Negin Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Anything? Thanks. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I am honestly confused by this question. Lewis is very clear that Aslan is Christ. He doesn't even intend for Aslan to be a symbol of Christ, but Christ himself. I searched and found the letter that came to my mind when I read your question. A parent wrote Lewis concerned that her ds was becoming idolator b/c he loved Aslan more than Jesus. To sum up Lewis's response is to simply say he stated it as an impossibility b/c Aslan is Christ. Laurence Krieg had been concerned by his honest feelings of loving Aslan more than he loved Jesus. He was worried that he had started worshipping Aslan as an idol. In a letter dated 5 August 1955, CS Lewis answered Laurence’s concerns in a response (via a letter to his mother): Tell Laurence from me, with my love: Even if he was loving Aslan more than Jesus (I’ll explain in a moment why he can’t really be doing this) he would not be an idol-worshipper. If he was an idol worshipper he’d be doing it on purpose, whereas he’s now doing it because he can’t help doing it, and trying hard not to do it. But God knows quite well how hard we find it to love Him more than anyone or anything else, and He won’t be angry with us as long as we are trying. And He will help us. But Laurence can’t really love Aslan more than Jesus, even if he feels that’s what he is doing. For the things he loves Aslan for doing or saying are simply the things Jesus really did and said. So that when Laurence thinks he is loving Aslan, he is really loving Jesus: and perhaps loving Him more than he ever did before. Of course there is one thing Aslan has that Jesus has not – I mean, the body of a lion. (But remember, if there are other worlds and they need to be saved and Christ were to save them – as He would – He may really have taken all sorts of bodies in them which we don’t know about.) Now if Laurence is bothered because he finds the lion-body seems nicer to him than the man-body, I don’t think he need be bothered at all. God knows all about the way a little boy’s imagination works (He made it, after all) and knows that at a certain age the idea of talking and friendly animals is very attractive. So I don’t think He minds if Laurence likes the Lion-body. And anyway, Laurence will find as he grows older, that feeling (liking the lion-body better) will die away of itself, without his taking any trouble about it. So he needn’t bother. If I were Laurence I’d just say in my prayers something like this: “Dear God, if the things I’ve been thinking and feeling about those books are things You don’t like and are bad for me, please take away those feelings and thoughts. But if they are not bad, then please stop me from worrying about them. And help me every day to love You more in the way that really matters far more than any feelings or imaginations, by doing what You want and growing more like You.” That is the sort of thing I think Laurence should say for himself; but it would be kind and Christian-like if he then added, “And if Mr. Lewis has worried any other children by his books or done them any harm, then please forgive him and help him never to do it again.” Will this help? I am terribly sorry to have caused such trouble, and would take it as a great favor if you would write again and tell me how Laurence goes on. I shall of course have him daily in my prayers. He must be a corker of a boy: I hope you are prepared for the possibility he might turn out a saint. I daresay the saints’ mothers have, in some ways, a rough time! Yours sincerely, C. S. Lewis I'm not sure how a study of Narnia can be secular unless it studies the series in terms of the bible being myth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooblink Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I was thinking the same thing. The Chronicles of Narnia are blatant Christian allegory. I doubt any secular study would be worth its salt, because it could not possibly omit Christ and reflect Lewis's intent as the author. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMom2One Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: I'm with the others here 1000%. C.S. Lewis would roll over in his grave if he knew there might be a secular study guide to this very Christian work! Blessings, Lucinda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paula in PA Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I'm not sure how a study of Narnia can be secular unless it studies the series in terms of the bible being myth? Perhaps that's exactly what the OP would like? Also, it's my understanding that the Narnia series contains far more than just Christian allegory, alluding to other cultural mythology as well in some of the creatures/settings used. I know my dd would enjoy a study based on (and respecting) all aspects of the series, not just the Christian portion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyNellen Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 C.S. Lewis was a very sincere and passionate Christian. His Narnia series is written from a "Scripture is Truth" perspective. I don't think a secular study would be legitimate in any way. It would miss the whole point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin in DFW Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) You can read through the descriptions to determine if they are secular or Christian study guides. They are e-books so they can be purchased immediately, downloaded and printed. I purchase lit guides from CurrClick several times each school year...they are usually pretty good. I have the L-I-T Guide one for my son to use...I think it is $10.95...it has vocabulary, questions, activities, writing suggestions, etc. hth... Edited January 29, 2011 by Robin in DFW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I haven't used or seen these but I know The Logos School has a set. As I said, I have no idea if they are secular completely