s/o A Complete Distortion - _____ for the Christian Kid

[rwjx2khsmj]

I cannot for the life of me understand what your theological views (perceived or real) have to do with your history books and grammar/writing books. I don't need to know someone's theology to learn from them how to diagram a sentence, or how to understand the influence of the Greeks on the rest of the world. I am perfectly capable as a mother and teacher to discern what is true and what is false regarding the Scriptures.

 

I noticed at the convention this weekend how many products were labeled "Christian". It reminded me of the "organic" or "natural" product labels in the grocery store. More geared toward sales and marketing than toward content.

 

Quoting a few Bible verses does not make something "Christian". My understanding was that Christianity was an act, not a state of being. Just voicing a pet-peeve.

 

ETA: After thinking I realize there are valid arguments for Christianity as an action and a state of being. I'm just not convinced that a book, be it grammar, math or any other subject, can be labeled as such.

Edited April 5, 2011 by rwjx2khsmj

[lionfamily1999]

You may not want a Bible verse here or there, but some people do. Rod and Staff is CHOCK FULL of random Christian tidbits. Ds is using their grammar for 5th grade. Not only is it a strong grammar program, but it also reinforces much of what he learns at church and Awanas. I enjoy it. You don't? Fine, don't use it or censor it all out with a nice sharpie. Don't belittle my choices though :D I'm not saying how much I can't stand it when people go out of their way to "vent" how much they disagree with someone else's hsing choices, as though their own are so much more superior. I'm just saying that it's a valid choice, even if you don't like it.

[momofkhm]

I noticed at the convention this weekend how many products were labeled "Christian". It reminded me of the "organic" or "natural" product labels in the grocery store. More geared toward sales and marketing than toward content.

 

I have a friend who thinks the same thing but the books say ---- for the Catholic Child. They are Catholic so they are looking at Seton Hall stuff, but can't figure out why they need a "Catholic" math book.

 

That being said, there are some subjects I do want to approach from a Christian stand point - science is the biggest. I do appreciate that R&S has things in there from their point of view on the world. In all the years we've used them, there has only been once that one of my children questioned what they were saying from the Christian perspective - something about wearing plain clothes I think.

 

But I also think putting a Christian label must help those who are not Christian and don't want Christian materials in your house. If you were Jewish, would you want to use a grammar book that kept throwing Jesus in there? Or yes, it may be a just a few Bible verses here and there, but would you want the constant questions from your child about what it meant?

 

I do look for what's best for my family to use. I hope everyone else does too. Sometimes it's a Christian thing, sometimes it's not.

[Just Another Jen]

I have a friend who thinks the same thing but the books say ---- for the Catholic Child. They are Catholic so they are looking at Seton Hall stuff, but can't figure out why they need a "Catholic" math book.

 

That being said, there are some subjects I do want to approach from a Christian stand point - science is the biggest. I do appreciate that R&S has things in there from their point of view on the world. In all the years we've used them, there has only been once that one of my children questioned what they were saying from the Christian perspective - something about wearing plain clothes I think.

 

But I also think putting a Christian label must help those who are not Christian and don't want Christian materials in your house. If you were Jewish, would you want to use a grammar book that kept throwing Jesus in there? Or yes, it may be a just a few Bible verses here and there, but would you want the constant questions from your child about what it meant?

 

I do look for what's best for my family to use. I hope everyone else does too. Sometimes it's a Christian thing, sometimes it's not.

 

 

I feel the same way and I use Seton. I try and think of it as a "brand name". You know it's from Seton if it's titled ____ For Young Catholics. We homeschool for academic reasons and happen to be Catholic. So I use their products where they fit for us. I think it's great that everyone can choose from materials that are varied in origin. But, that said I wish they had titled them differently as it really bugs me.

[Heather in Neverland]

My understanding was that Christianity was an act, not a state of being. Just voicing a pet-peeve.

 

ETA: After thinking I realize there are valid arguments for Christianity as an action and a state of being. I'm just not convinced that a book, be it grammar, math or any other subject, can be labeled as such.

