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Ok I give up, I am flinging WWE out the window


kwickimom
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I see studied dictation as an intermediate step, bridging copywork to dictation... a step that not everyone may need. I don't think an author needs to foresee every conceivable situation or explicitly list every possible educational strategy for their product to be of value - or for those strategies to be legitimate.

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So, I do see this type of preparation (unfamiliar word meanings, reminders of grammar/mechanical concepts that are coming, writing down how to spell possibly unfamiliar words, etc.) being taught and modeled in WWE - I just don't see WWE actually showing the child the dictation so he/she can see it beforehand. I think that's because the "seeing" part was practiced during the copywork phase of WWE. Dictation advances to being able to picture in the mind instead of seeing on paper, because eventually you have to do that anyway to get words from the mind onto paper.

 

:iagree:

 

I actually agree with all of Colleen's post, though I only quoted the above. Before buying the teacher's guide for WWE, I had read in our 1st edition WTM about how to conduct dictation. Twice a week I choose passages and read them for dictation, according to the directions given in that edition of WTM. This happens in the way Colleen described above--having a picture in the mind, then transferring that to paper. These are non-studied dictations.

 

I have to go slowly and build up the difficulty with the passages I choose to use. Just as Colleen posted about having to *back up* a bit, I have to do the same sometimes. I can see the strong mental work required to think of not only how the words should be written on the paper, but also the correct punctuation as well.

Edited by Poke Salad Annie
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I'll change how I teach.

 

Also the setting for that particular subject could be a huge factor too. My dd7 does better with narration/dictation when we're cuddled in my big comfy bed...rather than anywhere else in the house....she improves by 75% by this.

 

I wouldn't have thought to write this here until I read this, but I find this to be the case with my dd10, too! It's definitely an example of "changing how you teach." When she is cuddled up right next to me on the couch, with my arm around her or a blanket over us or something, she does MUCH better with any of her lessons that are a challenge for her.

 

Ok, so I am going to let her read the passages herself and narrate and then work on 4 word dictations and go from there. I am not sure what I will do about writing for next year. I am going to look into all my options and see what I feel good about.

 

You might find something else you'd rather use, but if you find that you want to continue with WWE but are still struggling with the exact directions in each week (I'm guessing you're using the workbook?), I'd suggest getting the instructor guide. It gives you instructions, in multiple-week sections (say, "do this for weeks 10-18"), for how to conduct writing sessions. It gives a sample week at the beginning of each section. What I found most helpful, though, was to go through each multiple-week section and highlight the pertinent instructions. This helped give me a bigger view of what was to hopefully be accomplished during that section. And then I could adjust my teaching for each section, to my child, instead of being a slave to a daily set of instructions without really knowing what I was aiming for (but this is what *I* need as a teacher - others might not and I understand that). And, it helped me to know that I could "back up," as I previously stated, to the size of dictations from a previous section - whatever matches what my dd needs.

 

So I might end up doing a level 3 dictation with her, while doing somewhere in level 4 narrations. As long as I know how to progress in the long term, we're good to go. And the instructor guide helped me to know how to progress in the long term.

 

I see studied dictation as an intermediate step, bridging copywork to dictation... a step that not everyone may need. I don't think an author needs to foresee every conceivable situation or explicitly list every possible educational strategy for their product to be of value - or for those strategies to be legitimate.

 

I don't think studied dictation is illegitimate, and I didn't try to imply that it's illegitimate. You said, "Studied dictation means go over the passage a couple of times," and I assumed "go over" meant letting the student look at the passage beforehand. Maybe I misunderstood you. But because of my interpretation of what you said, I explained why I thought WWE didn't do it that way. And the WWE way makes sense to me because of the end goal of WWE, so I personally wouldn't show my dd the dictation beforehand. I'd rather shorten the dictation and build up again by talking about it, with dd, the way WWE instructs.

 

The OP was about frustration with using WWE, so I was just trying to address that. If kwickimom wants to go another route, then fine. I was just trying to help out in the context of her talking about WWE, though, because I sensed she hadn't given up on WWE completely.

Edited by Colleen in NS
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Oh sorry about the confusion....she has not been diagnosed, nor do I think she has a medical problem. Well, at least I didnt. Maybe I will go an look it up.

 

I constantly have to repeat things to her, and if i give her 2 directions she usually has to ask again about the second one. But she did fine in PS up until I took her out this year. She didnt have any problems following directions there or anything.

How is her spelling? Can she hear the difference between short i and short e? Does she hear both sounds in blends or does she just hear the one emphasized? These would be additional indicators of an auditory processing problem.

 

With working memory she would have difficulty memorizing math facts, or spelling lists.

 

I am a visual and auditory dyslexic and I made it through PS. I was excellent at compensating. But I couldn't spell at all, and while I could read I had comprehension problems with non fiction because I didn't use pictures in my mind to help me learn and remember it. I only use the pictures for fiction. It was in college that I fell to pieces and finally sought help. I consider myself a mild dyslexic.

