melissel Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Clearly, I'm completely inept and shouldn't be allowed to parent any longer :glare: Honestly, I have no idea what to do with this child! We've had smooth sailing for awhile, and I thought maybe we were through a stage or something. But the last three days I've considered shipping her to my mother's house for a week or so. Just as an example, this morning we wrangled because she asked me (politely) to put some kind of fruit, anything we had, into these new glass bowls that I bought. Everything was fine, attitudes were fine, everyone was polite. I sliced up an apple, and made both girls some yogurt and granola. When she came in to eat and saw the apple, she got mad and said she meant any kind of fruit EXCEPT for an apple. I said that was all I had. She made a few more snotty remarks, and I took her (mostly eaten) breakfast away and told her I don't feed people who treat me like a servant. She insisted on having it back, and I said she could have it when she asked me politely. She walked across the kitchen and took it, and I took it back from her. She picked up her full cup of water, glared me right in the eye, and dropped it on the floor :svengo: That's when I took her by the upper arm, maneuvered her off her stool to the kitchen doorway, and told her to get out of my kitchen :( And this is all mild compared to what has gone on here the past few days :banghead: She's openly defying me. Last night I told her to get out to the living room so I could speak to her. She got into her bed. I gave her until the count of three, and she rolled over, snuggled up to her blanket, closed her eyes, and sighed like the most contented child in the world :blink: I read all the time that you are supposed to tell the kid, "You can choose to do what I'm telling you or I'll have to help you do it." Or that you have to MAKE the child do what you tell her. Or that you can have her practice, over and over, doing the thing (closing the door quietly, asking for something politely, etc.) she didn't do in the first place. But how exactly do you make/help her without crossing a line physically? In the past three days, I've had to "help" her cross a parking lot and get into the car to go home from gymnastics, get her sister's toothbrush and hand it to her, get from the bedroom to the living room, and get out of the kitchen. It does not seem to be working. And I've made space on my bookshelf. Please send the award over when you have a moment :willy_nilly: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dulcimeramy Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Mercy! Is this your 5yo or your 8yo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kchara Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Wow. :grouphug: We have weeks like that, too. Sending you more :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melissel Posted May 7, 2011 Author Share Posted May 7, 2011 Mercy! Is this your 5yo or your 8yo? Five-year-old... Wow. :grouphug: We have weeks like that, too. Sending you more :grouphug: Thanks *sigh* I am absolutely terrified of puberty and the teen years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Hmmm... I don't know, but from experience I'd say to get her on your side right away. In a year or so, you won't be able to "make her" do much. Perhaps tell her what to do, and then sit there with her until it's done... then charge her for your time? (Ok, that took you 15 minutes; you can do the (fill in the chore) or give me $5 out of your bank).... Don't ground her to her room (if you do that) ground her "from her room" if you use anything like that.... Have her use her energy.... This is something that will work if you can do it with a strong willed child... Have her do the chores that I was suggesting (in a matter of fact way....) or double the time if she waits till after Daddy gets home.... (If he'll stand behind you) "You can do the chore now, or double time if you wait till after Daddy's home" If you don't have chores, my friend has her kids run laps around the house... "That's 5 laps... go..." With kids who have these tendencies, I really believe that physical work is one of the things missing from their "daily diet"..... Also, without connecting the two, reading Love and Logic... and instituting the suggested "2 hrs" of time... according to their suggestions... (so it's not another battle...) is a good suggestion. If you put off dealing with it... it's worse... it doesn't get better ... :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotherMayI Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 :grouphug: You sound like a saint to me! I would have been tempted to drop a glass of water on her as she snuggled in her bed...so pass the award to me! Is this your 8 year old? I think you are actually doing the right thing. Perhaps you need to take away priveleges and/or toys? I'm sure that others will have better advice. I don't think what you describes deserves the Bad Mommy Award! :grouphug: again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KS_ Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 I read all the time that you are supposed to tell the kid, "You can choose to do what I'm telling you or I'll have to help you do it." Or that you have to MAKE the child do what you tell her. Or that you can have her practice, over and over, doing the thing (closing the door quietly, asking for something politely, etc.) she didn't do in the first place. But how exactly do you make/help her without crossing a line physically? In the past three days, I've had to "help" her cross a parking lot and get into the car to go home from gymnastics, get her sister's toothbrush and hand it to her, get from the bedroom to the living room, and get out of the kitchen. It does not seem to be working. And I've made space on my bookshelf. Please send the award over when you have a moment :willy_nilly: I've