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We've just realised that the various issues which we have with DS#2 all boil down to a lack of respect for us.

He has absolutely no problem with saying No to something which we ask of him and questioning what we say to him.

For instance today he point blank refused to do maths and then argued that he did not have to be on kitchen duty due to a technicality in the rules and when we disagreed, suggested we were accusing him of lying. He will not clean his room (it's impossible to walk in the door) and often will not do his school work.

This attitude is rubbing off on his little sister who also has no problem saying no. I think that in sorting it out in DS, it will come right with DD.

 

So having come to the conclusion that the issue is not infact about the work, or the room or the dishes, we have no idea what to do about it. DS#1 was never like this.

 

Time out does not work, with either of them, they will happily be in their room for hours listening to audio books or reading. My sense is to remove all priviledges/possessions and allow him to earn them back, but he is a very stubborn kid, that could quite easily backfire.

 

What would you do?

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My kids are younger, but my middle is really, really stubborn and already we have these types of issues. I've had to find what motivates him and institute a reward system (we give points each day, which can later be cashed in for money). Rewards have been so much more pleasant and effective than any punishment could be. With rewards I get to tell him regularly how awesome of a job he's doing; with punishment I have to constantly hound and fight with him. The first one is a pleasure for all of us and the second is a like a cloud hanging over the house.

 

Maybe it would work to find ways to reward you son for doing what you ask? I know the idea is that he should do it *because* you asked but honestly, I think some kids simply aren't wired that way (or are wired to fight against that very type of control in particular) and I figure it's more important for it to work than for it to work through a specific approach.

 

Good luck!

 

Melanie (always having my parenting philosophy turned on its head by these kooky kids!)

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I must admit the whole "respect your parents just because they are your parents" idea hasn't gone down too well here, though I get lots of points for trying.

You can demand/force obedience and compliance but it often backfires and it definitely doesn't automatically bring about a sense of respect. Fear maybe, resentment most likely. Some kids are just wired like that and one of mine is.

I did a weekend workshop recently called Non Violent Communication and it is giving me a fresh way of communicating with my teens. It may not resonate with you but it is actually working here.

For example- in the past, they would leave their dirty dishes in the loungeroom. I would see them, nag, get upset, and eventually they would take them to the kitchen. Rinse, repeat- for years. DH has been trying to get the kids to automatically do their chores for years- and he really believes in making kids respect him. But they didn't. They still "forgot" whenever they thought they could get away with it.

My approach has changed- I forget sometimes but I am trying something new. And it feels better on my heart.

I am asking. Nicely. I am asking "Would you be wiling to cleanup this area before dinner? I am feeling annoyed with the mess here because I really appreciate a tidy loungeroom. " So far, the answer has always been "yeah, sure" and they do it.

But they do have a choice. They can say no. If they sense they cant say no and that my "ask" is really a "demand", which is very different, I am careful to not jump into "but you have to or else". Then I can ask them if they will talk to me about why they don't want to- and we talk. Communication happens.

Another example is my son now at school. I do NOT want to be the one standing over him telling him to do his work, to study, etc. He has asked for my help, but he gets upset when he cant do something and often wants to give up. Instead of telling him he *has* to finish it, I ask him what he would like to do about it and leave it up to him. I don't want to be his motivation- he needs to find it in himself now. I will support him 100% though.

I realised how unkindly I had learned to talk to my kids when they weren't doing what I wanted them to do, in the name of parental authority and demanding respect. And I am changing. I have shared this with them and they understand- it doesn't mean they never do the dishes or pick up after themselves or do what needs to be done- but I am not riding them about it anymore- they have a choice, just like I do. I am asking. Nicely. Believe me, this is a new concept to me as I thought you had to "make" a child do things. Maybe you do sometimes -I don't know and I am dealing with teens.

SO my suggestion is just to examine what that means- "lack of respect for parental authority"- and whether its an effective strategy- whether its working or whether the cost of upping the consequences is really worth it- or whether it will just hurt everyone more.

With a fairly compliant kid, this issue isn't really an issue. They just obey mostly- I have one of those too. But with a kid that wont obey- I think its worth considering our own concepts around it all and be open to a different approach, because their needs are different.

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Mine are still younger, but if you don't work you don't eat. I've given a piece of bread to one of mine for lunch, because he refused to do his chores (get room cleaned mostly). And anything on the floor at night after he has been told to clean his room disappears. When my kids have their own place they can live in a pig sty.

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I agree that most boys get into this at age 11. It is partly a "respect parental authority thing" but that is not the core of it. The core of it is likely : "I am growing up and I will be an adult and then I will be responsible for my own decisions". If you think of it in this way as opposed to opposition to your authority, you'll come up with better approaches. If you up the ante with getting stronger in your authority, he'll up the ante, too.

 

So think through it as if he's a young man needing to figure out how to be responsible for himself and is going about letting you know this by his current attitude. Rather than increase the importance of your authority, relate things to his future. As much as possible, let dh deal with things. (There is a whole other dimension of boy-separating-from-mom aspect to it.) I'm not saying that he shouldn't respect you--he should. But if *you* can make this change in your approach, the respect piece will be easier to approach.

