs are increasingly mainstreamed; teachers are expected to educate ALL children in their classrooms. And, the problem with phonics is that there is a subset of students for whom it is completely, totally, and utterly ineffective. For students with certain learning disabilities, phonics is a failure. They simply cannot learn to read via phonics. So the exclusive use of phonics was creating a situation where, while most students were learning to read, some were ending up completely illiterate. We're talking about high-school aged students with no ability to do even simple decoding.

 

Whole language doesn't have that drawback. All or nearly all students seem to read with some degree of proficiency in a whole-language environment. You could certainly argue that 1) it's slower than phonics, 2) it doesn't provide the groundwork for spelling that phonics does and so produces poorer spellers, and 3) it doesn't lead to being as strong of a reader as a phonics-based approach might. Those things are likely true for most students. But, again, schools are charged with teaching every student in their care. And if a teaching method is a complete and total failure for some students, then it's simply practical to exchange that method for one that will have some degree of success with every or nearly every student.

 

So this isn't about ideology, but practicality. Classroom teachers are expected to teach a room full of students of a variety of levels of developmental readiness and cognitive abilities to read, and since the 1970s they've increasingly had to teach students with learning disabilities that make traditional methods ineffective right alongside everybody else. That is a terrible difficult situation to be in. No teacher or administrator would chuck something that worked great for something that didn't work; instead, what we saw was a move from a method that worked well for many students but failed entirely for others, to a method that had some degree of success for nearly all students but had some serious drawbacks for most students as well, to a blending of the two methods in the hopes that the best of each would be retained.

 

FWIW, too, European nations went through the same changes in literacy ed as the U.S. and Canada--from exclusive phonics to whole language in the 80s and early 90s to a blended approach today (since the late 90s you'll be pretty hard-pressed to find any school that teaches whole language exclusively)--and they have had consistently high rates of literacy.

 

It seems like, as a previous poster pointed out, the issue might not have been that the family was teaching phonics--I'd find it extremely hard to believe that classrooms in Quebec do not teach phonics at all--but that they may have been using what the judge considered a particularly outdated curriculum.

[twoforjoy]

This TERRIFIES me. I can see the USA moving in this direction and I hate it. Compulsory daycare is nauseating.

 

How? I mean, we have school districts dropping kindergarten because they can't afford it; we certainly aren't moving towards free public preschool for every child, much less compulsory public preschool.

 

What, specifically, do you see that indicates we're moving in this direction?

[WishboneDawn]

This TERRIFIES me. I can see the USA moving in this direction and I hate it. Compulsory daycare is nauseating.

 

I think you can stop being terrified. This is Quebec. People that know Quebec understand there are special circumstances at play there. It's not about socialism or communism or the UN or any worldwide trend. It's about Quebec's special relationship with religion, it's debt to secularism and probably somewhere in this whole mess, because it's never far away, it's concern for it's distinct culture.

 

And, as always, we have one news report on the issue. There's ALWAYS more to the story.

 

The rest of Canada is not moving in that direction. Especially after May 2. Yuck.

 

It might be worth noting as well that the most right wing and conservative of our provinces, Alberta, is far from the least restrictive in terms of hsing regs.

[Marie in Oh]

How? I mean, we have school districts dropping kindergarten because they can't afford it; we certainly aren't moving towards free public preschool for every child, much less compulsory public preschool.

 

What, specifically, do you see that indicates we're moving in this direction?

 

Where is this happeing, because it certainly not the trend country wide? I live in one of the only half-day district in my entire state and the state goverment has mandated full day by 2013, whether there is room or not. I'd like to see that K is being dropped. Our former governer was pushing for manditory preschool and compulsory attendence at age 3. That seems to be the trend I am seeing, so I would love to hear differently.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Marie in Oh

[Emerkaza]

If they really wanted to be outdated, they would be using the 1828 Blue Backed Speller like me! Or, I could get them even more outdated with Dilworth's 1740 version or Webster's 1783 version.

 

AMEN!!!:hurray:

[Shellydon]

 

Where is this happening, because it certainly not the trend country wide. I live in one of the only half-day district in my entire state and the state government has mandated full day by 2013, whether there is room or not. I'd like to see that K is being dropped. Our former governor was pushing for mandatory preschool and compulsory attendance at age 3. That seems to be the trend I am seeing, so I would love to hear differently.

 

 

This. No closing of kinder at all here and public preschools are expanding at a rapid rate. Here, there is no such thing as half day kinder and school programs are provided until 7:00 every evening.

[Teachin'Mine]

Well I clearly didn't understand the dynamics in Quebec of religion vs secularism. I think the idea of a secular, French speaking, group advocating for homeschooling there might be the better way to go. Hopefully someone will step up to the plate.

[Dawn in OH]

According to the linked article one of the things the judge had against the mother was that she taught her kids to read with phonics.

 

Lord have mercy.

 

Phonics is outdated? Really? So, all those studies that show that the sight reading/whole word reading is not as successful as phonics are just written by nut jobs?

