s/o judgemental Christians thread

[Nakia]

When I think of my dearest friend -- a Hutterite woman -- and I think of how different we are, I am glad that she did not look at me and decide I wasn't worth wasting her time on. I am glad that I didn't think she wasn't worth wasting my time on. I wouldn't want to think of my life now without her in it. She's such a beautiful soul in my life.

 

Not everyone lets appearances dictate their relationships. Some people choose, instead, to see the heart of a person. That is never a waste of time. People are never a waste of time.

 

Beautiful. Yes.

 

I suspect that for most people, the more sheltered and narrow a circle they actually mingle within...and the stronger the judgements they have of those outside their range of experience....the more closed and narrow minded they become as they get older. Then they become like the older, judgemental people they might once have not liked so much when they were younger, because they didnt feel understood or valued by them.

 

Unless one consciously chooses to become aware of and overcome one's innate and culturally indoctrinated conditioning such as prejudices against piercings...and deliberately see the person beneath...one just gets to live in that narrow and superficial world- and then defend one's isolationist policy!

 

Once someone you really, reallylove gets a piercing, or a tattoo, or gets a mohawk or declares their homosexuality, or you are thrown into a social situaition where you get to see the deep soul of a person who you otherwise judged...you get the opportunity to choose to just love them and enjoy them and recognise your common humanity- and that could be a street hobo or a movie star going through rehab or your own child. You can be friends, too...doesnt mean you arent smart about your boundaries, doesnt mean you will be best friends...but you CAN be friends.

 

I just reckon the world needs a hell of a lot more tolerance and willingness to accept people for who they are, and openness towards each other...rather than more defensiveness, petty judgements and "us and them" mentality.

 

It IS normal to resist and be frightened of the unknown, of people who look different. I am sure its an inbuilt survival mechanism. However we have the capacity within us to go beyond our basest behaviour, to come out of our narrow minded conditioning and knee jerk reactions. Whether we choose to grow into our better selves or stay in our more basic, primitive selves, is really up to us, once we have seen the choice.

 

Great post!

 

That's between you and God. No other person knows what understandings you and God have come to. Not the hair covering/skirt wearing/Christian music and literature only Christians, ,or the dreadlocked types wearing "Jesus is my homeboy" shirts. They might not remember this though.

 

You can't be buddies with everyone you meet. There isn't enough time in the day for the extroverts and there isn't enough emotional oomph in the introverts. Surely you can see the difference between these two scenarios and determine which is the pleasant way to be:

 

1. New person shows up to your church social dressed in a way that makes your eyes bulge. You let them bulge, you let them see you look them up and down, you let them see you sneer and turn your back on them.

 

2. New person shows up to your church social dressed in a way that makes your eyes bulge. They bulge, you can't deny it, but you take a deep breath, head over, smile, say "Hi, I haven't seen you before. Are you new, or haven't I been paying attention? Do you know anyone here? Come and I'll show you where the tea and coffee is, and the bathroom because everyone needs to know that!" And you don't leave them alone until you've found someone else to shepherd them. You eyeball anyone you think is going to act as per scenario one above.

 

When they show up again next time you smile, say hi, invite them to come and help in the kitchen if they show no signs of going to join a conversation. If they ask whether it's ok to dress the way they are, you say "well, you'll make eyes bulge, but that won't kill anyone" and since you've been nice, the third time they show up, their top will probably cover their belly button and they'll be wearing fewer earrings. If, when one of your buddies makes a comment to you, you smile and say that it is lovely to see someone's personality shining so clearly, but agree that it would be nice if it didn't shine quite so brightly. It shows that you agree, but it contains that gentle reminder that even badly dressed persons are deserving of basic hospitality.

 

This person may latch on to you and become annoying, but since your relationship is confined to the church socials, they can't invade your life. If you put up with it, this person may well turn out to be that really useful person you can always rely on to stick around afterwards to put chairs away and sweep the floor. That isn't enough for best buddydom, but it is a contributing person. And besides, they may have been put into your life for a reason, and if you don't learn that lesson, more of 'em might show up! Or they might turn out to be the only person you've ever met who shares your passionate interest in Egyptian music and not only will you be delighted to know them, but your hubby will be delighted too, since he no longer has to hear about it. You will find out over a few hours of cutting sandwiches in the kitchen.