 

Think of consequences that don't require a power struggle. For instance, I have 4 boys, ages 12-18. They all have a job to do after supper to keep the kitchen clean. My previous choices were: wake up to a messy kitchen or spend the previous night exerting all kinds of energy to get them to do it. Finally, I cleaned it up perfectly myself and told them that I had been asking too much of them and that we were going to be eating non-messy food (cold cheese sandwiches, salads, etc.--absolutely nothing that dirtied a pot, could drip on the table, etc.) . I cheerfully took care of whatever stray glass etc, got left out for the next couple days. The deal was once I hadn't had to clean up anything for a day, they could vote on a new slightly messy food to bring back. And I had the option to cook a full dinner at any time to see if they might be ready. It was lovely. No fights, no power struggles, and now they are doing the kitchen. If they revert, we'll go back to non-messy, easy-to-clean-up meals. That may not work in your family, but it's the kind of thing you're after.

 

ETA: there are tons of threads on 11 year old boys. You might want to do a search for some.

Edited by Laurie4b
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Just yesterday I told my two boys very simply "It hurts me when you treat me disrespectfully." And that was all it took. From their viewpoint they were just having fun with me, but they stopped when they heard my pov.

 

I've told dd "It hurts YOU when you are disrespectful to me." That worked too.

 

Different kids, different approaches, same result. Good thing, otherwise I was going to duct tape them to the wall, and they are all bigger than me. Not sure I could pull it off.

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Ds the elder actually told me the other day that he's "practically an adult" and is "tired of being treated like a child." Check the sig, he's 9 :glare: We've had these issues for awhile now, it's been pretty bewildering to me, till he told me he's grown up... We talked about how adults should behave, we've talked about how disrespectful and rude he's been, we've talked about the adult consequences of such actions (frankly, if he was over 18 I wouldn't put up with this carp under my own roof, iow go get an apartment).

 

We also talked about how he has no real understanding of long-term consequences, so he has to allow Dad and I to think about those things for him for a while yet. IOW, we know better than him and he's stuck deferring to us until such a time as he is matured enough to understand these things for himself.

 

Then, we went back to, "I refuse to acknowledge your conversation if you cannot be considerate and polite." If the deluge of worthless rude words continues ds gets to sit in his room and talk to himself.

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I agree that most boys get into this at age 11. It is partly a "respect parental authority thing" but that is not the core of it. The core of it is likely : "I am growing up and I will be an adult and then I will be responsible for my own decisions". If you think of it in this way as opposed to opposition to your authority, you'll come up with better approaches. If you up the ante with getting stronger in your authority, he'll up the ante, too.

 

So think through it as if he's a young man needing to figure out how to be responsible for himself and is going about letting you know this by his current attitude. Rather than increase the importance of your authority, relate things to his future. As much as possible, let dh deal with things. (There is a whole other dimension of boy-separating-from-mom aspect to it.) I'm not saying that he shouldn't respect you--he should. But if *you* can make this change in your approach, the respect piece will be easier to approach.

 

Think of consequences that don't require a power struggle. For instance, I have 4 boys, ages 12-18. They all have a job to do after supper to keep the kitchen clean. My previous choices were: wake up to a messy kitchen or spend the previous night exerting all kinds of energy to get them to do it. Finally, I cleaned it up perfectly myself and told them that I had been asking too much of them and that we were going to be eating non-messy food (cold cheese sandwiches, salads, etc.--absolutely nothing that dirtied a pot, could drip on the table, etc.) . I cheerfully took care of whatever stray glass etc, got left out for the next couple days. The deal was once I hadn't had to clean up anything for a day, they could vote on a new slightly messy food to bring back. And I had the option to cook a full dinner at any time to see if they might be ready. It was lovely. No fights, no power struggles, and now they are doing the kitchen. If they revert, we'll go back to non-messy, easy-to-clean-up meals. That may not work in your family, but it's the kind of thing you're after.

 

ETA: there are tons of threads on 11 year old boys. You might want to do a search for some.

 

I like your kitchen idea. It sounds like a nice, cheerful way to deal with it instead of working yourself up into a fit! Our boys have been pretty disrespectful to me lately but still respect dh so that is helpful. Disrespect (ignoring us, not doing school work, etc) around here earns you some manual labor. In our work we do a lot of landscaping so there is always a hole that needs to be dug. Dh will tell them that since they don't want to do their school work, they can get used to digging holes for a living. Until the work is done, there is no TV, no computer, no food, nothing. That straightens out their attitude very quickly. Our boys have always been physically active and sometimes it is hard to sit still. But they still have to do their school work.

 

Dh tends to out talk them too. :lol: After the work is done, he will talk and talk to them. He explains how authority works (we are always under authority even when we are independent adults), how their choices will affect them in the future. He is always asking them to think about what kind of men they want to become, if they made the same decisions with a wife and children depending them what the outcome would be. He just lays it all out there. They probably don't take it all in now but we like to impress the importance of responsibility on them. I think the combination of consequences plus discussion helps.

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get thee to a bookstore or amazon and look at some books by Kevin Leman. I just finished reading "Bringing Kids up w/out Tearing them Down" and it was excellent.

 

Also his "Making Kids mind without Losing Yours." (I think that is the title) is very good about nuts and bolts of getting the kids to do what you'd like them to do.

 

He advocates reality discipline...making the kid get natural consequences for messing up.