:001_huh:

[Punks in Ontario]

It isn't ~ it's happening in Quebec.

 

Now I'll just stand over here looking perfectly innocent…. :tongue_smilie:

 

Really though… I'm not surprised. Quebec has been openly hostile to homeschoolers forever - most of them are underground there, from what I've heard.

 

Yes, I've heard rumours of Mennonites leaving PQ because of the hostility.

 

"The children only have contacts with other children of the sect. The phonics program being used probably prdates from the early 1930's (not that it makes it bad, but it is outdated in the texts to be read, and the images found in the book). I say 'probably' because I haven't seen what they use, but knowing it's in French and is only phonics really narrows the choices.

 

I read the judgement online. A 'funny' tidbit that I learned is that in Canada, you have freedom of religion but it does not extend to your kids. So this means if circumcision is outlawed one day, the fact that the parents are Jewish would not be enough to get a religious exemption to circumcise the son. You can do what you want with your religion but cannot pass it on to your kids until they're old enough to choose it on their own. Wow. I didn't know that. " Cleo in PQ

 

I was hoping you'd comment Cleo. I remember the French Immersion teacher commenting on how hard it was to find French materials that worked English style. (Does that make sense?) That freedom of religion bit sounds rather scary although I see some point. I bet there'll come a day when it will be enforced. For now, I'm glad I live on in ON.

[mcconnellboys]

 

I'm afraid I must disagree with you on this one. Many seasoned educators have been decrying whole language learning for quite some time as a problem. Newer studies indicate that it may actually be disrupting brain development and is certainly leading to huge numbers of functionally illiterate youth today. I read a really good article about this within the past 3months, but can't find it at the moment, sorry...

 

http://ednews.org/articles/whole-language-causes-dyslexia-.html

[Audrey]

It isn't ~ it's happening in Quebec.

 

Now I'll just stand over here looking perfectly innocent…. :tongue_smilie:

 

Really though… I'm not surprised. Quebec has been openly hostile to homeschoolers forever - most of them are underground there, from what I've heard.

 

 

Mmhmm... your first sentence says it all.

[justasque]

This article fleshed out the story a bit:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/quebec-judge-orders-three-year-old-into-daycare-for-socialization

 

I have found that these situations often are way more complex than the initial news stories would have you believe, so I tend to withhold judgment until I can dig up more info. I still have a lot of questions about this one that the news stories have not clarified. A couple of things I found interesting in the news story above:

 

"The family, who have homeschooled for four years, were reported to the province’s Youth Protection Services in November 2009 after a run-in with the local school board...

 

Faris said the judge gave “excess weight†to the government’s experts, who he says “found that one child’s hearing impairment ‘indicated’ that the parents could not be trusted and therefore all the children should be enrolled in public school programs.†Judge Bernier determined that the security and development of the children was compromised by parental negligence.

 

In her ruling, Judge Bernier called the mother’s teaching approach “outdated,†saying it emphasized repetition exercises and acquisition of knowledge rather than the Ministry’s preferred approach of teaching learning skills. She also criticizes the elder children’s social development, noting that they had difficulty at first with the other children when they entered the classroom.

 

“The parents, though aware … of the need to stimulate each child by interactions with peers of the same age, outside of the family, either at school, kindergarten, or day care or occasional education trips, maintain their interest in the teaching model of the home school,†she wrote, going on to lament that they are “refusing to integrate the youngest in kindergarten or day care, and opposing educational outings for the children.â€

 

...the parents apparently had not obtained a homeschooling exemption under the Education Act, which requires that the parents offer a program equivalent to that offered in the schools."

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Yes, I've heard rumours of Mennonites leaving PQ because of the hostility.

Not a rumour. They have left the province.

Cleo in PQ

 

And just so you know, PQ is not used anymore and hasn't been in use for oh, 40 years? It's QC. PQ is for Partie Québécois. And I don't like to see my name or my province associated with that political party. :001_huh:

[ElizabethB]

I'm afraid I must disagree with you on this one. Many seasoned educators have been decrying whole language learning for quite some time as a problem. Newer studies indicate that it may actually be disrupting brain development and is certainly leading to huge numbers of functionally illiterate youth today. I read a really good article about this within the past 3months, but can't find it at the moment, sorry...

 

:iagree:

 

And, there are studies showing that the best way for students with low IQ to learn is phonics.

 

Also, after Richmond switched to phonics, its black students surpassed much richer Fairfax, VA black students who were getting balanced literacy.

 

http://www.votemariaallen.com/minority-achievement.html

 

And, a Florida school that switched from balanced literacy to phonics, from Sally Shaywitz's "Overcoming Dyslexia, A New and Complete Science-Based Program for Reading Problems at Any Level" p. 261:

 

"In one Tallahassee, Florida, elementary school where such a program was implemented, the percentage of struggling readers dropped eightfold--from 31.8 percent to 3.7 percent."

[JessieC]

:iagree:

 

And, there are studies showing that the best way for students with low IQ to learn is phonics.

 

Also, after Richmond switched to phonics, its black students surpassed much richer Fairfax, VA black students who were getting balanced literacy.