felt this way many times in trying to raise my ds. All the common sense parenting techniques have *never* worked with him. He was getting strong enough when he was 4 or 5 that there was no way I could make him do anything by force, and the battle of wills with giving him a countdown to respond or obey just made him more volatile and angry. I was very worried about what I'd be facing when he got to be a teen. Long story short, the two things that have made the most difference were the books Transforming the Difficult Child and The Explosive Child. I read Transforming first and it really helped change our relational dynamic, but he was still having meltdowns over things and I had no clue why. I wish I had read The Explosive Child at the same time, but didn't get a copy of that for a few more years. That was the puzzle piece we were missing. He's still not an easy or compliant child, but I'm also not worried about how he's going to be as a teen anymore :) (he just turned 12). After I read The Explosive Child, I explained some of it to him and how I wanted to help him through his frustration and that I wasn't against him or trying just to frustrate him (which he really thought I was). So although he still gets worked up about stuff, he's much, much quicker to calm himself back down and we don't have hours or days where he's raging around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melissel Posted May 7, 2011 Author Share Posted May 7, 2011 Hmmm... I don't know, but from experience I'd say to get her on your side right away. Thanks, I appreciate this, and I totally hear you, because I know these battles in the teen years will be over much bigger, far more important things :( How would you suggest I get her on my side? I thought I was doing that, and 90% of the time she's a very loving child who hugs me and tells me she loves me and asks me to sleep with her, etc. But in spite of all that, we hit these brick walls where no matter whose side I'm on, she's trampling me. You are right about the exercise, and I'll do that. We've just gotten past several weeks of sickness here, so we need it. :grouphug: You sound like a saint to me! I would have been tempted to drop a glass of water on her as she snuggled in her bed...so pass the award to me! Is this your 8 year old? I think you are actually doing the right thing. Perhaps you need to take away priveleges and/or toys? I'm sure that others will have better advice. I don't think what you describes deserves the Bad Mommy Award! :grouphug: again! Thanks, that made me laugh :001_smile: After today's incident, I cleared her room. I informed her who's actually in charge of this house, and that I'm not her servant, and that all I'm legally required to provide for her is food, water, and a bed, so now that's all she gets until she changes her attitude and starts treating me with some respect. She'll have to earn back the toys. I had her stay in there and think about where she went wrong this morning and how she could start showing me that she could behave better. She came out with lots of apologies and much better behavior and has been very polite since. So I guess that's a start. Long story short, the two things that have made the most difference were the books Transforming the Difficult Child and The Explosive Child. Thank you for saying that. It feels the same way here. And I know she has SO MUCH frustration! I don't know why! She was born that way, I swear it! She fought everything, even nursing. She refused to wait and keep nursing past the first letdown to make another one happen, she'd kick and fuss and scream and be so mad! Of course that made my supply drop, which was just this vicious cycle. At five months old she realized that we had food on our plates at meals, and she kicked and fussed until I finally bought her puffed rice so she thought she had food too. After a week, that child realized that we were not ALL eating puffed rice, and she refused to touch it. She started grabbing at my fork and would not settle until she saw my put food from my plate onto her tray :001_huh: FIVE. MONTHS. OLD. I have Transforming the DIfficult Child, but I never got too far into it because she settled down for awhile, so I stopped thinking I needed it. I'll pick it up again. And I started The Explosive Child, but I stopped because it just didn't sound like her. She's not really explosive, she's more...steely. She has the attitude that she's just going to do whatever she wants, and no one is going to stop her. She also has a smart mouth, and when I try to correct that or require that she speak to me politely, it turns into a throw-down. Do you think The Explosive Child would still be valuable, even if she's not actually being explosive? She doesn't rage, really, but does get very frustrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanaryMelody Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Wow. :grouphug: We have weeks like that, too. Sending you more :grouphug: :grouphug: We have YEARS like that. Actually... wait... still dealing with that kind of behavior. :glare: Nip it in the bud now. It doesn't get better. (said as I remember that defiant attitude and stubbornness of my 13year old and our awful confrontation this morning *sigh* you might have to share that Bad Mommy Award with me ;) ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mejane Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 After today's incident, I cleared her room. I informed her who's actually in charge of this house, and that I'm not her servant, and that all I'm legally required to provide for her is food, water, and a bed, so now that's all she gets until she changes her attitude and starts treating me with some respect. She'll have to earn back the toys. I had her stay in there and think about where she went wrong this morning and how she could start showing me that she could behave better. Perfect! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saraha Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 What we did when my son went through a phase, was for every act of noncompliance, some sort of comfort/priveledge was taken away. The idea is that we work together to make our house a pleasant, comfortable place to be, and if she is not helping achieve that goal, and is in fact depriving us of some comfort/peace, then she will likewise be deprived of comfort/peace. I gave the order and a time frame for accomplishment. If time frame came and went without said action, I just quietly took something away. Start with big stuff, tv/video games, if that doesn't work (like for a friend of mine) then keep going. Her daughter finally broke and apologized when all she had left in her room was a bed and a blanket and her mom took her pillow away. When she apologized, she got the pillow back immediately, then started earning the other stuff back. My son never got that far :). When we started taking his favorite books, that did the trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remudamom Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Oh boy, are you in for it. I'm a non politically correct spanker, and if I were the mom she would surely have to lie down on her bed because she'd be too sore to sit. So tell her she should be nice to you, because she could have ended up with an old fashioned biddy like me instead of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK_Mom4 Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 I will also suggest - Stop Talking To Her. She sounds like a pretty verbal 5yo and you need to stop engaging. When she says something outrageous (like the fruit comment), stop and give her the evil-Mom-eye, but don't say anything. When you need to, give her one correction (NO EXPLANATIONS) and don't say anything else. Not engaging in the back-and-forth will lower YOUR blood pressure and it gets the point across that this is not a negotiation. When her behavior is good, she gets the positive interaction from you. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakotajm Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Hmmm... I don't know, but from experience I'd say to get her on your side right away. In a year or so, you won't be able to "make her" do much. Perhaps tell her what to do, and then sit there with her until it's done... then charge her for your time? (Ok, that took you 15 minutes; you can do the (fill in the chore) or give me $5 out of your bank)....Don't ground her to her room (if you do that) ground her "from her room" if you use anything like that.... Have her use her energy.... This is something that will work if you can do it with a strong willed child... Have her do the chores that I was suggesting (in a matter of fact way....) or double the time if she waits till after Daddy gets home.... (If he'll stand behind you) "You can do the chore now, or double time if you wait till after Daddy's home" If you don't have chores, my friend has her kids run laps around the house... "That's 5 laps... go..." With kids who have these tendencies, I really believe that physical work is one of the things missing from their "daily diet"..... Also, without connecting the two, reading Love and Logic... and instituting the suggested "2 hrs" of time... according to their suggestions... (so it's not another battle...) is a good suggestion. If you put off dealing with it... it's worse... it doesn't get better ... :( I think she is saying that all the parenting advice would be great if only she knew how to make them without being abusive, coercive, etc. I totally understand because I have kids like this and have the same question. Like: Sure, tell the kid she must do x or she is choosing to do y. Great speech, but what if she refuses? Then you say, ok you have to do z or ????what??? Then she refuses that. Then what? Exactly. Sigh...:glare: I have had parents nonchalantly tell me to assign chores when they didn't do x. And I just roll my eyes, thinking "Why in h@#l would she do a chore she doesn't want to do when she has already refused to do something simple like brush her teeth? She's gonna just walk out of the room when I tell her to do the chore, too." Pessimistic, ain't I? Lakota Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 I also have one with a will of steel. :glare: The advice in this book has helped me a lot. Basically, you need to have firm boundaries and very clear consequences for the times the boundaries are overstepped. Strong-willed children need to know exactly what behavior is expected and exactly what will happen if they choose not to comply with the expectations. Otherwise, they will be constantly negotiating and testing to see what kind of behavior they can get away with. :grouphug: It sounds like you are doing a great job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KS_ Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Thank you for saying that. It feels the same way here. And I know she has SO MUCH frustration! I don't know why! She was born that way, I swear it! She fought everything, even nursing. She refused to wait and keep nursing past the first letdown to make another one happen, she'd kick and fuss and scream and be so mad! Of course that made my supply drop, which was just this vicious cycle. At five months old she realized that we had food on our plates at meals, and she kicked and fussed until I finally bought her puffed rice so she thought she had food too. After a week, that child realized that we were not ALL eating puffed rice, and she refused to touch it. She started grabbing at my fork and would not settle until she saw my put food from my plate onto her tray :001_huh: FIVE. MONTHS. OLD. I have Transforming the DIfficult Child, but I never got too far into it because she settled down for awhile, so I stopped thinking I needed it. I'll pick it up again. And I started The Explosive Child, but I stopped because