PS question - where does all the money go?

[galtgrl]

This really doesn't affect me (except as a taxpayer :D), as our kids are not in ps, but...where does all the money go?!

 

We were talking to friends recently about junior high and high school sports, and they told us that even in junior high, it's pay to play for volleyball, soccer, baseball, basketball, and football. So, they're paying for their kids to be on the team (whether they actually play in games or not), not just for whatever uniforms they need.

 

Also, the schools around here charge $5-6/adult to watch the games...if both parents go to every game, that can be $50 easily. They also charge a buck or two less for under age 18 to watch. :001_huh: Most of the kids are involved in more than 1 sport, so multiply that $50 by 2 or even 3, just to watch!

 

I just don't get it. I played sports in high school, and back then we never had to pay for anything other than a jersey with team colors. There was never a charge for parents to come watch their kids play, other than football.

 

My mind is boggled. The schools get people to spend their own money on individual school supplies, classroom supplies (remember that thread?), science lab fees, art supply fees, sports participation fees, AND charge them to come watch their own kids play sports. The amount of money spent per student by the district, however, is more than ever. So where does the money go?

 

Ok, I'm done. It just makes me glad (again) that we homeschool.:001_smile:

[bettyandbob]

A good chunk has to fund special ed programs, which are very expensive and even get supplemented by federal funds. If the district does a poor job with spec ed they could be spending extra $$ defending themselves in lawsuits and paying to place spec ed kids in private schools because they didn't do what they were supposed to in the first place.

 

There is another chunk for liability ins for all the people in the school. My neighborhood high school has 2000 students, plus faculty and staff, there has to be ins for anyone getting injured.

 

Then there is up to date lab equipment. Computer equipment for science, math and business classes.

 

I have to go but besides all the waste I'm sure people will come up with there are lots of places the schools are legitimately spending money.

[Carrie12345]

I've read my district's budget, and I'm still not sure!

[Julie in Austin]

Former teacher here . . . a big chunk goes to special ed. When you hear that a district spends, say, 10K per pupil, that isn't a very useful number. What that probably means is that they spend 40K per special ed pupil and 5K per regular ed. (I obviously just made those numbers up, but you get the idea.)

 

Our country decided that we would provide an inclusive education to every student possible. People may disagree as to whether that is a good policy or not; I'm conflicted myself. But what that looked like on the ground to me as a teacher was that one of my students had a full-time aide who accompanied her to all of her classes and helped her participate. (Not that that actually happened, but that was the idea.)

[Dobela]

This really doesn't affect me (except as a taxpayer :D), as our kids are not in ps, but...where does all the money go?!

 

We were talking to friends recently about junior high and high school sports, and they told us that even in junior high, it's pay to play for volleyball, soccer, baseball, basketball, and football. So, they're paying for their kids to be on the team (whether they actually play in games or not), not just for whatever uniforms they need.

 

Also, the schools around here charge $5-6/adult to watch the games...if both parents go to every game, that can be $50 easily. They also charge a buck or two less for under age 18 to watch. :001_huh: Most of the kids are involved in more than 1 sport, so multiply that $50 by 2 or even 3, just to watch!

 

I just don't get it. I played sports in high school, and back then we never had to pay for anything other than a jersey with team colors. There was never a charge for parents to come watch their kids play, other than football.

 

My mind is boggled. The schools get people to spend their own money on individual school supplies, classroom supplies (remember that thread?), science lab fees, art supply fees, sports participation fees, AND charge them to come watch their own kids play sports. The amount of money spent per student by the district, however, is more than ever. So where does the money go?

 

Ok, I'm done. It just makes me glad (again) that we homeschool.:001_smile:

Some of it really depends on the individual school. Each school I have taught in has different amounts for the ame areas of budgets.

 

Usually a big bunch is salary and benefits for employees.

 

The next cut is sports. Part of the reason they take so much money is equipment upkeep. For example, one local football team pays several thousand dollars per year just to have their helmets inspected at the end of the season. This is required by law. The helmets cannot have dents beyond a certain size or cracks or anything else that could compromise safety.