 

Heather

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SWB doesn't have a degree in education remember.

 

Not that I put a ton of stock in everyone having a degree precisely for what they do...but she does have a Doctorate and a couple of MAs, she is a very published and seasoned author, her mother has her teaching degree (and then some), and we can't forget that SWB is a seasoned hs mom, and someone who is right there in the trenches with us. I don't think that the fact that she doesn't have a specific degree in education in anyway minimizes her qualification to write these books and advise parents in this regard! Much of what she is doing is helping us to head off the problems she sees manifested in the students to whom she teaches WRITING at one of the most competitive universities in the U.S.

 

WWE is an excellent program, but if it does not work for your child, there are other excellent programs out there. Honestly, I don't see a problem with just letting your child read over your shoulder and going from there. The end result is that we bring our children to a place where they can narrate, then summarize, then outline, then produce original works of writing on their own. If you lose sight of the goal, the little details of the process will kill you along the way. Don't get lost in the weeds...

 

If you haven't listened to SWB's audio lectures on teaching writing through the grade levels, you absolutely should. They are excellent--and comforting. :001_smile:

 

(please note: I not read all of the replies, but this one that I quoted caught my eye. What SWB does not have a degree in (but you do) is the study of your child. Do what is best for her, while keeping the end goal in mind.)

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Not that I put a ton of stock in everyone having a degree precisely for what they do...but she does have a Doctorate and a couple of MAs, she is a very published and seasoned author, her mother has her teaching degree (and then some), and we can't forget that SWB is a seasoned hs mom, and someone who is right there in the trenches with us. I don't think that the fact that she doesn't have a specific degree in education in anyway minimizes her qualification to write these books and advise parents in this regard! Much of what she is doing is helping us to head off the problems she sees manifested in the students to whom she teaches WRITING at one of the most competitive universities in the U.S.

 

:iagree:Also, I don't expect every curriculum to be tailored to specific learning disabilities. If a curriculum labels itself as being good for dyslexics, then I expect someone knowledgeable about dyslexia to have written the curriculum. But your basic "for the general population" curriculum? Nope. If my child has a learning disability, I'll need to learn how to accommodate that and select curriculum for that, but I don't expect every curriculum author to make their curriculum perfect for every learning style. That would be impossible, quite frankly!

 

What I've heard from SWB in her elementary writing curriculum lecture is that she knows more about childhood development than most educators in our country's schools tend to know. :tongue_smilie:For example, SWB doesn't recommend forcing creative writing on young children. How many schools have K and first graders doing creative writing using writing prompts? My own first grader came home last semester with a folder full of writing prompts that he had written down. He wrote NOTHING after most of them. He wasn't developmentally ready for that (like many first graders, particularly boys). It was a pointless exercise! Now copywork, narration, and dictation? THOSE are helping him. Those are developmentally appropriate. The way SWB has been leading us through it, in just 6 weeks of using the method, I have seen a huge difference. I can see his mind expanding, and I can see that he WILL be a good writer - when he's developmentally ready for that level of writing. In the meantime, his first grade class was writing PARAGRAPHS in school. First grade! And this is common in classrooms with teachers that have degrees in education. After witnessing the difference with my own son, I'd rather follow SWB than the education degrees.

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Ok, so I am going to let her read the passages herself and narrate and then work on 4 word dictations and go from there. I am not sure what I will do about writing for next year. I am going to look into all my options and see what I feel good about.

 

Sounds like a good plan. My son could regurgitate the entire story verbally but would then freeze when it came to writing. I had to toss WWE, too. He's much happier without it.

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:iagree:Also, I don't expect every curriculum to be tailored to specific learning disabilities.

 

Actually, having methods and options to work for a variety of learning modalities and needs is a hallmark of a good curriculum. It's what differentiates the single-produced homeschool market materials (one style based on their teaching methodology with their kids) from multi-author curriculum edited by a panel (broader teaching experience, lots of effort to include a variety of learning modality options in each lesson. It's what separates a niche product from one that can be taken into a school and generally be expected to work for the MAJORITY of kids. Clearly no one product works for every dc. But if you take say a BJU product, it will have enough modality options in the lesson (a story, a hands-on, a visual, an auditory component, even a b&w page option for the kids who can't handle color). It's all there. Sometimes a new user goes into a product thinking it "should work" if they do it right, and the product turns out to be too niched in methodology to be likely to work for all kids. Or it doesn't have the psychology and education experience behind it to realize WHY some kids might or might not be able to do the tasks it suggests.

 

I have no beef with WWE or SWB. I used WWE with my dd. What I am saying is that it isn't explaining to the user how to interpret the dc's inability to do the tasks or that struggles beyond the norm could actually be indications of issues (language processing problems, working memory deficits, etc.).

