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Ok I give up, I am flinging WWE out the window


kwickimom
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My DD8 who is in 3rd grade is doing WW2 and everyday we both want to cry. She cannot answer a single question about what I just read to her and dictation is ridiculous. She just cannot do it. We suffered through to lesson 28 and it isnt any better AT ALL.

 

I give up. We will finish up the book and then it is gone. I think after 28 weeks she should be able to tell me one single detail about the passage and she cant.

 

 

I need a good writing program for a visual learner. HELP!! what suggestions do you have for 4th grade?

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Oh! and one thing we did for my son when he was younger was "act out" the passage-it really helped him remember what was happening. We also acted out the dictation.

 

 

We have tried all that. If I let her read it, then she can do it. Thats it. Other wise she has zero retention and I feel as if we are wasting our time.

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My visual learner always narrates better when *she* reads the passage, and if we do studied dictation, where she studies the passage herself first, and then I dictate. I don't know if it's possible to use those ideas with WWE (haven't used it), but just a couple of thoughts for you.

 

HTH,

Melissa

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My dd struggles with summarizing the passages sometimes, too. Do you read the selections to her or have her read them to herself or out loud? Mine usually reads them to herself so I require that she read through them twice. We are on WWE 3 and a few weeks ago they took away the comprehension questions and she has to summarize it on her own. I have found talking about it with her, not asking questions, but just have her talk about it, helps her to come up with her summary.

 

Sorry you have had such a struggle. I hope you find a better fit for next year!

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My visual learner always narrates better when *she* reads the passage, and if we do studied dictation, where she studies the passage herself first, and then I dictate. I don't know if it's possible to use those ideas with WWE (haven't used it), but just a couple of thoughts for you.

 

HTH,

Melissa

 

 

this would work for her, but is totally opposite of what WWE teaches. What do you use? CM?

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I am sorry to hear you are having a hard time. Hang in there. I tired doing WWE3 with my 9 year old and it also resulted in tears. I moved him back to WWE2 and it is much better. You could try WWE1, it seems the material is somewhat easier to grasp than WWE2. I am using WWE1 with my almost 8 year old and it is working out well. Another option would be to "throw it out the window" (smile) and try IEW with Andrew Pudewa. It is good for what I would call visual learners. We are working through one of his books now and It has been beneficial. Hope my two cents helps.....Hugs and have a good homeschool day in spite of it all :).

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We have tried all that. If I let her read it, then she can do it. Thats it. Other wise she has zero retention and I feel as if we are wasting our time.

 

I would absolutely let her read it or read along over your shoulder while you read. In WWE 3 they will be doing the reading. I can't imagine there is anything wrong with starting early.

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Would it be counterproductive to do WWE but have her read the passages and do studied dictation?

 

I think I just need a new program but I have no clue what to do

 

I have no idea if studied dictation would be counterproductive in SWB's mind but remember YOU are the teacher.;) To me studied dictation or vastly shortened dictations are better than none at all. Just use WWE as a tool to meet your child where she is at.

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What do you use? CM?

 

Yes, I'm pretty CM-minded. I got most of my help from reading CM's own writings from the AO website, charlottemasonhelp.com, and the Simply Charlotte Mason website.

 

I should say, I do a lot of reading aloud to dd, and I do have her narrate from that - this directly follows CM, as well. I tell her ahead of time that she must pay close attention, as I will only read once and then ask her to tell back. Keep the readings short. I mean really, really short, in the beginning. Two sentences. Work up to one short fable. Keep on from there.

 

Halfway through 4th grade, dd is much better at this than she was when we started. We've just practiced consistently, since 1st grade, really.

 

For us, copywork has been for the purpose of being exposed to new/enriching ideas, exposure to grammar, spelling, punctuation, and improving handwriting. Studied dictation has been for the purpose of improving spelling/handwriting, etc. Narration (first oral, now oral and written) has been for the purpose of learning to compose. Oral narration is sometimes called oral composition - it's learning to organize thoughts and express them clearly. Written narration is learning to get those organized thoughts on paper. All of this has served the purpose of learning to read, think and write. I guess what I'm saying is - determine what you're wanting to get out of the program, then find the best tool to get you there, whether it's WTM path or CM path or your own path.