 

I don't know about other areas, but it is common here for the concessions and admission costs to games to go directly to band programs. Sometimes that is the only money they receive and it helps cover instruments for students to rent, travel expenses to play in games or contests, uniforms, and more.

 

Some of the money is obviously misspent. At one district there wereso many administrators that were earning over 100K that their salaries wer more than all the other teachers and staff combined.

[Daisy]

My husband says...

 

Salaries (Teachers, counselors, security, custodians, aides, specialists, the list goes on and on).

Administrative costs

Building maintenance

Utilities (HUGE, HUGE cost)

Bond measure repayments

Buying land

Building schools

Special education

Support (Parent university/classes, preschool head start type programs, etc.)

Food services

Transportation

Curriculum purchasing

 

That's just the biggies.

[wapiti]

Well, here's one example of a budget. I don't know how well this will post, so bear with me. Ack, it's not showing like I thought. Sorry!

 

The General Fund, which as you can see below makes up about two thirds of the budget, is as follows:

 

 

EXPENDITURES

Salaries

Administrator --------------------------- 15,608,231

Teachers, Counselors, Certified --------- 168,815,649

Technical -------------------------------- 3,715,476

Paraprofessional - Aides ----------------- 15,542,318

Office Support -------------------------- 12,208,226

Crafts, Trade, Nutrition & Custodians ----- 10,713,216

Non-Job Class Specific Salaries

Substitutes ------------------------------ 4,046,708

Pay for Performance ----------------------- 574,693

Longevity/Certified Knowledge Pay -------- 3,400,000

Separation/Severance --------------------- 400,000

Other Salaries ---------------------------- 3,570,615

SBB Staffing Reductions - --------------- (13,072,321)

Operational Salary Reductions - ---------- (3,700,000)

Subtotal - Salaries ---------------------- 238,595,132

 

 

 

 

Benefits

Life Insurance ------------------------------ 299,238

Long Term Disability ------------------------ 437,984

Medicare --------------------------------- 3,465,668

PERA, Employers' Share ------------------ 34,410,858

College Credit Reimbursement --------------- 100,000

Medical Insurance ----------------------- 29,417,721

Dental Insurance --------------------------- 627,916

Vision Insurance ------------------------------ 1,689

Evaluation Incentives ----------------------- 460,000

Quality Seperation ------------------------ 2,600,000

Subtotal - Benefits ---------------------- 71,821,074

 

 

 

 

Operating ------------------------------- 39,606,896

Charter School Transfer ------------------ 27,494,605

Capital Reserve

Capital Projects Transfer ------------------ 3,327,000

Operating -------------------------------- 6,492,709

Insurance Reserve Fund Transfer ---------- 3,699,141

Medical Fund Transfer --------------------- 3,616,710

Athletic & Activities Fund Transfer --------- 3,887,406

On-Line Fund Transfer -------------------- 18,602,638

Transportation Fund Transfer ------------- 12,013,632

Contingency ~ Reserve for Schools -------- 2,500,000

 

 

TOTAL EXPENDITURES ------------------- 436,656,943

 

CHANGE IN FUND BALANCE 2,490,695

BEGINNING FUND BALANCE 4,573,704

ENDING FUND BALANCE 7,064,399

LETTER OF CREDIT 12,700,000

TOTAL ENDING FUND BALANCE $19,764,399

 

 

 

 

 

 

The following numbers are (1) Fund (2) Budget Per Pupil and (3) % Budget. Sorry they're all smashed together! I'd separate them if someone tells me how (spaces didn't work)

 

 

 

 