 

 

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/parenting/effective_biblical_discipline/why_kids_misbehave/the_wonders_of_reality_discipline.aspx

 

Here are some radio broadcasts by the author, tallking about Reality Discipline

 

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/popups/media_player.aspx?MediaId={9FB9BE9C-7975-4FB1-93E6-6A7B6D13F38D}

 

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/popups/media_player.aspx?MediaId={09F6215D-11CD-4122-881C-415FCFFE9AFA}

 

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/popups/media_player.aspx?MediaId={CB46B68E-A575-420F-8D35-93AC0F1E594C}

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Peela summed up pretty well what we do. I would never not feed my kids for not helping. If I don't feel like sweeping one night, I certainly wouldn't not let myself eat dinner! I think a lot of it is attitude. I remember being a kid. I was/am very stubborn. If I don't respect someone, why would I do what they say? My dh has a tendency to demand things and micromanage. Not that I don't ever lose my temper, but I have found asking, talking about my feelings, and being flexible has it's advantages. My kids never happily or willingly do what dh asks because of how he demands, but always help me if I ask. Heck, my ds got up early to help me take recycling out this a.m. because I asked nicely.

Edited by mommymilkies
Autocorrect!
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Wow, this is such a timely thread for me. Ds, age 10, is very similar and ds, age 8, is following along.

 

I'm really glad to read all of this, it has given me a lot to think about. I like what Peela had to say.

 

To add my own .02 cents. One thing that I have noticed in myself, is that I have become so burned out on all of this behaviour, that often my own reaction is out of line. I don't even always realize this or am even aware of what is reasonable from them or not. So, today I made an extra effort to be very calm and patient in dealing with some of these issues. I handled it much better. Otoh, I also have made sure to get a break from them (being here:)). I felt my patience dwindling and explained (many times over) that I needed a break so I could continue to be more kind and patient.

 

I think this, combined with some of what I have read on this thread will really help.

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Thanks all for your posts. Interesting you all said the same thing. This particular kid is physically a 13yo, his bone age etc is all 2 years advanced. So hormonally, I'm dealing with a teen. I think that what you guys are saying makes a lot of sense.

I sat him down this am and discussed the kitchen calmly and he went off and did it willingly. We have a really good family system in place with the kitchen, so that was easy.

Now I have to tackle the school work and bedroom.

 

I do wonder quite honestly how folks successfully homeschool teenaged boys, they are such hard work! J got quite resistant to working and is now back at school where he is so much more happier and engaged in his work. I can see the same happening to C unless we can get him more self motivated. I just can't have the home being a battleground each day over maths and english.

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I do wonder quite honestly how folks successfully homeschool teenaged boys, they are such hard work! J got quite resistant to working and is now back at school where he is so much more happier and engaged in his work. I can see the same happening to C unless we can get him more self motivated. I just can't have the home being a battleground each day over maths and english.

 

I wonder the same, Sandra.

In retrospect, I wish I had found a way to back off and encourage the self motivation earlier- with both kids. The last year before they have both gone off out of the home, was very difficult for me but I was trying so hard, really pushing and getting exasperated by the resistance, every day. In other words, I kept upping the consequences, the force, and getting more resistance. I wish I had tried something different.

It has worked to send them off. But I wish I had found a better way while they were still here.

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I wonder the same, Sandra.

In retrospect, I wish I had found a way to back off and encourage the self motivation earlier- with both kids. The last year before they have both gone off out of the home, was very difficult for me but I was trying so hard, really pushing and getting exasperated by the resistance, every day. In other words, I kept upping the consequences, the force, and getting more resistance. I wish I had tried something different.

It has worked to send them off. But I wish I had found a better way while they were still here.

The thing with J was that he had really high aims, an engineering degree and to do it he needed certain things. So the aims were his, the work was chosen in conjunction with him understanding what he needed for where he wanted to go, and still he wouldn't do it. I even handed full responsibility to him and he did absolutely nothing for 4 months! He's like a different kid at school, he has gone from slothful to getting up at 5am! to train with the cross country team, from refusing work to cheerfully doing hours of homework, he loves school, LOVES it. I do think it's very much because of the actual school he is at, but still. I am mystified as to how I could have done it differently to have him actually engaged at home. I really think he needed school, and possibly we should have looked at it sooner.

 

Anyway, that's a bit off track, but yeah, seeing that experience makes me really doubt that I can successfully homeschool C though the teen years. I'll give it a crack, but I'll be waving the white flag a lot earlier and more willingly with him.

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Just wanted to add a couple of things. My dh takes the boys out jogging with him. The 16 yo can out run him and the 8yo can hardly keep up. But 2-4 miles of jogging a day tends to chill kids out. My ds 16 has done some hay baling for a friend of ours. He comes home full up of sun, blistered and happy as a clam- and Mr. Mellow for 1/2 a week. Same for splitting wood.

 

Physical exercise and working hard is a good antidote for self preoccupation and disrespect.

My dh (psychologist) says if the parent is working harder than the kid than somethings wrong. Make sure THEY are working (emotionally, socially, physcially).