 

(Just last month we started Writing Strands, as I felt I needed a little more guidance in writing instruction than available with just written narrations. So maybe I am veering back towards WTM way now?)

 

Sorry for the ramble, hope it's a little helpful,

Melissa

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Just for comparison, how does she do with anything else you read to her, say a chapter book? Can she narrate? If her ability to read and narrate is significantly stronger than her ability do listen and narrate, you either work around it (let her read the text) or work on it. Part of the issue is whether they visualize or get mental pictures while they listen. You can read her a small section and put a token for that section. Now read the next section and move a token for that section. Continue till you have 3, 4,5 tokens as needed. Now have her go back and retell the story, using the tokens as pegs.

 

Difficulty holding all the words in her head for dictation can just be that she's not ready (something that will improve with time and gentle continued work), or it can be an indication of working memory problems.

 

And yes, to me it was very frustrating working with WWE, because they toss out so many skills and imply you both ought to get them and ought to be ABLE to get them. Some kids are NOT going to get these skills easily, and it can be because of actual problems. SWB doesn't have a degree in education remember. Our trick as mothers is to sort out whether what we're seeing is just a slight difference, a readiness issue, or whether it's an across-the-board thing, the tip of an iceberg. In our case it was an indication that there was something more going on there.

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I agree with letting her read stuff.

 

Also, to build up the skill of doing it without reading it, maybe go WAAAAAY back in difficulty level. Like very simple first-second grade passages. Just ask for simple narrations like that. Do some dictation with a few words from her spelling work each week. Find a level where she CAN do it, then increase gradually from there to work on this skill?

 

It is a useful skill, as when she's in college and taking notes from what the teacher says, she won't be able to see what the teacher is saying. But I can totally understand the level you're doing WWE at being too difficult. I know WWE1 has some passages that are over my first grader's head, and I sometimes want to bang my head against a wall. I still believe in the program though. Just sometimes the passages aren't quite the right fit. I got the instructor text to use next year, so I can pick my own passages and tailor them more to his abilities.

 

As far as the purpose of WWE... It's for expository writing, so I don't see why reading the passages would go against that. I think she'd still learn what she is supposed to learn. I just think that for note taking, she'll also want to be able to pull things out of what she hears and write them down. That could probably be taught separately from WWE, just backtracking a whole lot, as I mentioned above.

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Yes, I'm pretty CM-minded. I got most of my help from reading CM's own writings from the AO website, charlottemasonhelp.com, and the Simply Charlotte Mason website.

 

I should say, I do a lot of reading aloud to dd, and I do have her narrate from that - this directly follows CM, as well. I tell her ahead of time that she must pay close attention, as I will only read once and then ask her to tell back. Keep the readings short. I mean really, really short, in the beginning. Two sentences. Work up to one short fable. Keep on from there.

 

Halfway through 4th grade, dd is much better at this than she was when we started. We've just practiced consistently, since 1st grade, really.

 

For us, copywork has been for the purpose of being exposed to new/enriching ideas, exposure to grammar, spelling, punctuation, and improving handwriting. Studied dictation has been for the purpose of improving spelling/handwriting, etc. Narration (first oral, now oral and written) has been for the purpose of learning to compose. Oral narration is sometimes called oral composition - it's learning to organize thoughts and express them clearly. Written narration is learning to get those organized thoughts on paper. All of this has served the purpose of learning to read, think and write. I guess what I'm saying is - determine what you're wanting to get out of the program, then find the best tool to get you there, whether it's WTM path or CM path or your own path.

 

(Just last month we started Writing Strands, as I felt I needed a little more guidance in writing instruction than available with just written narrations. So maybe I am veering back towards WTM way now?)

 

Sorry for the ramble, hope it's a little helpful,

Melissa

Thank you! I have been researching CM and like the looks of it also. I will think about all you have wrote!

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Just for comparison, how does she do with anything else you read to her, say a chapter book? Can she narrate? If her ability to read and narrate is significantly stronger than her ability do listen and narrate, you either work around it (let her read the text) or work on it. Part of the issue is whether they visualize or get mental pictures while they listen. You can read her a small section and put a token for that section. Now read the next section and move a token for that section. Continue till you have 3, 4,5 tokens as needed. Now have her go back and retell the story, using the tokens as pegs.