 

Rosie

 

As always, a beautiful post that gets to the heart of the matter.

 

I just <3 you three ladies. I think we could be great friends.

[HRAAB]

I have not read the posts in this thread - will do that later. What I'm bothered with are the Christians who exclude or shun these people as part of their religion. I have yet to find where it is demanded that Christians never color their hair, get a piercing or tattoo, wear only certain clothes, etc. Christians are being excluded by other Christians based on these issues. Is this the way the body of Christ is to behave?

[simka2]

This is not in response to anything anyone has said)

 

I just have to say that for 15 years I was a very conservative christian. While I never shunned anybody I did try to avoid anyone that not conservative.

 

Anything other than conservative was loudly preached against in my church. I risked being questioned (by pastor and friends) if I or my family hung out with certain types. (We had a dress code...no make up or uncut hair or pants on ladies)

 

Then my kids turned into teens. They never fit in w/ the other kids at church. Probably because we homeschooled. The teens at church fell into one of two groups....those that were rebellious (and those we avoided) and those that were soooooo perfect that even my kids were considered rebellious.

 

If you were rebellious you risked being preached about (names may or may not be mentioned) from the pulpit. For instance...if you had links to something other that religious music on your myspace (or whatever group) you might get preached about from the pulpit. And everyone at church would be clapping and loudly agreeing with the pastor who was pounding the pulpit over how sinful it all was.

 

We ended up leaving this church...which was not easy. It was not easy because we ONLY had friends and connections from our church. When we left, we left all of our friends too.

 

But then...something really cool happened...

 

My oldest brought home this charming little girl he met. She was tiny and smart and had a cute little nose ring and lovely blue hair. Then he brought home some really polite young men with long hair and piercings in their lips and gauges in their ears....and yes, my eyes did bulge....for awhile.

 

And now....

I love my kids friends. They are some of the nicest kids I have ever met. I never would have thunk it. :-)

I am so very glad that my eyes were opened to the fact that a nose ring does not make someone evil or bad! And they are REAL. They are themselves...or trying to find out who they are....just like my own teens. Nothing better, nothing worse...just young people growing up. And very accepting of my kids.

 

I absolutely do not miss this particular conservative crowd who was soooo worried about what other people would say if their teens befriended this person or that person. It was peer pressure for adults. Felt like highschool all over again.

 

Do I want my kids with holes in their faces? Nooooo...because I feel it will be harder for them to get good jobs...I know appearances do matter. And I don't want them to do something now that they might regret later. My oldest (almost 18) has a gauge in his ear...oops...actually he has one in both ears now. Am I real happy about that. Nope. Is this the hill I want to die on? Nope. Will he be shunned by conservative christians simply because of his gauges. Probably. Will I allow him to live here if he puts more holes in his face? Um...yes.

 

I agree that we do not have enough time in a day to befriend everyone. And of course most people (myself included) tend to befriend people most like themselves.

 

BUT...it does makes it hard to befriend anyone who is different when you have the peer pressure that is at some churches....where they literally preach from the pulpit that you are NOT to befriend certain types or risk 'going to hell right along with them' (Or course at the church I attended everyone was going to hell but us. We were practically going to have heaven all to ourselves.)

 

I know this is not the case in all conservative Christian groups, but I know it is true in others. As I lived it. Thank goodness I don't live it anymore. Being holier than thou wasted so many of my years.

 

Sorry...I'm very tired and sick with a cold....so this may not have come out right. Hope I haven't offended anyone. I did that for too many years already.

RhondaM.

 

 

Just wanted to give you a :grouphug:! I know what it is to greive those lost years.

 

To the OP...I think what you are missing is that this wasn't about not having time to develop a relationship with someone. It was about makeing a delibrate decision to exclude a kid from your families relational sphere based on looks ALONE! That is a big difference :001_smile:.

[fairfarmhand]

That's between you and God. No other person knows what understandings you and God have come to. Not the hair covering/skirt wearing/Christian music and literature only Christians, ,or the dreadlocked types wearing "Jesus is my homeboy" shirts. They might not remember this though.

 

You can't be buddies with everyone you meet. There isn't enough time in the day for the extroverts and there isn't enough emotional oomph in the introverts. Surely you can see the difference between these two scenarios and determine which is the pleasant way to be:

 

1. New person shows up to your church social dressed in a way that makes your eyes bulge. You let them bulge, you let them see you look them up and down, you let them see you sneer and turn your back on them.