Also, a good book: Your Kids Are Your Own Fault. Wingett's a gutter mouth but a straight shooter. I also really like Shalom in the Home by Rabbi Boteach (who has a TLC show of same name)

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Just wanted to add a couple of things. My dh takes the boys out jogging with him. The 16 yo can out run him and the 8yo can hardly keep up. But 2-4 miles of jogging a day tends to chill kids out. My ds 16 has done some hay baling for a friend of ours. He comes home full up of sun, blistered and happy as a clam- and Mr. Mellow for 1/2 a week. Same for splitting wood.

 

 

 

DH and were just discussing how "back in the day" kids had a lot of chores and physical tasks that had to be done early in the morning before school. I'm sure it made seat work a lot easier - sitting down to the 3Rs for a few hours was probably a nice break and could be approached with a clear mind.

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Just wanted to add a couple of things. My dh takes the boys out jogging with him. The 16 yo can out run him and the 8yo can hardly keep up. But 2-4 miles of jogging a day tends to chill kids out. My ds 16 has done some hay baling for a friend of ours. He comes home full up of sun, blistered and happy as a clam- and Mr. Mellow for 1/2 a week. Same for splitting wood.

 

Physical exercise and working hard is a good antidote for self preoccupation and disrespect.

Hmmm, I think you could be onto something there.

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you have got to be kidding me?! Who is the parent and who is the child? I would never let my kids go without eating, but I can make it not so pleasant. I am required to provide nothing to my kids except Shelter, food, clothing and medical attention. If I got that attitude out of any of my kids, I would strip down their room to nothing but a mattress, pillow, blanket, and 3 changes of clothes I pick up from Goodwill. Gone would be the TV, Stereo, Game system, designer clothes, and any other "extras" I paid for with my hard earned money. They would be served oatmeal. I promise after a couple of days like that, you see a difference in attitude! Parents cater to their kids way too much. You are their parent, NOT their friend or buddy. They live in your home, you pay the bills. When there is work to do in the home, it is their responsibility to do their fair share. You are not doing your child any favors by cuddling them. Do you think when they get in the real world and their boss tells them to do their work, that he/she will put up with that kind of disrespect? I f a child is 10-13 and you are having problems out of them, I wonder what 17 is going to look like?

 

They may not like you now, but it is your home, your rules. You are not here for them to 'like' or think you are cool. you are here to guide them and teach them. First lesson should be that this behavior is totally unacceptable and will not be tolerated in my home.

 

BTW, I have 3 boys and 6 girls, I have only had this problem with 2 of my children. My plan of action worked, even with the 'hard headed' one. 3 days tops before they came to 'talk' and get back on the right track. we do have a very close family, but one thing I will not put up with is disrespect from my kids.

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weak. very weak argument. but whatever, I have raised very good kids, and they realize they can not just walk all over everyone just because they do not feel like doing what they are suppose to be doing. I am so glad my dad raised me this way. I was prepared for what was ahead in the real world if I did not abide by the rules as were my children. I doubt many judges, police, or supervisors will want to sit down and show some respect for someone who thinks they can get away with anything because mom and dad was a good example of a rug.

 

 

and bless your heart right back.

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We are delighted you are so pleased with your upbringing and your children's upbringing. No doubt you are aware that others have managed to raise decent children and you can conceive that your way isn't the only way because there is only one of you. I happen to know the OP personally and know she is not some wet noodle of a person, so I am willing bless your heart any number of times this evening if that's required. Ranting at someone on your third post on a forum is not the best way to demonstrate your undoubtedly fine manners.

 

Rosie

Edited by Rosie_0801
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I wonder the same, Sandra.

In retrospect, I wish I had found a way to back off and encourage the self motivation earlier- with both kids. The last year before they have both gone off out of the home, was very difficult for me but I was trying so hard, really pushing and getting exasperated by the resistance, every day. In other words, I kept upping the consequences, the force, and getting more resistance. I wish I had tried something different.

It has worked to send them off. But I wish I had found a better way while they were still here.

 

My boys are 12 & 10, the oldest naturally driven and the youngest, not so much. I've been preaching internal motivation for years and seeing very little by way of results . . . until just recently. I would rather they produce a smidge of good work with motivation coming from within, than a whole load of mama-motivated work. I have to repeat the mantra all-day-every-day that a thin slice of true learning is more effectively stored in the gray area than a thick slice of "do it because I said so" learning. It's a tough walk.

 

T

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you have got to be kidding me?! Who is the parent and who is the child? I would never let my kids go without eating, but I can make it not so pleasant. I am required to provide nothing to my kids except Shelter, food, clothing and medical attention. If I got that attitude out of any of my kids, I would strip down their room to nothing but a mattress, pillow, blanket, and 3 changes of clothes I pick up from Goodwill. Gone would be the TV, Stereo, Game system, designer clothes, and any other "extras" I paid for with my hard earned money. They would be served oatmeal. I promise after a couple of days like that, you see a difference in attitude! Parents cater to their kids way too much. You are their parent, NOT their friend or buddy. They live in your home, you pay the bills. When there is work to do in the home, it is their responsibility to do their fair share. You are not doing your child any favors by cuddling them. Do you think when they get in the real world and their boss tells them to do their work, that he/she will put up with that kind of disrespect? I f a child is 10-13 and you are having problems out of them, I wonder what 17 is going to look like?