 

http://www.votemariaallen.com/minority-achievement.html

 

And, a Florida school that switched from balanced literacy to phonics, from Sally Shaywitz's "Overcoming Dyslexia, A New and Complete Science-Based Program for Reading Problems at Any Level" p. 261:

 

"In one Tallahassee, Florida, elementary school where such a program was implemented, the percentage of struggling readers dropped eightfold--from 31.8 percent to 3.7 percent."

 

I would encourage you to look at these studies in a larger context. Perhaps a portion of students performed better on a phonics test after receiving phonics instruction. By no means does this mean they far surpassed others in reading in the long term. Often these studies are biased or you can find the exact opposite conclusion in a different type of study. Often the "quick and dirty" quantitative studies are favored over the longer and more in-depth qualitative studies--in fact, qualitative studies were completely omitted from the National Reading Report that ended up recommending No Child Left Behind, with disastrous consequences.

 

I've never heard anybody argue that a phonics-only approach is best. Come on! You think balanced literacy--as in, having children read real books and be read to a lot, in addition to phonics instruction--is less effective in the long term that a phonics-only approach?

 

And as for the previous poster who said that whole language is disruptive to the brain--I don't even know what to say to that.

[kchara]

The treaty that has been around since 1989 and that every nation except the US and Somalia has ratified? The one that has clearly stripped every parent in every nation except the US and Somalia of their rights to give their child a religious upbringing? (Because certainly, say, Middle Eastern parents, living in countries that ratified the treaty, are forced to raise their kids entirely secularly.)

 

Sorry, my hackles get raised by the opposition to this by right-wing American groups. It's such blatant fear-mongering. It's one of the reasons I would NEVER have anything to do with the HSLDA.

 

Yep, that would be the one. Apparently, it's not so much fear mongering if it's being implemented in Canada... not allowing parents to practice their religion with their children, as in the case of circumcision. I'm not sure if it's actually being followed through on, but it's on the books, and that's scary. There's a reason people are opposed to it.

 

ETA: And I know many left leaning people who are just as opposed, btw. It's a parent's rights issue, not a left/right issue.

[JessieC]

This TERRIFIES me. I can see the USA moving in this direction and I hate it. Compulsory daycare is nauseating.

 

What makes you think the U.S. is moving in this direction? There is no way compulsory daycare would ever be passed. I don't get it.

[Sputterduck]

This article fleshed out the story a bit:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/quebec-judge-orders-three-year-old-into-daycare-for-socialization

 

I have found that these situations often are way more complex than the initial news stories would have you believe, so I tend to withhold judgment until I can dig up more info. I still have a lot of questions about this one that the news stories have not clarified. A couple of things I found interesting in the news story above:

 

"The family, who have homeschooled for four years, were reported to the province’s Youth Protection Services in November 2009 after a run-in with the local school board...

 

Faris said the judge gave “excess weight†to the government’s experts, who he says “found that one child’s hearing impairment ‘indicated’ that the parents could not be trusted and therefore all the children should be enrolled in public school programs.†Judge Bernier determined that the security and development of the children was compromised by parental negligence.

 

In her ruling, Judge Bernier called the mother’s teaching approach “outdated,†saying it emphasized repetition exercises and acquisition of knowledge rather than the Ministry’s preferred approach of teaching learning skills. She also criticizes the elder children’s social development, noting that they had difficulty at first with the other children when they entered the classroom.

 

“The parents, though aware … of the need to stimulate each child by interactions with peers of the same age, outside of the family, either at school, kindergarten, or day care or occasional education trips, maintain their interest in the teaching model of the home school,†she wrote, going on to lament that they are “refusing to integrate the youngest in kindergarten or day care, and opposing educational outings for the children.â€

 

...the parents apparently had not obtained a homeschooling exemption under the Education Act, which requires that the parents offer a program equivalent to that offered in the schools."

 

Refusing to integrate? I take pride in that. I don't want to integrate my child into a broken system.

 

I feel bad for these folks!

[ElizabethB]

I've never heard anybody argue that a phonics-only approach is best. Come on! You think balanced literacy--as in, having children read real books and be read to a lot, in addition to phonics instruction--is less effective in the long term that a phonics-only approach?

 

And as for the previous poster who said that whole language is disruptive to the brain--I don't even know what to say to that.

 

The only thing I like about balanced literacy is its stated claim of getting children to love books and read real books. Unfortunately, the hundreds of children I have remediated in my 17 years as a phonics tutor have not been able to read books until I taught them phonics using a lot of nonsense words to help them undo their guessing habits from learning sight words and being taught to guess from context.

 

I think it was disruptive to my students' brains, the older my students were and the longer they had been guessing at words, the longer it took to remediate them and the harder it was to remediate them. The only older students who have remediated very quickly were the students I taught in a homeless shelter in Los Angeles, they had missed so much school they had never been taught sight words, the were able to quickly get up to the 12th grade level, they were fastest older students I have ever taught, much faster than my middle class students who have been taught sight words.