 

Difficulty holding all the words in her head for dictation can just be that she's not ready (something that will improve with time and gentle continued work), or it can be an indication of working memory problems.

 

And yes, to me it was very frustrating working with WWE, because they toss out so many skills and imply you both ought to get them and ought to be ABLE to get them. Some kids are NOT going to get these skills easily, and it can be because of actual problems. SWB doesn't have a degree in education remember. Our trick as mothers is to sort out whether what we're seeing is just a slight difference, a readiness issue, or whether it's an across-the-board thing, the tip of an iceberg. In our case it was an indication that there was something more going on there.

 

 

She has trouble recalling facts or retelling from anything I read her without prompts. If she reads it, she is better about narrating back. If I have her read something AND do a written narration without telling me a word...she does a wonderful job.

 

So, she has trouble speaking back to me what she has heard or read, but is better if she reads it.

 

SIGH. Now I am really confused and wondering if I just wasted half a year.

 

I either need to start all over with WWE1 or

switch to studied dictation and work on super short narrations or

pick a whole new program.

 

GAH!

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I would absolutely let her read it or read along over your shoulder while you read. In WWE 3 they will be doing the reading. I can't imagine there is anything wrong with starting early.

:iagree:

There is no "right" way to do this. Holding the thoughts in your mind is only one of the many benefits of dictation; there's also spelling, grammar, "playing" with beautiful words, etc. I'm doing WWE3 and 4 with my girls. Some of the dictation passages in WWE 4 are, IMO, over the top as straight dictation. However, the passages are examples of great writing with difficult spelling words and great examples of grammar/punctuation rules. If the dictation is too challenging, we have started using the passage as copywork the day before we do it as dictation, a la Brave Writer. (I love Julie Bogart's approach to writing and we're using that next year.) That gives her a little advantage, but she still has to practice holding the thoughts in her mind before writing them.

 

BTW, I heard SWB speak at a convention last year and she adamantly stated that if there are tears, there needs to be a change.

 

Good luck!

 

Rene

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We have tried all that. If I let her read it, then she can do it. Thats it. Other wise she has zero retention and I feel as if we are wasting our time.

 

So let her read it. My 3rd grader and 5th grader read their selection out loud to me while I look over their shoulder so WWE does some double duty with pronunciation and oral reading skills I skip the dictation portion entirely. Ridiculous! Are you not supposed to let them read it in WWE2? I can't remember what the directions said but the directions for 3 and 4 say that the student can read or listen...either one. HTH. :001_smile:

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My recommendation would be to let her read it herself and do the exercises. The reason why WWE separates the skills it to try to make it easier, but if she can't hear it then it isn't helping her to keep the sill separate. Besides they get to read it in WWE 3 anyway.

 

But I would also look into Visualizing and Verbalizing (VV). It is a program that teaches the child to use the ability to see pictures in the mind to improve comprehension. Given how many classes are structured with a lecture it would be better for her in the long run to master this skill, even through it is not her strong point. Ideal Chain is a scripted program that works on the same thing, but is also more expensive.

 

My kids would be in tears if we did dictation they way WWE does, and I am a huge, long term fan of dictation. I give it to them word for word. We use VV to develop sills for holding thoughts in the mind, based on pictures and not words.

 

Heather

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I either need to start all over with WWE1 or

switch to studied dictation and work on super short narrations or

pick a whole new program.

 

GAH!

 

Yup, the middle one.

 

I have no idea if studied dictation would be counterproductive in SWB's mind but remember YOU are the teacher.;) To me studied dictation or vastly shortened dictations are better than none at all. Just use WWE as a tool to meet your child where she is at.

 

(emphasis mine)

 

Take a break, start where you left off, using WWE as a tool to move your child forward. Remember that homeschooling is about individualizing to meet your child, not fitting them into someone else's box, right? You can do this!!

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I either need to start all over with WWE1 or

switch to studied dictation and work on super short narrations or

pick a whole new program.

 

Since you said you were going to finish out the year, why not start (today) with letting her read the passage herself. I wouldn't worry about the questions if she can write a narration herself that fits the directions.