 

I pondered which of a few boards to post this on, I chose TWTM as folks tend to tell it like it is and be fairly strict in their parenting. I expected (wanted even) lots of responses like yours, and what I got were responses full of grace and very much focussed on engendering co-operation while maintaining a relationship. With this particular bull-headed child, to do what you suggested (and what I was considering) is akin to declaring war. I may win, but at what cost? I'm so grateful, so very, very grateful for the responses which counselled me to talk and listen to my child. Today I did just that and what a different day it was. I acheived everything I wanted without one shot fired.

 

The kitchen has been cleaned up, the school work done, the bedroom started on and other chores around the house completed. All with a cheerful heart. If I had declared war I just can't imagine what a hellish day it would have been for all of us.

 

I think I prefer the other responses, but thank you for taking the time to respond.

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I pondered which of a few boards to post this on, I chose TWTM as folks tend to tell it like it is and be fairly strict in their parenting. I expected (wanted even) lots of responses like yours, and what I got were responses full of grace and very much focussed on engendering co-operation while maintaining a relationship. With this particular bull-headed child, to do what you suggested (and what I was considering) is akin to declaring war. I may win, but at what cost? I'm so grateful, so very, very grateful for the responses which counselled me to talk and listen to my child. Today I did just that and what a different day it was. I acheived everything I wanted without one shot fired.

 

The kitchen has been cleaned up, the school work done, the bedroom started on and other chores around the house completed. All with a cheerful heart. If I had declared war I just can't imagine what a hellish day it would have been for all of us.

 

I think I prefer the other responses, but thank you for taking the time to respond.

 

I wish my posts were more like yours. Beautifully and gracefully written.

 

I too have learned to be less autocratic by the wisdom I've read on this board.

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I pondered which of a few boards to post this on, I chose TWTM as folks tend to tell it like it is and be fairly strict in their parenting. I expected (wanted even) lots of responses like yours, and what I got were responses full of grace and very much focussed on engendering co-operation while maintaining a relationship. With this particular bull-headed child, to do what you suggested (and what I was considering) is akin to declaring war. I may win, but at what cost? I'm so grateful, so very, very grateful for the responses which counselled me to talk and listen to my child. Today I did just that and what a different day it was. I acheived everything I wanted without one shot fired.

 

The kitchen has been cleaned up, the school work done, the bedroom started on and other chores around the house completed. All with a cheerful heart. If I had declared war I just can't imagine what a hellish day it would have been for all of us.

 

I think I prefer the other responses, but thank you for taking the time to respond.

 

Very respectfully written. You are a model to us all.

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I pondered which of a few boards to post this on, I chose TWTM as folks tend to tell it like it is and be fairly strict in their parenting. I expected (wanted even) lots of responses like yours, and what I got were responses full of grace and very much focussed on engendering co-operation while maintaining a relationship. With this particular bull-headed child, to do what you suggested (and what I was considering) is akin to declaring war. I may win, but at what cost? I'm so grateful, so very, very grateful for the responses which counselled me to talk and listen to my child. Today I did just that and what a different day it was. I acheived everything I wanted without one shot fired.

 

The kitchen has been cleaned up, the school work done, the bedroom started on and other chores around the house completed. All with a cheerful heart. If I had declared war I just can't imagine what a hellish day it would have been for all of us.

 

I think I prefer the other responses, but thank you for taking the time to respond.

 

Beautiful.

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My ds 6 is an Aspie and lives in an alternate reality where he has all the rights and priveleges of an adult.:001_huh: We are still working to bring him down to earth. I admit I've lost my patience quite a few times, but I am trying to concentrate on showing him the consequences of a wise vs. a foolish choice. Interestingly many of the responses in this thread sound very much like the Love and Logic method (www.loveandlogic.com) which we are trying to implement in our home. It uses mostly natural and logical consequences and allows children to take responsibility for their actions rather than nagging, coaxing and intimidating children into compliance, but it has been difficult for me as I am naturally an impatient person and was not parented well myself.

 

Anyhow you might look into it for your 11 yo ds. I feel it has some good phrases to use to prevent the situation from deteriorating into a battle.

 

good thread!

 

__________________________

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married to Game Programmer Dad

Playtester 1 dd 7- S.F. Math, ACHOTW history, mixture of lang. arts curr.

Playtester 2 ds 6 (Aspie, ps kinder, coming home in two months)

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With this particular bull-headed child, to do what you suggested (and what I was considering) is akin to declaring war. I may win, but at what cost?

My DD is only 7, but I feel exactly the same way about her. I 'know' I get much better results if I can convince her to cooperate rather than demand that she do something. The trick is figuring out how to do that all/most of the time.;)

 

 

Rosie :001_wub:

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I've had this discussion several times with other parents; some of whom have this personality type, others have children like this (my oldest son).

 

As adults we see the gulf between what we know and what our children do. Some kids are born with personalities which trust parents or the passivity to follow along. Other kids are born with the innate idea that NO ONE knows more about what they need then they do, and the lack of respect from parents frustrates them.

 

My oldest is that way. From what I can see kids with this personality:

 

*don't assume that you're right just because you're older

*greatly need personal experience, not advice

*feel insulted to be told what to do

*don't do 'instant obedience' because it insults their personal authority over themselves

*need to feel respected

*need apologies if you are wrong or to admit if you don't know something

*need to know more than you sometimes (in a good way), need you to listen to their knowledge and appreciate them

*need to be involved in goals, not punishments

 

Younger kids with this personality are actually harder then older ones (I think...mine is only 12 right now and he gets better and better). You can't always reason with them effectively and sometimes your logic is beyond them. If you're getting into arguments about why they should be able to run across the road, sometimes you just have to eliminate the ability to be by the road!