 

Christianity is not an act. It is a state of being. A book being labeled as "christian" usually means it is written from a christian worldview. Some christian parents want curriculum written from a christian worldview so that label in the title makes that an efficient process. ;)

[Parrothead]

 

But I also think putting a Christian label must help those who are not Christian and don't want Christian materials in your house. If you were Jewish, would you want to use a grammar book that kept throwing Jesus in there? Or yes, it may be a just a few Bible verses here and there, but would you want the constant questions from your child about what it meant?

As a Christian (Catholic) that homeschools secularly I would find it helpful to know up front what materials are Christian.

[TheAutumnOak]

I posted this on another home school board I frequent. I have some of Ken Ham's books, and I have some of SWB's and JW's books. I adore them all! I cannot for the life of me understand what your theological views (perceived or real) have to do with your history books and grammar/writing books. I don't need to know someone's theology to learn from them how to diagram a sentence, or how to understand the influence of the Greeks on the rest of the world. I am perfectly capable as a mother and teacher to discern what is true and what is false regarding the Scriptures.

 

Susan, I'm sorry you and your family are dealing with this. My fear is that the home schooling movement as a whole will be divided, and this will in turn make us vulnerable.

 

I can see how it would matter...Especially in History and Science, but it may matter in everything across the board...It really depends...Math is the only subject I can see not really affected, unless someone uses tithing examples as word problems or whatever :tongue_smilie:

I personally do not believe in evolution...I would not want a science book that taught my children that they evolved from apes...Or a history book that did the same...So, it is not necessarily a person's theology that matters, but what they choose to print in the book...And a person's theology may determine what is written in the book, it doesn't have to, but it may depending on the subject...

My problem with this entire situation involving Ken and Susan has nothing to do with what either of them believes...It is that Ken is insinuating what Susan believes and making his assumptions public...Susan should have the right to say what she believes and either be taken at her word, or individuals can decide for themselves what they think based on her actual work or actions...I feel that Ken should not turn his opinions about Susan or Peter Enns into "facts" about them, which is what I see happening...Many people are making incorrect assumptions about Susan and Peter's books based on what Ken has either said or insinuated about them...

[KnitWit]

Well, I am a Christian and while there *are* certain subjects I want to teach from a Christian worldview and ALSO teach other views, there are other subjects that I really wish could just *stand alone*. After 14 years of homeschooling, I find that many *Christian* texts use Christian rhetoric or verses gratuitously or inappropriately (to me) and I would rather it just not be there. It makes me feel like I do when I walk into a Bible bookstore and they think I'm really going to pay three bucks for a pencil because someone stamped a cross or a fish on it.

 

This is actually one thing I have really appreciated about PHP products. Honestly, there are soooo many views with the realm of Christianity, I'd really rather have the control of teaching it myself or through our church.

[Heather in WI]

I noticed at the convention this weekend how many products were labeled "Christian". It reminded me of the "organic" or "natural" product labels in the grocery store. More geared toward sales and marketing than toward content.

 

Quoting a few Bible verses does not make something "Christian".

 

I'm a conservative Christian, and I totally agree with this!

 

It seriously irks me that God's name is being used to market action figure dolls, cookbooks, light up balls, and other such nonsense.

[goldberry]

Regardless of the label, I am still going to have to investigate for myself. Although I am a Christian, I may not agree with other "labeled" Christian writings. So, the label doesn't mean much, I will still have to investigate.

 

"Secular" is almost safer, because at least you know what you are getting. "Christian" can mean a whole lot of different things!

[kchara]

Regardless of the label, I am still going to have to investigate for myself. Although I am a Christian, I may not agree with other "labeled" Christian writings. So, the label doesn't mean much, I will still have to investigate.

 

"Secular" is almost safer, because at least you know what you are getting. "Christian" can mean a whole lot of different things!

 

:iagree: I use primarily Christian curricula, but I do a LOT of editing, and my black Sharpie can be my best friend. :) I'm thinking it'll probably get more... interesting for me... as we get into Church History next year. A "Christian" label doesn't mean much to me, just that it probably has a Bible verse or two included.

[Murphy101]

I prefer to use Catholic when it fits, secular otherwise if that works, and my last choice is Protestant.

