Note for Catholics who are using/considering CLE

[ElizaG]

Our family had been using quite a few of CLE's materials, but we will no longer be supporting the company for reasons explained in this post. I just wanted to make sure that those who didn't happen to read that thread are aware of these issues. It's something we would have appreciated knowing about last year, when we were making a decision about whether or not to go with this curriculum.

 

We started out just using their math, then liked the format so much that we added the language arts and reading. I hesitated about this at first, as we didn't know much about the company, and we have a general policy of not buying from publishers whose materials promote what we consider to be extremely anti-Catholic attitudes (e.g., BJU and Abeka). Still, I had come across several posts on various boards saying that the Mennonite publishers were "gentle and peaceful people" who would be unlikely to engage in overt bashing of other religious groups. In hindsight, I probably should have been more skeptical about this.

 

So now I'm looking for suggestions for alternative curricula for children who do well with the LightUnit format. My eldest seems to be in this category. She's very bright, but easily distracted and often forgetful. We've tried various other things, including Singapore for math, and FLL, Seton, and Kolbe for English, but without much success. For the moment, she's just using the EPGY online courses for language arts and math, but I'd rather not have her doing all her core subjects on the computer. :tongue_smilie:

 

I know there are others in the same boat. Maybe we can come up with something.

[delaney]

That's interesting. I know of a VERY Catholic homeschool family that uses Abeka exclusively. Although we are not Catholic I do make it very clear to my children that in history the church and organized religion as a whole has been at time very corrupt and just plain bad. There is no glossing over some of what has gone on in the past.

[mom4him]

Our family had been using quite a few of CLE's materials, but we will no longer be supporting the company for reasons explained in this post. I just wanted to make sure that those who didn't happen to read that thread are aware of these issues. It's something we would have appreciated knowing about last year, when we were making a decision about whether or not to go with this curriculum.

 

We started out just using their math, then liked the format so much that we added the language arts and reading. I hesitated about this at first, as we didn't know much about the company, and we have a general policy of not buying from publishers whose materials promote what we consider to be extremely anti-Catholic attitudes (e.g., BJU and Abeka). Still, I had come across several posts on various boards saying that the Mennonite publishers were "gentle and peaceful people" who would be unlikely to engage in overt bashing of other religious groups. In hindsight, I probably should have been more skeptical about this.

 

So now I'm looking for suggestions for alternative curricula for children who do well with the LightUnit format. My eldest seems to be in this category. She's very bright, but easily distracted and often forgetful. We've tried various other things, including Singapore for math, and FLL, Seton, and Kolbe for English, but without much success. For the moment, she's just using the EPGY online courses for language arts and math, but I'd rather not have her doing all her core subjects on the computer. :tongue_smilie:

 

I know there are others in the same boat. Maybe we can come up with something.

I am so sorry that is happened to you. I am not a Catholic but this kind of thing really grieves my heart. I can tell you one that you wouldn't want to use and that is ACE. I know that they have this in their curr. I used to work with it in a private school and really disliked it for this reason.

One that you might check out would be Alpha and Omega. My ds has worked with it for the last 6-8 yrs in a private school and he said that to his knowledge he has never seen the church bashing in it. It can be done either on paper or via online.

I pray that you find one that works for you.

[dakarimom5]

I was going to use CLE for math,LA and reading next year too. But after reading that thread yesterday I just can't do it. As a Catholic I can NOT give my money to people that are blatantly anti Catholic. I don't know if what I am planning on using will be useful to you but here it is...

 

Growing with Grammar, Math Mammoth, Webster's phonics and spelling, SOTW 2, Elson readers, Killgallon sentence composing, Logic Countdown, and pentime handwriting (my friend says that she thinks this is what is used in CLE but with a different cover).

 

I am using that with all of my boys (3,4 and 8 grades).

[ElizaG]

That's interesting. I know of a VERY Catholic homeschool family that uses Abeka exclusively.

This is a personal decision for each family to make according to their own convictions. Some Catholics are willing to use these materials; others are not. We are in the latter category. :)

[kristinannie]

WOW! Thanks for posting this. I was thinking about using CLE for LA starting in 1st, but those are some really nasty things to say. I understand that we had some dark periods in church history, but we definitely weren't alone in that. Plus, the church has obviously done some great things. And last time I checked, you could get the Bible in Dutch...my grandpa had one! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

Anyway, I appreciate the post!

 

 

BTW, what did you not like about Kolbe's LA? I was thinking about using them and it looked pretty good (but I haven't really seen the materials).

[12Stars]

Hi Eleanor thank you for the heads up I should have known better. No excuse on my behalf, I usually research the companies I buy from. I didn't this time, I was so excited to finally get a math curriculum that was not overwhelming our time like Saxon does.

So I will finish up what I did order and sell off the rest :blush5:.

I do agree that a lot of Catholic materials are just not set up the way I would like them to be. The choices are very limited.

I have purposely stayed away from Abeka, BJU, R&S for this reason.

So I am all :bigear: on any new ideas for math, my child who is in 5th grade and doing Saxon at the moment is very much like you described yours. I was going to switch her over to CLE.

I did start my 3rd grader on CLE though and had bought half the math curriculum for one grade and she loves it. Now I am going to have to let her finish up and we will move along to something else.

[dakarimom5]

Hi Eleanor thank you for the heads up I should have known better. No excuse on my behalf, I usually research the companies I buy from. I didn't this time, I was so excited to finally get a math curriculum that was not overwhelming our time like Saxon does.

So I will finish up what I did order and sell off the rest :blush5:.

I do agree that a lot of Catholic materials are just not set up the way I would like them to be. The choices are very limited.

I have purposely stayed away from Abeka, BJU, R&S for this reason.