 

In our case I found I had to separate him from his siblings when he couldn't empathize with them enough to treat them decently. Always tried to speak calmly (emotion can just reinforce that I must be wrong or rile him up and make things work). And reinforce respect for everyone, including to him by me.

 

Chores are part of family life, but there are consequences for not doing them. If I have to do your chores, you may have to pay me with your allowance. If I have to do your chores I am too tired to drive you to game stop or your friend's house. If I have to do your chores our house is too messy for your friends to come over. If I have to do your chores I get cranky and be uninterested in helping people out with fun stuff because I'm so busy. Sometimes you have to just let them experience the consequences.

 

Honestly, my 12 year old has gotten better over the last few years. This personality type seems to love responsibility. I'm very proud of him and I've learned to let a lot of things go and let him make his mistakes (and really talk him up when he's doing well). Unfortunately, academics (or any non-favorite activity or subject) can be a hard sell. Motivation is so internal. They just don't 'get' why they should do things and they don't just go along with things. Fortunately, if you build the relationship and create a cycle of respect they do start to listen to you (sorta) and sometimes give things a half-hearted try when you give them logical reasoning. Or you can create a reward cycle which gives them things they do really want (not necessarily money, but time to do things they want, etc).

 

My 2 cents. Hopefully its helpful to someone because I remember the days when my son had me banging my head against the wall wondering why he didn't have (what I considered) empathy to others and why he just couldn't listen to me. As a people-pleaser and family fixer I just could not understand him. It took a long time observing him, making lots of mistakes, and talking to others to really see the strengths in his personality and to adapt my own approach to him.

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I've had this discussion several times with other parents; some of whom have this personality type, others have children like this (my oldest son).

 

As adults we see the gulf between what we know and what our children do. Some kids are born with personalities which trust parents or the passivity to follow along. Other kids are born with the innate idea that NO ONE knows more about what they need then they do, and the lack of respect from parents frustrates them.

 

My oldest is that way. From what I can see kids with this personality:

 

*don't assume that you're right just because you're older

*greatly need personal experience, not advice

*feel insulted to be told what to do

*don't do 'instant obedience' because it insults their personal authority over themselves

*need to feel respected

*need apologies if you are wrong or to admit if you don't know something

*need to know more than you sometimes (in a good way), need you to listen to their knowledge and appreciate them

*need to be involved in goals, not punishments

 

Younger kids with this personality are actually harder then older ones (I think...mine is only 12 right now and he gets better and better). You can't always reason with them effectively and sometimes your logic is beyond them. If you're getting into arguments about why they should be able to run across the road, sometimes you just have to eliminate the ability to be by the road!

 

In our case I found I had to separate him from his siblings when he couldn't empathize with them enough to treat them decently. Always tried to speak calmly (emotion can just reinforce that I must be wrong or rile him up and make things work). And reinforce respect for everyone, including to him by me.

 

Chores are part of family life, but there are consequences for not doing them. If I have to do your chores, you may have to pay me with your allowance. If I have to do your chores I am too tired to drive you to game stop or your friend's house. If I have to do your chores our house is too messy for your friends to come over. If I have to do your chores I get cranky and be uninterested in helping people out with fun stuff because I'm so busy. Sometimes you have to just let them experience the consequences.

 

Honestly, my 12 year old has gotten better over the last few years. This personality type seems to love responsibility. I'm very proud of him and I've learned to let a lot of things go and let him make his mistakes (and really talk him up when he's doing well). Unfortunately, academics (or any non-favorite activity or subject) can be a hard sell. Motivation is so internal. They just don't 'get' why they should do things and they don't just go along with things. Fortunately, if you build the relationship and create a cycle of respect they do start to listen to you (sorta) and sometimes give things a half-hearted try when you give them logical reasoning. Or you can create a reward cycle which gives them things they do really want (not necessarily money, but time to do things they want, etc).

 

My 2 cents. Hopefully its helpful to someone because I remember the days when my son had me banging my head against the wall wondering why he didn't have (what I considered) empathy to others and why he just couldn't listen to me. As a people-pleaser and family fixer I just could not understand him. It took a long time observing him, making lots of mistakes, and talking to others to really see the strengths in his personality and to adapt my own approach to him.

 

I wish I could :grouphug: you right now. this is an epiphany moment for me. you are describing my daughter.

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I've had this discussion several times with other parents; some of whom have this personality type, others have children like this (my oldest son).

 

As adults we see the gulf between what we know and what our children do. Some kids are born with personalities which trust parents or the passivity to follow along. Other kids are born with the innate idea that NO ONE knows more about what they need then they do, and the lack of respect from parents frustrates them.

 

My oldest is that way. From what I can see kids with this personality:

 

*don't assume that you're right just because you're older

*greatly need personal experience, not advice

*feel insulted to be told what to do

*don't do 'instant obedience' because it insults their personal authority over themselves

*need to feel respected

*need apologies if you are wrong or to admit if you don't know something

*need to know more than you sometimes (in a good way), need you to listen to their knowledge and appreciate them

*need to be involved in goals, not punishments

 

Younger kids with this personality are actually harder then older ones (I think...mine is only 12 right now and he gets better and better). You can't always reason with them effectively and sometimes your logic is beyond them. If you're getting into arguments about why they should be able to run across the road, sometimes you just have to eliminate the ability to be by the road!

 

In our case I found I had to separate him from his siblings when he couldn't empathize with them enough to treat them decently. Always tried to speak calmly (emotion can just reinforce that I must be wrong or rile him up and make things work). And reinforce respect for everyone, including to him by me.

 

Chores are part of family life, but there are consequences for not doing them. If I have to do your chores, you may have to pay me with your allowance. If I have to do your chores I am too tired to drive you to game stop or your friend's house. If I have to do your chores our house is too messy for your friends to come over. If I have to do your chores I get cranky and be uninterested in helping people out with fun stuff because I'm so busy. Sometimes you have to just let them experience the consequences.

 

Honestly, my 12 year old has gotten better over the last few years. This personality type seems to love responsibility. I'm very proud of him and I've learned to let a lot of things go and let him make his mistakes (and really talk him up when he's doing well). Unfortunately, academics (or any non-favorite activity or subject) can be a hard sell. Motivation is so internal. They just don't 'get' why they should do things and they don't just go along with things. Fortunately, if you build the relationship and create a cycle of respect they do start to listen to you (sorta) and sometimes give things a half-hearted try when you give them logical reasoning. Or you can create a reward cycle which gives them things they do really want (not necessarily money, but time to do things they want, etc).

 

My 2 cents. Hopefully its helpful to someone because I remember the days when my son had me banging my head against the wall wondering why he didn't have (what I considered) empathy to others and why he just couldn't listen to me. As a people-pleaser and family fixer I just could not understand him. It took a long time observing him, making lots of mistakes, and talking to others to really see the strengths in his personality and to adapt my own approach to him.

 

Beautiful post! I love the way you put into words the needs of this type of kid- I can really relate to that.

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I've had this discussion several times with other parents; some of whom have this personality type, others have children like this (my oldest son).

 

As adults we see the gulf between what we know and what our children do. Some kids are born with personalities which trust parents or the passivity to follow along. Other kids are born with the innate idea that NO ONE knows more about what they need then they do, and the lack of respect from parents frustrates them.

 

My oldest is that way. From what I can see kids with this personality:

 

*don't assume that you're right just because you're older

*greatly need personal experience, not advice

*feel insulted to be told what to do

*don't do 'instant obedience' because it insults their personal authority over themselves

*need to feel respected

*need apologies if you are wrong or to admit if you don't know something

*need to know more than you sometimes (in a good way), need you to listen to their knowledge and appreciate them

*need to be involved in goals, not punishments

 

Younger kids with this personality are actually harder then older ones (I think...mine is only 12 right now and he gets better and better). You can't always reason with them effectively and sometimes your logic is beyond them. If you're getting into arguments about why they should be able to run across the road, sometimes you just have to eliminate the ability to be by the road!

 

In our case I found I had to separate him from his siblings when he couldn't empathize with them enough to treat them decently. Always tried to speak calmly (emotion can just reinforce that I must be wrong or rile him up and make things work). And reinforce respect for everyone, including to him by me.

 

Chores are part of family life, but there are consequences for not doing them. If I have to do your chores, you may have to pay me with your allowance. If I have to do your chores I am too tired to drive you to game stop or your friend's house. If I have to do your chores our house is too messy for your friends to come over. If I have to do your chores I get cranky and be uninterested in helping people out with fun stuff because I'm so busy. Sometimes you have to just let them experience the consequences.

 

Honestly, my 12 year old has gotten better over the last few years. This personality type seems to love responsibility. I'm very proud of him and I've learned to let a lot of things go and let him make his mistakes (and really talk him up when he's doing well). Unfortunately, academics (or any non-favorite activity or subject) can be a hard sell. Motivation is so internal. They just don't 'get' why they should do things and they don't just go along with things. Fortunately, if you build the relationship and create a cycle of respect they do start to listen to you (sorta) and sometimes give things a half-hearted try when you give them logical reasoning. Or you can create a reward cycle which gives them things they do really want (not necessarily money, but time to do things they want, etc).

 

My 2 cents. Hopefully its helpful to someone because I remember the days when my son had me banging my head against the wall wondering why he didn't have (what I considered) empathy to others and why he just couldn't listen to me. As a people-pleaser and family fixer I just could not understand him. It took a long time observing him, making lots of mistakes, and talking to others to really see the strengths in his personality and to adapt my own approach to him.

 

 

Beautiful! This is what I'm finding to be true with my 5yo, and I am absolutely having success with the approach you've described here. When I get it 'right', life here is so, so much better for all of us.

 

Sandra, I just loved reading your update! :D

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My ds 6 is an Aspie and lives in an alternate reality where he has all the rights and priveleges of an adult.:001_huh: We are still working to bring him down to earth. I admit I've lost my patience quite a few times, but I am trying to concentrate on showing him the consequences of a wise vs. a foolish choice. Interestingly many of the responses in this thread sound very much like the Love and Logic method (www.loveandlogic.com) which we are trying to implement in our home. It uses mostly natural and logical consequences and allows children to take responsibility for their actions rather than nagging, coaxing and intimidating children into compliance, but it has been difficult for me as I am naturally an impatient person and was not parented well myself.

 

Anyhow you might look into it for your 11 yo ds. I feel it has some good phrases to use to prevent the situation from deteriorating into a battle.

 

good thread!

 

Thanks, I'll check it out.

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Okay, well some improvement here. On my side, I mean.:001_smile:

 

I have found ds needs time in his room to wind down before bed. Tonight he is really into a project downstairs. In the past, I might just have said, "You need to go upstairs in 15 minutes." Or not. And we would suffer the consequences. Tonight I sat down and talked to him about it. I said," I think you usually need some time to wind down in your room, but I can see you're really into what you are doing here. When do you want to go up? It's up to you." He said, "I really need about an hour in my room, so I'll go up pretty soon."

 

Now, the sad thing on my part is, I swear I have known this before. I seem to need to keep relearning this lesson in different ways. Thanks for all the wonderful advice.

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I've had this discussion several times with other parents; some of whom have this personality type, others have children like this (my oldest son).

 

As adults we see the gulf between what we know and what our children do. Some kids are born with personalities which trust parents or the passivity to follow along. Other kids are born with the innate idea that NO ONE knows more about what they need then they do, and the lack of respect from parents frustrates them.

 

My oldest is that way. From what I can see kids with this personality:

 

*don't assume that you're right just because you're older

*greatly need personal experience, not advice

*feel insulted to be told what to do

*don't do 'instant obedience' because it insults their personal authority over themselves

*need to feel respected

*need apologies if you are wrong or to admit if you don't know something

*need to know more than you sometimes (in a good way), need you to listen to their knowledge and appreciate them

*need to be involved in goals, not punishments

 

Younger kids with this personality are actually harder then older ones (I think...mine is only 12 right now and he gets better and better). You can't always reason with them effectively and sometimes your logic is beyond them. If you're getting into arguments about why they should be able to run across the road, sometimes you just have to eliminate the ability to be by the road!

 

In our case I found I had to separate him from his siblings when he couldn't empathize with them enough to treat them decently. Always tried to speak calmly (emotion can just reinforce that I must be wrong or rile him up and make things work). And reinforce respect for everyone, including to him by me.

 

Chores are part of family life, but there are consequences for not doing them. If I have to do your chores, you may have to pay me with your allowance. If I have to do your chores I am too tired to drive you to game stop or your friend's house. If I have to do your chores our house is too messy for your friends to come over. If I have to do your chores I get cranky and be uninterested in helping people out with fun stuff because I'm so busy. Sometimes you have to just let them experience the consequences.

 

Honestly, my 12 year old has gotten better over the last few years. This personality type seems to love responsibility. I'm very proud of him and I've learned to let a lot of things go and let him make his mistakes (and really talk him up when he's doing well). Unfortunately, academics (or any non-favorite activity or subject) can be a hard sell. Motivation is so internal. They just don't 'get' why they should do things and they don't just go along with things. Fortunately, if you build the relationship and create a cycle of respect they do start to listen to you (sorta) and sometimes give things a half-hearted try when you give them logical reasoning. Or you can create a reward cycle which gives them things they do really want (not necessarily money, but time to do things they want, etc).

 

My 2 cents. Hopefully its helpful to someone because I remember the days when my son had me banging my head against the wall wondering why he didn't have (what I considered) empathy to others and why he just couldn't listen to me. As a people-pleaser and family fixer I just could not understand him. It took a long time observing him, making lots of mistakes, and talking to others to really see the strengths in his personality and to adapt my own approach to him.

 

That is ds7! I just read this to dh and he agrees, that is ds exactly. And we both had to admit this is us too, so he gets it honestly. I am glad to know it gets easier as they get older.

 

Right now we are at a point where I respect and understand his need for respect, and I always try to explain why things have to be done a certain way, or at a certain time, or at all...but he doesn't always understand my explanation. That can get very frustrating for all of us.

 

And we are at the same time working on him doing what he is told before he gets the explanation if I say it has to be done NOW, with the agreement that I will explain it once the need for quickness is over. For example, we were out riding bikes and a car was coming, so we pulled off to the side of the road. Except ds stopped right at the edge of the road, with one wheel off and one wheel on the pavement. I told him to move, as the car was getting very close. He thought it was fine because his front wheel was off the road - he was facing forward and could not see the rear wheel or the car. I didn't have time to argue the point so I pulled him off the bike, out of the way of the car. He was very angry and started to have a meltdown until I turned him just in time to see the car whiz past us, right next to his bike. When he got over the shock we had a good conversation about why when Mommy uses a certain tone or key word he needs to just DO IT even if he doesn't understand why. He can ask afterward.

 

Also, on a lighter note, I once had to actually show a spelling word in a dictionary because he was so totally convinced I had misspelled it. :glare:

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Oops, just realized my post was a total hijack. Sorry, I just got so excited when I realized someone else has a child like mine.

 

Anyway, Keptwoman - I am glad to see that your day went better today. I think if your ds is anything like mine using an approach that makes him feel respected and appreciated as a person just like the adults will go a lot farther than punishing.

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