 

2. New person shows up to your church social dressed in a way that makes your eyes bulge. They bulge, you can't deny it, but you take a deep breath, head over, smile, say "Hi, I haven't seen you before. Are you new, or haven't I been paying attention? Do you know anyone here? Come and I'll show you where the tea and coffee is, and the bathroom because everyone needs to know that!" And you don't leave them alone until you've found someone else to shepherd them. You eyeball anyone you think is going to act as per scenario one above.

 

When they show up again next time you smile, say hi, invite them to come and help in the kitchen if they show no signs of going to join a conversation. If they ask whether it's ok to dress the way they are, you say "well, you'll make eyes bulge, but that won't kill anyone" and since you've been nice, the third time they show up, their top will probably cover their belly button and they'll be wearing fewer earrings. If, when one of your buddies makes a comment to you, you smile and say that it is lovely to see someone's personality shining so clearly, but agree that it would be nice if it didn't shine quite so brightly. It shows that you agree, but it contains that gentle reminder that even badly dressed persons are deserving of basic hospitality.

 

This person may latch on to you and become annoying, but since your relationship is confined to the church socials, they can't invade your life. If you put up with it, this person may well turn out to be that really useful person you can always rely on to stick around afterwards to put chairs away and sweep the floor. That isn't enough for best buddydom, but it is a contributing person. And besides, they may have been put into your life for a reason, and if you don't learn that lesson, more of 'em might show up! Or they might turn out to be the only person you've ever met who shares your passionate interest in Egyptian music and not only will you be delighted to know them, but your hubby will be delighted too, since he no longer has to hear about it. You will find out over a few hours of cutting sandwiches in the kitchen.

 

Rosie

 

:iagree:

in other words....

 

Will you choose to treat someone "different" the exact same way you'd treat someone "normal"?

[SailorMom]

I'm one of the tattooed as well - can't see it unless I'm in a swim suit - and I didn't get it until I was 33....

Anyway - I agree that if you dress and pierce outside the norm - people will look. That's probably part of the point- especially with one's peers. But there is a difference between raising an eyebrow and thinking "that would hurt!" to assuming anything negative about that persons' soul or lifestyle. Especially nowdays - when all of those stylistic descisions have become normal outside of the groups they originated from.

Some of the most wonderful friendships I have had in my life have been with people that many would have been somewhat afraid of!

 

What's funny - is that most of the people I know (including my sister) who are actually sociopaths and drug users, abusers, etc - all look completely normal. Really really. I have never had a problem with anyone who was out of the norm as far as style - but my perfectly wonderful looking sister has managed to estrange me from my entire family - and people are willing to believe her because I am the "odd black sheep" and she's just so darn normal.

 

So please- yeah - raise an eyebrow. And I could never get my tongue or nose pierced because of the pain - but stop to think about all those "normal" looking people you don't give another thought to. At least the odd ones are up front about their personality quirks.

[mommaduck]

When I think of my dearest friend -- a Hutterite woman -- and I think of how different we are, I am glad that she did not look at me and decide I wasn't worth wasting her time on. I am glad that I didn't think she wasn't worth wasting my time on. I wouldn't want to think of my life now without her in it. She's such a beautiful soul in my life.

 

Not everyone lets appearances dictate their relationships. Some people choose, instead, to see the heart of a person. That is never a waste of time. People are never a waste of time.

Absolutely!

[simka2]

I'm one of the tattooed as well - can't see it unless I'm in a swim suit - and I didn't get it until I was 33....

Anyway - I agree that if you dress and pierce outside the norm - people will look. That's probably part of the point- especially with one's peers. But there is a difference between raising an eyebrow and thinking "that would hurt!" to assuming anything negative about that persons' soul or lifestyle. Especially nowdays - when all of those stylistic descisions have become normal outside of the groups they originated from.

Some of the most wonderful friendships I have had in my life have been with people that many would have been somewhat afraid of!

 

What's funny - is that most of the people I know (including my sister) who are actually sociopaths and drug users, abusers, etc - all look completely normal. Really really. I have never had a problem with anyone who was out of the norm as far as style - but my perfectly wonderful looking sister has managed to estrange me from my entire family - and people are willing to believe her because I am the "odd black sheep" and she's just so darn normal.