 

Why? If I can find a Catholic option that suits my needs, I like to give the few Catholic home school providers business and it might mean less editing out or supplementing work for me. I wont buy it just bc it is catholic, bc I am also looking for quality academics that meet our needs, but I'm mighty happy when I find a trifecta.;)

 

Secular materials tends to have less stuffing than Protestant, IMO, so again, less for me to edit or supplement. These tend to be my "just the facts" type of materials. (CLEP books, TTC, MCP math...)

 

If I find myself deciding a Protestant item needs to be used, it usually isn't "chock full" as a pp stated. For example, I'm leaning towards Apologia high school science for several reasons next year. It certainly does have Protestant references, but MOST of the program is just science. Just like with the secular items I buy, I can ignore the approximate 5% of content we aren't interested in if it isn't horribly grievous or the company isn't known as anti catholic. There are many where it is way higher than approximate 5% and I avoid those.

 

Personally, I dislike the term worldview in general. History and science don't change based on individual world view. How volcanes form or the periodic table works doesn't change. Cleopatra's relationship with Cesear and Mark Anthony doesn't change. The Great Depression still sucked. So personally, when I hear someone promoting a curriculum has a Christian worldview or a secular worldview I'm skeptical of the validity of the history and science. Either it is historically and scientificly accurate or it isn't.:001_huh:

[Jenny in Atl]

I'm a conservative Christian, and I totally agree with this!

 

It seriously irks me that God's name is being used to market action figure dolls, cookbooks, light up balls, and other such nonsense.

 

My favorite are the yellow pages ads (plumbers, yard services, etc).

[forty-two]

And a person's theology may determine what is written in the book, it doesn't have to, but it may depending on the subject...

IMO a person's worldview, including their theological beliefs, will inevitably color whatever they write - there is no such thing as a truly "neutral" POV. And just as there are a zillion variations of "Christian", "secular" isn't exactly monolithic, either - there are tons of different "secular" viewpoints as well, many mutually exclusive.

 

I can see how it would matter...Especially in History and Science, but it may matter in everything across the board...It really depends...Math is the only subject I can see not really affected, unless someone uses tithing examples as word problems or whatever :tongue_smilie:

Well, just as I don't believe there's a true "neutral" POV, I don't think there's a subject that's truly neutral - and that includes math ;). I've read just enough philosophy of math to realize that worldview matters there, too - and like every other subject, worldview affects all levels, including elementary, even (especially) if it's not explicitly stated. Now math has the benefit that, afaik, the dominant philosophy matches up fairly well with a Christian worldview - so there's not likely to be much in the way of fundamental differences b/w Christian and secular wrt their approach to math. But that is not remotely the same thing as math being "neutral".

 

(As a disclaimer, I really, really hate the idea that baptizing an otherwise secular text with Bible verses will magically make it "Christian" :glare:. The key, for me, is not the number of Bible verses but the underlying worldview - and some secular worldviews match my beliefs way better than some "Christian" worldviews.)

[forty-two]

Personally, I dislike the term worldview in general. History and science don't change based on individual world view. How volcanes form or the periodic table works doesn't change. Cleopatra's relationship with Cesear and Mark Anthony doesn't change. The Great Depression still sucked. So personally, when I hear someone promoting a curriculum has a Christian worldview or a secular worldview I'm skeptical of the validity of the history and science. Either it is historically and scientificly accurate or it isn't.:001_huh:

The objective historical and scientific facts don't change based on our worldview - but how we fit them together, how we make sense of them, certainly does. Taking out all the regrettably common cases of people deliberately shading and distorting the known facts to fit their point, there is still room for intellectually honest people to disagree on how and why things happened the way they did.

 

Sure, the Great Depression sucked - but *why* did it happen? Heck, even the judgement that it was a bad thing - that society would have been better off if it hadn't occurred - is based on a certain worldview.

[4everHis]

Well, I am a Christian and while there *are* certain subjects I want to teach from a Christian worldview and ALSO teach other views, there are other subjects that I really wish could just *stand alone*. After 14 years of homeschooling, I find that many *Christian* texts use Christian rhetoric or verses gratuitously or inappropriately (to me) and I would rather it just not be there. It makes me feel like I do when I walk into a Bible bookstore and they think I'm really going to pay three bucks for a pencil because someone stamped a cross or a fish on it.