So I am all :bigear: on any new ideas for math, my child who is in 5th grade and doing Saxon at the moment is very much like you described yours. I was going to switch her over to CLE.

I did start my 3rd grader on CLE though and had bought half the math curriculum for one grade and she loves it. Now I am going to have to let her finish up and we will move along to something else.

 

I'm using Rod and Staff for preschool and I haven't seen anything untoward in it,FWIW. And why is it all the Catholic homeschools use Seton in the upper grades? I just can't do it! It makes my head hurt even thinking about it.

 

ETA...I ment to say why does everyone use Saxon in the upper grades! I can't type today! Sorry.

Edited March 16, 2011 by dakarimom5
for clarity....

[ElizaG]

We'd prefer not to go secular with language arts unless we have to, as my children enjoy having some sentences that relate to our faith. Still, I have yet to find *any* Catholic LA curriculum that has ongoing review built in. I've looked at Seton English, CHC's Language of God, Kolbe's Ignatius Speaks and Writes, and Voyages/Exercises in English (both the old & new versions). They all seem to use a mastery approach, AKA "forgettery" around here.

 

Maybe our best bet is to go back to Seton or VIE, just do a small number of the exercises for each topic, and keep using EPGY for ongoing practice.

 

I'm also planning to use Mary Daly's First Whole Book of Diagrams, which is really beautiful. (How often do you get to say that about a grammar book? :) )

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

I'm using Rod and Staff for preschool and I haven't seen anything untoward in it,FWIW. And why is it all the Catholic homeschools use Seton in the upper grades? I just can't do it! It makes my head hurt even thinking about it.

I know very few people that use Seton.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

I was going to use CLE for math,LA and reading next year too. But after reading that thread yesterday I just can't do it. As a Catholic I can NOT give my money to people that are blatantly anti Catholic. I don't know if what I am planning on using will be useful to you but here it is...

 

Growing with Grammar, Math Mammoth, Webster's phonics and spelling, SOTW 2, Elson readers, Killgallon sentence composing, Logic Countdown, and pentime handwriting (my friend says that she thinks this is what is used in CLE but with a different cover).

 

I am using that with all of my boys (3,4 and 8 grades).

I checked out SOTW2 from the library, and I will not be using it as a spine for similar reasons as the OP. I might be using it as an occasional read aloud, but I'll have to sue CWH's book list as my spine.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

Our family had been using quite a few of CLE's materials, but we will no longer be supporting the company for reasons explained in this post. I just wanted to make sure that those who didn't happen to read that thread are aware of these issues. It's something we would have appreciated knowing about last year, when we were making a decision about whether or not to go with this curriculum.

 

We started out just using their math, then liked the format so much that we added the language arts and reading. I hesitated about this at first, as we didn't know much about the company, and we have a general policy of not buying from publishers whose materials promote what we consider to be extremely anti-Catholic attitudes (e.g., BJU and Abeka). Still, I had come across several posts on various boards saying that the Mennonite publishers were "gentle and peaceful people" who would be unlikely to engage in overt bashing of other religious groups. In hindsight, I probably should have been more skeptical about this.

 

So now I'm looking for suggestions for alternative curricula for children who do well with the LightUnit format. My eldest seems to be in this category. She's very bright, but easily distracted and often forgetful. We've tried various other things, including Singapore for math, and FLL, Seton, and Kolbe for English, but without much success. For the moment, she's just using the EPGY online courses for language arts and math, but I'd rather not have her doing all her core subjects on the computer. :tongue_smilie:

 

I know there are others in the same boat. Maybe we can come up with something.

Have you been to the 4real forums? Those ladies would have a lot of suggestions for you.

[dakarimom5]

I checked out SOTW2 from the library, and I will not be using it as a spine for similar reasons as the OP. I might be using it as an occasional read aloud, but I'll have to sue CWH's book list as my spine.

 

What did you see that made you not use SOTW? I have only seen SOTW 1 and I haven't noticed anything wrong thus far.

[emcap]

I checked out SOTW2 from the library, and I will not be using it as a spine for similar reasons as the OP. I might be using it as an occasional read aloud, but I'll have to sue CWH's book list as my spine.

 

May I ask what CWH is? I am so dissappointed, my kids love SOTW! I was planning on using 2 next year! Care to share anything in particular that you had a problem with? My library doesn't have SOTW.

[12Stars]

Well I cannot speak for all Catholic homeschoolers as to why they prefer Seton for LA. In our case only one of our daughters likes it and the rest did not.

I think it is a style that many parents just feel inclined to. We use it because is it rigerous and thorough.

It does tend to be self teaching in my opinion, and when you have a lot of children that helps.

 

As far as R&S I think that the younger grades are not geared towards any anti- anything.

But I did find this and it is not the first time I have read that.

[Tree House Academy]

I am not catholic, but I also do not like such bold statements made about other faiths. I know nothing of catholicism and I couldn't tell my kids the "truth" if we ran up on something like that. *This* is the reason I don't use BJU or Abeka... and I also will not be using CLE in the future (we are finishing a beta testing for reading 2 this year and there is nothing nearly so bold or nasty as what is quoted in that thread thus far, thank God!).

[12Stars]

Have you been to the 4real forums? Those ladies would have a lot of suggestions for you.

Yes, I love that forum I always feel the :grouphug:

 

As far as SOTW2 we do use that as a spine.

[txhomemom]

Thank you for the heads up on CLE. I have looked at it once or twice, but always ended up choosing something else. We are catholic, but we tend to use secular materials because most of the catholic curriculum is either textbook based (not the learning style that would work with my dd) or just seems to be outdated...but maybe I have not looked hard enough. I would love it if something like CLE was available in a secular manner even...don't think I have come across something like that either.