General Fund --------------- $ 476,977,336 ------ $ 8 ,376------ 66.2%

Debt Service/

Bond Redemption Fund --------- 61,047,544 ------ 1 ,072 ------ 8.5%

Building Fund ------------------ 61,397,721 ------ 1 ,078 ------ 8.5%

Capital Reserve Fund ---------- 15,268,246 ------ 2 68 ------ 2.1%

Capital Projects Fund --------------------------------- - ------ 0.0%

Transportation Fund - -------------------------------- - ------ 0.0%

Govtl Designated Purpose

Grant Fund ---------------------- 15,646,514 ------ 2 75 ------ 2.2%

School Discretionary Fund --------- 1,704,000 ------ 3 0 ------ 0.2%

Nutrition Services Fund ----------- 16,292,156 ------ 2 86 ------ 2.3%

Child Care Fund ------------------- 9,489,398 ------ 1 67 ------ 1.3%

Private Purpose Trusts ----------------- 52,000 ------ 1 ------ 0.0%

Pupil Activity Fund ------------------ 3,076,000 ------ 5 4 ------ 0.4%

Medical Self-Insurance Fund ------- 43,694,440------ 7 67------ 6.1%

Insurance Reserve Fund ------------ 3,839,312 ------ 6 7 ------ 0.5%

Athletics and Activities Fund -------- 8,720,579 ------ 1 53 ------ 1.2%

Mil Levy Override Fund -------------- 3,123,555 ------ 5 5 ------ 0.4%

 

 

TOTAL -------------------------- $ 720,328,801 ------ $ 1 2,650 ------ 100.0%

Edited October 7, 2010 by wapiti

[Photo Ninja]

I found out school district's budget from last year.

 

About 78% of the total revenue comes from the state. The rest is from federal and other sources.

 

About 79% of the total expenditures is employee costs (salary, insurance, etc.).

 

Special ed money: about 68% of the needed money comes from the state and federal gov't, and the rest must be funded from the general fund, which is primarily committed to employee payroll. Obviously some of the employee payroll is related to special ed.

 

Books and Supplies - about 9%

Operating Expenses and Services - about 10%

 

Without cutting staff - which encompasses teachers, administrators, janitors, office clerks, etc. - I can't see any way for our district to cut the budget. There is too much percentage of the budget committed to employee costs. Operating expenses can't be cut enough to make much difference if the total expenditures must be cut 15 - 20% to balance the budget.

[MotherGoose]

Lots of times the aides for special ed kids--and it's not unrealistic to say some of the kids will have one to one attention--is at least partially paid through Medicaid. I used to be a social worker. Some kids might have aides because of their behavior, others because of medical needs.

[Murmer]

A lot goes toward salary and benefits as with any business...sadly the highest paid are administrative people who don't interact with the children and don't get frozen salaries when there is a budget need (I actually think our super got a raise...but the teachers took a pay cut hmmmm)

Also transportation is expensive especially rural areas and then heat, electricity cost a lot.

[kewb]

A fairly decent chunk in my district goes to the lawyers.

[unsinkable]

A fairly decent chunk in my district goes to the lawyers.

 

Uh, totally unrelated but how much is the shipping on your sampler pack of doggie treats?

 

I'd like to save up some money and try them! I mean, have my dog try them!

[kewb]

I ship priority mail, so it depends on your zip code. I believe the top shipping I have seen is $5.00 to get to California. The sampler package weighs approx 2lbs.

[unsinkable]

I ship priority mail, so it depends on your zip code. I believe the top shipping I have seen is $5.00 to get to California. The sampler package weighs approx 2lbs.

 

awesome!

 

That sonds great! When I get the $ to order, I'll put my board name down.

[kewb]

Thank you.

[2squared]

The salaries and benefits of the teachers are a huge cost. My dd takes PE/music/art at our public school. Her "homeroom" teacher probably makes $35K in salary plus a boatload of benefits. Divide that by the 15 kids in her class, and that's a hefty chunk of change just for the homeroom teacher.

 

Think of all the personnel at the school to make the system work - homeroom teacher, PE teacher, music teacher, art teacher, special ed staff, speech and language, lunch room staff, nurse, secretary, principal, bus drivers, custodian - those salaries and benefits add up quickly.

 

After you pay the staff, you have to pay for utilities, building maintenance, parking lots, playgrounds, buses, insurance, and who knows what else. It's not cheap to maintain my house; I can't imagine what the bills for an entire school would look like.

 

As far as sports....our fees go to the athletic program which pays for the coaches, equipment, transportation, and referees. Transportation for us is huge. We live very rurally at the edge of the state, and most of the schools we play against are easily 1.5 hours away. Quite often our sports teams either leave in the mornings for their games (on school days) and/or they return around midnight. By the time they drive, play, and return, it's a whole day.