 

This is actually one thing I have really appreciated about PHP products. Honestly, there are soooo many views with the realm of Christianity, I'd really rather have the control of teaching it myself or through our church.

 

This pretty much describes where I am. I've found that some of my 'Christian' texts just have a verse printed in blank spots, more as decoration. Wearing a t-shirt with a verse on it doesn't make me 'Christian.'

[OnTheBrink]

IMO a person's worldview, including their theological beliefs, will inevitably color whatever they write - there is no such thing as a truly "neutral" POV. And just as there are a zillion variations of "Christian", "secular" isn't exactly monolithic, either - there are tons of different "secular" viewpoints as well, many mutually exclusive.

 

 

I agree.

 

I always giggle a bit when someone says, "I'm not raising my children according to my religious beliefs; they can choose what to believe when they're adults" because I want so say, "Um, yes, you are raising your kids according to your beliefs. You can not separate what you believe from what you do." Kids may choose differently as adults, but the belief system they were raised in does affect them, negatively or positively.

[Just Robyn]

I agree.

 

I always giggle a bit when someone says, "I'm not raising my children according to my religious beliefs; they can choose what to believe when they're adults" because I want so say, "Um, yes, you are raising your kids according to your beliefs. You can not separate what you believe from what you do." Kids may choose differently as adults, but the belief system they were raised in does affect them, negatively or positively.

 

It's true that your children will be influenced by your beliefs. However, someone who says they are not raising their children according to their religious beliefs means the adult will not judge the child for believing differently. Also, the adult will not tell the child, "This is right and this is wrong." The adult does not sit the child down and tell them no god exists (or a particular god does exist, but not another one). The adult may say, "I do not personally believe any god exists, but there is no proof either way. You may believe what you wish." Or they may say, "I personally believe Thor is the most important god and there are a few others I worship from time to time. You may choose to worship whomever you wish or no one at all." This is, of course, in contrast with telling your child that one religion is for sure true and the others for sure aren't. It is also in contrast with telling your child something along the lines of, "In this house we believe X. You will follow that as long as you live here."

[forty-two]

I always giggle a bit when someone says, "I'm not raising my children according to my religious beliefs; they can choose what to believe when they're adults" because I want so say, "Um, yes, you are raising your kids according to your beliefs. You can not separate what you believe from what you do."

 

Heck, the belief that it is best/right to not impose any particular belief system on your children is itself rooted in a particular view of the nature of truth and the autonomy of the individual - it is *not* a neutral viewpoint.

[Mergath]

My favorite are the yellow pages ads (plumbers, yard services, etc).

 

We always seem to end up with Christian barbecue sauce. I have no idea why, but on every bottle we seem to find a little Jesus fish stamped somewhere. I find it ironic- aren't pigs supposed to be unclean animals? :tongue_smilie:

[forty-two]

It's true that your children will be influenced by your beliefs. However, someone who says they are not raising their children according to their religious beliefs means the adult will not judge the child for believing differently. Also, the adult will not tell the child, "This is right and this is wrong." The adult does not sit the child down and tell them no god exists (or a particular god does exist, but not another one). The adult may say, "I do not personally believe any god exists, but there is no proof either way. You may believe what you wish." Or they may say, "I personally believe Thor is the most important god and there are a few others I worship from time to time. You may choose to worship whomever you wish or no one at all." This is, of course, in contrast with telling your child that one religion is for sure true and the others for sure aren't. It is also in contrast with telling your child something along the lines of, "In this house we believe X. You will follow that as long as you live here."

Certainly telling one's children that "there *is* right and wrong, and this is it" is different from saying, "there is right and wrong, but I make no definitive claims about knowing which is which", both of which are different than saying, "there is no right and wrong", all of which are in turn different from saying, "I've no idea whether there is right and wrong". But each position is taking a specific stance wrt the nature of truth - *none* of those positions are "neutral".