[Trish]

Hi Eleanor thank you for the heads up I should have known better. No excuse on my behalf, I usually research the companies I buy from. I didn't this time, I was so excited to finally get a math curriculum that was not overwhelming our time like Saxon does.

So I will finish up what I did order and sell off the rest :blush5:.

I do agree that a lot of Catholic materials are just not set up the way I would like them to be. The choices are very limited.

I have purposely stayed away from Abeka, BJU, R&S for this reason.

So I am all :bigear: on any new ideas for math, my child who is in 5th grade and doing Saxon at the moment is very much like you described yours. I was going to switch her over to CLE.

I did start my 3rd grader on CLE though and had bought half the math curriculum for one grade and she loves it. Now I am going to have to let her finish up and we will move along to something else.

 

Math Mammoth, Horizons, Singapore, Life of Fred...

[12Stars]

Math Mammoth, Horizons, Singapore, Life of Fred...

We have tried MM, Horizons, and SM. I was thinking LOF along with Key to Math. Or just staying with Saxon but moving to the second edition 5/6.

[ElizaG]

Well I cannot speak for all Catholic homeschoolers as to why they prefer Seton for LA. In our case only one of our daughters likes it and the rest did not.

I think it is a style that many parents just feel inclined to. We use it because is it rigerous and thorough.

It does tend to be self teaching in my opinion, and when you have a lot of children that helps.

I like Seton a lot. My eldest is enrolled this year, and though we're not getting a lot of use out of the materials, I have a much better opinion of their curriculum than when I was just using the workbooks. The parent guide and newsletters are realistic about the ups and downs of homeschooling, and they have many suggestions that match with things one might read on this board, e.g.:

 

- doing narrations as part of the reading lessons;

- letting the child do some of the workbook exercises orally;

- skipping unnecessary drill (even just doing 1-2 questions per page);

- combining children for history, and reading library books instead of textbooks;

- skipping the science book and just doing kitchen table experiments

- buying great heaping stacks of classic children's literature at library book sales (I had no problem following this one :D) and reading it every night

 

It's true that their workbooks and daily lesson plans are "one size fits all" and emphasize rote learning. I suspect that that's the only way they can make a curriculum that's reasonably comprehensive, easy to teach, and relatively inexpensive, which is what many parents are looking for.

 

I'm not sure the 4Real board is the place to discuss this sort of thing. They have their own philosophy that's pretty much opposed to boxed curriculum, workbooks, or anything "schooly." I can't relate to that myself, as I've always loved school. One of the perks of homeschooling for me is that I can indulge my childhood fantasies of being in the school after hours and having full access to the teachers' supply closets, book room, filing cabinets, and mimeograph machine. ;)

 

I think this is one of the reasons I found CLE so appealing. It's designed for both school and homeschool use, and it's so well organized that it basically makes each mother, even a slacker like me, into the teacher of her own one-room schoolhouse. They even sell pitch pipes, just like the one that was used by my 3rd grade teacher, who was ancient even then (she'd have to be almost 100 now, if she's still around). Seton is a bit more muddly and fiddly -- not quite as efficient and hospital-corner-ish as the CLE LightUnits -- but it's the closest thing among Catholic curricula. You can tell that this is so, because their logo is a woman wearing a bonnet. :D

[RootAnn]

As a tradition-minded Catholic, I was amused by a pamplet/newsletter I received from CLP (CLE's publisher) last month or so that had a little blurb about the Christian work they were doing in the Ukraine (I could have some of the details wrong, but bear with me). They commented that one of their groups had been doing some "seed" meetings (giving out real seeds as well as talking about seeds from the bible) and they certainly got notice as soon a poster at that Orthodox Church (where the meetings were taking place) was up with Mass Times & reminding people not to leave the (True) Church. The way it was worded was that the Orthodox people (who allowed the CLP group to meet in their hospital) were anti-Christian and anti-bible.

 

I have found out recently that some Protestant groups are very anti-Catholic and don't believe we are Christians. I'm both amused (Um, Christ started our Church - how can we NOT be CHRISTian?) and saddened by the amount people don't know about Church History.

 

We use ABeka for math & my oldest used CLE math this year. I will continue to use them, as needed. IMO, for our family, it isn't a hill I'm going to die on. I don't use their other subjects for some of the reasons already mentioned.

 

Now, on the other hand, we opt out of certain immunizations (MMR, Chickenpox) or do the shots separately if a combo (Pentacel, Quadracel) because the ones available here in the US are sometimes made from aborted fetal cells. I agree with the OP that these are decisions which are family-specific, but appreciate the spread of the word.

[ktog29]

Well that stinks. (OK, I had another word picked out there but decided it was not appropriate). Just when I had next year all planned and a total love of CLE. :glare::glare::glare: I'll have to talk this over with dh. I WILL NOT use Seton (unclear and not enough explanation for ds or me). I hate it (though I love their conferences). I WILL NOT use CHC (ds used this last year and learned NOTHING!). He's done GREAT with CLE!! So what am I going to do, people?!?!?

[cjbeach]

((sigh)) I've been having an issue with materials as well.

I've been looking to the posted curriculum of Classical schools that are Catholic for ideas:

 

I posted last week the curriculum that the Donahue Academy in AVe Maria uses. SOTW is used along with Voyages in English and Saxon Math.

 

St. Jerome Classical uses some SOTW, Shurley GRammar, and Saxon Math

[cjbeach]

Oh..... Catholic icing (blog and on FB which is where I learned of it) posted about The Catholic Schoolhouse recently, it's a Catholic version of Classical Conversations. I assume it's REALLY new. It's not in my area yet.