 

So please- yeah - raise an eyebrow. And I could never get my tongue or nose pierced because of the pain - but stop to think about all those "normal" looking people you don't give another thought to. At least the odd ones are up front about their personality quirks.

 

 

Thank you, for bringing this up!!! I think that is what saddens me the most about the other thread. When you use how someone dresses to put them in a positve influence vs. negative influence classification, you can set up yourself and your kids. BTDT :glare: Trust me, I no longer see a pastor in a shirt and tie and think "he must be nice guy, good guy, godly guy." Now it's more..."He could be a good guy...He could also be a sociopath!!!" I will just have to be very cautious and wait and see ;)

[Murphy101]

So you think people with facial piercings are strange, ugly, freaky, scary, and look like they just stepped out of a horror film, but you love them? Interesting...

 

 

Yes. That is possible. She is saying their physical appearance affects her negatively but she understands that they are still just a person. She is allowed to feel that way. And it is possible to still love them.

 

My dh and I had an interesting conversation. My dh said a parent endorsing what he views as self destructive behavior would nix allowing our kids to go over to their home. He would Not have a problem with them hanging out at hs activities or the kid coming to our home, but the parenting over there would limit the friendship.

 

I'm sure there are people who have seen me post to facebook that I'm enjoying a chocolate martini while dh and the kids play karaoke on the xbox who would feel they couldn't let their kid play at our house.

 

I know one lady who was horrified that on date nights I where sexy clothes. (a nice dress or skirt with some cleavage, mainstream, not sluty). She confronted my dh on it when I said he really likes it. He told her the truth. He loves that after 21 years and 9 kids, he has a wife who still wants to look sexy for him and not just for conjugal visits. And frankly, he thinks any husband who says otherwise is full of carp. Yeah, that friendship was short-lived bc apparently my refusal to go skirts only in a supposedly modest fashion means I'm on the fast track to hell. Oh well.

 

Some home schoolers want nothing to do with me because I use Oak Meadow! Don't you know beeswax crayons can be tools of the devil?:tongue_smilie:

 

I know my life is not going to attract everyone and might even repel some.

 

It's a frustrating part of life.

 

Or at least my life.

 

Over

[justamouse]

Just wanted to give you a :grouphug:! I know what it is to greive those lost years.

 

I know this one, too. And to seriously grieve them. Not my kids though, I won't let that happen to them.

[forty-two]

Why would you not want to befriend people? Maybe your personal definition of "befriend" is different than others.

 

Acknowledging a person's existance, being polite, and a quick smile do not take much time. How can you not have the time to say "hello" to each person you meet when you take a walk. That is being friendly and all that is expected. Six months of meeting the same person with a smile and hello may yield a new friend.

<snip>

If you are willing to open yourself to it, you can make a friend in just a few seconds.

Not the OP, but her posts resonate with me, and I think there are *definitely* different definitions in play.

 

To me there is a *huge* difference b/w being friendly - saying hello, nodding in recognition, brief chit-chat - and actively trying to befriend someone - trying to establish a relationship that goes beyond whatever commonality (neighbors, fellow church members, co-workers, fellow hs group members) initially brought you together. The latter takes above-and-beyond effort than just being friendly when you happen to run into each other - you need to call/email/visit intentionally at other times, too.

 

Right now I don't have any friends that I'm not related to - and I'm good with that. I just don't have the time or energy to keep up my end of an established friendship right now, let alone try to make a new one (though I am considering trying to make an effort with a mom of a 2yo at church - we have a lot in common and I think she could use a friend). I am on friendly acquaintance level with members of our church, some just at the smile-and-hello level, and some that I know a bit about their lives, and I try to ask them how things are going when I see them. But no one that I talk to outside of church settings. Same with my neighbors - I try to say hi or wave as I see them. I am pretty friendly with the mom of a girl b/w my dds' ages and we chat as our kids play. But we don't get together to do anything outside of that - we're *friendly*, not *friends*.

Edited October 5, 2010 by forty-two

[simka2]

I know this one, too. And to seriously grieve them. Not my kids though, I won't let that happen to them.

 

I know :001_smile: mine were very young when it happened, so they have no real memories. Talk about doing a parenting 180 ;)!!!

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

So you think people with facial piercings are strange, ugly, freaky, scary, and look like they just stepped out of a horror film, but you love them? Interesting...