or their slant on the books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negin Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 I'm not sure how a study of Narnia can be secular unless it studies the series in terms of the bible being myth? No, I don't believe that that Bible is myth. I consider it a Holy Book, but since we're not Christians (although we do believe in Christ and love Him), it's not the only Holy Book in our eyes. We don't consider Christ to be God. We believe that God created the world. Just letting others know ... ;) I have simply reached a point where I try to avoid religious curriculum. As someone here stated so well: I like to add my faith in, not have to correct things we don't believe; so we use secular curricula now. That pretty much sums it up for me also. Thanks for the Curr Click and Logos suggestions. :) Will look into them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybear Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 C.S. Lewis was a very sincere and passionate Christian. His Narnia series is written from a "Scripture is Truth" perspective. I don't think a secular study would be legitimate in any way. It would miss the whole point. I read this when I was growing up. My upbringing was neither Christian or religious in any way. However, I still found the series to be wonderful and got a lot from it. I don't think I "missed the point." I just think it can be enjoyed from more than one perspective. I understand now the Christian allegory in the books and that it was Lewis' intention. I just wanted to point out that it has much to offer without the Christian perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negin Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share Posted January 30, 2011 My upbringing was neither Christian or religious in any way. However, I still found the series to be wonderful and got a lot from it. I don't think I "missed the point." I just think it can be enjoyed from more than one perspective.I understand now the Christian allegory in the books and that it was Lewis' intention. I just wanted to point out that it has much to offer without the Christian perspective. :iagree: I grew up in Wales, and my private school, was not a Christian one by any means. We were never taught any of the Narnia books from a Christian viewpoint. Ever. I agree fully that the Narnia series can be enjoyed from different perspectives and not just a Christian one. Only studying the series from a Christian viewpoint sounds a bit exclusionary to me. Almost as if to say that if you're not a Christian, you can't really appreciate or enjoy the books. Many of my fellow students and many Brits are atheists and have all sorts of beliefs and love the Narnia series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karis Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I often wonder about this... Jesus is the Word made flesh and would never contradict His Father. (who said have nothing to do with pagans(ism) and magic) ...and idolatry (yes, I read the above letter) How do Christians reconcile the mixture of Christianity and this work which has pagan elements and then tout it as a definitively Christian book? even as an allegory. I read somewhere that C.S. Lewis didn't intend to write it as a Christian book and that everything just kind of came together. It seems to be a secular book with a lot of "stuff" added. and Christians SEEK to make it symbolic of Christ. Can someone please address this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I often wonder about this... Jesus is the Word made flesh and would never contradict His Father. (who said have nothing to do with pagans(ism) and magic) ...and idolatry (yes, I read the above letter) How do Christians reconcile the mixture of Christianity and this work which has pagan elements and then tout it as a definitively Christian book? even as an allegory. I read somewhere that C.S. Lewis didn't intend to write it as a Christian book and that everything just kind of came together. It seems to be a secular book with a lot of "stuff" added. and Christians SEEK to make it symbolic of Christ. Can someone please address this? I believe you have misinterpreted Lewis's comment. When he first conceived of the story of The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, he didn't envision an allegory. However, there is a huge difference between conceiving a story and writing it. Here are direct quotes from Lewis: Some people seem to think that I began by asking myself how I could say something about Christianity to children; then fixed on the fairy tale as an instrument; then collected information about child-psychology and decided what age group I'd write for; then drew up a list of basic Christian truths and hammered out 'allegories' to embody them. This is all pure moonshine." But, that is only PART of the same essay: "Everything began with images; a faun carrying an umbrella, a queen on a sledge, a magnificent lion. At first there wasn't anything Christian about them; that element pushed itself in of its own accord.......I thought I saw how stories of this kind could steal past a certain inhibition which had paralysed much of my own religion in childhood." There is also a distinct difference between the magic of Narnia which is transformative and simple say these words hocus-pocus magic. As far as stuff being added and Christians seeking to make it an allegory.......read Lewis's own words and you would know that he completely intended the Chronicles to be what Christ might be in another world: If Aslan represented the immaterial Deity in the same way in which the Giant Despair represents despair, he would be an allegorical figure. In reality however he is an invention giving an imaginary answer to the question "What might Christ become like if there really were a world like Narnia and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours I attempted to find a single link that shows just how tied to the bible the Chronicles of Narnia are and found this one;http://cslewis.drzeus.net/papers/lionwitchallegory.html However, the list is too numerous to state that this is the single exegesis. Voyage of the Dawn Treader is so full of allusions that it is hard to imagine it any other way. Aslan tells the children they must find him in their world. When they ask if he is there, his response is "I am." And he originally appears as a lamb and changes into Aslan. He serves them fish while he is the lamb........ Can they be read as a fun story? Yes. But that doesn't change the intent of Lewis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleopatra Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Karis, I had a somewhat similar question before I had read the Chronicles of Narnia and before I had read anything about C.S. Lewis. Now that I've read most of his books and many of his essays, I might be able to help .... C.S. Lewis was an atheist who came to Christianity through logic. I think sometime in his teens he begged his father to bring him home from school (he detested the school he was attending). His father hired a tutor for him who was a staunch atheist but the most logical man Lewis had yet encountered. He taught him how to think logically (and probably contributed to his beliefs at that point in his life). Yet he taught Lewis the logic he felt helped him understand the truth of Christianity. Lewis said he was the most reluctant Christian and was brought to the faith kicking and struggling but the truth for him was plain to see and he came to know God. As for the myth elements, Lewis had always loved myths since he was a boy. A particular favourite of his was the Norse myths. In one of his books, (I can't remember which one), he says he believes that his love of myths were something that made him open to God. He says that the story of Christ is simply a true myth: a myth working on us in the same way as others, but with the tremendous difference; that it really happened. He believed that there is a discrepancy between the thought of something and the experience of it, and myth responds to that dilemma; it allows for reality to speak apart from abstraction. At the same time he said Christianity is much more than a myth and that it actually doesn't follow the normal patterns of myths (and he would know; he was an expert). Read his essay "Myth Became Fact" if you're curious to know more. Lewis communicates his beliefs much better than I ever could. :001_smile: As to his intentions when writing Narnia, it is true he did not set out to write a Christian allegory but that it happened as he wrote it. Why can't non-Christians study the series and include the Christian elements to really explore the depths of the books and learn about another faith? It doesn't mean that you have to believe it. Strangely, I think we do this all the time in other areas without realizing it. For example, we study about the Roman Empire (or Ancient Greece or the American Revolution) so when we read stories/histories/biographies etc. we are better able to 'mentally' travel to that time to appreciate even more about it. By employing these methods, it gives us a chance to appreciate things or people who are different from us (or often, in many ways, the same ;)). I think that certainly anyone can read the Narnia series and enjoy them immensely. But if you want to study them, that is where the problem crops up. He did intend to write them with Christian themes and if that is tossed away, the intention of the author is completely ignored as well as the wonderful depths of the books. Of course, one can choose to do that, but then it becomes something entirely different than what it is. KWIM? :001_smile: HTH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyNellen Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 :iagree: What she said! :-) I am not saying that you cannot enjoy the books from a secular viewpoint. The stories are fun and engaging. I was speaking specifically to the OP's question about a secular guide. I think it would be tough to write an entire guide and never mention the Christian allegory Lewis most definitely intended. THAT would miss the point. As 8FilltheHeart said, if you read any of Lewis' own writings about the Narnia books, it will be clear that he wrote them with Biblical teaching in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karis Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I often wonder about this... Jesus is the Word made flesh and would never contradict His Father. (who said have nothing to do with pagans(ism) and magic) ...and idolatry (yes, I read the above letter) How do Christians reconcile the mixture of Christianity and this work which has pagan elements and then tout it as a definitively Christian book? Can someone please address this? I get what everyone is saying about the literature. But can someone address the specific question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyNellen Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 OK, I agree with you that Jesus is the Word made flesh. I read/study/memorize my Bible regularly. The reason we read Narnia and adore it? Because after much reading, discussion, and prayer we have decided that reading about magic in a fictional book is not what the Scriptures are talking about when they forbid divination, sorcery, witchcraft, and interacting with mediums. They refer to the "act". Ultimately, I feel that if God didn't want us to read about magic, He would not have included so many stories which include magic in the inspired, God-breathed OT. Pharaoh's magicians, the witch of Endor, sacrificing to Molech, etc. If it is OK to read about magic/pagan acts in the Bible and extrapolate a lesson, I believe it is OK to do the same with uninspired fiction. We discuss darkness and truth, and my children understand right and wrong in a Biblical context. I would never, ever, ever try to convince someone to do something that goes against their conscience, so I am