it just didn't sound like her. She's not really explosive, she's more...steely. She has the attitude that she's just going to do whatever she wants, and no one is going to stop her. She also has a smart mouth, and when I try to correct that or require that she speak to me politely, it turns into a throw-down. Do you think The Explosive Child would still be valuable, even if she's not actually being explosive? She doesn't rage, really, but does get very frustrated. My ds was very different even as an infant, too. I do think that The Explosive Child would still be very valuable to read, even if she isn't explosive. The dropping the glass of water seems to me to be the same type of behavior. The book really deals with trying to break the cycle of the child getting so frustrated, and stopping the acting out behaviors. And a lot of it goes against the grain of "you're not supposed to let your child speak to you that way" (or act that way, etc). It may seem that the author is advocating letting the child get away with disrespectful behaviors, but if nothing else is working, I really urge you to give it a try. And tagging onto a PP about getting her on your side, this book does help with that. At this point, your dd probably sees you as trying to make her upset and frustrated and truly doesn't understand that you are on her side and not just trying to make her life miserable. I really didn't understand my son's perspective about that - that he thought I was just out to get him, wanted to make him frustrated and upset, and just didn't understand that I was trying to help him. Neither one of us had the right tools to work well together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 :grouphug: Just be willing to give that award back when WE have a bad week! ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dulcimeramy Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 I'm afraid I'm with remudamom on this. I'd last less than a day with that behavior, and then toss my Gentle Discipline book out the window and grab a switch. That said, here's a Plan B if you feel like being creative and you don't want to use corporal punishment (or any punishment), and if she really is "good" 95% of the time: Capitalize on her flair for the dramatic. Study Disney princesses. The character of the characters is so stereotyped and exaggerated that you can easily use them for lessons. Pop some popcorn, watch Cinderella, laugh and enjoy it, but discuss it as you watch or right after the movie. Who was kind? Who was nice? Who was selfish? Who was cruel? What endeared Cinderella to the mice and birds? Were those the same reasons her Fairy Godmother and the Prince loved her, too? How did the behavior of the princesses disgust others and drive them away? List adjectives for the Stepmother: Selfish. Bossy. Impatient. Cruel. The next day, surprise her with an old dress and apron, hair kerchief, bucket and mop. Tell her that she is Cinderella today. You will be the Stepmother, and her sister will be a step-sister. Line up her stuffed animals in her room so they can be ready to listen to her problems when she finds a moment to escape the hard work. Have her work all day, but make sure you stay in character as stepmother and make it a game. (But don't let her off the hook.) Her job is to be sweet and kind even when others are being unfair and bossy. And, of course, to do lots of washing and sweeping. Give her ribbon awards for doing things for others without being asked. Have a party at the end of the day, complete with cake and a dance with Daddy who thanks her for keeping her temper and working unselfishly for others all day. You can extend these lessons to your older daughter, too. The Little Mermaid, for example, is an interesting character study. Did Ariel show any positive character qualities at all? Then why were we rooting for her? Why did we think she deserved the life of her choice with the man of her choice? If you are religious or spiritual, what does your belief system teach about character qualities? In what way do these Disney princesses make choices that are in keeping with your belief system, or in conflict with it? Are the outcomes believable? After all the discussions, games, and role-playing, you'll have a new frame of reference for dealing with her behavior. "Susie, you are acting just like Drusilla did when Cinderella wore her cast-off beads. That is selfishness. What are the outcomes of selfishness in our lives? What is the opposite of selfishness?" etc. If you are willing to combine Remudamom's strategy with role-playing and character development study, that might be ideal. First, lay down the law and let her know that this treatment of you ends yesterday. Not one extension, not one exception, she will be made to be quite unhappy if she tries to reverse roles on you again. (It doesn't have to be spanking. It can be loss of privileges, or being put in timeout, or whatever seems appropriate for your family. Being gentle doesn't mean that Mommy is a doormat.) Then, from your new position of authority, teach her these lessons that she needs to learn about why we behave as we do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dulcimeramy Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 (The above is not really my wisdom. I have four sons and no daughters. My sister-in-law dealt with her very dramatic and strong-willed little daughter in the manner I described, and it was very successful for them. Her daughter is 12 now, and known for being unselfish and kind. She is still strong-willed, but she uses that strength in positive ways and not to control others.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cera Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Is this your 5 year old? % was absolutely the worst year with my oldest dd. All of a sudden she discovered free will and was bound and determined to make the most of it. At 6 1/2 she is still tough but there is no comparison to how she was at 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Well, Here's the deal... to spank them properly, or to have them do chores, you basically have to do the same thing.. Wait until they are willing to obey. And, if you spank them... then you still have to have them do physical work (use energy) to actually get them over the hill of being willing to obey. Here's what I mean: Ok, you're getting a spank (or spanked) Bend over... (and then you spank) OR are you wrestling the kid down? (That's not a spank that will work, in my opinion) OR: You're going to carry that load of bricks, over to the other side. "Start now." And then you expect them to start. You can explain to them before, that they will move the whole stack (or whatever you tell them) If they get it moved by (whatever a fair amount of time is...) then they're done. If they don't... (and it almost has to be a "to the minute deal") then great! Otherwise, there's another chore. And, it's fine if you make it up a chore. To let you know how long a child may be into delaying... It took my daughter about 10 hrs or so... (can't remember exactly; felt like a week) before she would do what my husband said to do. You have to be willing to wait it out... until they will do as you asked. (without getting angry and shouting) It's not that I believe you can't spank for willful disobedience, but it has to change the actions of the child... and the attitude... and just a spanking... in my opinion... isn't going to do the job. SO, either way, I think you have to be willing to have the "currency" be something that will help actually start "melting" their little heart. At first, when I saw this, I thought that it must be your 8 year old... Good news that it's your 5 year old. You can do this! Remember... It's... "remain calm" and then think "What would I do if I were (insert someone you think of as very firm)" For me, it was my daughter's ballet teacher.... Our house is not perfect by any stretch... BUT, you have more hope than I do... because she's younger when you're realizing that she's naturally stronger than you are. (perhaps strength and will) I am a "nice" person, a "people pleaser" and my daughter is just not. She's nice when she wants to be, and will be a great woman someday. BUT, you have to think of it being ok to be "mean".... When I feel "mean" is when my daughter responds best. When I think of what will make her get back in line... and double that... that's when she will.... NOTHING is won by giving in to her... NOTHING helps when I'm trying to "be nice"... it doesn't carry any weight, or make her have any respect for me. My mom said it best, you have to think of it from her perspective. What does SHE need, to feel like she should be nice and cooperative... (instead of what would make YOU be nice) I have a feeling that you may be more like me... personality wise... and remember.. we are not parenting ourselves... we are parenting a totally unique little person..... and to reap happiness later... you have to be a sergeant now. (But, be a loving mom, as situations allow... like the 2 hrs a week I was talking about) Basically the way Love and Logic tells you to do it is this: Mama wants to spend some time just with you. How about every Saturday, we pick something like... going to the park, or other examples... from 9am-11am. When I tell you it's time... you can come... if you choose not to come.. that's fine... But it's our special time... At 11am... I'll be doing chores... (In other words, if she comes at 9:30... while you started doing laundry... that's fine.. then you have an hour and a half... at 11am you would still be done.... That way, it doesn't end up as another manipulation opportunity....) You can also have a budget... "We have $10 a month to spend each month.... we can do some free and some things that take $$$) Sometimes it takes being a "tough cookie" yourself to make life pleasant.... :) Hugs!! It's hard... but worth it to dig in now.... Teenagers can be blessings... but not as much if you're still establishing a relationship that should be established when they're young... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 5 is when I started Raising A Thinking Child. It worked for us. A big part of it was it gave ME something calm to do. But, I admit my son didn't do anything like the water glass business. I do spank. I haven't in a year or so, but probably 10 times in kiddos life he got a swat or 3. The water glass would have been 11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Oh boy, are you in for it. I'm a non politically correct spanker, and if I were the mom she would surely have to lie down on her bed because she'd be too sore to sit. So tell her she should be nice to you, because she could have ended up with an old fashioned biddy like me instead of you. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Oh boy, are you in for it. I'm a non politically correct spanker, and if I were the mom she would surely have to lie down on her bed because she'd be too sore to sit. So tell her she should be nice to you, because she could have ended up with an old fashioned biddy like me instead of you. I knew I loved you :lol: Ditto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Nyssa Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 One thing I read in a book something like "your strong-willed child", or perhaps it was "the happiest toddler" (though both yours & my children are older than toddlers) has been helpful: avoid that moment when you are glaring at each other, and you are watching to make sure she obeys. It's hard for a kid to resist setting you off by disobeying at that moment of heightened tension. So, I tell him what to do, then I turn my back. It sounds counterintuitive, but I'm much more likely to get obedience that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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