 

How parents choose to share their specific beliefs with their children is *based* in those beliefs - it's not some separate dimension in which there are "neutral" and "non-neutral" ways to convey ones beliefs - *all* potential ways are rooted in a particular belief or set of beliefs, there is *no* neutral way. (There are coercive and non-coercive ways, but not neutral ways - whether, and to what extent, you believe it is justified to present/teach your beliefs to your children in a way that will influence them to adopt your beliefs is itself a philosophical/theological position.)

[prairiebird]

We always seem to end up with Christian barbecue sauce. I have no idea why, but on every bottle we seem to find a little Jesus fish stamped somewhere. I find it ironic- aren't pigs supposed to be unclean animals? :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I just got an ad for a Christian lawmowing service. It was so cheesy- it said, "You've been saved by Jesus, now save your grass!" and had crosses and fish all over the postcard.

 

I know what the OP is talking about. It's become a marketing tool when the same exact thing could exist for $5 less without the two bible quotes or stamp on it because there's really no difference. I think it's different when that particular faith is integrated into the subject somehow, in fact, any subject.

[Audrey]

Personally, I dislike the term worldview in general. History and science don't change based on individual world view. How volcanes form or the periodic table works doesn't change. Cleopatra's relationship with Cesear and Mark Anthony doesn't change. The Great Depression still sucked. So personally, when I hear someone promoting a curriculum has a Christian worldview or a secular worldview I'm skeptical of the validity of the history and science. Either it is historically and scientificly accurate or it isn't.:001_huh:

 

 

Generally, when I hear "worldview" I assume it is Christian material. No one else seems to use that in the marketing of their books/curricula.

 

The bolded is what it comes down to for me. I have yet to find a text, using the term "worldview" that is historically or scientifically accurate. Granted, we're only up to grade 6 (grade 7 next term), so I haven't looked into high school materials quite yet.

[Murphy101]

The objective historical and scientific facts don't change based on our worldview - but how we fit them together, how we make sense of them, certainly does. Taking out all the regrettably common cases of people deliberately shading and distorting the known facts to fit their point, there is still room for intellectually honest people to disagree on how and why things happened the way they did.

 

Sure, the Great Depression sucked - but *why* did it happen? Heck, even the judgement that it was a bad thing - that society would have been better off if it hadn't occurred - is based on a certain worldview.

 

 

But that has nothing to do with historical or scientific accuracy. Even in college classes, that is an aspect of discussion and philosophy, not a question of factual content. One can disagree only so much with the facts before it becomes an issue of delusion.

 

What one construes from the facts and what one's opinions of the facts are is entirely up for individual interpretation regardless of the curriculum chosen. That is part of discussion process.

[Impish]

I just got an ad for a Christian lawmowing service. It was so cheesy- it said, "You've been saved by Jesus, now save your grass!" and had crosses and fish all over the postcard.

 

 

:001_huh::svengo:

[Murphy101]

I just got an ad for a Christian lawmowing service. It was so cheesy- it said, "You've been saved by Jesus, now save your grass!" and had crosses and fish all over the postcard.

 

I can totally see that as a new legalize marijuana bumper sticker.:lol:

[KnitWit]

I can totally see that as a new legalize marijuana bumper sticker.:lol:

 

::snort::

[justamouse]

I think that when a parent is first starting, or changing something, they see "Christian' and think it's a safe choice. Homeschooling can be overwhelming, changing curriculum, all those choices, not to mention life that gets in the way of all that teaching.

 

It's the same when a parent -fully desiring to make a healthy choice for their children/family pick out *Organic*. Well, we know now that *organic* isn't always the most healthy, and when choosing curriculum, you still have to read it yourself.

 

It's a marketing tool.

[rwjx2khsmj]

I can totally see that as a new legalize marijuana bumper sticker.:lol:

 

:lol::lol:

[mcconnellboys]

I agree completely and thought that perhaps I was just more sensitive to the signs because of all the kerfluffle. The vendors have always done that to some extent; I don't know if they have now intensified their efforts to try to let everyone know they are on the "right" side....

[goldberry]

I just got an ad for a Christian lawmowing service. It was so cheesy- it said, "You've been saved by Jesus, now save your grass!" and had crosses and fish all over the postcard.

 

 

That's actually offensive to me. I think I would avoid a service who chose to use faith in Jesus so blatantly for self-promotion.