 

I said most. Yeah, I have the right to think piercings are ugly/strange LOOKING. I don't apologize. Yep, I can love them too.

Edited October 5, 2010 by mommyjen

[Nakia]

I said most. Yeah, I have the right to think piercings are ugly/strange. I don't apologize. I can love them, too. :)

 

I did not question your rights, and I don't expect an apology. I just think it's interesting that you can call people all kinds of names and then say you love them. It's kind of like when someone says "bless her heart" here in the south.

 

Of course, we will agree to disagree on this. I have no interest in debating it with you. I will never understand your thinking, and you will never understand that I am not strange, freaky, or scary because I have a nose ring. I am just a normal girl with an all-consuming love for Jesus.

[mommaduck]

you will never understand that I am not strange, freaky, or scary because I have a nose ring. I am just a normal girl with an all-consuming love for Jesus.

Goodness, you look pretty mainstream in your avi LOL!

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

I did not question your rights, and I don't expect an apology. I just think it's interesting that you can call people all kinds of names and then say you love them. It's kind of like when someone says "bless her heart" here in the south.

 

Of course, we will agree to disagree on this. I have no interest in debating it with you. I will never understand your thinking, and you will never understand that I am not strange, freaky, or scary because I have a nose ring. I am just a normal girl with an all-consuming love for Jesus.

 

Um, I never called anyone a name. That is untrue. I said they are scary LOOKING, usually to *me*. I am not judging anyone's relationship with Jesus, because I don't like piercings. :) I have no interest debating either.:)

[Nakia]

Birds of a feather flock together PPL. That is LIFE! I think it's uber strange to have distracting piercings on your face or whatever. I don't like looking at them. The wig me out. I don't usually think they are pretty or artistic. Most the time, I think they are UGLY and FREAKY. I'll love ya, but I don't have to hang with you and be your best friend. Friendly. YES. Loving. YES. Friends. NO. If I want to watch ppl that look like they came from a horror movie, then I'd rent one. I never would. If you want to look a certain way (SCARY) then don't expect everyone to want to look at your scary face!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

:confused:

 

That isn't name-calling?

[Nakia]

Goodness, you look pretty mainstream in your avi LOL!

 

I guess I need a close-up of my tattoos and nose ring, so as not to let anyone think I am that conservative. :lol:

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

No it's not. :confused::confused: I was referring to piercings not ppl. Why would you assume I think that ppl are ugly and freaky on the inside because they have piercings?

[asta]

And besides, they may have been put into your life for a reason, and if you don't learn that lesson, more of 'em might show up!

 

Rosie

 

There are no coincidences.

 

And Christianity hasn't even cornered the market on that concept. :001_smile:

 

 

a

[6packofun]

It would be interesting to see photos of everyone's *actual* friends and how different or similar they all look compared to that person--who probably really does appreciate diversity! LOL! I know that my photo would be pretty bland and that's not because I don't meet, chat with, care about or occasionally hang out with people who look very different from me.

 

I get your point, although I do think that there is a pretty great degree of shunning going on with immature kids/teens that can really hurt the one who looks different. Kids can also simply be more outspoken and less subtle about their hang-ups, preferences and the effects of peer pressure. Adults hide it well with words and PC conversation, but what is the reality and is the reality necessarily wrong or mean?

 

Interesting topic! I'm not justifying ever making someone feel bad for who they are (or how they choose to decorate themselves or dress, LOL) but the discussion is very interesting compared to the reality that I wonder about... :tongue_smilie:

[LibraryLover]

I am thinking someone is a very very young 21? 23? yr old. I am hoping her maturity can be sped along, for the children's sake. The use of freaky, ugly etc are very jr high-ish, and the explanation of why/how she is using them is as well. I know she is not that young (jr high) because the oldest is 7.

Edited October 5, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Nakia]

No it's not. :confused::confused: I was referring to piercings not ppl. Why would you assume I think that ppl are ugly and freaky on the inside because they have piercings?

 

If you say someone is ugly, freaky, and strange because they have piercings on the outside, then you will never have the chance to see what's on the inside. You ARE assuming something about their inside. It's plain and simple to see.

[Laurie4b]

I think there are some different issues:

 

1. As Joanne pointed out, it's wrong to discern someone's character by the way s/he dresses . I would add, that it's wrong to discern based soley on how they dress. Sometimes, it is indeed a clue.

 

2. The way you dress is art. People interpret art in different ways. An artist who puts her stuff up in a gallery expects some people to "get it" and some people to misinterpret. Most artists are also tolerant of what would be a misinterpretation in their own opinion. Accept your responsbility as an artist.

 

3. Nose rings, tatoos, dresses only--all are forms of communication to some extent about the person wearing them. In some instances, there is cross-cultural communication involved and cross-cultural communication is more likely to be misunderstood than communication within a specific cultural niche.

 

A person may see a woman with a head covering who is not from the same cultural niche and think it means subservience when the woman herself has a different interpretation.

 

A person having a tongue piercing may be communicating certain things about sexuality--or they may just like the way it looks. The responsibility for the communication going well is not solely on either party--the communicator or the receiver of the communication. The communicator (say, someone with a tongue piercing) needs to be aware that many people will believe that he is communicating a sexual message, and if that is not what he intends, he needs to do some additional communication to clarify. The receiver of the message (say of tongue piercings) needs to be aware that if tongue piercing is not part of their cultural niche, that they may well be misinterpreting its meaning. It's that person's responsibility to do a little exploring before being sure that they are correctly receiving the message being sent.

 

4. It is reality that we unconsciously judge people by appearance. Study after study after study has shown that attractive people are thought to be nicer than plainer people or unattractive ones. A pretty woman or a tall man is more likely to get the job. Thin people are judged to be nicer, smarter, etc. than fat people. If you ask people directly, they'll say of course they don't judge that way, but if you watch behavior, they certainly do. So the reality is: your appearance impacts people, even those who aren't consciously making those decisions based on appearance.

 

5. Some forms of appearance do gross other people out, just like some smells, flavors, etc. gross people out. Certain kinds of piercings are going to gross out a portion of the population, so if you choose to get those, you'll need to take that into account, not blame people for their visceral reactions. And if you have a visceral reaction, it behooves you to try to "walk through" your visceral reaction. There are people I know, like, and respect with nose piercings. I don't think nose piercings are wrong. But the piercing makes me wince every time I see it. It has to do with a bodily reaction of perception of pain or discomfort. I can't help that. But I can still be their friend. I would have a much worse time with a tongue piercing intruding into my consciousness as I'm trying to interact. I would be feeling the piercing as if it were in my own mouth the whole time. <shiver> But I would try to walk through that.

 

So, to me, both parties are responsible. People need to own their own artistic choices and communications. As a communicator, people need to be aware of what their communication means cross-culturally. People need to be sure they are interpreting correctly, especially if the communication is cross-cultural.

 

The responsibility for communication--both verbal and nonverbal--is a two-way street.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Laurie4b

[LibraryLover]

Sure. But we do expect adults to show maturity and rise about their own petty emotional limitations. Does the guy back from Iraq with one arm make you wince, does the blind person make you uncomfortable, does the woman chatting with you in the check out line...who had a stroke (and is maybe drooling) ruin your morning? What about the new mother who flashes a tiny bit of nipple as she latches her babe on in public?

[lakotajm]

Why is it bad to screen out folks you don't think will "fit" with you and your group?

 

I don't think they are non-Christian for it

 

if some guy stopped by with local gang type clothes on driving a lowered Cadillac with spinners-he's probably not getting invited in for supper here. Yes I am making a judgement based solely on appearance-but he is still not coming in my house. Is it just that they called his character into question? or that they judged him on his appearance? both together?

 

From my understanding of what I have read in the Bible on this topic, it makes it clear that you will and likely should be judged based both on your chosen accoutrements and who you hang with. The reasoning is clear-they say something about you (your character and the choices you make) or from past experience, most people have come to associate that style with statements of character (not without reason). It is sheer survival instinct mixed with our lovely God-given ability to remember, reason and deduce. It is not evil or God would not have made it such a natural part of who we are nor mentioned it as part of a path to wisdom in the Bible.

 

Also, Christians are admonished to dress plainly in the Bible, in part, I assume, because they are expected to evangelize among a varied people. These foreigners could perceive certain stand-out type dress or hair, etc. as offensive, thereby interfering with the missionary's job. Also it says it is because it will overshadow our Christianess and indicate to others that we are wordly. This is made clear in the Bible! So are you telling me the Bible is wrong about this?

 

Yes, Christ tried to show us an example of not allowing people's dress and associations to interfere with our communing with them and evangelizing to them. But notice that he did not indicate they were not being judged. In fact, to the contrary, he made it clear he was carrying on with them specifically because he knew them to be sinners and in need of his help.

 

Sure, he had special insight to guide him as to who the sinners were, and made it clear that a few more tassles on someone's shawl did not make them holier-their insides would be known to God. So he is saying a follwer of Satan can be disguised in the trappings of a religious person. But we don't have His advantage. I cannot always easily spot an evil-dooer with my ex-ray vision. I need something more concrete because I am a lowly human. It is not evil that I rely on this crutch. But it is a shortcoming. Again, we humans are hampered and it is part of our nature and from sinfulness. One day that will be a thing of the past-when Christ returns.

The, we can be like him. But not before.

 

It's great to strive to overcome that, but even the Bible warns against being a fool without prudence. We can strive to be more like Christ in our loving manner when we encounter people who are different. But it would be imprudent to completely lose our inclination to steer clear of people who "creep us out".

 

Love and prudence can coincide, surely.:001_smile:

 

Lakota

[Laurie4b]

Sure. But we do expect adults to show maturity and rise about their own petty emotional limitations. Does the guy back from Iraq with one arm make you wince, does the blind person make you uncomfortable, does the woman chatting with you in the check out line...who had a stroke (and is maybe drooling) ruin your morning? What about the new mother who flashes a tiny bit of nipple as she latches her babe on in public?

 

If you were reacting to what I wrote, "expecting adults to show maturity" was half my point.

 

The other point was that people making choices about their appearance are communicating.

 

A person who is blind, an amputee, a stroke victim...none of these is communicating by their appearance.

[justamouse]

 

this thread reminds me of this song (God of Second Chances) by Carlos Whittaker, but when Danny, a homeless man came up to him and started singing along with...

 

judging cuts us off from the most beautiful God encounters

[mommaduck]

 

Also, Christians are admonished to dress plainly in the Bible, in part, I assume, because they are expected to evangelize among a varied people. These foreigners could perceive certain stand-out type dress or hair, etc. as offensive, thereby interfering with the missionary's job. Also it says it is because it will overshadow our Christianess and indicate to others that we are wordly. This is made clear in the Bible! So are you telling me the Bible is wrong about this?

Some may disagree with your interpretation of the Bible ;)

[LibraryLover]

Wheelchair, nipple, nose piercing can all be provocative. Our reactions in every single one of these provocations tells something very important about our character and our maturity. And our children are watching.

 

If you were reacting to what I wrote, "expecting adults to show maturity" was half my point.

 

The other point was that people making choices about their appearance are communicating.

 

A person who is blind, an amputee, a stroke victim...none of these is communicating by their appearance.

[justamouse]

Some may disagree with your interpretation of the Bible ;)

 

Thank you. That was where I was about to lose it.

 

Yes, some might disagree with that interpretation.

Edited October 5, 2010 by justamouse

[A.D.]

From my understanding of what I have read in the Bible on this topic, it makes it clear that you will and likely should be judged based both on your chosen accoutrements and who you hang with. The reasoning is clear-they say something about you (your character and the choices you make) or from past experience, most people have come to associate that style with statements of character (not without reason). It is sheer survival instinct mixed with our lovely God-given ability to remember, reason and deduce. It is not evil or God would not have made it such a natural part of who we are nor mentioned it as part of a path to wisdom in the Bible.

 

Could you please cite me the scriptures where we are told to judge someone based on their accrouements?

 

Yes, Christ tried to show us an example of not allowing people's dress and associations to interfere with our communing with them and evangelizing to them. But notice that he did not indicate they were not being judged. In fact, to the contrary, he made it clear he was carrying on with them specifically because he knew them to be sinners and in need of his help.

 

For the life of me I cannot recall where Jesus judged someone for what they were wearing. I also mistakenly got the message that we were all sinners in need of his help.

 

Sure, he had special insight to guide him as to who the sinners were, and made it clear that a few more tassles on someone's shawl did not make them holier-their insides would be known to God. So he is saying a follwer of Satan can be disguised in the trappings of a religious person. But we don't have His advantage. I cannot always easily spot an evil-dooer with my ex-ray vision. I need something more concrete because I am a lowly human. It is not evil that I rely on this crutch. But it is a shortcoming. Again, we humans are hampered and it is part of our nature and from sinfulness. One day that will be a thing of the past-when Christ returns.