[unsinkable]

The salaries and benefits of the teachers are a huge cost. My dd takes PE/music/art at our public school. Her "homeroom" teacher probably makes $35K in salary plus a boatload of benefits. Divide that by the 15 kids in her class, and that's a hefty chunk of change just for the homeroom teacher.

 

Think of all the personnel at the school to make the system work - homeroom teacher, PE teacher, music teacher, art teacher, special ed staff, speech and language, lunch room staff, nurse, secretary, principal, bus drivers, custodian - those salaries and benefits add up quickly.

 

After you pay the staff, you have to pay for utilities, building maintenance, parking lots, playgrounds, buses, insurance, and who knows what else. It's not cheap to maintain my house; I can't imagine what the bills for an entire school would look like.

 

As far as sports....our fees go to the athletic program which pays for the coaches, equipment, transportation, and referees. Transportation for us is huge. We live very rurally at the edge of the state, and most of the schools we play against are easily 1.5 hours away. Quite often our sports teams either leave in the mornings for their games (on school days) and/or they return around midnight. By the time they drive, play, and return, it's a whole day.

 

In NY, public school teachers' salaries are online. You can look up all your kids' teachers' salaries if you want.

 

Some teachers make more than $80,000 -- that goes a long way around here.

[LG Gone Wild]

This really doesn't affect me (except as a taxpayer :D), as our kids are not in ps, but...where does all the money go?!

 

We were talking to friends recently about junior high and high school sports, and they told us that even in junior high, it's pay to play for volleyball, soccer, baseball, basketball, and football. So, they're paying for their kids to be on the team (whether they actually play in games or not), not just for whatever uniforms they need.

 

Also, the schools around here charge $5-6/adult to watch the games...if both parents go to every game, that can be $50 easily. They also charge a buck or two less for under age 18 to watch. :001_huh: Most of the kids are involved in more than 1 sport, so multiply that $50 by 2 or even 3, just to watch!

 

I just don't get it. I played sports in high school, and back then we never had to pay for anything other than a jersey with team colors. There was never a charge for parents to come watch their kids play, other than football.

 

My mind is boggled. The schools get people to spend their own money on individual school supplies, classroom supplies (remember that thread?), science lab fees, art supply fees, sports participation fees, AND charge them to come watch their own kids play sports. The amount of money spent per student by the district, however, is more than ever. So where does the money go?

 

Ok, I'm done. It just makes me glad (again) that we homeschool.:001_smile:

 

:bigear:

 

I am glad you asked. I've always wondered that as well. Poor parents are getting nickel and dimed (rather large nickels and dimes I might add) to death. OTH, private schools are little like that as well.

 

That's another reason why I am partial hsing. I would constantly be saying, "What? Another [very large ugly word] fee?" My kids would then report back to their teachers my exact reaction. Oops.

[HS Mom in NC]

There is compelling evidence that the official reported cost of public education is lower (sometimes significantly) than the actual cost of public education.

 

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=11432

[mcconnellboys]

Administrative costs. Every school in our country is hugely over-staffed administratively (not necessarily at the school level, but at the county, district, or state level). All state departments of education should be disbanded....

[angela in ohio]

A lot goes toward salary and benefits as with any business...sadly the highest paid are administrative people who don't interact with the children and don't get frozen salaries when there is a budget need (I actually think our super got a raise...but the teachers took a pay cut hmmmm)

Also transportation is expensive especially rural areas and then heat, electricity cost a lot.

 

My dh is an administrator. He (and the rest of administration) took a pay freeze when the teachers did not. He is paid more now than when he taught. He also works about 30 hours more per week than he did as a teacher and has the responsiblity of hundreds of teachers and students in his hands, as well as years of advanced training that he paid for himself. He certainly doesn't do it for the money, as he could easily make twice as much in the private sector with the same level of education and responsibility.