 

http://catholicschoolhouse.blogspot.com/p/academics.html?spref=fb

[VA6336]

CWH is Connecting With History by Sonya Romens. It's a chronological Roman Catholic unit study history program. Very easy to use with multiple age groups. We used it last year, but it, like most history curriculum, moved much too fast for my family. We've decided to break history down following St. Jerome School's outline (6 full years to cover Creation to Modern Day for elementary school years).

 

I know many, many families who use Seton. Personally, I can't stand it. Even CHC is rather "sweet" for me, but I prefer CHC materials over Seton any day.

 

The beauty of following the Classical model is that it's not WHAT you use, but HOW you use it. Some things are easier to use classically than others. :001_smile:

[VA6336]

Oh..... Catholic icing (blog and on FB which is where I learned of it) posted about The Catholic Schoolhouse recently, it's a Catholic version of Classical Conversations. I assume it's REALLY new. It's not in my area yet.

 

http://catholicschoolhouse.blogspot.com/p/academics.html?spref=fb

 

I haven't seen Catholic Schoolhouse, but I just learned about Aquinas Learning and called my friend in a frenzy: "you've got to check this out, it's Catholic CC!!" :lol:

[justamouse]

Our family had been using quite a few of CLE's materials, but we will no longer be supporting the company for reasons explained in this post. I just wanted to make sure that those who didn't happen to read that thread are aware of these issues. It's something we would have appreciated knowing about last year, when we were making a decision about whether or not to go with this curriculum.

 

We started out just using their math, then liked the format so much that we added the language arts and reading. I hesitated about this at first, as we didn't know much about the company, and we have a general policy of not buying from publishers whose materials promote what we consider to be extremely anti-Catholic attitudes (e.g., BJU and Abeka). Still, I had come across several posts on various boards saying that the Mennonite publishers were "gentle and peaceful people" who would be unlikely to engage in overt bashing of other religious groups. In hindsight, I probably should have been more skeptical about this.

 

So now I'm looking for suggestions for alternative curricula for children who do well with the LightUnit format. My eldest seems to be in this category. She's very bright, but easily distracted and often forgetful. We've tried various other things, including Singapore for math, and FLL, Seton, and Kolbe for English, but without much success. For the moment, she's just using the EPGY online courses for language arts and math, but I'd rather not have her doing all her core subjects on the computer. :tongue_smilie:

 

I know there are others in the same boat. Maybe we can come up with something.

 

 

Have you tried Mater Amabilis? It's a CM curric made for Catholics.

 

And here 4Real Forums it's a Catholic/Charlotte Mason homeschool forum.

[TheAutumnOak]

I checked out SOTW2 from the library, and I will not be using it as a spine for similar reasons as the OP. I might be using it as an occasional read aloud, but I'll have to sue CWH's book list as my spine.

 

What was offensive to you in SOTW Vol. 2?...I have not seen it yet, but am very curious...

[iwka]

CLAA Common School

[nikkid]

I haven't read all the posts but if you're looking for a Catholic classical curriculum I've heard great things about Mother of Divine Grace through Immanuel Books.

[justamouse]

Oh..... Catholic icing (blog and on FB which is where I learned of it) posted about The Catholic Schoolhouse recently, it's a Catholic version of Classical Conversations. I assume it's REALLY new. It's not in my area yet.

 

http://catholicschoolhouse.blogspot.com/p/academics.html?spref=fb

 

 

They have Mater Amabilis linked on the side. :001_smile:

[anabelneri]

We're using SOTW2 and we're Catholic, and I haven't seen anything that makes me uncomfortable yet. There are certain times in history where I'm not proud of the role the Catholic church had, but I feel that way about almost any human organization I've ever encountered. I don't want to whitewash history (though I do want it to be age appropriate), but it also should be balanced... no particular group should be singled out, and positives as well as negatives should be reported.

 

American history is giving me trouble, though. That's a mess.

 

:)

[Tutu]

I was looking into CLE Math, but I will not be purchasing this curriculum now.

 

I find that I fare better with secular materials, and add in Catholic content myself. Not that I'm not open to Catholic materials--I most certainly am. It's just that I haven't found many materials that I have connected with 100%.

 

Again, thanks for the heads up!

 

Patty

[12Stars]

I like Seton a lot. My eldest is enrolled this year, and though we're not getting a lot of use out of the materials, I have a much better opinion of their curriculum than when I was just using the workbooks. The parent guide and newsletters are realistic about the ups and downs of homeschooling, and they have many suggestions that match with things one might read on this board, e.g.:

 

- doing narrations as part of the reading lessons;

- letting the child do some of the workbook exercises orally;

- skipping unnecessary drill (even just doing 1-2 questions per page);

- combining children for history, and reading library books instead of textbooks;

- skipping the science book and just doing kitchen table experiments

- buying great heaping stacks of classic children's literature at library book sales (I had no problem following this one :D) and reading it every night

 

It's true that their workbooks and daily lesson plans are "one size fits all" and emphasize rote learning. I suspect that that's the only way they can make a curriculum that's reasonably comprehensive, easy to teach, and relatively inexpensive, which is what many parents are looking for.

 

I'm not sure the 4Real board is the place to discuss this sort of thing. They have their own philosophy that's pretty much opposed to boxed curriculum, workbooks, or anything "schooly." I can't relate to that myself, as I've always loved school. One of the perks of homeschooling for me is that I can indulge my childhood fantasies of being in the school after hours and having full access to the teachers' supply closets, book room, filing cabinets, and mimeograph machine. ;)

 

I think this is one of the reasons I found CLE so appealing. It's designed for both school and homeschool use, and it's so well organized that it basically makes each mother, even a slacker like me, into the teacher of her own one-room schoolhouse. They even sell pitch pipes, just like the one that was used by my 3rd grade teacher, who was ancient even then (she'd have to be almost 100 now, if she's still around). Seton is a bit more muddly and fiddly -- not quite as efficient and hospital-corner-ish as the CLE LightUnits -- but it's the closest thing among Catholic curricula. You can tell that this is so, because their logo is a woman wearing a bonnet. :D

 

I can very much relate to your thoughts. Yes I agree about 4real forum. Although I really love the women on there. We started off very CM, and since then we have had 2 boys and expecting our third now. I have deviated a lot from the CM method. At my own peril of course, my girls loved it. I was thinking along the lines of independence. This year has been such chaos that Seton has been the only thing that really felt good and it has been done consistently.

Anyhow I like both forums for different reasons. One to nurture me when I am having troubles of the serious variety when it comes to homeschooling. This one to look into academic curriculum. Not that 4 real does not offer that, they just have a different view, which I love none the less.

 

As a tradition-minded Catholic, I was amused by a pamplet/newsletter I received from CLP (CLE's publisher) last month or so that had a little blurb about the Christian work they were doing in the Ukraine (I could have some of the details wrong, but bear with me). They commented that one of their groups had been doing some "seed" meetings (giving out real seeds as well as talking about seeds from the bible) and they certainly got notice as soon a poster at that Orthodox Church (where the meetings were taking place) was up with Mass Times & reminding people not to leave the (True) Church. The way it was worded was that the Orthodox people (who allowed the CLP group to meet in their hospital) were anti-Christian and anti-bible.

 

I have found out recently that some Protestant groups are very anti-Catholic and don't believe we are Christians. I'm both amused (Um, Christ started our Church - how can we NOT be CHRISTian?) and saddened by the amount people don't know about Church History.

 

We use ABeka for math & my oldest used CLE math this year. I will continue to use them, as needed. IMO, for our family, it isn't a hill I'm going to die on. I don't use their other subjects for some of the reasons already mentioned.

 

Now, on the other hand, we opt out of certain immunizations (MMR, Chickenpox) or do the shots separately if a combo (Pentacel, Quadracel) because the ones available here in the US are sometimes made from aborted fetal cells. I agree with the OP that these are decisions which are family-specific, but appreciate the spread of the word.

 

I love that saying myself :lol:

I have to reconsider how this year went and the materials we used. What worked and what did not. My pregnancy brain along with countless therapies for my 5 year old have taken a hold of my thinking process. I really should just return to something like Mater Amabilis and use Seton the way that Eleanor described.

 

I am a revert to the faith, have been for 6 years now and I am not willing to compromise with anti-Catholic rhetoric. I heard it for so long, and it isone of the things kept me away from the Church for a really long time.

I don't want to undermine my family's faith by introducing pamphlets, tracts, and half truths.

This is all just sad to me.

I won't get into depth on what I think about the whole we are not Christian debate, it is a pathetic attempt to gain converts.

[G5052]

Some Protestants aren't 100% comfortable with CLE either!

 

We aren't pacifist/separatist, so I do find problems with CLE. I still use the reading and math, but I preread everything and there are stories in the reading that we skip or I make sure to discuss.

[kitten18]

Thank you for this thread.

 

I find that I fare better with secular materials, and add in Catholic content myself. Not that I'm not open to Catholic materials--I most certainly am. It's just that I haven't found many materials that I have connected with 100%.

 

:iagree: at least for now.

[ElizaG]

CLAA Common School

Why, because they start with the same first two letters? ;)

 

Iwka, you know that our family left CLAA due to serious concerns, not about their Latin and Greek lessons but about their leadership and marketing. (It's not something I'm going to get into in this thread, but I agree with much of what was expressed here, for starters.) Their "lite" version doesn't hold any additional appeal for us. Nor does it seem to resemble CLE Math and Language Arts LightUnits, which is what we're trying to replace.

 

LightUnits... oh, how I'll miss your format... the appropriate use of white space... the ease with which you were stuffed in a backpack... your neutral blueish-green color... or was it greenish-blue? But I will not miss your writers being stuck in the 16th century. Not one bit. :tongue_smilie:

[Jeanne in MN]

What was offensive to you in SOTW Vol. 2?...I have not seen it yet, but am very curious...

 

I am not finding it right now, but I have a list somewhere that someone has created and shared pointing out specific places in SOTW II that are different than what Catholics believe.

 

I am Catholic, have used SOTW all four years and am using them along with MOH as we go through the history cycle again. (We are heading into Med./Renn.) I've noticed more with MOH that I disagree with, than SOTW. :) If there is something I disagree with, I take the opportunity to teach the kids what we believe and how others see things differently.

 

I'll keep checking for the list...

[ElizaG]

BTW, when looking for more information about present-day Anabaptist attitudes toward Catholics, I came across a message board with some postings by Mennonites who were familiar with the inner workings of both Christian Light Publications (the publishers of CLE) and R&S. Here are some tidbits that I picked up.

 

1. It seems that there's quite a bit of concern in their community as to whether or not R&S and CLE are of sufficient academic quality to prepare students for college. Ironically, many of the homeschoolers among them said that they don't use these materials. Abeka seemed to be the most popular choice, but there were also some who used Sonlight, MFW, etc. I wonder if this is just a reflection of personal preference, or a "grass is always greener" syndrome -- or if they've had negative experiences with R&S or CLE, maybe during their own school days.

 

2. Starting a few years ago, CLE has been undergoing a complete overhaul; the new Sunrise editions are the result of this. It's clearly a big effort, and I got the impression that they wouldn't have been able to afford it without so many non-Mennonite homeschoolers purchasing their materials. As part of this process, they created LightUnit workbooks for the 3rd grade social studies textbook that I quoted in the other thread, but they apparently didn't see fit to revise the textbook itself. Our copy states that it was written in 1974, revised in 1996, and reprinted in 2010.