The, we can be like him. But not before.

 

If you are that reliant on appearance to determine "evil dooers", then I am afraid you are missing many good people, and trusting some really terrible ones.

 

But it would be imprudent to completely lose our inclination to steer clear of people who "creep us out".

 

Or we could learn to understand and address our cultural bias and/or ignorance and judge someone on character, not perception.

[lakotajm]

Some may disagree with your interpretation of the Bible ;)

 

So true! after all, there's a lot to be discussed and cussed in that tome!

 

Oh, and ya'll will have to bear and laugh with me over some of my typos, for instance that it seemed I was saying people could be assumed to be loquacious if they dressed a certain way. I meant worldly not wordly!:lol:

 

I type fast and cannot touch type and to make matters worse, I have a disability (please don't judge me!;)) because I had tendon reattachment surgery on my right pinky. Sometimes it intereferes with typing.

 

Lakota

[Parrothead]

 

Or we could learn to understand and address our cultural bias and/or ignorance and judge someone on character, not perception.

:iagree:

[Laurie4b]

Wheelchair, nipple, nose piercing can all be provocative. Our reactions in every single one of these provocations tells something very important about our character and our maturity. And our children are watching.

 

Then we agree, don't we?

[asta]

I cannot always easily spot an evil-dooer with my ex-ray vision. I need something more concrete because I am a lowly human.

 

 

Umm...

[lakotajm]

From my understanding of what I have read in the Bible

 

Also, Christians are admonished to dress plainly in the Bible, in part, I assume, because they are expected to evangelize among a varied people. These foreigners could perceive certain stand-out type dress or hair, etc. as offensive, thereby interfering with the missionary's job. Also it says it is because it will overshadow our Christianess and indicate to others that we are wordly. This is made clear in the Bible! So are you telling me the Bible is wrong about this?

 

Love and prudence can coincide, surely.:001_smile:

 

Lakota

 

Ok, here I've highlighted some words that might make it clearer that it is my interpretation, but also to note that sometimes the Bible makes a statement and it's just as clear as can be. Many things in the Bible are made so clear you would have to be a child to misunderstand them, even though many people (and do not flame back that I am saying you are one of them-please-my tone here is conversational, not accusatory) deliberately make them sound nebulous to allow much leeway for disagreeing with the Bible without appearing to do so.

 

And just so it is clear, I am paraphrasing the Bible in my post because the original thread was referencing Christians (not because I am some religious zealot). So the argument is not is it ok for anyone in general to judge based on appearances, but is it ok for Christians in particular to do so? And is there ever a time when doing so would be legitimately "Christian" or if one did so could they still be considered to be a Christian. So it is logical to discuss what the Bible has to say on this matter-varying interpretaions and all. Whew!

Lakota

[sparrow]

 

I don't get the hostility I saw on that thread toward people that were up front with the idea that appearance makes a difference to some people and if you choose to appear a certain way that might turn some people off-well you may not have much luck hanging with that crowd.

 

That's easy to answer. Because either they themselves, but most often, *their children* were hurt by judgmental people. That's Mama Bear coming out.

 

I find this whole distaste for piercing discussion fascinating. I'm personally not pierced, other than three holes in my left ear and one in my right, but it doesn't bother me. It seems that most people aren't understanding that it's just the next thing to push the envelope for teens and YA to display to the world, "I'm an individual!" It's been happening forever. Greasers, hippies, punks. I had it easy, back in the 80's. I wore all black, bleached my hair white, and shaved the side of my head. Now *everybody* colors their hair or has a mohawk. The next thing that *everybody* did was get a tattoo. Guilty, on that one. I'm somewhat regretful of it, not because it's cheesy, it's not, but because, well, everybody has tattoos now. What was next? Piercing and gauges because everybody had tattoos. Dermals are what you're going to be seeing now (you can google it!). Everybody has gauges and their septum pierced. Dermals are new and exciting!

 

I'm not surprised at the hostility, but I am surprised at the number of people who have openly admitted that what counts is on the outside :confused:.

[elegantlion]

After reading this I now have Jesus Freak running around in my head. Tattooed bellies and the judgment of John the Baptist because of what he wore and ate. Hmmm. :001_unsure: