alpidarkomama Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Within Judaism, a Jew who becomes a Christian is a Christian, not a Jew. (Again, I just deleted an entire paragraph I just wrote. I think people just have no idea how horribly, horribly offensive this is to Jews, hugs aside.) "I believe with a full heart in the coming of Moshiach (the annointed one), and even though he may tarry, I will wait for him on any day that he may come." :grouphug: First of all, not all Jews reject Christ. It may not be spoken of in your circles, but many, many Jews believe that Christ is the Messiah. The New Testament (the bible Christians use apart from the Torah) is written predominantly by Jews. Secondly, I think there's a lot of confusion in Christian circles about this. Some believe that even Jews must be "reached", and in your case (and most I presume) have indeed been reached because you've heard about Jesus. Other Christians believe that because Jews are the Chosen people, they will recognize Christ as their messiah at His second coming... this is the camp I am in. <SNIP> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 And where are the groups who go to help these disadvantage people groups with no religious ties? There are some, but not really that many. I am not well versed in all the agencies, but they do exist. Doctors without borders Peace Corp Project Hope Idealist.org I've not heard of them before, they seem to have multiple organizations on their site. Honestly, I'd be interested in hearing about more such organizations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joysworld Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Within Judaism, a Jew who becomes a Christian is a Christian, not a Jew. (Again, I just deleted an entire paragraph I just wrote. I think people just have no idea how horribly, horribly offensive this is to Jews, hugs aside.) "I believe with a full heart in the coming of Moshiach (the annointed one), and even though he may tarry, I will wait for him on any day that he may come." Not to derail the thread, but being a Jew is twofold is it not? It can refer to religion or to race. I have a few friends who are racially Jewish. They still refer to themselves as being a Jew. One is an atheist, one is a Christian, and I know that at least two of them don't prescribe to any set religion, and yet they all refer to themselves as being a Jew, because they use that to describe their race opposed to their religion. Two of these people are friends, one that is atheist and one adheres to the Jewish religion. The one that adheres to the religion doesn't begrudge his friend that is atheist for calling himself a Jew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joysworld Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I am not well versed in all the agencies, but they do exist. Doctors without borders Peace Corp Project Hope Idealist.org I've not heard of them before, they seem to have multiple organizations on their site. Honestly, I'd be interested in hearing about more such organizations. Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that they don't exist, I'm just saying that the religious organizations greatly out number them:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staceyobu Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 (My bolding) I don't want to get side tracked here, but this simply isn't true. There are many Christians in the Middle East and North Africa. To name a few: Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, and Palestine, who have some of the oldest Christian communities in the world, and who's bibles are in Arabic. In addition, Iran has large amounts of Armenian Christians. There are hundreds of churches in Iran. These are the languages spoken in Iran according to wikipedia... Persian, Luri, Gilaki and Mazandarani 58% Azeri and other Turkic languages 26% Kurdish 9% Balochi 1% Arabic 1% The following do not have Bibles in their language... Luri, Gilaki, and Mazandarani have no Bible I cannot find information on Azeri 1 Kurdish dialect has no Bible. 2 dialects have only the New Testament Balohi has the NT only certain dialects of Arabic have no Bible It is estimated that there are 6000 languages in the world. 2000 of them have no translation. I would also encourage you to look up apostacy in islam on wikipedia to see what has happened to recent converts in several countries. People are killed around the world for professing Christianity. Many countries may tolerate Christian foreigners, but do not permit their own citizens to convert. Whoever said they cannot understand why Christians think the gospel is offensive, maybe you should ask leaders of these nations that do not tolerate Christianity why it is offensive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Well it's all a choice, isn't it? I just put the mouse on a different part of the screen and...moved on ;) That's fine if it's online. I can of course, choose to keep my mouse off of this thread. When it's most offensive is when it's in person and you're in a situation where you can't just leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 (edited) These are the languages spoken in Iran according to wikipedia... Persian, Luri, Gilaki and Mazandarani 58% Azeri and other Turkic languages 26% Kurdish 9% Balochi 1% Arabic 1% The following do not have Bibles in their language... Luri, Gilaki, and Mazandarani have no Bible I cannot find information on Azeri 1 Kurdish dialect has no Bible. 2 dialects have only the New Testament Balohi has the NT only certain dialects of Arabic have no Bible It is estimated that there are 6000 languages in the world. 2000 of them have no translation. I would also encourage you to look up apostacy in islam on wikipedia to see what has happened to recent converts in several countries. People are killed around the world for professing Christianity. Many countries may tolerate Christian foreigners, but do not permit their own citizens to convert. Whoever said they cannot understand why Christians think the gospel is offensive, maybe you should ask leaders of these nations that do not tolerate Christianity why it is offensive? This is what you said: "Countries in the Middle East and Northern Africa have the most unreached groups. They do not have the Bible in their language and it is illegal for anyone to be a Christian there or for Christians to share their faith with others." I stand by what I wrote. There are Bibles in Middle Eastern and North African languages. There are "legal" Christians in the Middle East and North Africa. These statistics don't change that. I'm not terribly interested in your break down. I've read about apostasy in Islam through many resources, and shared plenty of conversation on the subject as well. I will continue to do so. Edited May 2, 2011 by helena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that they don't exist, I'm just saying that the religious organizations greatly out number them:) Do we count the amount of work they do or the total number of organizations? One giant, well-organized charity that runs multiple complex projects is not equivalent in "work done" to one tiny one that hands out lunches to school children. One doctor who runs a free clinic is not the same as Doctors without Borders. I think the interplay between more money and more assistance AND religiosity, makes it hard to know what is really going on in many cases. There have been organizations and people who use their influence to convert people, and intertwine medical or food assistance with conversion. That is what makes some people uncomfortable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amirah Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 These are the languages spoken in Iran according to wikipedia... Persian, Luri, Gilaki and Mazandarani 58% Azeri and other Turkic languages 26% Kurdish 9% Balochi 1% Arabic 1% The following do not have Bibles in their language... Luri, Gilaki, and Mazandarani have no Bible I cannot find information on Azeri 1 Kurdish dialect has no Bible. 2 dialects have only the New Testament Balohi has the NT only certain dialects of Arabic have no Bible It is estimated that there are 6000 languages in the world. 2000 of them have no translation. I would also encourage you to look up apostacy in islam on wikipedia to see what has happened to recent converts in several countries. People are killed around the world for professing Christianity. Many countries may tolerate Christian foreigners, but do not permit their own citizens to convert. Whoever said they cannot understand why Christians think the gospel is offensive, maybe you should ask leaders of these nations that do not tolerate Christianity why it is offensive? my husband is from algeria. his whole family lives in algeria. there are christian converts there and no one killed them. anyways i just want to jump in here quick to clear up a misunderstanding that is common. in Islam you are not suppose to kill those who convert to another religion unless they cause a fitnah( problems for the country or its people which would include speaking out against Allah and his prophet in a way that would cause riots or whatever). you are not suppose to kill them just because they convert. this is a misconception that was put out there and people believe it. there are many other religious texts that go with the quran that are essential in reading and understanding. these books explain what passages of the quran mean in detail as well as presents the laws. just because a country is made up of muslims doesnt mean they practice islamic law properly(because none of them do ). in the Quran it says time and time again there is no compulsion in the religion. this means be whatever you want to be but dont go around causing problems or trying to bring others to the path of hell because of your choice so yes im sorry for those who are wrongfully killed for converting to a non muslim religion because in most cases its wrong and completly against the religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 (edited) Unreached is not the same as unsaved, but it's also not the same as 'saved.' Unreached people will not be going to heaven, so yes, I see that as a commentary on the status of their souls. Oh well, I guess I shouldn't comment on what I thought the evangelical people mean, since my beliefs are different. I also highly doubt that the people listed are actually unreached. Edited May 2, 2011 by Lovedtodeath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staceyobu Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 (edited) Any male can receive the death penalty for converting away from islam and women can receive life in prison in iran... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/3179465/Hanged-for-being-a-Christian-in-Iran.html Conversion in Saudi Arabia carries the death penalty as well... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Saudi_Arabia Jordan converts face heavy persecution... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4499668.stm Yemen. The government does not allow conversion away from Islam... http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2010/148855.htm The UAE also does not allow conversion from Islam http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2010/148850.htm So, legal or illegal across the Middle East? Edited May 2, 2011 by staceyobu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 While I'm not offended by it, I don't see the willingness to die for the unreached as being in any way noble or special. It doesn't impress me at all. This is exactly the type of thinking that many non-Christians find to be so offensive. So once again, non-Christians find the gospel offensive. Jesus said, "You worship what you do not know... I am the way and the truth and the life." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amirah Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Any male can receive the death penalty for converting away from islam and women can receive life in prison in iran... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/3179465/Hanged-for-being-a-Christian-in-Iran.html Conversion in Saudi Arabia carries the death penalty as well... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Saudi_Arabia Jordan converts face heavy persecution... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4499668.stm Yemen. The government does not allow conversion away from Islam... http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2010/148855.htm The UAE also does not allow conversion from Islam http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2010/148850.htm So, legal or illegal across the Middle East? i never said it was illegal i just didnt want people to think it was a religious ruling when its not. its a ruling that countries put in place man made rulings not something God said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 As I said, I was a non Christian until my early 30's and I made the choice to not get offended by my friend who I know was always praying for me.I have friends who think that I am not Christian. I get mad at them if they try to tell me that my pride keeps me clinging to my beliefs, or that I am going to hell. I don't get mad if they discuss scriptures with me or pray for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staceyobu Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 i never said it was illegal i just didnt want people to think it was a religious ruling when its not. its a ruling that countries put in place man made rulings not something God said Yes. My original quote should have read that there are many people groups across North Africa and the Middle East who don't have freedom to choose their religion or have the Bible in their language. I think it is a fallacy to think that people who are not Christian have made the decision they don't believe that and want Christians to leave them alone. Many around the world have not had the opportunity to make that choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepymommy Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Do we count the amount of work they do or the total number of organizations? One giant, well-organized charity that runs multiple complex projects is not equivalent in "work done" to one tiny one that hands out lunches to school children. One doctor who runs a free clinic is not the same as Doctors without Borders. I think the interplay between more money and more assistance AND religiosity, makes it hard to know what is really going on in many cases. There have been organizations and people who use their influence to convert people, and intertwine medical or food assistance with conversion. That is what makes some people uncomfortable. :iagree: There have been many documented instances of the "miracle" medicine..a poor unsaved soul from a 3rd world country has an illness that is commonly cured by antibiotics and such here but there they are told to take the blessed medicine and have belief in Jesus and they will be cured and POOF they're better and they're now believers. It's deceitful. Or how about the Christian "swamis"? They dress in saffron robes chant in Sanskrit, build their church to resemble a traditional Hindu temple and again use deceit as a way of converting. What about offering the promise of jobs and money for your poor, starving family and all you have to do is "believe? Often times these practices rip apart families, their traditions and culture are torn. The new converts start to condemn their family members that will not. This is hardly respecting any family values. I understand that many missionaries to do not employ these deplorable tactics, but it needs to also be understood why many communities that have been affected in these ways are so vehemently opposed to missionary work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I, for one, am eternally grateful that some missionary decided to reach my ancestors roaming the wilds of Scotland and Germany. I know there are many people in previously "unreached people groups" that are also eternally grateful. I think that widget is a helpful reminder that we as Americans or Western Europeans are not the face of Christianity and we don't have God's favor because of our race or birth. God's people come from every tribe and every nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepymommy Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Any male can receive the death penalty for converting away from islam and women can receive life in prison in iran... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/3179465/Hanged-for-being-a-Christian-in-Iran.html Conversion in Saudi Arabia carries the death penalty as well... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Saudi_Arabia Jordan converts face heavy persecution... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4499668.stm Yemen. The government does not allow conversion away from Islam... http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2010/148855.htm The UAE also does not allow conversion from Islam http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2010/148850.htm So, legal or illegal across the Middle East? Now I have just never understood why one would want to be a missionary in a country where conversion is not allowed. If you know that what you want someone else to do can get them and their family killed, they why? Yes, I know to save their soul, but by possibly getting them killed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osmosis Mom Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Do you think they were told "We're going to put a picture of your face up on the internet under the title unreached." Why would someone with their own faith sign up for that? Maybe this is old news? But I'm looking at this site, and my face feels flush. These are nice photo's of people who look like their doing just fine. It feels like a mean joke, making a mockery of these peoples lives. It's not just photo's of representatives. It's someones face. What in the world am I missing here? Thank you for posting this beautiful, logical sentiment. Gosh it is so arrogant to come across someone posting pictures of fellow Muslim brothers and sisters that they are praying for. Whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staceyobu Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Now I have just never understood why one would want to be a missionary in a country where conversion is not allowed. If you know that what you want someone else to do can get them and their family killed, they why? Yes, I know to save their soul, but by possibly getting them killed? Because you believe without knowledge of Jesus that they will suffer in everlasting torment. How can you not attempt to share Jesus with someone if you truly believe that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amirah Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Yes. My original quote should have read that there are many people groups across North Africa and the Middle East who don't have freedom to choose their religion or have the Bible in their language. I think it is a fallacy to think that people who are not Christian have made the decision they don't believe that and want Christians to leave them alone. Many around the world have not had the opportunity to make that choice. I agree with you on this I think everyone should have the freedom to make the choice in what to believe in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osmosis Mom Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Any male can receive the death penalty for converting away from islam and women can receive life in prison in iran... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/3179465/Hanged-for-being-a-Christian-in-Iran.html Conversion in Saudi Arabia carries the death penalty as well... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Saudi_Arabia Jordan converts face heavy persecution... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4499668.stm Yemen. The government does not allow conversion away from Islam... http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2010/148855.htm The UAE also does not allow conversion from Islam http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2010/148850.htm So, legal or illegal across the Middle East? In Islam it is not allowed to convert away from Islam. Yes. That's the truth. However, if the person lives in a non-shariah country, then Shariah cannot be lawfully followed since we as Muslims have to obey the laws of the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staceyobu Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Thank you for posting this beautiful, logical sentiment. Gosh it is so arrogant to come across someone posting pictures of fellow Muslim brothers and sisters that they are praying for. Whatever. But wouldn't you think that I, a Christian, will suffer in hell? Shouldn't you be praying for my conversion as well? Or do you think there is another way to heaven apart from belief in Islam? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staceyobu Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 In Islam it is not allowed to convert away from Islam. Yes. That's the truth. However, if the person lives in a non-shariah country, then Shariah cannot be lawfully followed since we as Muslims have to obey the laws of the country. Another question... So, in your opinion, Muslims converting away from Islam is only tolerated in areas where Muslim law is not upheld? Why should Muslims not have freedom to leave their religion? I understand that this would be sad, but why should it be forbidden? Doesn't this take away people's basic rights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene' Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I think you would if you believed it leads to life. Medicine--hate it, tastes bad, gives me a headache, rather would live without it. BUT, it keeps me alive. I take it. That kind of "offensive". Is this really how you feel about being a believer in Christ? You hate it and would rather live without it if you could? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepymommy Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Because you believe without knowledge of Jesus that they will suffer in everlasting torment. How can you not attempt to share Jesus with someone if you truly believe that? But a family should risk dying because of YOUR belief? No one on Earth is God, so no one here can say with 100% accuracy that this is what will SURELY happen. What the Truth is is beyond us, is greater than us. We are not the ones to make judgement calls for other peoples souls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staceyobu Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 But a family should risk dying because of YOUR belief? No one on Earth is God, so no one here can say with 100% accuracy that this is what will SURELY happen. What the Truth is is beyond us, is greater than us. We are not the ones to make judgement calls for other peoples souls. Why would they die if they do not agree with me? The problem is typically if someone converts. Also, just because I am not God does not mean I cannot hold on to beliefs about what will happen in the after life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepymommy Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I'm not saying they could die because the disagree with you. I'm saying that trying to convert people in countries where conversion is illegal (regardless of whether this is right or wrong) and punishable by death is where spreading your beliefs can possibly get families killed. So the need to get into these countries and make bibles and convert makes no sense to me. You said it's because your belief says to save them from everlasting torment and this is where I said that we are not God and should not make judgement calls on that which only He knows. Their is nothing wrong with having your beliefs, it's the spreading of those beliefs as the only path and the missions to convert others that I disagree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 You said it's because your belief says to save them from everlasting torment and this is where I said that we are not God and should not make judgement calls on that which only He knows.Good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6packofun Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Exactly. And it refers to places where the saving gospel of Jesus Christ has not yet been OFFERED and explained as the free gift that it is, not shoved down anyone's throats or held over their heads as a bribe for receiving aid or any of the other dispicable *assumptions* that we hear over and over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staceyobu Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 You said it's because your belief says to save them from everlasting torment and this is where I said that we are not God and should not make judgement calls on that which only He knows. Their is nothing wrong with having your beliefs, it's the spreading of those beliefs as the only path and the missions to convert others that I disagree with. I think this is a point that we cannot come to agreement about. I believe that God has revealed to us exactly how judgement calls are made. It is not a secret kept from us. However, if I believed only God knew what it took to enter heaven, then I would agree with you. In that case, who are we to teach others because there way could be just as good as our way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 TWTM has taught me to reach out for information and clarification, before busting out on a tirade. How lucky we are to have such a diverse group here, who are so open and collectively knowledgable on so many subjects. I started out knowing that I found this website and mentality offensive. And after researching, listening, discussing, I'm still turned off. Nobody even seems to be sure where these photos came from. Did they come from stock photos? Were they taken by missionaries? Are they aware/would they knowingly consent to how the pictures have been used? Nobody clarified where these photos came from. I think we live in a culture where with facebook, blogs, twitter, iphones and even the hunger to be famous, photographed, written about etc has had a profound effect on how we view privacy and the sanctity of our person. These photos in their beauty and implied tragedy, encompass so much of what I can't stand about human beings. I think it's manipulation of those photographed and those who view them, to drum up an emotional response. These photographed people are pawns in a game. I understand that for those who use this practice, it's not a game, that you (random you) want others to have the same opportunity to know God as you do. Thanks everyone for a stimulating weekend! Sorry to write such a choppy post, but the kids are waiting for me, and I think it's time to put on my teacher hat! :auto: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I've seen photos of people I know on the internet and in videos on Youtube. Some of them clearly knew the photo was being taken (it's posed of someone standing there). These are people who know nothing or nearly nothing about the internet. I am absolutely positive these people didn't know their pics were going to be put online and that anyone from anywhere around the world could see them. These are not offensive photos, nor being used for some "cause," but it is a bit jarring to see them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepymommy Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I think this is a point that we cannot come to agreement about. I believe that God has revealed to us exactly how judgement calls are made. It is not a secret kept from us. However, if I believed only God knew what it took to enter heaven, then I would agree with you. In that case, who are we to teach others because there way could be just as good as our way. Yes, it's best to just agree to disagree. It's been a lovely conversation though and that's what I love best about this forum.:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amirah Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 (edited) Another question... So, in your opinion, Muslims converting away from Islam is only tolerated in areas where Muslim law is not upheld? Why should Muslims not have freedom to leave their religion? I understand that this would be sad, but why should it be forbidden? Doesn't this take away people's basic rights? see this is where is gets tricky because you are basing what people's basic rights are based on what? As Muslims we believe Allah has giving us everything we need. a whole way of life including what are basic rights are (which may or may not be the same as what you consider basic rights.) i think everyone should have a choice in religion and everyone does ultimately if you don't want to be Muslim, don't be Muslim but Allah has rulings on everything and there are consequences for everything. i don't think people should go to Muslim lands or any lands and try to convert the people. Allah says in the Quran Jesus (PBUH) is just a prophet and believing anything else is a major sin. wipes out all your good deeds and dooms you to hell forever. So someone going to a Muslim country preaching or a Muslim who converted to Christianity and starts trying to spread it is problematic because this person is saying Allah is a liar and is purposely trying to drag other people to hell by putting doubt in there hearts. most people are not going to be ok with this most of the countries you mentioned that kill apostates all have people who speaks english and other languages where there is a bible available and they have the internet, smart phones, tv(Arabia even has MTV and many western channels) so its not like they don't have access and never heard of Christianity. i agree with the poster above who talked about the jewish faith. muslims have many years and tons of literature talking about Islam and why its the ONLY way. there are many books, movies,tv shows lectures etc with all the evidence and why other religions are wrong (again not speaking out against anyone's belief just making a point) so its not like you have a country full of lost people looking for guidance Edited May 2, 2011 by Amirah fixed mistakes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osmosis Mom Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 see this is where is gets tricky because you are basing what people's basic rights are based on what? As Muslims we believe Allah has giving us everything we need. a whole way of life including what are basic rights are (which may or may not be the same as what you consider basic rights.) i think everyone should have a choice in religion and everyone does ultimately if you don't want to be Muslim, don't be Muslim but Allah has rulings on everything and there are consequences for everything. i don't think people should go to Muslim lands or any lands and try to convert the people. Allah says in the Quran Jesus (PBUH) is just a prophet and believing anything else is a major sin. wipes out all your good deeds and dooms you to hell forever. So someone going to a Muslim country preaching or a Muslim who converted to Christianity and starts trying to spread it is problematic because this person is saying Allah is a liar and is purposely trying to drag other people to hell by putting doubt in there hearts. most people are not going to be ok with this most of the countries you mentioned that kill apostates all have people who speaks english and other languages where there is a bible available and they have the internet, smart phones, tv(Arabia even has MTV and many western channels) so its not like they don't have access and never heard of Christianity. i agree with the poster above who talked about the jewish faith. muslims have many years and tons of literature talking about Islam and why its the ONLY way. there are many books, movies,tv shows lectures etc with all the evidence and why other religions are wrong (again not speaking out against anyone's belief just making a point) so its not like you have a country full of lost people looking for guidance Thank you, Amirah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Is this really how you feel about being a believer in Christ? You hate it and would rather live without it if you could? Wow. I thought this thread was dead. I'm glad I came back to look. Absolutely not' date=' to answer your question. The point I was trying to make is that [i']offensive[/i] does not have to mean bad. Jesus didn't come to save those who don't think they need a doctor. (Sorry I don't have the exact verse right this minute). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in TX Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I'd just like to insert a point here, and I'm not being the least bit snarky: I know this is a tall order, but please try very hard not to associate "Muslim" governments that exist today with the actual teachings of Islam. They couldn't be farther apart. It's my belief that if leaders of Muslim countries actually educated their people in Islam and ordered their communities as our prophet, upon whom be peace, did, there would be no thought of laws keeping people who wanted to talk about other faiths out, that they would be listened to respectfully, and that they would leave knowing a little more about Islam than when they came in. The ignorant are easy to sway; the knowledgeable, not so much. For the record, there is no death penalty for apostasy in Islam. The Quran makes no such command. The only known cases of the prophet's ordering execution of an apostate were in times of war, when the people in question did not just leave the faith, but committed treason and jeopardized the lives of the entire Muslim community. There are documented reports of people choosing to leave the faith community peacefully without the prophet stopping them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.Really? How about if these things are done by an atheist? Is it still "pure and faultless"? If not, then it really isn't about looking after orphans and widows at all. It's about believing the right things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Really? How about if these things are done by an atheist? Is it still "pure and faultless"? If not, then it really isn't about looking after orphans and widows at all. It's about believing the right things. What about this part? and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world I think that nearly everyone has a different idea of what that means... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 and your position that your faith is the only way and the common Xtian position that y'all have an obligation... some even seem to feel an intrinsic right, to impose that faith on the rest of us, even if only through words, is intrinsically offensive... and we have to figure out how to work together anyway.Yes, especially the bolded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 What about this part? I think that nearly everyone has a different idea of what that means... Exactly! (Not sure that you intended to be making my point...) If "unpolluted by the world" is defined in a particular, Christian manner, then it IS about belief and NOT at all about helping the poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Exactly! (Not sure that you intended to be making my point...) Yes I was expounding on your post... not disagreeing with you.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelBee Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Not so. Some people who used to be Jews believe that Christ is the Messiah, and many people who, sorry, pretend to be Jews or would like to be Jews believe that Christ is the Messiah. People who believe that Christ is the Messiah are called Christians. I think labeling is best left to the individual to do. It is not my place to say what to call ones religion. I have Jewish friends who believe in Jesus as the son of God. Who am I to tell them that they are not calling themselves the right thing? If they believe they are Jewish, I support their right to label themselves as they wish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I'd just like to insert a point here, and I'm not being the least bit snarky: I know this is a tall order, but please try very hard not to associate "Muslim" governments that exist today with the actual teachings of Islam. They couldn't be farther apart. It's my belief that if leaders of Muslim countries actually educated their people in Islam and ordered their communities as our prophet, upon whom be peace, did, there would be no thought of laws keeping people who wanted to talk about other faiths out, that they would be listened to respectfully, and that they would leave knowing a little more about Islam than when they came in. The ignorant are easy to sway; the knowledgeable, not so much. For the record, there is no death penalty for apostasy in Islam. The Quran makes no such command. The only known cases of the prophet's ordering execution of an apostate were in times of war, when the people in question did not just leave the faith, but committed treason and jeopardized the lives of the entire Muslim community. There are documented reports of people choosing to leave the faith community peacefully without the prophet stopping them. :iagree: Thank you Amy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Curious to those who believe that "unreached people will not be going to heaven". What is your belief about what will happen to them? Do you consider them the same as "unsaved" people (people who have rejected the truth about Christ)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staceyobu Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Curious to those who believe that "unreached people will not be going to heaven". What is your belief about what will happen to them? Do you consider them the same as "unsaved" people (people who have rejected the truth about Christ)? Yes, I would consider them the same as unsaved... From Romans 10: 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.â€[f] 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news! However, I do not speak on behalf of all Christians. But, it is my understanding that those who do not trust in Christ will not enter heaven. I do believe that God can reveal himself without our help. I have heard many accounts of people believing through dreams and visions when they do not have access to the word of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Yes, I would consider them the same as unsaved... From Romans 10: 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.â€[f] 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news! However, I do not speak on behalf of all Christians. But, it is my understanding that those who do not trust in Christ will not enter heaven. I do believe that God can reveal himself without our help. I have heard many accounts of people believing through dreams and visions when they do not have access to the word of God. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In2why Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I don't have a dog in this "fight" but based on just reading all of these posts, if I were looking for religion it would be the Jewish faith or Islam. Your words about your beliefs move me, and I think that the best way to share your faith is to live a life and communicate in a way that others might want what you have. That is my largest problem with Christianity in America right now. I really and truly do not want to be associated with those that represent the Christian faith the loudest across our land, and I wonder how many more people are lost in relation to those that are saved as a result of things like that website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Curious to those who believe that "unreached people will not be going to heaven". What is your belief about what will happen to them? Do you consider them the same as "unsaved" people (people who have rejected the truth about Christ)? Thanks for asking this. What do you believe in this regard? Yes, I would consider them the same as unsaved... From Romans 10: 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.â€[f] 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news! However, I do not speak on behalf of all Christians. But, it is my understanding that those who do not trust in Christ will not enter heaven. I do believe that God can reveal himself without our help. I have heard many accounts of people believing through dreams and visions when they do not have access to the word of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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