not trying to convince you to do anything. By all means, if you feel that it is wrong, do not do it. I am merely explaining why my family has decided it is something that is OK for us to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyNellen Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I'm not entirely sure if this question is addressed to me, or even if I understand you correctly. Since allegory equates objects and lessons outside the narrative with those within the narrative, it makes sense that we would discuss the Biblical parallels which the allegory explains. Therefore, we have had rich times discussing the Christ-like qualities of Aslan, why only certain people can see Him, why one child cannot know how another child's story ends, etc. Does that answer your question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 :iagree: What she said! :-) I am not saying that you cannot enjoy the books from a secular viewpoint. The stories are fun and engaging. I was speaking specifically to the OP's question about a secular guide. I think it would be tough to write an entire guide and never mention the Christian allegory Lewis most definitely intended. THAT would miss the point. As 8FilltheHeart said, if you read any of Lewis' own writings about the Narnia books, it will be clear that he wrote them with Biblical teaching in mind. A secular guide doesn't have to avoid mentioning the Christian allegory. Such a guide would indeed be utterly worthless. However, it doesn't need to assume the truth of the Christian story in order to discuss the allegory. I would assume it'd be similar to the "Bible as literature" classes offered by many secular universities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyNellen Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Agreed. I guess I am assuming "secular" to be without the mention of the Christian allegory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karis Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 OK, we have decided that reading about magic in a fictional book is not what the Scriptures are talking about when they forbid divination, sorcery, witchcraft, and interacting with mediums. They refer to the "act". Ultimately, I feel that if God didn't want us to read about magic, He would not have included so many stories which include magic in the inspired, God-breathed OT. Pharaoh's magicians, the witch of Endor, sacrificing to Molech, etc. If it is OK to read about magic/pagan acts in the Bible and extrapolate a lesson, I believe it is OK to do the same with uninspired fiction. We discuss darkness and truth, and my children understand right and wrong in a Biblical context. . I see... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testimony Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I do not know of any secular guides to Narnia. Blessings, Karen http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deeke Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I have this site bookmarked, there are links to many different guides and MANY secular guides. http://litplans.com/authors/C_S_Lewis.html I have one I used by Carson-Deliosa Publishing, for The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe for grades 2-5. Hope this help. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin in DFW Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 CurrClick sells several secular guides from secular publishers...I have one of them...there are probably 3 or 4 for varying ages... These do exist...public school kids read this series and I doubt they approach from it an exclusively Christian viewpoint as the aim of ps is to be as all-inclusive or neutral as possible. hth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I was looking at this one earlier: Novel Units Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyFourSons Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) I have this site bookmarked, there are links to many different guides and MANY secular guides. http://litplans.com/authors/C_S_Lewis.html I have one I used by Carson-Deliosa Publishing, for The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe for grades 2-5. Hope this help. :001_smile: I used many Carson Delosa guides when I was a teacher, it is a great company. But, if you are not going to discuss Christianity when you read these books, it is really not worth examining them closely at all. That is the point of the books. If you are going to read them for the entertainment value, I would use them as a read aloud only, which means you probably wouldn't need a teacher's guide. However, the intent of the author was to write Christian allegory, and so to read them for pure entertainment is to miss much of it's meaning, even if you disagree with that meaning. Personally, I like to fully understand an author's meaning when I am reading, even if I do not agree with his or her views. I do think it is not academically appropriate to study a work of literature and not study the intent of the author, the purpose of the work, and the author's culture. For example, when we read the Arabian Nights we discussed the culture it was written in to have a fuller understanding of the stories. In the literature classes I have taken we have read both the Bible and the Koran, and discussed elements of Jewish, Christian, and Muslim culture in reference to these works. When you read the Lord of the Flies in high school, you discuss the symbolism that is found throughout the book, it is a part of the discussion. I think the same should be done for literature written with a specific religious theme in mind, and religious symbolism should be treated just as any other type of symbolism in literature would be. I'm not saying you need to study the Christian themes in the Chronicles of Narnia from a religious standpoint, but the Christian aspects should be discussed in order to truly understand the work. The problem is that many "secular" guides are written for school teachers, and I know from