 

I'd say something like, "I realize this hasn't' been working well. I'm looking into other things to do for next year that won't be so frustrating for us both. We're going to finish WWE2 this year (pause for child to whine/groan) but we're going to try it differently starting today. You read the passage to yourself instead of me reading it to you...." (Make any other changes you think are necessary.)

 

Me, I work the program. I don't let the program work me. Sometimes, you just need permission to make some changes.

 

If she still isn't getting it (the "main point" of the passage), I'd do something different.

 

I like Writing Tales, but you'll want to tweak it by letting your child read it to herself vs. you reading it with her out loud. There is copy work, light grammar, summarizing, vocabulary, etc.

 

Whatever you move to, don't feel like you have to do it *exactly* as written. Each kid is different & that is one of the great parts of HSing -- we can modify to fit our kid(s).

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As I think you said that you were going to finish WWE2 before moving on can I suggest that you watch SWB's you tube videos on dictation. It totally changed the way I did dictation. She does a lot of hand holding with it.

 

We had a lot of tears with WWE 3, I watched the you tube video and that helped with dictation. We also have been doing FLL and that has poem memorization. My ds is still not having an easy time of it as this is our first year with Home school, but I have seen some serious improvement. The more he memorizes, the easier it become for him to memorize. We went from tears with dictation to pride as he stands and tells The Land of Nod from memory.

 

The other thing is the narration. What I started doing was I read him all the questions, before we read the passage. I then read the passage and I read him the questions again. Then he reads the passage to me. After that, we I ask him the questions and he gives me answers. At some point soon I plan on dropping one of the pre reading of the questions.

 

I don't know if this is your first year of home school, but it is mine. It seems like a lot of work for the narration. But I use that (and SOTW) instead of a formal reading program. Once he is able to do it the way it is written I will add a reading comprehension part. I figure for now, the narration as well as being writing and history is also reading comprehension.

 

I hope something in there helps.

 

Nicole

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I can't imagine there is anything wrong with starting early.

 

:iagree:

 

If she reads it, she is better about narrating back. If I have her read something AND do a written narration without telling me a word...she does a wonderful job.

 

But this is the whole goal of WWE 1-4 - to get the child to where he/she can read a passage, summarize it in his/her own words, and write it down himself/herself!! I think you said in one of these posts that she is a visual learner - well, reading it herself and narrating should be easy for her! Why not let her do that? You can still coach her along with questions if she goes off the main summary track, and you can still coach her through dictation (I think dictation is tougher than narration), but it seems to me from what you have written that you daughter would have no problem narrating if she could just read it herself. I wouldn't complicate things by looking around at other materials or methods just yet.

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this would work for her, but is totally opposite of what WWE teaches.

 

Will you clarify what you mean here - which would work for her - reading the passage before narrating, or studying the passage before taking a dictation?

 

If you mean reading before narrating, WWE gets the child to read before narrating later anyway, since that is the goal.

 

If you mean studying the passage before taking dictation, I think this would be opposite of what WWE teaches. And I think it's because it's opposite of the ultimate goal - to take the words and sentences that form, unseen, in the mind, and putting them to paper, when the child later composes his own summaries.

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Will you clarify what you mean here - which would work for her - reading the passage before narrating, or studying the passage before taking a dictation?

 

If you mean reading before narrating, WWE gets the child to read before narrating later anyway, since that is the goal.

 

If you mean studying the passage before taking dictation, I think this would be opposite of what WWE teaches. And I think it's because it's opposite of the ultimate goal - to take the words and sentences that form, unseen, in the mind, and putting them to paper, when the child later composes his own summaries.

 

Yes. I meant the dictation. I dont really see the point of studied dictation. I thought ht whole point was to be able to "visualize" a statement in their heads and then write it form memory. My DD could easily do studied dictation

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AI really like IEW writing programs. If you use the DVD's Andrew Puduwa is excellent at keeping a child's attention. I have taught it to 1-8th graders for the past two years in co-op. It definately meets, visual, kinesthetic, and other learning styles.

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OK So here are some thoughts after reading responses. BTW you ladies are WONDERFUL

 

Since my DD is lacking in the auditory processing area, I wanted to do WWE because I want her to learn that skill. Maybe I am wrong and it cant be learned. I thought that through practice she would get better, but we both want to scream so instead I want to give it up. :)

 

I am worried that she wont be able to take direction or notes from professors or whomever because she has a horrible time with this.

 

I can make WWE work for me with some of the ways you have suggested, and have thought about it, but I guess I was thinking that it was written the way it is, and taught the way it is for a specific reason. Being strong in LA and writing is super improtant. One of my main goals. So I am really wanting an excellent program that I can start with, and follow through with.

 

I am just thinking, that instead of bending this program to our needs, maybe there is a program that works for people like her.

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this would work for her, but is totally opposite of what WWE teaches. What do you use? CM?

 

Where did you get that idea?

 

By all means let her read the passages herself. In WWE 2 it is assumed the child is not fluent enough to do it himself.

 

As for dictation, break it down! Watch SWB's youtube videos on dictation. My ds had tears until I watched the video. No more tears.

Edited by Kleine Hexe
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Since my DD is lacking in the auditory processing area, I wanted to do WWE because I want her to learn that skill. Maybe I am wrong and it cant be learned. I thought that through practice she would get better, but we both want to scream so instead I want to give it up. :)

 

But dictation will help her with this skill. :D Dictation is multi-faceted - it does what you said - helps with visualizing a sentence and writing it down, but it also helps with that auditory retention and processing. I'm thinking that might be why it can be tough for visual learners. But I still think it's important for my visual learners to learn, because ultimately, they will need the ability in order to write down their own sentences from their unseen minds (so, auditory, in a way....)

 

I was thinking that it was written the way it is, and taught the way it is for a specific reason.

 

I think you are correct, but I also think that you can tweak some of it around. Maybe a child can master the narration bits in a particular section of weeks, but maybe that child needs to be working on the previous section's lengths of dictations. And that's alright. I don't think you are going to find any program that will perfectly match where your child is week to week. Everything will have to be bent somewhat to your child.

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OK So here are some thoughts after reading responses. BTW you ladies are WONDERFUL

 

Since my DD is lacking in the auditory processing area, I wanted to do WWE because I want her to learn that skill. Maybe I am wrong and it cant be learned. I thought that through practice she would get better, but we both want to scream so instead I want to give it up. :)

 

I am worried that she wont be able to take direction or notes from professors or whomever because she has a horrible time with this.

 

Are you making a medical statement here or using this as a passing phrase? There is such a thing as an auditory processing disorder. There are language processing disorders, expressive language disorders, etc. Are you saying she has been diagnosed or that you suspect a problem and that you hoped WWE would improve it? Or are you using the phrase non-medically? Sometimes our own intuition and attentiveness notices things before they get "diagnosed"... We just don't know what the words are. That's why I suggested you look at the dc as a whole and how she handles language. The token technique I suggested to you is something Verbalizing and Visualizing (V/V) uses. Siloam suggested it to you, and you can search the boards for other threads on it. There's also a 45 minute video on youtube about it, so you can learn more. It would be worth your time, if only to learn more about language processing.

 

I'm not trying to worry you or say you have a problem, but I am saying that differences like this can be early indicators of things you need to work on. If she has an actual diagnosis, then all the more so. I wish someone had told me that differences I saw in the early years (things that 80+% of the population can do with ease but mine wouldn't) were a sign of a problem, not merely something to accommodate and blow off. Sometimes people get confused and think the flexibility of homeschooling means you just change how you do stuff. Well it does, but sometimes the reason for needing the change is important and needs to be identified. *You* are on the frontlines and seeing it first.

 

I'll give you a little, easy example. My dd wouldn't color when she was little, not at all. She would sculpt, loved sculpting, and was quite good at it, so we just followed the popular advice not to worry about it, that she was just artistic and had better ways to spend her time. Yeah right. Five years later we had to do vision therapy and OT to correct her vision and hand problems that had been keeping her from coloring. We never knew. Were they right that some kids just don't color? Of course. But the majority do, and when a kid doesn't it's significant.

 

Well that's a lot of rambling. I just wanted to let you clarify if you used that phrase auditory processing in passing or medically. Our mother gut is quite in tune. You could actually be seeing something now that needs to be worked on.

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Are you making a medical statement here or using this as a passing phrase? There is such a thing as an auditory processing disorder. There are language processing disorders, expressive language disorders, etc. Are you saying she has been diagnosed or that you suspect a problem and that you hoped WWE would improve it? Or are you using the phrase non-medically? Sometimes our own intuition and attentiveness notices things before they get "diagnosed"... We just don't know what the words are. That's why I suggested you look at the dc as a whole and how she handles language. The token technique I suggested to you is something Verbalizing and Visualizing (V/V) uses. Siloam suggested it to you, and you can search the boards for other threads on it. There's also a 45 minute video on youtube about it, so you can learn more. It would be worth your time, if only to learn more about language processing.

 

I'm not trying to worry you or say you have a problem, but I am saying that differences like this can be early indicators of things you need to work on. If she has an actual diagnosis, then all the more so. I wish someone had told me that differences I saw in the early years (things that 80+% of the population can do with ease but mine wouldn't) were a sign of a problem, not merely something to accommodate and blow off. Sometimes people get confused and think the flexibility of homeschooling means you just change how you do stuff. Well it does, but sometimes the reason for needing the change is important and needs to be identified. *You* are on the frontlines and seeing it first.

 

I'll give you a little, easy example. My dd wouldn't color when she was little, not at all. She would sculpt, loved sculpting, and was quite good at it, so we just followed the popular advice not to worry about it, that she was just artistic and had better ways to spend her time. Yeah right. Five years later we had to do vision therapy and OT to correct her vision and hand problems that had been keeping her from coloring. We never knew. Were they right that some kids just don't color? Of course. But the majority do, and when a kid doesn't it's significant.

 

Well that's a lot of rambling. I just wanted to let you clarify if you used that phrase auditory processing in passing or medically. Our mother gut is quite in tune. You could actually be seeing something now that needs to be worked on.

 

 

Oh sorry about the confusion....she has not been diagnosed, nor do I think she has a medical problem. Well, at least I didnt. Maybe I will go an look it up.

 

I constantly have to repeat things to her, and if i give her 2 directions she usually has to ask again about the second one. But she did fine in PS up until I took her out this year. She didnt have any problems following directions there or anything.

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Just read about it. Also read about ADD, ADHD, and working memory. Working memory also affects language, because it acts as the tape recorder for the brain, giving them time to play it back and think through it while they process.

 

When my dd was the age of yours, I never would have thought any of these labels applied. It's because I didn't know what they really were and because her strengths were covering up for her weaknesses. But when I finally started reading about language processing, dyslexia, ADD, etc., a lot of separate things I had seen all along started to click. So just read and sort through it for yourself. Could be a sign of nothing or something. You can do a search on the Special Needs board and find posts by LizzyBee, etc. with all kinds of interesting links. Your library will have tons of books on this too.

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Just read about it. Also read about ADD, ADHD, and working memory. Working memory also affects language, because it acts as the tape recorder for the brain, giving them time to play it back and think through it while they process.

 

When my dd was the age of yours, I never would have thought any of these labels applied. It's because I didn't know what they really were and because her strengths were covering up for her weaknesses. But when I finally started reading about language processing, dyslexia, ADD, etc., a lot of separate things I had seen all along started to click. So just read and sort through it for yourself. Could be a sign of nothing or something. You can do a search on the Special Needs board and find posts by LizzyBee, etc. with all kinds of interesting links. Your library will have tons of books on this too.

 

Thanks for the info!

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I don't know if this will help... it's just my own personal experience, but my whole life I have had trouble with auditory retention. It wasn't until I went to college, and had so much trouble with understanding info given in lectures that I realized how bad my "issues" were. I believe I have auditory dyslexia (no official diagnosis). I have no trouble recalling 100% of anything I read, but if you read it to me I can barely understand what you're saying. This does not happen in conversation where there is a give and take. What I have found to help, is taking notes. Might be hard for an 8 year old though. Also if the reading is said in a conversational tone, that makes it better. It's something that I learned to adjust to as I've gotten older. I repeat in my head the important words as they're being said, turn it into an outline in my head. It might also help if she had an outline or bullet points of the reading. I've had to train my brain to do this on its own. I even have trouble with "hearing" the lyrics of songs. I can't be told how to do something, it has to either be shown to me or written down.

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If you mean studying the passage before taking dictation, I think this would be opposite of what WWE teaches. And I think it's because it's opposite of the ultimate goal - to take the words and sentences that form, unseen, in the mind, and putting them to paper, when the child later composes his own summaries.

 

I don't think it's the opposite. Laura Berquist mentions using both studied dictation and dictation. If a child struggles with dictation, they should start somewhere, don't you think?

 

Studied dictation means go over the passage a couple of times, noting anything they need to know, then do it from dictation. Unless the child has a photographic memory, this is still building up the ability to hold information in their head, isn't it? Maybe the OP could do both: studied dictation for longer passages, straight dictation for simpler ones?

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I don't think it's the opposite. Laura Berquist mentions using both studied dictation and dictation. If a child struggles with dictation, they should start somewhere, don't you think?

 

Studied dictation means go over the passage a couple of times, noting anything they need to know, then do it from dictation. Unless the child has a photographic memory, this is still building up the ability to hold information in their head, isn't it? Maybe the OP could do both: studied dictation for longer passages, straight dictation for simpler ones?

 

About start somewhere - I guess I think that the "starting somewhere" is early in WWE (level 2, I think?), where you start with dictating short sentences. Interestingly, I just got done doing a WWE 4 dictation with dd, and she had a hard time, so I figured I would just "back up" to shorter dictations again, and build her up from there again.

 

About studied dictation and noting anything they need to know - again, interestingly, while doing this WWE 4 dictation with dd, there was indeed preparation for it beforehand. I was instructed to read a longer passage to her, and the two sentences which I was to later dictate to her were contained in this longer passage. I suspect this instruction was to help the child contextualize the upcoming dictation to make it easier. I was also instructed to remind her of certain things, like that book titles get underlined (because a book title was in the dictation), and to also tell her what a certain phrase meant (because it would help her understand the passage better). So, I do see this type of preparation (unfamiliar word meanings, reminders of grammar/mechanical concepts that are coming, writing down how to spell possibly unfamiliar words, etc.) being taught and modeled in WWE - I just don't see WWE actually showing the child the dictation so he/she can see it beforehand. I think that's because the "seeing" part was practiced during the copywork phase of WWE. Dictation advances to being able to picture in the mind instead of seeing on paper, because eventually you have to do that anyway to get words from the mind onto paper.

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I didn't read the 5 pages so forgive me if this has been said. If it isn't working ditch it.

 

As much as I love TWTM and FLL we had to ditch WWE. It did not work for dd. We've moved on to CW and are doing okay. I don't know that writing will ever be dd's thing. Our early experience has kind of caused dd to be skittish of doing writing lessons.

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My dd7 is doing WWE 1 and has a TERRIBLE time with the same things!! I never really was too bothered with it until my dh heard our lesson the other day and suggested I read much slower...however it still didn't really change how well she recalled anything.

 

So after seeing that vid. that someone linked in the replies here....I think I will follow the suggestion that SWB suggests and that's read 2 lines and ask questions...read 2 more sentences and ask questions..then ask what is one thing you remember about the passage and accept even the last thing you read as their narration.

 

What I noticed with dd and using WWE is her handwriting has gotten better and she understands the proper way to write and what certain abbreviations mean.

 

As for ditching the curriculum. That is a personal choice for your homeschool. If it's not working and you've tried teaching it a few different ways then maybe shelf it and try something else...maybe a program that has some sample pages for you to try before investing. Although my dd7 struggles with it as far as narrating and answering questions...we're sticking it out and I'll change how I teach. I know it's worth keeping because dd5 can overhear what I've read and answer all the questions correct after her sister7 has said "I don't remember"....

 

I agree to what a pp said. This helps you see firsthand what your dd could just not be awesome at and allow you to teach her what she needs to know how she's able to learn it and move on....constant changing in curriculums can sometimes cause more stress and confusion than any good. I though that homeschooling would allow my children to have straight A's with no excuses since we're home and teaching them how they need to be taught...however I've realized they will get B's on the things they just don't progress as well in as others....that to me was the hardest realization. DD7 is great in reading, spelling and math....but not so hot in dictation/narration. However DD5 is great in dictation/narration and math and spelling..but not so well in reading..

 

I agree...just because you homeschool doesn't mean to just skip it..or move on and ignore it or come back to it at a later time.

 

Also the setting for that particular subject could be a huge factor too. My dd7 does better with narration/dictation when we're cuddled in my big comfy bed...rather than anywhere else in the house....she improves by 75% by this.

 

Sorry to ramble. Just wanted to be a voice here from a mom of a dd similar in struggles as your dd.

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Haven't read all the replies but here are two suggestions for you from experience with my own son who has some learning issues.

 

Read one paragraph (or have her read it) and then ask the corresponding questions. Continue on one paragraph at a time.

 

Allow her to take notes on a piece of paper while you read. My son came up with this idea on his own. I think it is a great life skill and a good coping strategy so I allow and even encourage it.

 

After months of doing the two above approaches, he became more comfortable and much more proficient at WWE. You may also need to drop back a level. My son (in fourth grade this year) started the year doing WWE2. He has worked his way into WWE3, and uses note-taking for the narration assignments. He cannot do the dictations as written so I break them into pieces and do them that way. Not all kids can do this program as written, and that is okay. I believe it has value but that, for some kids, it needs to be modified in order to work. JMO.

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I don't think it's the opposite. Laura Berquist mentions using both studied dictation and dictation. If a child struggles with dictation, they should start somewhere, don't you think?

 

Studied dictation means go over the passage a couple of times, noting anything they need to know, then do it from dictation. Unless the child has a photographic memory, this is still building up the ability to hold information in their head, isn't it? Maybe the OP could do both: studied dictation for longer passages, straight dictation for simpler ones?

 

:iagree: We have developed a habit of going over the dictation first to listen for any punctuation. Ds identifies this with my help, as needed. Then I repeat it several times. If I think it is too long for him (if he balks), then I cut it short or break it down. This works for us.

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I would consider getting her tested for central auditory processing disorder. While it is great that she can read information and understand it, it will be necessary for her to listen to a lecture and take notes at some point in life (assuming she will be college bound). If she has CAPD, addressing it with therapy now will be of great benefit.

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I don't know if this will help... it's just my own personal experience, but my whole life I have had trouble with auditory retention. It wasn't until I went to college, and had so much trouble with understanding info given in lectures that I realized how bad my "issues" were. I believe I have auditory dyslexia (no official diagnosis). I have no trouble recalling 100% of anything I read, but if you read it to me I can barely understand what you're saying. This does not happen in conversation where there is a give and take. What I have found to help, is taking notes. Might be hard for an 8 year old though. Also if the reading is said in a conversational tone, that makes it better. It's something that I learned to adjust to as I've gotten older. I repeat in my head the important words as they're being said, turn it into an outline in my head. It might also help if she had an outline or bullet points of the reading. I've had to train my brain to do this on its own. I even have trouble with "hearing" the lyrics of songs. I can't be told how to do something, it has to either be shown to me or written down.

 

This is me and my oldest daughter, exactly. I have trouble with sermons, even. :glare:

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I definitely agree with the suggestions to allow her to read the passage herself and to break the dictations up to the point where they are doable for her.

 

It may be worth looking into an auditory processing disorder, but it is also possible that she is just a very visual learner. Having one child who is visual, I understand your concern about wanting to strengthen the auditory skills for future learning. I would suggest separating that from writing instruction, so she doesn't end up carrying frustration with comprehension over to writing.

 

Perhaps someone who works with APD could also suggest ways to build auditory skills in a visual learner. Personally, I had my son do lots of picture books on tape and eventually chapter books on tape starting at a very young age, less than two. I used "fun reading" books that were very easy to understand. You could try doing a family read aloud of a book that she has already read and enjoyed. HTH and good luck!

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Thank you so much for starting this thread. I am teaching WWE1 to my dd7 right now and things are going okay now...but I definitely plan on using all these great ideas for how to approach it when we run into walls. I love that idea of letting the child take notes. As my dd loves to feel grown up I think this would suit her well--although I might have to pause during the reading to let her write the notes down...I'll have to think about it.

Thanks for sharing your frustration so that others can learn too.

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