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I haven't read the other posts, so maybe someone has already suggested this, but have you listened to SWB's writing lectures on CD? They are well-worth listening to (several times, IMO), affordable, and downloadable (is that a word?).

 

The point is that if you become clear on your goals for each stage of the writing journey, you can become more flexible about how you get there. I agree, though, if there are constant tears, then something needs to change. Good luck!

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It's what separates a niche product from one that can be taken into a school and generally be expected to work for the MAJORITY of kids. Clearly no one product works for every dc. But if you take say a BJU product, it will have enough modality options in the lesson (a story, a hands-on, a visual, an auditory component, even a b&w page option for the kids who can't handle color). It's all there.

 

Curricula like that are often quite boring and "textbooky" though? Personally, I haven't yet seen a "meant for schools" curriculum that I really like. My son's school used Saxon math, which is meant for schools. He was bored to tears with it (and so was I). We've used CLE Reading, which is meant for schools, and that was boring and mostly busywork.

 

I have no beef with WWE or SWB. I used WWE with my dd. What I am saying is that it isn't explaining to the user how to interpret the dc's inability to do the tasks or that struggles beyond the norm could actually be indications of issues (language processing problems, working memory deficits, etc.).

 

Some of that I really wouldn't expect a curriculum to talk about? Does something like BJU really go into that detail about everything? :confused: CLE Reading didn't mention this type of thing at all.

 

SWB does talk in her WWE instructor text about if a child's hand hurts when writing past the age of 7, they need to be evaluated.

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I have not read all of the replies, but has your dd done any copywork? If you are jumping into WWE without doing copywork, you are missing an important step. Copying from a model starts the process of being able to hold words in your mind. Dictation is the next skill that builds on copywork.

 

If your child is having trouble, why not let her copy the dictation passages for a while, and then once that is a skill she has mastered, take the copywork and dictate it to her. Then you can progress to just dictation.

 

It is just like math, you wouldn't ask her to learn to multiply without understanding addition first, one skill builds on another.

 

Each skill takes time, slow and steady and you will get there without the tears.

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If your child is having trouble, why not let her copy the dictation passages for a while, and then once that is a skill she has mastered, take the copywork and dictate it to her. Then you can progress to just dictation.

 

It is just like math, you wouldn't ask her to learn to multiply without understanding addition first, one skill builds on another.

 

Each skill takes time, slow and steady and you will get there without the tears.

 

I was just remembering that step today: someone advised us to use the previous day's copywork for dictation as another method of progressing.

 

Kwickimom, your instincts to change something that's not working are dead on. Just remember, babysteps are still forward momentum.

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Oh sorry about the confusion....she has not been diagnosed, nor do I think she has a medical problem. Well, at least I didnt. Maybe I will go an look it up.

 

I constantly have to repeat things to her, and if i give her 2 directions she usually has to ask again about the second one. But she did fine in PS up until I took her out this year. She didnt have any problems following directions there or anything.

 

 

A speech therapist would be a good place to start if you were interested in an evaluation. If you just want to try things on your own, google auditory processing and come up with your own games/"therapy" ideas to work on this skill in a less stressful way. There are also strategies that will help a child process more easily like where a child sits and a speaker sits in the room.

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I was just remembering that step today: someone advised us to use the previous day's copywork for dictation as another method of progressing.

 

What you described here is exactly what 3/4 of WWE 2 is all about. You do copywork one day, dictate from that the next day (so that the child has seen it recently), and dictate from the child's own narration (but don't let him see the narration that you are writing for him) the next day (so that the child has heard himself say his own thoughts moments before, and can try to write from his mind's "picture" of his thoughts.).

 

Hmm...now that I'm thinking about it, Kathy, I can see that WWE 2's copywork one day and dictating from that copywork the next day is sort of like the "studied dictation" that I understood you to be describing. It's just that there's a day in between seeing it and writing it from the "picture" in his mind.

 

Anyway, it doesn't matter to me what people use - it's just that a lot of what I saw come up here really *is* addressed in one way or another in WWE. I'd hate to see someone "flinging it out the window" :D, when there might actually be the help in it that is being sought (I'm mostly talking about the instructor manual, too). Sometimes it's just one little sentence or phrase here or there, but when I combed through my book, so much of it finally made more sense to me. But I realize that I like to analyze these things, and others don't, and so something else might be more appealing to a different teacher's style of teaching. :D

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I'd definitely let her read it with you if it helps with comprehension. Right or wrong, I've been altering our dictation. We're in WWE 3 and dd8 can't do the lengthy dictations if they have unfamiliar language to her. I read up on CM, and I've been letting her study the dictation with me if it's challenging. We talk about the spelling of words and sentence structure. I'll admit too I sometimes allow her to dictate phrases at a time. She breezed through WWE2. I couldn't find much information about how to assist her with strengthening her dictation skills, so I'm giving this a try. I'm hoping it's still teaching her good sentence formation.

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