 

No, he doesn't interact with the students as much anymore. He does, however, train the teachers, make sure that students are being treated properly (for example, disciplining teachers who abuse a child, which is a long ridiculous process thanks to the unions,) etc. What he does directly influences hundreds of students.

[angela in ohio]

Many have already been listed: building and maintenance, transportation, salaries. You need all of those things to have a school, and the money has to come from somewhere.

 

I agree that special education is a HUGE part of the budget and getting bigger every year. If a student has a one-on-one aide (which every parent wants now,) the salary of that person is entirely on that student, plus a portion of the therapists and teacher's salaries. Everyone talks about "all the extra money" schools get for special ed students. It's tiny compared to what they have to spend. Liek pp said, when they say $7,000 or whatever per student, it's not really an even amount per student.

[wapiti]

Just to keep some perspective here, according to the district budget that I posted for a district for this year, paraprofessional/aides' salaries total 15M, compared to 168M for teachers' salaries, compared to a 720M total budget. Obviously special ed is more than just aides' salaries, but that's only 2% of the total budget. A lot, to be sure, but still 98% is spent on other stuff. The state pension plan, PERA, is more than double what is spent on aides, FWIW. I am not making any particular value judgment on those amounts, but I think it's helpful to look at actual numbers rather than to make guesses based on what you "see."

 

If you really want to know what your district is spending its money on, why not start with looking at the district's website. The budget is probably there somewhere, as was the one I posted.

[galtgrl]

Well, I guess what I'm trying to figure out is why it's so different now, compared to say, the *cough* late 80's.

 

There was special ed back then, too. My mom WAS a special ed teacher for her entire career. Is it really that much more expensive to run (comparatively) now?

 

Also, the high school sports teams I was on travelled. One of them travelled a LOT. We were never asked to pay. Our parents were not asked to pay. The coaches were high school teachers who made a little extra when they coached, not a whole extra salary.

 

Our high school band did fund raisers and ran concessions, but didn't charge people to come and watch games (again, except for football).

 

The insurance has gone up dramatically, compared to cost of living, but I still don't think the numbers make sense. My one friend told me she had to spend a little more than $600 on assorted school "fees" for her 1 dd, her senior year of high school.:001_huh: Seems a bit much to me.

 

Thanks for responding, though. It was interesting to see some of the numbers.

[Barry Goldwater]

I took the OP's question as one of 'why is it different today than 25 years ago.' I too never was required to pay fees to participate in sports in PS, and the only events that charged admissions were football games. Now they're hitting people for $4.00 per person to watch a TRACK MEET, or a girls SOCCER GAME.:glare: If you're my family, and DD No. 1 is playing, we're coughing up $20.00 PER GAME...to watch my own kid! That's on top of a pay-to-play fee...if there's 2 games per week...wow, it adds up. I have to think this is a hardship for some...oh, and if I pay-to-play, but my kid never gets to play, because the coach's no. 1 priority is the win (maybe to keep his job, I get that)...that's another issue maybe...

 

I get the budgets, I get that teachers, admin, utilities, ins. and such all cost money...but we had all that in the 1980's too...why did I manage to get through high school without seeing band/music/art cutbacks, extra fees for every little thing, and so on...what has changed?

 

Maybe no-one knows...

 

We homeschool, so we pay for any extra stuff out-of-pocket anyway, but at least I understand the budgeting...I don't understand what my PSing friends tell me, compared to my own experiences as a PS student years ago...

 

Maybe I've turned into one of those crotchety old types...'back in MY DAY, we didn't have no PAY-TO-PLAY...' :tongue_smilie:

[sbgrace]

Well, I'm a former public school teacher and my husband audits schools (among other govt entities) and I asked him though I had my suspicions.

 

On the athletics in our state now by law none of the athletic money (except coach salaries or building programs) comes through the school budget/taxpayer money. It's all through the athletic fund which is extracurricular. So here that is donations, fund raisers, ticket sales, and student fees. If a school has a "great" team ticket sales and donations will take a lot of that cost. If not a lot will come through fees and other student funded/student driven means. Even in those schools that used to be well funded via tickets and donations those things have dropped in this economy.

 

The largest bulk of the budget in every school system my husband has audited is salaries, benefits, and funding pensions through the state or providing retirement incentives. He said it's generally 70 to 80% of the total school budget. The only thing that he said might compare is a building program but even then they are usually borrowing the bulk.

 

He said a special ed student spending per child is going to higher simply because it's a smaller student pool to spread teacher and para salaries among generally. More staff per student is going to mean more average spending per child obviously. Outside of considering salary he didn't feel special ed had a particularly big chunk in the budgets he sees compared to other programs and costs. At any rate, it's absolutely nothing compared to the salaries component of the budget.

 

The PP asked:

get the budgets, I get that teachers, admin, utilities, ins. and such all cost money...but we had all that in the 1980's too...why did I manage to get through high school without seeing band/music/art cutbacks, extra fees for every little thing, and so on...what has changed?

I don't think it's a mystery. The economy has changed drastically in most areas. There is less money coming in via taxes essentially and states drastically cutting all budgets including school funding. Our state for example cut every single department and program by 10% last year and another 15% this year across the board. This is easier for things like road programs where you just don't do as much as you might have otherwise. For departments like my husband's it meant steep pay cuts (as in less take home pay than contracted by a significant amount) and lay offs as employees are the primary expense for auditing. Schools are similar in that their budgets are primarily people heavy so cuts are going to be hard and hurt. As I mentioned above if an athletic department was getting a lot of money via donations and ticket sales those have very likely dropped in this economy as well. Edited October 8, 2010 by sbgrace

[angela in ohio]

Just to keep some perspective here, according to the district budget that I posted for a district for this year, paraprofessional/aides' salaries total 15M, compared to 168M for teachers' salaries, compared to a 720M total budget. Obviously special ed is more than just aides' salaries, but that's only 2% of the total budget. A lot, to be sure, but still 98% is spent on other stuff. The state pension plan, PERA, is more than double what is spent on aides, FWIW. I am not making any particular value judgment on those amounts, but I think it's helpful to look at actual numbers rather than to make guesses based on what you "see."

 

If you really want to know what your district is spending its money on, why not start with looking at the district's website. The budget is probably there somewhere, as was the one I posted.

 

These numbers don't tell the whole story. For example, in our state, special education students are serviced by different school districts at the county level. Looking at an individual school district's spending on speical education would tell you almost nothing. Likewise, in Ohio, much of the servicing is provided by county school agencies. You can't also just break out the aides' salaries, as some of those may not even be in special education (some districts to have aides in large kindergarten classroom, for example.)

 

The state pension plan, like the other items in the benefits category, are a part of the salary. They are paid on behalf of the employees as part of their compensation package.

 

It really comes down to two different discussions going on here: the per student spending and the overall spending. Of course, most of the overall spending goes to salaries, but that can be divided out to a per student amount. When we talk about higher costs for special ed students, salaries are what we are talking about (though higher administrative and equipment cost would also figure in.)

 

I'm not making guesses. I'm married to one of the people who helps put the budget together. :001_smile: Or in this economic crunch, figures out what can be cut and what can't.

 

Anyway, obviously as my dh was a special ed teacher for years, I'm not anti-special ed. I just understand the confusion some have when they try to figure out why it costs so much per student.

[Crimson Wife]

Pensions eat up an enormous amount of the budget in my district. And because the pensions are guaranteed always to pay out a certain amount of money to the recipient regardless of how the stock market is doing, when the markets are in the toilet (as they've basically been for the past decade) they require a greater amount of cash from the district than in the past.

 

The pension fund for the district where we lived until last year lost something like $150 million dollars when Lehman Brothers collapsed. There was a lawsuit filed but who knows if they'll actually get anything out of that.

 

If you or I had Lehman Brothers investments in our 401k or IRA, then we'd simply get a smaller retirement check. But the retired teachers are still getting the same amount in their pensions as always. The shortfall had to come out of somewhere else in the school budget.

 

Teachers and other civil servants ought to have been switched to a 401k-style retirement plan decades ago when the private sector did the same. The reason that didn't happen is because the unions are one of the biggest donors to political campaigns. The whole system is totally corrupt! :rant: