Algebra I as a high school course doesn't look good, right?

[ssbmem]

So many students in traditional schools are counting Algebra I as a middle school course. If I count it as a high school course, wouldn't it make my student look inferior?

[Susan C.]

I don't think so, both of my kids have Algebra 1 on their high school transcripts. It is traditionally taken in 9th grade, and my state allows credits to be pulled from 7th or 8th grades that are high school level.

[Jann in TX]

As a Math teacher I much rather see a student take Algebra 1 as a 9th grader... the year of maturity makes a HUGE difference...

 

If for some reason the student feels the need to double up so they can work Calc in high school-- Geometry and Algebra 2 the same year is very possible.

 

Just a note--MANY MANY students who take Calc in high school NEED to repeat it in college... instead of rushing just to get Calc on a transcript--I rather see students slow down a bit and get a SOLID FOUNDATION-- getting through Pre-Calc with great understanding will NOT make your student look inferior at all!

 

There are VERY FEW college majors that really like to see Calc 1 on a high school transcript-- most are just as happy with Algebra 2 or Pre-Calc as the highest level of high school math.

[Jamee]

As a Math teacher I much rather see a student take Algebra 1 as a 9th grader... the year of maturity makes a HUGE difference...

 

If for some reason the student feels the need to double up so they can work Calc in high school-- Geometry and Algebra 2 the same year is very possible.

 

Just a note--MANY MANY students who take Calc in high school NEED to repeat it in college... instead of rushing just to get Calc on a transcript--I rather see students slow down a bit and get a SOLID FOUNDATION-- getting through Pre-Calc with great understanding will NOT make your student look inferior at all!

 

There are VERY FEW college majors that really like to see Calc 1 on a high school transcript-- most are just as happy with Algebra 2 or Pre-Calc as the highest level of high school math.

 

:iagree:My mom is a retired high school math teacher and agrees that the push for Algebra by all in middle school is not a good thing. If that is where your children are, then that is where they are. No need to rush them into something that they're not ready for.

[Alphabetika]

My dd16 struggled through math mightily and (in her mind) hopelessly, until last year. At that point, in 10th grade, she was able to take algebra with a friend of mine who teaches math and classical subjects in her home. DD did beautifully, understood what she was learning, and, to my deep and utter amazement, loved learning math. I know that a big part of her learning jump had to do with having an excellent teacher *right there with her* (even a program like TT with lots of explaining and verbal and visual cues didn't work for her). But she has also shared with me that she feels like if she had had this same teacher even a year before, she would not have been able to do as well. She feels like something just clicked on in her brain when she hit that particular stage and she was able to understand the abstract processes necessary for math (versus Latin or any other subject, all of which she does very well in).

 

She plans to take Algebra II and Geometry concurrently with this same teacher next year. She probably won't go any higher in math, but she is determined to get this far and understand the material.

 

So, as cavalier as this may sound, it doesn't matter a bit to me that she waited until 10th grade to take algebra. I wish I had - I took it in 8th grade and was so confused that in 9th grade the powers that be put me back into BASIC math, where I was bored out of my mind. I went on to take geometry and do well, but after that, I quit math because I could. I never understood it, hated it, and until recently thought I had passed on that hatred to my daughter through osmosis or something. Perhaps if I'd been able to wait, I would have understood it better and seen the beauty in it that she does. Yes, beauty! She used to show me her color-coded notes after every class session and say, "Look how pretty the equations look!" She was so satisfied with being able to find the solutions. If you had told me even two years ago that my dd would think math was enjoyable and - of all things - beautiful, I would have laughed my head off.

 

So, if she is led to go to college and an admissions counselor wants to take me to task for having algebra on her 10th grade transcript, that's okay with me. I may be naive, but I love looking at the bigger picture.

[newbie]

My first did Alg I in tenth grade. The other ninth.

[creekland]

Honestly? It's all going to depend on how selective of a college she is looking at AND which major she chooses. For most, it won't matter at all. And, if math is not her specialty, she's not likely to choose a math intensive major. If this changes in high school, as mentioned before, she can double up on Geometry and Alg 2.

 

My two older boys did Alg 1 in 7th. My youngest did it in 8th, but I was more than ready to delay him until 9th if he hadn't grasped it in 8th. The math brain matures at different ages in different people. The most important thing is to do Algebra at an age where the student truly understands it.

[asta]

The math brain matures at different ages in different people. The most important thing is to do Algebra at an age where the student truly understands it.

 

I think this is the single. most. important. thing. for parents to understand. And it applies to all subjects, really.

 

The brain is one big developmental mystery of "if A, then B"; "if not A, then not B." There are people who do nothing but study the As and Bs and their permutations.

 

Once upon a time, kid was having difficulty doing something (I can't for the life of me remember what), and my sister in law (who is one of these people) commented "kid didn't crawl, did he?" Um, no - he scooted around on his bum and then just... walked. SIL said "there is a neuronal connection made by the process of crawling that, if skipped, manifests itself in childhood as _______ . That is why OTs use those big foam block things with disabled kids: to simulate the same motions."

 

You have to understand - most of the time SIL puts on a dead ringer dumb blond act - this about floored me. But she has been a gold mine ever since whenever I have questions about "why is kid doing X" in the learning arena.

 

Fascinating stuff. :001_smile:

 

 

a

[Teachin'Mine]

From what I've read here, even public schools list Algebra I on the high school transcript when it's taken in 8th grade. :)

[creekland]

From what I've read here' date=' even public schools list Algebra I on the high school transcript when it's taken in 8th grade. :)[/quote']

 

Ours used to. They no longer allow any 7th or 8th grade courses on a transcript (changed in the last 4 years). For credits to be earned toward graduation they have to be earned in 9 - 12. Those that take Alg 1 in 7th grade here (ps) need to do Alg 2, Pre-Calc, and either Stats, Calc, or College Alg as their minimum of 3 math credits to graduate. (Geom is 8th if Alg 1 is 7th).

 

The vast majority of college bound kids take Alg 1 in 8th. The exceptional [math] ones take it in 7th. Some take it in 9th, but generally they head to 2 year or vocational schools (or no college at all). NOT always. I can think of a couple exceptions off the top of my head where math just "clicked" later and then there are those who go to college for Art and such things that just aren't math heavy.

[Teachin'Mine]

Oops - change that to some ps do, and some don't. :D

 

Our home school does - credit is given where due. :)

[creekland]

Oops - change that to some ps do' date=' and some don't. :D

 

Our home school does - credit is given where due. :)[/quote']

 

I note credit potential courses taken in 7th and 8th on our homeschool transcript and figure adcoms can do with it what they like. Of course, with the higher level math taken in 9-12 I don't think it comes as any great surprise. With World History, it's important, esp since we're not doing as much in the Social Studies to allow more time for science. He'll still have 3 Social Studies credits from 9-12, just not 4 as WH was done in 8th (high school level).

[Only me]

I thought that my dd was behind because she took algebra in 9th and about two thirds of the kids at her private high school took it in 8th or earlier. She took algebra, geometry, algebra 2 and stats/trig. When she did the placement testing at the community college she tested out of all required math and only has to take math for her major which is elementary Ed. She had great grades in school and could have gone to a 4 year school but due to finances she took this route. I also don't think that just because someone is going to a community college means that they aren't a good student.

[Pam in MA]

Go read what Harvard's website says about this in the preparing for college section. I know a large handful of students here who took Algebra in public school in 8th grade and then repeated it in 9th grade when they got accepted at a private school. The private school insisted on it.

[HistoryMom]

In our PS system, only the super advanced kids take Algebra in 8th grade, and they have to go to the high school to take it. The regular college-track has them take it in 9th grade. The system sends lots of kids to highly-ranked universities every year.

[In The Great White North]

Ds got into some highly selective colleges with algebra I in 9th grade.

[southcarolinamom]

As a Math teacher I much rather see a student take Algebra 1 as a 9th grader... the year of maturity makes a HUGE difference...

 

If for some reason the student feels the need to double up so they can work Calc in high school-- Geometry and Algebra 2 the same year is very possible.

 

Just a note--MANY MANY students who take Calc in high school NEED to repeat it in college... instead of rushing just to get Calc on a transcript--I rather see students slow down a bit and get a SOLID FOUNDATION-- getting through Pre-Calc with great understanding will NOT make your student look inferior at all!

 

There are VERY FEW college majors that really like to see Calc 1 on a high school transcript-- most are just as happy with Algebra 2 or Pre-Calc as the highest level of high school math.

 

 

Excellent advice!!

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

I very much agree with what the others have said about maturity! It reminds me of what the author of LoF says, that kids shouldn't do Algebra until they have hair under their arms:lol: Like all things, that won't be true of every child but does a good job of getting the maturity point across. At least it does to me:D

[emubird]

Some kids are ready for Alg I early, others aren't, but it takes a perceptive parent or teacher to know the difference.

 

The middle school near us finally started offering Alg I in 8th grade. Problem was, few of the kids were ready for it. The kids ended up mostly failing. The teacher got blamed. The fact that there were several troublemakers in the class who spent the whole of class time making fun of the teacher (perhaps because they didn't want to admit they didn't get algebra?) was not considered to be part of the problem. The troublemakers' parents still blame the teacher. This was 4 years ago. Last night I was at a party where some of these kids were *still* complaining about this teacher. And the parents were there still backing up the story that it was the teacher's fault. And telling us that is why their children still don't get math. Arg.

 

OK, sorry for that aside. Last night's party kind of got to me.

 

Back on topic -- in a few years, who's really going to care whether someone took calculus in high school or not?

 

I do think it's worthwhile for some kids to move along in math at a fast pace. If their minds work that way, it's probably better not to bore them and make them hate math. But that doesn't mean a fast pace is better for everyone else.

 

And the physics dept where I work is much more interested in getting kids who have a solid foundation. Calculus in high school might impress them, but only if it turns out the student really did learn it. They do accept calc credits (from AP or dual enrollment), but they assume most everyone will take Calc in college, and that's perfectly acceptable.

 

On the transcript question if alg I is done before high school: My daughter did do Alg I early, before high school. I put it on her transcript, but I didn't assign credits for it. It was under a section titled "courses completed before high school" or some such thing (I put some of her foreign language there too, but that was it). Actually, she'd done Alg I, Alg II, and Geometry before high school and I thought just putting on pre-calc and calculus (even if it was 3 years of calc for a total of 4 years of high school math) might raise some eyebrows.

 

I've known a fair number of kids who got into selective schools without calc in high school. They either didn't do Alg I in 8th, or they stepped out of the math sequence before getting to calc, or they decided to take stat because they thought it would be easier. Colleges don't really fixate on one thing. They look at the whole package.

[Storm Bay]

A good grade in Algebra 1 in high school is far better than struggling along in later courses. The ability to do Algebra is related to brain development that isn't directly related to IQ, and most dc haven't developed it by 13. However if your dc is done pre Algebra, there's time to do Algebra 1 twice, once in gr 8 & then again in gr 9.

 

It's like any other academics, IMO, if a dc isn't pushing to go that fast and obviously able to do it, don't go ahead. Of course there area few dc who can do it at 13 who really understand it, but that's the case in any area of life (music, sports, art, hands on skills, etc.)

[Wendi]

I agree with what others are saying on this thread about kids maturing at different rates when it comes to math. But schools do seem to expect the average kid to do what was considered "advanced" when I was in school. When I was in high school, taking algebra I in 9th was normal. Only advanced students took Calculus. But as of the year ds will graduate, students in our state are required to take Alg. I, Geometry, Alg. II, and something beyond Alg. II (Trig. or Pre-calc., I assume). And this is what the local 4-year university already requires.

 

So there's no room for the math struggler who may not be ready for Algebra until 10th grade. Even though ds is bright, he struggles with math. I feel like I am responsible get him ready to go to a university if that's what he wants to do, but it seems very likely he will have to go to community college first. Not that that's the end of the world, but I guess I feel a lot of pressure that he should be able to meet the state requirements and qualify for university at the end of high school.

 

Wendi

[Ester Maria]

I find pretty much that it's all about societal expectations.

There's nothing inherent in American students which would make them bend themselves to different teaching than Russian students or different brain maturing, yet, math approaches in the two countries are radically different and average Russian students learn all of their math a year or a few in advance compared to American students.

 

While you can't push things to earlier grades endlessly, if 8th grade becomes a new standard for algebra, most kids will be fine as societal expectations will have changed and different approaches will be taken to prepare kids for 8th grade algebra in the first seven years of studying math. Just like in Italy cursive is normal in first grade and multiplication tables in second - it's not that Italian kids mature differently, it's that societal expectations and ways of teaching have "wired" them a certain way.

 

Personally I don't find a reason why an average 8th grader couldn't "get" algebra, given adequate preparation in the first seven years of education. Nor do I consider it "bad" if algebra is done in 9th grade. It's mostly about how you put a system. I'm not an overly mathy person, and I did differential equations and integrals and all of that as a normal part of my education (in a school that had somewhat different standards for a classical school, but still).

[Heather in VA]

As a Math teacher I much rather see a student take Algebra 1 as a 9th grader... the year of maturity makes a HUGE difference...

 

If for some reason the student feels the need to double up so they can work Calc in high school-- Geometry and Algebra 2 the same year is very possible.

 

Just a note--MANY MANY students who take Calc in high school NEED to repeat it in college... instead of rushing just to get Calc on a transcript--I rather see students slow down a bit and get a SOLID FOUNDATION-- getting through Pre-Calc with great understanding will NOT make your student look inferior at all!

 

There are VERY FEW college majors that really like to see Calc 1 on a high school transcript-- most are just as happy with Algebra 2 or Pre-Calc as the highest level of high school math.

 

Unfortunately whether or not it's a good thing really isn't the point. The OP's question is about what colleges expect and I know around here colleges specifically map our their high school math expectations as 'beyond Algebra I' so if they are looking for 4 years of math - they do not expect Algebra I to be included in that number. It may not be what we want to do or believe, but it's reality for many colleges so while we'd like to give our kids extra time, we need to keep the reality of outside expectations in mind when making these decisions.

 

Heather

[K-FL]

The OP's question is about what colleges expect and I know around here colleges specifically map our their high school math expectations as 'beyond Algebra I' so if they are looking for 4 years of math - they do not expect Algebra I to be included in that number.

 

Heather

 

For our state system, they're requiring 4 yrs math Alg I & above, so as long as you have 4 yrs of math (Alg I & II, Geometry, Stats/pre-calc/trig, etc) would work.

[creekland]

I find pretty much that it's all about societal expectations.

There's nothing inherent in American students which would make them bend themselves to different teaching than Russian students or different brain maturing, yet, math approaches in the two countries are radically different and average Russian students learn all of their math a year or a few in advance compared to American students.

 

While you can't push things to earlier grades endlessly, if 8th grade becomes a new standard for algebra, most kids will be fine as societal expectations will have changed and different approaches will be taken to prepare kids for 8th grade algebra in the first seven years of studying math. Just like in Italy cursive is normal in first grade and multiplication tables in second - it's not that Italian kids mature differently, it's that societal expectations and ways of teaching have "wired" them a certain way.

 

Personally I don't find a reason why an average 8th grader couldn't "get" algebra, given adequate preparation in the first seven years of education. Nor do I consider it "bad" if algebra is done in 9th grade. It's mostly about how you put a system. I'm not an overly mathy person, and I did differential equations and integrals and all of that as a normal part of my education (in a school that had somewhat different standards for a classical school, but still).

 

What we've found from our exchange students is that it isn't so much a difference in ability or expectations as it is a difference in sorting kids by academic ability at a much younger age than the US typically does. In some countries, the sorting starts really early. Those who are considered to have academic talent are in one group - moderate talent in another - and low talent in yet another. Then classes and their future are planned accordingly. Not all are even in what we consider high school. Our high schools accommodate all students up through 12 or 13 years of schooling. Therefore, our different groups are also there - not at different schools or out in apprentice types of situations. They are often being compared with just the top academic kids in other countries.

 

Teaching exchange students has showed me that there really isn't much of a learning ability difference based on ones country of origin. Some do very well - just like here. Most are average - just like here. We don't get low academic students in our exchange program, but every single one of the exchange students has told me their country has them.

 

And NO ONE is judging the worth of a person based on when they take what or where/what they do after graduating. Everyone needs to find what works for them, not their neighbor, and then find their niche in life. These decisions aren't right or wrong if they are tailored to the person involved. They are, however, different. Any perception of judging is thoroughly incorrect from what I've read (and went back and re-read).

[Ester Maria]

Our high schools accommodate all students up through 12 or 13 years of schooling. Therefore, our different groups are also there - not at different schools or out in apprentice types of situations. They are often being compared with just the top academic kids in other countries.

I'm always talking from a lycee perspective - college-bound track. FWIW, in Italy separation begins only in 8th grade, for the vast majority, when high schools are being chosen.

The sole wording of the first post in the thread implies that's what's being discussed: an educational experience of a college-bound student, rather than the kind of student that just wants to get the basic requirements done e basta (that kind of situation I would compare with some other situations in other countries, not with lycees).

Therefore, I compare that sort of student with his rough equivalent in other school systems. Other school systems tend to speed up math a bit more than the US for that kind of student, a trend that seems to be catching the US as well, which I don't necessarily see as a bad trend. If it becomes a new expectation for the college-bound, most of the kids will be fine, as the whole system will be set that way that algebra is taken in 8th grade.

And NO ONE is judging the worth of a person based on when they take what or where/what they do after graduating. Everyone needs to find what works for them, not their neighbor, and then find their niche in life. These decisions aren't right or wrong if they are tailored to the person involved. They are, however, different. Any perception of judging is thoroughly incorrect from what I've read (and went back and re-read).

The worth of the person has very little to do with formal academics anyway, and we all know it. It doesn't mean we can't look critically at the standards. In many countries the sole concept of tailoring your own education as in the US high schools is unheard of (Italy is one of them) and kids do just fine with what's a "prescribed" sequence of subjects and material - again, like I said, it boils down to societal expectations which made those the norm and split the material the way they did into grades. There is no such thing as taking this math instead of that math in Italy - and yet kids manage to pass grades. Not saying that's an ideal way of doing it (the opposite way of approaching it is one of the few advantages of the American system in my eyes), but kids are going through it, and I read so much needless panic in this thread - while if 8th grade becomes the new norm, it will become the new norm and college-bound kids will cope with it, because that's how it goes. Just like if we put cursive in the first grade - a few years of shock, but afterwards kids will cope, parents will cope, expectations will have changed and people will approach it as a perfectly normal thing, as it already is in many places, for ALL kids (1st grade is before any sort of grouping of kids by academic abilities).

 

Does it mean that academics should be pushed younger and younger? IMO no, but IF it happens in this specific case for a single year younger, probably no huge damage will be done anyway and after a few years people will accustom to it as well. No need to panic, that's my point. :)

Edited September 13, 2010 by Ester Maria

[regentrude]

What we've found from our exchange students is that it isn't so much a difference in ability or expectations as it is a difference in sorting kids by academic ability at a much younger age than the US typically does. In some countries, the sorting starts really early. Those who are considered to have academic talent are in one group - moderate talent in another - and low talent in yet another. Then classes and their future are planned accordingly. Not all are even in what we consider high school. Our high schools accommodate all students up through 12 or 13 years of schooling. Therefore, our different groups are also there - not at different schools or out in apprentice types of situations. They are often being compared with just the top academic kids in other countries.

 

That is definitely true. And it makes a lot of sense to split up - for instance with respect to algebra: the kids who are able to learn it earlier, can - the kids who are not ready get it later. this benefits all students. (And yes, the late bloomers do have the opportunity to switch tracks.)

In contrast, in the US many gifted students spend their middle school years learning next to nothing because the rest of the class is not ready. (Spending three years on the arithmetic of fractions and decimals is not necessary even for a student of average intelligence!) It is such a waste of time an potential. For us this was ultimately the reason to homeschool.

I do not understand why there is so much resistance in this country to offering differentiated education approaches - everything has to be "one size fits all".

[Ester Maria]

I do not understand why there is so much resistance in this country to offering differentiated education approaches - everything has to be "one size fits all".

PC... You're forgetting about the ultra-PC society you came to. It often borders a crime in their eyes to make such an un-PC selection, openly admitting that there ARE differences in cognitive and overall intellectual development of children, and that not all kids (should) automatically go into the fastest track.

[OlgaLA]

What we've found from our exchange students is that it isn't so much a difference in ability or expectations as it is a difference in sorting kids by academic ability at a much younger age than the US typically does. In some countries, the sorting starts really early. Those who are considered to have academic talent are in one group - moderate talent in another - and low talent in yet another. Then classes and their future are planned accordingly. Not all are even in what we consider high school. Our high schools accommodate all students up through 12 or 13 years of schooling. Therefore, our different groups are also there - not at different schools or out in apprentice types of situations. They are often being compared with just the top academic kids in other countries.

 

I am not sure what countries you are talking about, but in Russia most of the sorting happens past algebra stage. What I think does make the difference is that elements of algebra are first introduced in the second half of the first grade and it builds up from there. Nobody calls it algebra, of course. Officially algebra starts at 7th grade now. It used to be 6th but they added another year to the program. Differentiation happens after 9th grade now. You can go to a vocational training school, or stay in school and prepare for University. In either case you have to take algebra/calculus (there is trigonometry somewhere in there as well, but it is sort of the same subject - algebra and beginning of calculus. Geometry is a separate course from 7 to 11 grade.) for another two years, because it is a part of the standard, although quality-wise the programs are probably light-years apart. And of course there are special schools that preselect students based on their talent/preparation/whatever starting at elementary schools, but those are more of an exception than a norm.

 

Anyway, having lived through the experience, I think that 8th grade is not too early for Algebra. And FWIW, middle schools around here offer Algebra I starting at 7th grade. Looking at the test results, there are no students in 7-8 grades who scored even basic - all advanced/proficient. The results for those who take it in high schools are not so great and include quite a few failing scores. Of course, it doesn't mean that taking it early has its advantages, but rather that if a student is ready, the age shouldn't be an obstacle. On the other hand, it is hard to expect a student to be ready by 7th grade if half of the third grade is spent doing "reviewing" addition/subtraction facts.

[creekland]

I'm always talking from a lycee perspective - college-bound track. FWIW, in Italy separation begins only in 8th grade, for the vast majority, when high schools are being chosen.

The sole wording of the first post in the thread implies that's what's being discussed: an educational experience of a college-bound student, rather than the kind of student that just wants to get the basic requirements done e basta (that kind of situation I would compare with some other situations in other countries, not with lycees).

Therefore, I compare that sort of student with his rough equivalent in other school systems. Other school systems tend to speed up math a bit more than the US for that kind of student, a trend that seems to be catching the US as well, which I don't necessarily see as a bad trend. If it becomes a new expectation for the college-bound, most of the kids will be fine, as the whole system will be set that way that algebra is taken in 8th grade.

The worth of the person has very little to do with formal academics anyway, and we all know it. It doesn't mean we can't look critically at the standards. In many countries the sole concept of tailoring your own education as in the US high schools is unheard of (Italy is one of them) and kids do just fine with what's a "prescribed" sequence of subjects and material - again, like I said, it boils down to societal expectations which made those the norm and split the material the way they did into grades. There is no such thing as taking this math instead of that math in Italy - and yet kids manage to pass grades. Not saying that's an ideal way of doing it (the opposite way of approaching it is one of the few advantages of the American system in my eyes), but kids are going through it, and I read so much needless panic in this thread - while if 8th grade becomes the new norm, it will become the new norm and college-bound kids will cope with it, because that's how it goes. Just like if we put cursive in the first grade - a few years of shock, but afterwards kids will cope, parents will cope, expectations will have changed and people will approach it as a perfectly normal thing, as it already is in many places, for ALL kids (1st grade is before any sort of grouping of kids by academic abilities).

 

Does it mean that academics should be pushed younger and younger? IMO no, but IF it happens in this specific case for a single year younger, probably no huge damage will be done anyway and after a few years people will accustom to it as well. No need to panic, that's my point. :)

 

I agree with the majority that you have written - enough to more or less simply say, I agree. ;)

 

Edited to add that in the US not everyone who is heading to college is heading to a college of the same caliber as those in Europe - hence, the OP could be referring to different options still. That's the one point I meant to bring out and forgot as I was typing... It's similar to levels of high school. Highly selective colleges require X, selective colleges require Y, not so selective colleges require Z. Students of any caliber can (and do) select any type based on what they want to do and the experience they want or cost or whatever, but the requirements to be accepted can vary immensely.

 

I'm sorry I put my second point into a post quoting your first part. It was intended to go back to that post comparing cc to 4 year students and those who have had students taking math classes later than average who might have taken the posts of folks like me with students on the "faster track" in the wrong context.

Edited September 13, 2010 by creekland

[creekland]

That is definitely true. And it makes a lot of sense to split up - for instance with respect to algebra: the kids who are able to learn it earlier, can - the kids who are not ready get it later. this benefits all students. (And yes, the late bloomers do have the opportunity to switch tracks.)

In contrast, in the US many gifted students spend their middle school years learning next to nothing because the rest of the class is not ready. (Spending three years on the arithmetic of fractions and decimals is not necessary even for a student of average intelligence!) It is such a waste of time an potential. For us this was ultimately the reason to homeschool.

I do not understand why there is so much resistance in this country to offering differentiated education approaches - everything has to be "one size fits all".

 

:iagree: 100% here. I wish our kids could decide upon a track at 6th, 8th, or 9th grades. Some of them sitting in school are bored stiff and wouldn't be if they could be on a course more aligned with what they want to do in life. It would be better all around IMO.

[creekland]

I am not sure what countries you are talking about, but in Russia most of the sorting happens past algebra stage. What I think does make the difference is that elements of algebra are first introduced in the second half of the first grade and it builds up from there. Nobody calls it algebra, of course. Officially algebra starts at 7th grade now. It used to be 6th but they added another year to the program. Differentiation happens after 9th grade now. You can go to a vocational training school, or stay in school and prepare for University. In either case you have to take algebra/calculus (there is trigonometry somewhere in there as well, but it is sort of the same subject - algebra and beginning of calculus. Geometry is a separate course from 7 to 11 grade.) for another two years, because it is a part of the standard, although quality-wise the programs are probably light-years apart. And of course there are special schools that preselect students based on their talent/preparation/whatever starting at elementary schools, but those are more of an exception than a norm.

 

Anyway, having lived through the experience, I think that 8th grade is not too early for Algebra. And FWIW, middle schools around here offer Algebra I starting at 7th grade. Looking at the test results, there are no students in 7-8 grades who scored even basic - all advanced/proficient. The results for those who take it in high schools are not so great and include quite a few failing scores. Of course, it doesn't mean that taking it early has its advantages, but rather that if a student is ready, the age shouldn't be an obstacle. On the other hand, it is hard to expect a student to be ready by 7th grade if half of the third grade is spent doing "reviewing" addition/subtraction facts.

 

Russia is not one we've had, but I'd love to! ;) Thanks for letting us know how things are done there. It appears to be similar to a bit of Europe in that courses are mixed and taught more throughout the years instead of just in one year as they can be here (but aren't totally in reality).

 

Otherwise, I agree with you. I'm all in favor of having kids do Alg 1 in 7th if they are ready, in 8th if they are ready, or in 9th if they are ready... with the "average" being 8th grade for most students. I also think math should be sped up for earlier grades for those ready for it. Here they don't start grouping kids for math until 5th grade - meaning many elementary talented math kids are REALLY bored.

[StephanieZ]

I think that there is a good bit of flexibility in when to do Alg, and whether to do Calc. . .

 

. . .except in the case of a student who might apply to a very competitive engineering school. Those students would definitely be best served by taking Calc before they get to college. When my dad went to MIT in the 60s, he self-studied Calc the summer before he entered b/c "all" (his words) the other students had already had it. He said they had mostly all attended fancy private prep-schools, whereas he has attended a ps which did not even offer Calculus.

 

Today, as calculus is generally available in most/all highschools, I'd expect a selective math/engineering type school to expect their applicants to have chosen to take it -- as they are looking for the students who are strongest in those areas.

 

In general, if looking at a selective college, I know they all purport to consider how much the student has chosen difficult courses & 'taken advantage' of the opportunities for advanced study that were available. So, I'd think that if the student *can competently* complete math courses a bit earlier and complete Calc b4 college, then it will reflect well on the child. I'd imagine that it is fairly rare for a student to get into an Ivy or similar level school w/o Calc on the transcript. I'd imagine that those who do have unique strengths in other areas and/or were in an unusual schooling environment (overseas, tiny town, tiny school, etc) that didn't offer ready access to advanced math courses at a more rapid pace.

 

For a more modest college like a state uni, etc (unless competing for selective honors/merit aid), then I'd expect it not to matter much whether Alg was taken in 7th, 8th, or 9th, as the child would likely have plenty of company in any event.

[Murphy101]

PC... You're forgetting about the ultra-PC society you came to. It often borders a crime in their eyes to make such an un-PC selection, openly admitting that there ARE differences in cognitive and overall intellectual development of children, and that not all kids (should) automatically go into the fastest track.

 

:iagree:

 

And yet,there IS a valid reason for the hackles to rise about it.

 

because historically, you could very literally draw a line on the map of where in every city that fast track would run and where it wouldn't. The irish district. The black district. The trailer park area. Whatever pending the times and locale, Minorities, poor people, and so forth almost never got the chance to get in that track. In effect, this mentality was applied to anyone that a certain group of people felt couldn't hack it, usually for reasons that had very little to do with actual mental ability.

 

So when someone rightly makes this statement, certain people who remember

history also rightly get a bit worried about history being repeated.:)

[ereks mom]

For our state system, they're requiring 4 yrs math Alg I & above, so as long as you have 4 yrs of math (Alg I & II, Geometry, Stats/pre-calc/trig, etc) would work.

 

:iagree:

[Tiramisu]

Go read what Harvard's website says about this in the preparing for college section. I know a large handful of students here who took Algebra in public school in 8th grade and then repeated it in 9th grade when they got accepted at a private school. The private school insisted on it.

 

http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/apply/preparing/index.html

 

I liked this so much I'll share the link. :)

[Storm Bay]

:iagree:

 

And yet,there IS a valid reason for the hackles to rise about it.

 

because historically, you could very literally draw a line on the map of where in every city that fast track would run and where it wouldn't. The irish district. The black district. The trailer park area. Whatever pending the times and locale, Minorities, poor people, and so forth almost never got the chance to get in that track. In effect, this mentality was applied to anyone that a certain group of people felt couldn't hack it, usually for reasons that had very little to do with actual mental ability.

 

So when someone rightly makes this statement, certain people who remember

history also rightly get a bit worried about history being repeated.:)

 

Right. If you're going to add a fast track, you have to make it available to every district. In this local ps there are 3 or 4 tracks per main subject, and often 2 in other ones & you have to be tested before you can enter the honours, and if you are coming in from homeschool (the ps dc have all been tested & tracked accordingly). Only dc who test high enough do Algebra in grade 8, but I'm not sure if everyone in that honours math is truly ready or not, since finishing everything prior to Algebra doesn't necessarily mean you're ready for it.

[Murphy101]

Right. If you're going to add a fast track, you have to make it available to every district. In this local ps there are 3 or 4 tracks per main subject, and often 2 in other ones & you have to be tested before you can enter the honours, and if you are coming in from homeschool (the ps dc have all been tested & tracked accordingly). Only dc who test high enough do Algebra in grade 8, but I'm not sure if everyone in that honours math is truly ready or not, since finishing everything prior to Algebra doesn't necessarily mean you're ready for it.

 

 

Uhhuh.

 

But that usually is not what happens.

 

Usually what happens is the school says they don't have enough student for fast track teachers to be hired, so the few kids who would otherwise qualify get screwed and get nothing. The school "says" they will offer it, but the reality is it never actually happens. Same thing happens with special needs services all the time. Oh yes Mrs we hope to have a teacher for that NEXT year. Yes Mrs we understand, but we are suffering budget cuts...

 

It happens. All. The. Time.

 

In better off areas there are more funds and more parents with the time to fight for better. In other areas.. Not so lucky.

 

Personally I agree. I think we should do away with grade levels and simply expect progress in each subject until it mastered sufficiently. The biggest problem with holding kids back, is it put their entire life on hold when rarely do they start out behind in every thing. I think that is often why holding back doesn't pay off. Even if the kid picks up in the subject they were behind in, they are behind in everything else due to boredom and lack of progressing.

 

Sigh.

 

What I really think is that govt public schools are what should be done away with.

[Brindee]

http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/apply/preparing/index.html

 

I liked this so much I'll share the link. :)

:001_smile: Thanks for sharing that! I like this part from the Harvard Prep pamphlet:

 

If you are well-versed in algebra, functions, and graphing, secondary school calculus will enable you to take more advanced introductory courses in mathematics, physics, and chemistry in college. But do not rush into calculus. It may surprise you to know that success in first-year quantitative courses at college is determined more by the strength of your proficiency in algebra, functions, and graphing than by whether or not you have studied calculus in secondary school. Courses in the natural and social sciences often depend more on a real understanding of the behavior of different kinds of functions than on the ability to use calculus.

In the last analysis, however, it is not what courses you have taken, but how much you have thought about mathematics, that counts. More important than the knowledge of a specific mathematical topic, is the willingness to tackle new problems.

[Teachin'Mine]

http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/apply/preparing/index.html

 

I liked this so much I'll share the link. :)

 

Thank you! And thank you to the pp for mentioning this too! :)

[mom31257]

I'm glad to read most of this because dd isn't doing Algebra 1 until 9th grade. She is not a math lover (like her mother!), so I didn't want to push her into it in middle school.

[creekland]

I'm glad to read most of this because dd isn't doing Algebra 1 until 9th grade. She is not a math lover (like her mother!), so I didn't want to push her into it in middle school.

 

Even though my kids are doing Alg 1 earlier, I find no reason to push it on a student that isn't ready. There's also no reason to push math earlier on those who aren't going to need much advanced math for their career or college major.

 

At our high school I regularly get asked by students which math they should be taking next. Then I ask them what their post high school plan is. If they aren't going into a math-needed field I tell them there's absolutely no need to take Calculus. Some stick with Stats, others with College Alg (if they are beyond Pre-Calc). Some don't need either. If they are going into a math-needed field I recommend they take Calc, but unless they feel REALLY confident in it, I recommend they re-take Calc their Freshman fall semester for two reasons. One, it should give them a strong foundation in it. Two, it'll give them an easier class as they adjust to college life in general. When my oldest and I were visiting multiple colleges his junior year I shared my thoughts with those in the various departments we were in. EVERY last one of the profs agreed with me. The cynic might say it was because they were talking to a prospective parent, and therefore, 'tis wise to agree with anything said. I like to think it's because it's a wise suggestion that they agree with.

 

For what it's worth, when students return to our high school during or after college they also tend to agree with me.

 

My own son tested out of Calc, but doesn't need a math class in college (because of it). If he did, I'd still suggest he start with first semester Calc again. It's better to be bored than overwhelmed - esp with the adjustment to college. For those really confident in their Calc abilities and in a math heavy major (Engineering, Physics, Math all come to mind), then I might suggest otherwise.

[distancia]

My dd16 struggled through math mightily and (in her mind) hopelessly, until last year....(now) She feels like something just clicked on in her brain when she hit that particular stage and she was able to understand the abstract processes necessary for math...

 

This is exactly the same thing my D (17.5) has been saying to me these past few weeks! For some reason all the math that she had learned--but never understood--is now "coming together and clicking" in her brain.

 

While in public school my D took Alg 1 in 8th grade for a B, repeated it in 9th grade for a C!, took Geometry in 10th (another C), then Algebra 2 in 11th for a B. This year , as Senior, she has gone back to basics for a review of division, fractions, percents, and Pre-Algebra, which will give her the foundation to go through Algebra 1 and Geometry again. then refresh her Algebra 2 and step into some Pre-Calc.

 

My girl is highly gifted verbally (and a bit ADD, also) and it's my belief that her brain just couldn't develop rapidly in all areas. Something had to "give", and that something was her "math brain". Now that she has plateaued on her verbal/English side of her brain, it's time for the other areas to catch up.

[Storm Bay]

Uhhuh.

 

But that usually is not what happens.

 

 

Personally I agree. I think we should do away with grade levels and simply expect progress in each subject until it mastered sufficiently. The biggest problem with holding kids back, is it put their entire life on hold when rarely do they start out behind in every thing. I think that is often why holding back doesn't pay off. Even if the kid picks up in the subject they were behind in, they are behind in everything else due to boredom and lack of progressing.

 

Sigh.

 

What I really think is that govt public schools are what should be done away with.

:iagree: about the grade levels. I had so much trouble with this & I wasn't in any minority. I don't know how good the school we had in my home area was, though, because the gifted dc only scored around the 85th percentile in some standardized test in grade 8 or 9.