Child taught reading phonetically switching to the "other" method?

[Renee in NC]

My dd is going to school Monday and had her placement test for 1st grade today.

 

She read "Hop on Pop" to me yesterday and regularly reads books in the 1.0-1.7 range. We are using Spell to Write and Read, so when I read with her, I don't let her guess at a word she doesn't know, but I help her sound it out using the phonograms and the rules.

 

She couldn't read at the level they expect of kindergarten children leaving K. The teacher who tested her and I discussed it and basically they teach them to guess what a word is based on content and/or the picture in the book. This was very difficult for a child who has never been allowed to guess!

 

How do I get her to guess? Is someone familiar enough with this method that they can direct me to a list or something of what they should do when they get to a word they don't know?

 

I really hate for her to start guessing, but at the same time she *is* going to school and now their "rules" apply, KWIM? I don't think it will harm her in the long run.

[Renee in NC]

Okay, I am confused. I just looked at DRA Level books (what the school uses) and looked up the books that she has read to me.

 

Hop on Pop is an 18.

Go Dog Go is an 8.

 

She can read both of those independently. However, the book they wanted her to read that was a 6 was MUCH more difficult than either of those.

 

Bears on Wheels is a 6 - I am pretty sure she could read this as well.

 

Should I just not worry about this?

[jg_puppy]

I don't think I would worry about this much.

 

Here is a poster I have seen teachers use. http://www.carsondellosa.com/cd2/Products/CarsonDellosa/PID-6289.aspx

 

Jan

 

Here is a better link to show the picture. http://www.teachersparadise.com/c/chartlet-reading-clues-hung-up-on-a-word-17-x-22-p-7083.html

 

Also I am not saying that I agree with this poster. Just that I have seen the poster in classrooms.

Edited September 10, 2010 by jg_puppy

[Ellie]

I would not teach her to guess. In fact, I'm thinking that you should continue to work with her at home (if that's possible), because she will need all the help she can get.

 

It's hard to believe that public schools are still using sight reading, after all the years of documented pathetic literacy scores. :glare:

[Matryoshka]

IHere is a poster I have seen teachers use. http://www.carsondellosa.com/cd2/Products/CarsonDellosa/PID-6289.aspx

 

 

:ack2: That seems waaaay more complicated and convoluted than just READING the letters in the word!

[Snickerdoodle]

The teacher who tested her and I discussed it and basically they teach them to guess what a word is based on content and/or the picture in the book.

 

I'm amazed you kept a straight face.

 

I can't imagine someone saying this to me and actually mean it.

 

:grouphug:

 

I would work with her at home.

[Cindyz]

I would not teach her to guess. In fact, I'm thinking that you should continue to work with her at home (if that's possible), because she will need all the help she can get.

 

It's hard to believe that public schools are still using sight reading, after all the years of documented pathetic literacy scores. :glare:

 

I agree. Here's an interesting video on the topic.

 

[Mosaicmind]

When ds8 was in school last year he was put in a title 1 class for reading. All of my boys haven't really started reading until the end of second grade and I told them I wasn't worried but they told me that he really needed to be in this program. I conceded and he started going to a separate class for 30min each day to be taught how to read. After 9 wks he was doing ok, but I found that he was confused when I took a book out that had no pictures or if I asked him to read a book they hadn't had him read he really didn't know how to sound out a word.

 

I found out after my first parent-teacher conference that they don't teach phonics by sight-reading. UGH!!! I promptly told them he would not be coming back to the title 1 reading class and that I would just teach him to read at home. I even told them I would come to the school during their reading time in class to help him if I needed to, but they were NOT to teach him how to read because this would be horrible for him down the road. How do I know that? Because ds12 was in ps for 1/2 of his K and all of 1st because I was in the hospital and he doesn't know phonics and therefore can't spell.

 

You don't have to let them do this. I agree with the other poster, why do they keep teaching them to sight read or guess with pics when it's been proven to be harmful in the long run. Makes no sense.

[Renee in NC]

I will of course still work with her at home, it was mostly that the levels and the methods made no sense to me.

 

I'll just keep teaching her to sound words out.

[cathmom]

I still think it's because they can't sit and help a whole classroom of children with reading, so it's easier for them if the children guess.

[ElizabethB]

Yes, they can switch over to whole word guessing, but the long term results are bad for many children.

 

Do not encourage guessing, and start teaching the sight words phonetically now to head off them being learned as wholes.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/sightwords.html

 

I would also start doing some nonsense words a few times a week to work on sounding things out from L to R and not guessing.

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

I haven't read all the other responses, but.....

I have some related experience....

Two of my children had some difficulties with learning to read. I'm not going into the whole story here..... only the solution that worked for us.

 

When my child would get to a word that they did not know, I would let them attempt to sound it out. After a try or two, I would tell them the word and ask them to repeat that word to me. Sometimes there was a picture on the page that WOULD prompt the word. Instead of asking my child to "guess",after telling him the word and having him repeat it to me, I would point out the picture and tell him that sometimes the pictures could help him read new words.

 

I taught a method of thinking..... NOT guessing. As they got older, I think would point out the the context of the story line or the sentence could help them figure out a word. Once again, not guessing, but thinking through the known to help with an unknown.

 

The teacher is not going to have time to do that. But if you read one storybook a day with your child, you can teach that method in a couple of weeks.

[siloam]

I would not teach her to guess. In fact, I'm thinking that you should continue to work with her at home (if that's possible), because she will need all the help she can get.

 

It's hard to believe that public schools are still using sight reading, after all the years of documented pathetic literacy scores. :glare:

 

What Ellie said. Guessing will only cause you more problems long term.

 

Heather

[Renee in NC]

Yes, they can switch over to whole word guessing, but the long term results are bad for many children.

 

Do not encourage guessing, and start teaching the sight words phonetically now to head off them being learned as wholes.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/sightwords.html

 

I would also start doing some nonsense words a few times a week to work on sounding things out from L to R and not guessing.

 

These were not the sight words - these were just bigger words that she hadn't gotten to, like Wednesday. She was expected to guess what it was based on the context. Having been told that the boy went to art class one day a week - she was supposed to guess that it was a week day name and since it started with a W would be Wednesday.

 

She's just never been taught to guess, so she just didn't know it. She knew all the sight words for K - some are really phonetic and others she has come across in her reading many times before. Those were not the problem.

 

We'll just get "4" books at the library and work our way up with reading practice. It shouldn't take long.

 

BTW, she is starting 1st grade.

[Marie in Oh]

if you don't think she is going to struggle, it probably won't matter. The method used in most public schools does work for some children. How would our society be so literate if it didn't since 90% of children receive that kind of reading instruction? I know it is not best, but all the kids that go to our church receive that kind of reading instruction, and by 3rd grade, most of them are reading at least at grade level. Where things break down is the kids who struggle. Those are the kids who need 100% phonics with no sight words or guessing. The problem is, by the time the school has identified those kids, the damage has been done. What I am saying is that if you keep working with her at home, I don't think the bit of phonics she gets at school is going to undo her. A few sight words are fine. I teach mine some after they can read short vowel words, and none of them struggle at all with reading. It helps them build more fluancy and they can read books that are less controlled earlier. Good luck with your public school endeavor.

[mom4knights]

I would definitely recommend to keep working with her phonics at home. I worked as a tutor in high school and college and could not believe the number of kids that struggled with reading and spelling ~ they had one thing in common -- all taught using the "whole" language approach.

 

Just this week, we kept one of our neighbor's daughter overnight. She is 5 yrs. old and is in K ~ I helped her with her homework, which was a long list of reading words. The note to parents actually stated to NOT let them sound out the word -- these were words to be memorized only!!!! REALLY???:confused: How is a child supposed to respond when they come across a word they have not "memorized"?

 

I teach some sight words along with our phonics lesson (a, the, for, to, etc.), but I just do not agree with teaching a solely whole language approach.

 

Another example of someone who struggles still today from learning the whole language approach is my MIL - she grew up in a wealthy family in Milwaukee and went to an elite private boarding school for girls and has travelled the world {as an aside, much different life when she married my FIL who was a poor hog farmer ~ but they have a neat story!:D} Anyway, she was taught the whole language approach b/c that is when it was the "new" and "best" way to do things. She laments to this day that she struggles with some words and her spelling is horrible!!! She definitely encourages teaching phonics.

 

Just my 2 cents!:)

[PeterPan]

Renee, I don't really know the whole context of your situation, but if you're using SWR to teach her to read, have you pondered picking up the pace and doing it the way Sanseri says? See Sanseri doesn't encourage sounding out to read. You teach the spelling lists, keep a fast pace, and let the reading happen spontaneously. Everyone has a different opinion on that, but it's what she says and what we did. Worked GREAT, and in your case wouldn't take long to get her reading at a 2nd+ reading level. I'd focus on the spelling lists, move her forward, and let the reading come. And no, I wouldn't encourage guessing or any of the other ps (insert any word stronger than ineffective, misleading stupidity).

[Renee in NC]

Renee, I don't really know the whole context of your situation, but if you're using SWR to teach her to read, have you pondered picking up the pace and doing it the way Sanseri says? See Sanseri doesn't encourage sounding out to read. You teach the spelling lists, keep a fast pace, and let the reading happen spontaneously. Everyone has a different opinion on that, but it's what she says and what we did. Worked GREAT, and in your case wouldn't take long to get her reading at a 2nd+ reading level. I'd focus on the spelling lists, move her forward, and let the reading come. And no, I wouldn't encourage guessing or any of the other ps (insert any word stronger than ineffective, misleading stupidity).

 

I guess I could continue teaching 10 words a day. We just started SWR this school year (she did 100 Easy Lesson last year.) She can read the A-I words, but I would like to increase her spelling ability.

[ClassicalTwins]

My dd is going to school Monday and had her placement test for 1st grade today.

 

She read "Hop on Pop" to me yesterday and regularly reads books in the 1.0-1.7 range. We are using Spell to Write and Read, so when I read with her, I don't let her guess at a word she doesn't know, but I help her sound it out using the phonograms and the rules.

 

She couldn't read at the level they expect of kindergarten children leaving K. The teacher who tested her and I discussed it and basically they teach them to guess what a word is based on content and/or the picture in the book. This was very difficult for a child who has never been allowed to guess!

 

How do I get her to guess? Is someone familiar enough with this method that they can direct me to a list or something of what they should do when they get to a word they don't know?

 

I really hate for her to start guessing, but at the same time she *is* going to school and now their "rules" apply, KWIM? I don't think it will harm her in the long run.

 

Yea you DON"T want her to start guessing!!!!! It is terrible and I HATE it!! It is awful and you will want to pull your hair out...just a fair warning! Mine were phonetic readers before school and school taught them to guess, now they are confused little second graders who struggle to read Hop on Pop...

 

A thread to read:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184677

[ClassicalTwins]

I'm amazed you kept a straight face.

 

I can't imagine someone saying this to me and actually mean it.

 

:grouphug:

 

I would work with her at home.

 

Yes and I am living through the nightmare of this method...as I say everytime I read this stuff

 

 

Please.make.the.guessing.stop!!!!!

[ElizabethB]

Wednesday can be sounded out as a close approximation with my syllable division rules.

 

I would teach her the syllable division rules and have her divide and sound out a few words a day from each of my syllable division exercises, they are linked at the end of my how to tutor page.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/howtotutor.html

[Renee in NC]

Wednesday can be sounded out as a close approximation with my syllable division rules.

 

I would teach her the syllable division rules and have her divide and sound out a few words a day from each of my syllable division exercises, they are linked at the end of my how to tutor page.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/howtotutor.html

 

I printed them. I agree that Wednesday can be sounded out phonetically, just not by my 6yo yet. She just started reading simple 2 syllable words (something, funny, happy, kitten, princess, etc.)

[campmom]

Does she have to go to school this year? It seems that if you could keep her home another year and get her reading well phonetically then she would be so much better off in the long term, and going to school next year. BTW my oldest went to ps in K and 1st and learned to read with this guessing method it is absolutely the biggest mistake I ever made in the education of my children. I was never able to "fix" the mistake he's 23 now. It is a regret I live with.

[ElizabethB]

:D

I printed them. I agree that Wednesday can be sounded out phonetically, just not by my 6yo yet. She just started reading simple 2 syllable words (something, funny, happy, kitten, princess, etc.)

 

That's actually pretty good for a beginning 1st grader!

 

If you try with dashes, it is easier for them to sound out longer words at first than spaces or lines.

 

fan-tas-tic

 

Edit: maybe you need to print out a copy of the syllable division rules for the teacher! :D:lol: (I don't actually advise this, but it is tempting!!)

[EKS]

Have her learn the Dolch list. It really helps to get them reading what "they" think is appropriate. Practically all of the words can be decoded using phonics.

[Renee in NC]

Thanks, everyone. These were not Dolch words - she knows most of the Primer and First Grade words already. These were words that were important to the story that the reader was supposed to be able to guess based on the context and/or the picture. The word "art", for example, was guessable because it showed him going into a classroom full of art supplies. (Yes, I realize art is totally decodable, but the students in K had not learned /ar/ - I did some work for the teacher while I was waiting and looked through their entire phonics series.) My daughter *did* know art, BTW, because she knows the /ar/ phonogram. Part of the problem is that her experience thus far does not extend to going to the art room once per week!

 

I had her test 10 review words and dictated 10 new words from SWR - it only took about 15 minutes. We can continue doing that everyday with no problem. With that and daily reading, she should quickly get past where any of the leveled readers would be. It will also help with her writing. Some days we'll work on the charts instead of new words. She'll be happy to do it on Saturdays, too.

[ClassicalTwins]

The problem is they begin to guess everything...even words they know, it truly confuses the heck out of them....especially if other kids are not doing the sounding out thing (that painfully slow sound out thing we all love), so it begins to be an image thing so the kid stops doing what mom wants and doing what the teacher wants. I hope this is not what happens to your dd but exactly what I am trying to fix with my DS's....and it is not easy.

 

Edit: Such as the words "bat" and "but" they've know them a long time....if "but" is in the sentence and "bat" is the picture...they may say "bat" instead. UGH!!!!

Edited September 11, 2010 by ClassicalTwins

[Renee in NC]

The problem is they begin to guess everything...even words they know, it truly confuses the heck out of them....especially if other kids are not doing the sounding out thing (that painfully slow sound out thing we all love), so it begins to be an image thing so the kid stops doing what mom wants and doing what the teacher wants. I hope this is not what happens to your dd but exactly what I am trying to fix with my DS's....and it is not easy.

 

She doesn't sound anything out slowly like that anymore, thankfully. I know that most kids learn to read just fine with this method, I just don't want her confused and I would like to "finish" her phonics.

 

I am also glad that her brothers were not exposed to this method and most likely won't be - they should be IEP-ed within a few weeks.

[Farrar]

I know I'm in the minority here, but I doubt that learning a different way of thinking about reading will hurt her as long as you continue to provide her with a grounding in phonics. Ideally, *that's* what whole language should be like - phonics, sight words, guessing, and other strategies. The problem is that the kids in the class aren't learning the phonics piece, just the guessing one, which is sad.

 

My background is in teaching middle school humanities so I'm just learning with my own little ones about these first reading steps. In my former life, I taught kids of all levels and learning disabilities and got training in all kinds of different methods. I have to say, only in a couple rare cases did kids reach me without knowing how to decode words with pretty good accuracy. However, what most lacked was any sense of reading comprehension or ability to infer or think about the text. Seeing all the cover up the pictures types on this board makes me cringe because it removes context, which students need later on. In our house, we try to strike a balance. We play games with words and practice words without context or learn the "rules" for words, but when we read a story, I have no problem when they guess the words or employ any other kinds of reading strategies.

 

Again, I know I'm in the minority around here. But I just think the dire warnings in this thread were a little strong. If she's already reading two-syllable words in 1st grade, then she's doing fine and I doubt school will hurt her in reading in the long run.

[Renee in NC]

I know I'm in the minority here, but I doubt that learning a different way of thinking about reading will hurt her as long as you continue to provide her with a grounding in phonics. Ideally, *that's* what whole language should be like - phonics, sight words, guessing, and other strategies. The problem is that the kids in the class aren't learning the phonics piece, just the guessing one, which is sad.

 

My background is in teaching middle school humanities so I'm just learning with my own little ones about these first reading steps. In my former life, I taught kids of all levels and learning disabilities and got training in all kinds of different methods. I have to say, only in a couple rare cases did kids reach me without knowing how to decode words with pretty good accuracy. However, what most lacked was any sense of reading comprehension or ability to infer or think about the text. Seeing all the cover up the pictures types on this board makes me cringe because it removes context, which students need later on. In our house, we try to strike a balance. We play games with words and practice words without context or learn the "rules" for words, but when we read a story, I have no problem when they guess the words or employ any other kinds of reading strategies.

 

Again, I know I'm in the minority around here. But I just think the dire warnings in this thread were a little strong. If she's already reading two-syllable words in 1st grade, then she's doing fine and I doubt school will hurt her in reading in the long run.[/QUote]

 

Thanks! I am sure she will be fine - I want her to feel successful in school as well as learning what I think she needs to know!:D