 

3. The publishers of R&S are not what we would normally think of as Amish (Old Order). They belong to a group called "Beachy Amish" or "Amish Mennonite." (Here's a historical chart of the various offshoots.) They have access to modern conveniences, and the people who write the curriculum often have college degrees. These are mainly older folks who received their education a few decades ago. Since then, from what I've gathered, their movement has swung toward greater conservatism, and it's now unusual for young people to attend college. (This seems similar to what's taken place in some Orthodox Jewish and Muslim communities.) There's concern for what will happen to the quality of R&S materials after the older folks are gone.

 

Just wanted to put that out there. I guess every group has its own curriculum angst ;), which often reflects broader concerns about the group's values and their interactions with society in general.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Eleanor
added link to Mennonite historical chart

[....]

I've used CLE's math, language arts and reading. So far, I haven't seen anything creepy. HOWEVER, there was a lady on the forums last year who warned us to stay away from their social studies and science. I guess that was why. At this point, I've never even looked at their social studies.

 

Sorry that happened to you. :grouphug:

[Tina D]

This is not my review, and I can't find who wrote it, sorry! I love SOTW, when I get to passages such as some of the ones below, I make note of it and we discuss it.

 

 

I’ve been prereading Story of the World Volume II, since this has been recently added to

SL 6. There are several areas that merit some discussion, I think. This book is secular, for the most part, but I think it takes a more protestant perspective on the reformation, as is common in secular books. Each family will have to determine if the level of anti Catholicism in this book is tolerable with editing and discussion, or not. I think there is some room for friendly disagreement on this, since the level Sonlight has assigned it to is 6th grade and up, but it will definitely need either some editing or some discussion, depending on your child’s place in his faith journey and age. I do not recommend allowing your child to read this on his/her own, without discussion. I tried to quote for the more problematic areas or at least give one a head’s up when Catholicism is referred to.

 

Page 35—re: the pope, the quote is: “Many people believed that God had given him the job of taking care of Christians all over the world.

 

Page 54-55 Discussion of the Western belief that the Pope is the universal leader of the Church versus the Eastern perspective of councilor leadership.

 

Page 57—The story of St. Nicholas is told, but I find it odd that she failed to mention that Nicholas went on to become the Bishop of Myra, was jailed for his faith, etc. Instead, all she recounts is the legend of him anonymously paying dowries for 3 poor girls so that they could be married. There are lots of Catholic picture stories and even a video that recount the rest of the story, that could be easily added in for a fuller picture.

 

Page 154—A story of William the Conqueror is recounted…it is about how he hid relics under a table and tricked someone into swearing to give power to him “over the relics†so that he would be stuck. The definition of relics is given as follows:

 

“saints remains, which were thought to have miraculous powers.â€

 

Page 178—The definition of pilgrim given is as follows:

 

“people who made trips to show their devotion to God, and sometimes to ask forgiveness for their sins.â€

 

Page 179—Regarding Constantinople’s request for a crusade, the quote is as follows:

 

“He promised the knights that they would get rewards in heaven for driving back the Islamic invasion. And he even promised them that anyone who joined the army would have their sins forgiven! (emphasis in text).â€

 

Page 182-183--Story of one particular crusade that is not particularly flattering of the crusaders...The author does explain that the crusaders were thirsty and exhausted, but then recounts how they killed everyone they could find. One might want to add in some Catholic perspective on this delicate subject.

 

On page 186—the corresponding Islamic recapture of Jerusalem is told and the Islamic leader is perceived as much more merciful than the Christian crusaders.

 

Page 275-276—Recounts the story where Ferdinand and Isabella forced all Jews to leave Granada when they retook the Islamic nation for Spain and for Catholicism.

 

Page 331—The introduction of Luther into history:

 

“…but Martin Luther (ML…my shorthand) decided to join a monastery instead. As a monk, he had to beg for food and money. He spent long hours praying and studying the Bible. ML chose this difficult, demanding life because he was afraid that God would punish him for his sins unless he worked day and night to make God happy. He wrote that he was ‘walled around with the terror and agony’ of God’s wrath.

 

ML did everything that the church told him he should do. He went on pilgrimage to Rome. He prayed in front of the relics of saints. He crawled on his hands and knees, reciting the Lord’s prayer, to show how sorry he was for his sins. But he was still afraid that God would be displeased with him.

 

…(he said to himself)’The book of Romans doesn’t tell me that I have to earn God’s love by working hard to be good. No, no! It says that God gives me the power to believe in him, and the power to be good, because he already loves me!’ This changed ML’s way of thinking about God! (emphasis in text)â€

 

And then an analogy is made where a child has 2 aunts and one is picky and expects perfection and is cruel toward the child who fails to be clean enough. The other is kind and welcomes the child even with a little bit of mud. And then the question is posed,

 

 

“Which aunt would you rather go see? The first aunt is a little bit like the way ML used to think of God. The second aunt is more like the way he learned to think about God after reading Romans.â€

 

It continues a few pp’s down:

 

“The Catholic church had begun to teach that God would only forgive sins if the sinners did penance, special deeds (like giving money to the poor or confessing their sins in public) to show how sorry they were. But the Church also taught that sinners could get out of doing penance by paying a certain amount of money to the Church. This practice was called selling indulgences.

 

Martin Luther believed that indulgences were wrong. He preached that God would forgive any sinner who believed in Jesus Christ, not just those who did penances or bought indulgences.

[Tina D]

Page 341-342—The definition of a Renaissance Man (something described positively in the text) is explained as follows:

 

“When Prince Henry the Navigator sent ships south to see the southern waters, rather than just accepting the old stories about boiling seas, he was thinking like a Renaissance man. When Columbus insisted on going to India by sailing West, instead of trying to go around Africa like everyone else, he was acting like a Renaissance man. When Martin Luther told the people of Wittenberg that they should look at the Bible for themselves, instead of believing everything that the Church told them, he was talking like a Renaissance man.†She goes on to link Renaissance thought with the great Scientific Method!! (emphasis mine, on this one)

 

344—On trusting priests versus reading the Bible for oneself (in the Gutenberg press section)

 

“Suppose that you are a Christian who wants to find out what the Bible says about right and wrong. But you don’t have a Bible. There’s a huge Bible chained to the pulpit of the church in your village, but it’s written in a language you can’t read. So you ask your priest what the Bible says. He doesn’t read very well either, so he tells you what his priest told him years ago when he asked the same question. He might be right—or he might be wrong.

 

That’s what life was like in Europe during the Middle Ages. Because there were so few books, scientists didn’t make very many new discoveries. Historians couldn’t find out much about the past. Doctors knew very little about the human body. And Christians had to found out what the Bible said by asking their priests. They had to trust their priests to give them the right information! (emphasis in text)â€

 

346—Vernacular Bibles—The paragraph ends with “And Christians could read their own Bibles written in their own languages.†My understanding is that there were Catholic vernacular bibles at the time, but I can’t remember where I read it. Sorry about that.

 

Pages357-358—Copernicus and the Catholic Church

 

Pages360-361—Galileo and the Catholic Church

 

Page 366—Mary Queen of Scots unpopular in England because she outlawed Protestantism and tried to restore Catholicism in England

 

Page367-368—“Good Queen Bess†The basic gist is that she restored Protestantism and didn’t allow Mass to be said, but other than that, was a good queen and allowed Catholics to remain Catholic. Catholics were persecuted under Elizabeth I.

 

Page403—King Philip of Spain and the defeat of the Spanish Armada. He is mentioned as wanting to return Catholicism to England as one of his goals, but its not done in a distasteful way.

 

Susan Wise Bauer chose to avoid the Spanish Inquisition entirely, as she wrote her book for first through third graders and considered it too violent.

[Mom0012]

BTW, when looking for more information about present-day Anabaptist attitudes toward Catholics, I came across a message board with some postings by Mennonites who were familiar with the inner workings of both Christian Light Publications (the publishers of CLE) and R&S. Here are some tidbits that I picked up.

 

1. It seems that there's quite a bit of concern in their community as to whether or not R&S and CLE are of sufficient academic quality to prepare students for college. Ironically, many of the homeschoolers among them said that they don't use these materials. Abeka seemed to be the most popular choice, but there were also some who used Sonlight, MFW, etc. I wonder if this is just a reflection of personal preference, or a "grass is always greener" syndrome -- or if they've had negative experiences with R&S or CLE, maybe during their own school days.

 

2. Starting a few years ago, CLE has been undergoing a complete overhaul; the new Sunrise editions are the result of this. It's clearly a big effort, and I got the impression that they wouldn't have been able to afford it without so many non-Mennonite homeschoolers purchasing their materials. As part of this process, they created LightUnit workbooks for the 3rd grade social studies textbook that I quoted in the other thread, but they apparently didn't see fit to revise the textbook itself. Our copy states that it was written in 1974, revised in 1996, and reprinted in 2010.

 

3. The publishers of R&S are not what we would normally think of as Amish (Old Order). They belong to a group called "Beachy Amish" or "Amish Mennonite." (Here's a historical chart of the various offshoots.) They have access to modern conveniences, and the people who write the curriculum often have college degrees. These are mainly older folks who received their education a few decades ago. Since then, from what I've gathered, their movement has swung toward greater conservatism, and it's now unusual for young people to attend college. (This seems similar to what's taken place in some Orthodox Jewish and Muslim communities.) There's concern for what will happen to the quality of R&S materials after the older folks are gone.

 

Just wanted to put that out there. I guess every group has its own curriculum angst ;), which often reflects broader concerns about the group's values and their interactions with society in general.

 

I think if you use CLE for every subject, it might not be college prep material, but the math and LA certainly are and I have yet to find anything offensive in those materials and doubt that I will. I have heard people mention that some of the reading program wasn't right for their family, so if I ever do want to use that, I would preread. I can't imagine using the science, social studies, etc. unless I was desperate because there are so many more interesting approaches to those subjects.

 

Anyway, I was raised Catholic and I have seen many materials that do some Catholic bashing and I just use that as an opportunity to explain different viewpoints to my children. I'm not going to drop a wonderful program that is a perfect fit for my family just because there are some things I don't like in the materials I'm not even using. I doubt I'd be able to find anything I could use in that case.

 

If I really wanted to make sure I wasn't supporting the company, I'd buy the materials used.

 

Lisa

Edited March 16, 2011 by LisaTheresa

[kristinannie]

Page 341-342—The definition of a Renaissance Man (something described positively in the text) is explained as follows:

 

“When Prince Henry the Navigator sent ships south to see the southern waters, rather than just accepting the old stories about boiling seas, he was thinking like a Renaissance man. When Columbus insisted on going to India by sailing West, instead of trying to go around Africa like everyone else, he was acting like a Renaissance man. When Martin Luther told the people of Wittenberg that they should look at the Bible for themselves, instead of believing everything that the Church told them, he was talking like a Renaissance man.†She goes on to link Renaissance thought with the great Scientific Method!! (emphasis mine, on this one)

 

344—On trusting priests versus reading the Bible for oneself (in the Gutenberg press section)

 

“Suppose that you are a Christian who wants to find out what the Bible says about right and wrong. But you don’t have a Bible. There’s a huge Bible chained to the pulpit of the church in your village, but it’s written in a language you can’t read. So you ask your priest what the Bible says. He doesn’t read very well either, so he tells you what his priest told him years ago when he asked the same question. He might be right—or he might be wrong.

 

That’s what life was like in Europe during the Middle Ages. Because there were so few books, scientists didn’t make very many new discoveries. Historians couldn’t find out much about the past. Doctors knew very little about the human body. And Christians had to found out what the Bible said by asking their priests. They had to trust their priests to give them the right information! (emphasis in text)â€

 

346—Vernacular Bibles—The paragraph ends with “And Christians could read their own Bibles written in their own languages.†My understanding is that there were Catholic vernacular bibles at the time, but I can’t remember where I read it. Sorry about that.

 

Pages357-358—Copernicus and the Catholic Church

 

Pages360-361—Galileo and the Catholic Church

 

Page 366—Mary Queen of Scots unpopular in England because she outlawed Protestantism and tried to restore Catholicism in England

 

Page367-368—“Good Queen Bess†The basic gist is that she restored Protestantism and didn’t allow Mass to be said, but other than that, was a good queen and allowed Catholics to remain Catholic. Catholics were persecuted under Elizabeth I.

 

Page403—King Philip of Spain and the defeat of the Spanish Armada. He is mentioned as wanting to return Catholicism to England as one of his goals, but its not done in a distasteful way.

 

Susan Wise Bauer chose to avoid the Spanish Inquisition entirely, as she wrote her book for first through third graders and considered it too violent.

 

 

 

Thanks for posting this. I definitely don't agree with everything the Catholic church has ever done, but I am not sure I want to have to explain all of that to a second grader. I had planned on using SOTW for 1-4, but now I don't know. I want my kids to know the whole story of the church eventually, even the bad stuff. However, I would like him to have a solid grounding in our faith before we go there. Now I better start looking for something else....UGH. I know there have to be tons of Catholic homeschoolers. Why can't they put out some better materials??????? I am planning on enrolling with Kolbe for the transcript and using some of their materials, but I am not using their history, science or math and those are three biggies.

[dakarimom5]

I have loved SOTW 1 this year. But next year I will have a 3rd and 4th grader at home and that might be a little too "heavy" for them. I think I will skip to SOTW 3. My uncle is a priest and was very excited about me hs. His comment," More Catholics that can't afford Catholic school are choosing to homeschool and I think it is wonderful." If it is so wonderful why are the Catholic resourses A)more expensive and B) not as good a quality as secular curricula?

 

I would like to know if anyone has seen both CHC Little stories and AAR. I'm trying to decide what to use for my kindergartener.

[RootAnn]

For awhile, I started a list (like the one the PP posted) about SOTW 2 & 3 topics/statements of which I didn't like the "slant," but realized others had made similar lists & didn't continue.

 

I still use/used SOTW 2 & 3 as they are good on the whole. I don't use the CD/audio because I edit on the fly as I read outloud and I skipp entire sections and/or replaced them with other materials on the same topic. I used SOTW 2 with a 1st & 3rd grader & am using SOTW 3 with a 2nd & 4th grader. You don't have to go into all the explanations at this age. Anything you aren't comfy with, skip. This is just an overview at this age. You'll cover this stuff again another time through history & they will be older to ask you more uncomfortable questions. ;-)

 

SOTW 2: Chapter 34, the first section is called "Martin Luther's List." I covered the topic in a few sentences from another source. I greatly expanded the second section called "Henry VIII's Problem" as there is a lot of good Catholic and history in this story. I know I read several outside books on this time in history (for my own knowledge) and we covered some saints in here as well.

 

I also skipped the second part of Chapter 38 called "Good Queen Bess." I added quite a bit on the FIRST crowned queen of England (Mary) and we read some books which took place during the Elizabethan reign. We talked about good & bad things, contrasts & comparisons between the two reigns (Mary/Elizabeth), and how religion and politics were so intertwined during that timeframe as to make one a traitor to one's country simply if one was trying to faithfully follow one's faith (both on the Protestant & Catholic sides).

 

I remember choosing to substitute for the first three chapters of SOTW 3. I also skipped Chapter 9, covering the 30 yrs war in a completely different fashion than SWB.

 

Most of the rest seemed okay with only minor on-the-fly editing and adding in of saints from the period.

Edited March 16, 2011 by RootAnn
added ages of my kids when we did both books

[mommymilkies]

I was raised Jewish and Catholic. I do not agree with everything in SOTW, but I will say I agree about the statement on Mary Stuart. However, Elizabeth did not personally persecute Catholics. Her hand was forced, mostly because of Mary and the Duke of Norfolk's antics. She personally was partial to the old tradition. Walsingham, Leicester, and Cecil can truthfully take most of the blame for anti-Catholic policy. ;) in fact, most English Catholics supported Elizabeth and this is where Mary Stuart's plan ultimately failed. There were not 39,000 Catholic supporters of her, like she believed. I'm not saying Elizabeth was perfect, but historical record shows evidence against her being as persecutory of Catholics as Mary was of Protestants.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I haven't read all the posts but if you're looking for a Catholic classical curriculum I've heard great things about Mother of Divine Grace through Immanuel Books.

 

I've really enjoyed browsing the Emmanuel Books catalog. I always come away with good ideas.

[Crimson Wife]

why are the Catholic resourses A)more expensive and B) not as good a quality as secular curricula?

 

I haven't found Catholic materials to be more expensive in general, but I do agree about the quality being rather hit-or-miss. :(