my own professional experience that many public school materials avoid references to Christianity even when it is perfectly relevant to the subject being taught. Not all the time, but many times that is the case. If you would like to explore the Christian themes and Biblical references from the point of view that they are not your own beliefs, but the belief of the authors, it seems like it would be useful to use a "Christian" teacher guide as a reference point for yourself, and just adjust it as needed for your own home. If only they would publish an edition of Cliffs Notes! Edited January 31, 2011 by MyFourSons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyFourSons Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Here is link I wanted to include earlier, but I just found it again. It is indeed a secular guide, as it discusses the themes and some of the symbolism in the book without referencing the biblical stories or Christian doctrine behind the symbolism: http://img.sparknotes.com/content/sparklife/sparktalk/narnia_chart.pdf This guide mentions that Lewis uses the apple as a symbol several times, but it doesn't explain why. It mentions the symbols that Lewis uses, but it doesn't give a full explanation as to the meaning of these symbols. For example, it mentions that Lewis uses the number 7 throughout the series, and gives examples, but gives no explanation as to why that number is actaully significant. Of course, Christians will recognize that it is used because it is a sacred number within Christianity, and so why not include this in the explanation? I'm not saying you should read the Bible in order to read these books, but including some Christian background knowledge in your study of a Christian book seems to be a more academic approach if you actually want to understand what the author is trying to say and what his symbolism is standing for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I am honestly confused by this question. Lewis is very clear that Aslan is Christ. He doesn't even intend for Aslan to be a symbol of Christ, but Christ himself. I searched and found the letter that came to my mind when I read your question. A parent wrote Lewis concerned that her ds was becoming idolator b/c he loved Aslan more than Jesus. To sum up Lewis's response is to simply say he stated it as an impossibility b/c Aslan is Christ. I'm not sure how a study of Narnia can be secular unless it studies the series in terms of the bible being myth? C.S. Lewis was a very sincere and passionate Christian. His Narnia series is written from a "Scripture is Truth" perspective. I don't think a secular study would be legitimate in any way. It would miss the whole point. Huh. I guess I don't understand this point of view. Of course Lewis was a Christian. Of course we all know he wrote the novels as an allegory and a way of introducing Christianity to children. But why can't the works be read/analyzed/whatever from a secular point of view? In our home, we read lots and lots of works whose religious views we do not share. We try to learn enough about the author's viewpoint and beliefs to understand each work in that context. But that certainly isn't (and I think shouldn't be) to say that we can't also read the work in a "secular" way. And, honestly, I think there's a lot more to the books, worthy of study, than just the religious aspects. I was raised by athiests (or, more specifically, an agnostic and an athiest). I found Narnia on my own in the library one summer while visiting my grandparents. The Christianity went right over my head, but my parents were outright scornful when I told them I'd read (and re-read) all of the books. For someone like me, a guide that explained about Lewis and what he was trying to do would have been extremely valuable. I wasn't well versed enough in the Bible to even recognize the elements. I will say that loving Narnia as I do has still not converted me. I'm religious, but not a Christian. Nonetheless, I can point to Narnia--and finding it when I did--as a significant element in shaping my own beliefs. It still would have been nice to know what he was talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Exploring C.S. Lewis' the Chronicles of Narnia There are "sourcebooks" for other books (Harry Potter for example). But because C.S. Lewis' Narnia is blatantly Christian, it refers to his allegories, scripture, etc. It also discusses the timelines between the books and events in Lewis' own life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyFourSons Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 CurrClick sells several secular guides from secular publishers...I have one of them...there are probably 3 or 4 for varying ages... These do exist...public school kids read this series and I doubt they approach from it an exclusively Christian viewpoint as the aim of ps is to be as all-inclusive or neutral as possible. hth As a former teacher, I would just like to say that being "all inclusive" often means mentioning every perspective but the Christian one. I am Christian, but I am not overly sensitive in this area, but when you are reading a book with Christian symbolism, you should talk about that symbolism, just as you would when reading a book from any other religion and/or culture. If I were reading a Muslim or Hindu text I would expect the same. You can't really divorce religion from a text that is full of religious symbolism, it is oversimplifying something, which is never academically sound in my opinion. In other words, if you choose not to discuss the Christian elements of the story, read it casually and do not use it for literature study, or avoid it all together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyNellen Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Huh. I guess I don't understand this point of view. ...... For someone like me, a guide that explained about Lewis and what he was trying to do would have been extremely valuable. I wasn't well versed enough in the Bible to even recognize the elements. ....... It still would have been nice to know what he was talking about. We are in agreement. I am saying that a completely secular guide, one that does not address the Christian allegory at all, would miss the point. I don't think it has to assume that the reader is Christian, or try to "convert" the reader, or expect any Biblical knowledge on the part of the reader. But it should most definitely acknowledge and explain the Christian component. Agreed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 We are in agreement. I am saying that a completely secular guide, one that does not address the Christian allegory at all, would miss the point. I don't think it has to assume that the reader is Christian, or try to "convert" the reader, or expect any Biblical knowledge on the part of the reader. But it should most definitely acknowledge and explain the Christian component. Agreed? Absolutely agreed, but that's kind of what I assumed the question intended? I think there is a misconception about the use of the word "secular." When I (and most of the people I know who use secular materials) say we want secular items, what we're looking for is materials that do not promote or assume belief in a particular religious system. We are not talking about materials that ignore or lack any mention of religion. For example, I would not expect to read a book about ancient Greece without some discussion of what we now call their "mythology." But I would have little to no interest in a book about that civilization that assumes my belief system is the same as theirs and that it is the one true path. For me, an author's or a civilization's religious beliefs are extremely valuable as context for reading the work. But I don't want or need a study guide that insists on telling me those beliefs are absolutely right. Does that make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Wizards Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I think there is a misconception about the use of the word "secular." When I (and most of the people I know who use secular materials) say we want secular items, what we're looking for is materials that do not promote or assume belief in a particular religious system. We are not talking about materials that ignore or lack any mention of religion. For example, I would not expect to read a book about ancient Greece without some discussion of what we now call their "mythology." But I would have little to no interest in a book about that civilization that assumes my belief system is the same as theirs and that it is the one true path. For me, an author's or a civilization's religious beliefs are extremely valuable as context for reading the work. But I don't want or need a study guide that insists on telling me those beliefs are absolutely right. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyD Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 I think there is a misconception about the use of the word "secular." When I (and most of the people I know who use secular materials) say we want secular items, what we're looking for is materials that do not promote or assume belief in a particular religious system. We are not talking about materials that ignore or lack any mention of religion. For example, I would not expect to read a book about ancient Greece without some discussion of what we now call their "mythology." But I would have little to no interest in a book about that civilization that assumes my belief system is the same as theirs and that it is the one true path. For me, an author's or a civilization's religious beliefs are extremely valuable as context for reading the work. But I don't want or need a study guide that insists on telling me those beliefs are absolutely right. Does that make sense? :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin in DFW Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 As a former teacher, I would just like to say that being "all inclusive" often means mentioning every perspective but the Christian one. I am Christian, but I am not overly sensitive in this area, but when you are reading a book with Christian symbolism, you should talk about that symbolism, just as you would when reading a book from any other religion and/or culture. If I were reading a Muslim or Hindu text I would expect the same. You can't really divorce religion from a text that is full of religious symbolism, it is oversimplifying something, which is never academically sound in my opinion. In other words, if you choose not to discuss the Christian elements of the story, read it casually and do not use it for literature study, or avoid it all together. The OP specifically asked for secular guides for these books...I gave her some suggestions. All I was trying to get across is that there are ways to study these works from a non-Christian viewpoint...which certainly doesn't mean NOT discussing the author's Christian views...it means that the study focuses on all elements of the book, of which there are many, not just the religious elements. You are free to study the books any way you like, just as I am...whether it be for literature study or casual reading...I would never tell someone they should avoid reading books for whatever purpose they choose because I disagree with their beliefs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin in DFW Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Absolutely agreed, but that's kind of what I assumed the question intended? I think there is a misconception about the use of the word "secular." When I (and most of the people I know who use secular materials) say we want secular items, what we're looking for is materials that do not promote or assume belief in a particular religious system. We are not talking about materials that ignore or lack any mention of religion. For example, I would not expect to read a book about ancient Greece without some discussion of what we now call their "mythology." But I would have little to no interest in a book about that civilization that assumes my belief system is the same as theirs and that it is the one true path. For me, an author's or a civilization's religious beliefs are extremely valuable as context for reading the work. But I don't want or need a study guide that insists on telling me those beliefs are absolutely right. Does that make sense? and YES again...:iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyFourSons Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) The OP specifically asked for secular guides for these books...I gave her some suggestions. All I was trying to get across is that there are ways to study these works from a non-Christian viewpoint...which certainly doesn't mean NOT discussing the author's Christian views...it means that the study focuses on all elements of the book, of which there are many, not just the religious elements. You are free to study the books any way you like, just as I am...whether it be for literature study or casual reading...I would never tell someone they should avoid reading books for whatever purpose they choose because I disagree with their beliefs... You misunderstood my motive and what I was trying to say, I wasn't trying to tell anyone they should avoid reading anything. I was trying to say that approaching every book from a secular viewpoint is not always going to lead to a full understanding of the material. If you are simply reading for enjoyment, it is a non-issue, read anything you want in any way you want. But if you are examining the text with children in an educational capacity, it is a fair argument to make and it is certainly worth looking at why and how we examine literature for the sake of education. It is a conversation about academics and education, not dogma. It is also an issue at the heart of a "liberal arts" education that focuses so much on history and literature. I did not mean to sound heated or catty to offend anyone, I'm sorry if I have done so. I just don't like the current white washing of history and literature as I see it in our schools and in our culture. To me, avoiding the Christian message in a book study in order to avoid offending anyone is the same as censoring words or passages that are offensive in books, instead of having a frank discussion about those words and why they are used (as in Huck Finn and Tom Sawer). I am against censoring the author, I think we should just read things in context and then discuss our differing viewpoints. It is the libertarian in me speaking out I guess! Edited February 1, 2011 by MyFourSons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 For me, an author's or a civilization's religious beliefs are extremely valuable as context for reading the work. But I don't want or need a study guide that insists on telling me those beliefs are absolutely right. Does that make sense? It does absolutely make sense. I think that many of us have had the experience of secular meaning religious need not apply*. It is sometimes hard to know when someone asks for a secular resource if they are asking for something that has no reference to religion or for something that mentions religion but does not assume that one particular religion is correct or the viewpoint of the reader. I've been working my way through a book titled Tales Before Narnia: The Roots of Modern Fantasy and Science Fiction edited by Douglas A. Anderson. This is a collection of 19th and early 20th century stories that Lewis mentioned enjoying. In some of them you can see elements or themes that he wove into his own work (for example, a story by E. Nesbit where a girl goes to an enchanted country through a wardrobe in a spare room). Each story is prefaced with a little commentary about why it was chosen and what Lewis' relationship with the story or author was. Much of the commentary is based on Lewis' letters or other writing. *I've had the experience of being told that biographies of Martin Luther, Old Testament stories and Jewish Holiday story retellings by Jim Weiss and Noah's Ark toddler puzzles were not allowed by a particular program because they were too religious. I was also once part of an inclusive homeschooler email group that required members to demonstrate eligibility by already being members of an inclusive group that met in real life (though they did lift this restriction when I pointed out that it seemed inconsistent). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ondreeuh Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Scholastic has one for $6 - not sure if it's what you're looking for, but you can preview the whole thing. The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negin Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 Scholastic has one for $6 - not sure if it's what you're looking for, but you can preview the whole thing.The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe Thanks so much. This looks really good. I just wish that they had one for each of the books in the series. It's very unlikely that we'll go back to reading The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe. We've read it twice already ... Right now, we're enjoying The Silver Chair. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ondreeuh Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) The Silver Chair isn't listed here, but Glencoe has a big list of study guides here. Bookrags has one for The Silver Chair available to purchase, and you can browse it here. Edited February 2, 2011 by ondreeuh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negin Posted February 3, 2011 Author Share Posted February 3, 2011 The Silver Chair isn't listed here, but Glencoe has a big list of study guides here. Bookrags has one for The Silver Chair available to purchase, and you can browse it here. Thank you so much for these great links :grouphug:. This is perfect. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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