proselytizing and free speech?

[kiana]

At this point, if I did believe there was a car coming, I would flag it down and ask it to drive carefully as there was one who was unaware ahead.

 

Nice response.

[kalanamak]

Nice response.

 

And genuinely sincere. To translate into Christianity, I would pray for the person. I admit to knowing very little about what it means or feels like to be a Christian, and having never prayed in my life, I am operating under the impression Christians feel their God is much more powerful than a mere human, just as the driver of a 2 ton vehicle is more "powerful" than a pedestrian or on-looker.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

In keeping with the thread, I hold with those who say, "yes, you can say whatever you like, and I can disagree with you. Free speech doesn't mean I have to privilege your speech, and esteem it. In fact, your speech will likely affect how I think of you, for better or worse. Welcome to the consequences of your free speech."

 

As to the suffering of the poor whites, like me, and how we're just as put upon as people of color, (or whatever terms you want to use, crossing swords on the point is merely derailing) I encourage folks to Google, "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack." I found it really fascinating and finally began understanding racism beyond "racism is hating people of a different racial background than you." Truly, eye-opening. It's not a difficult read, and there are about 50 bullet points to make for easy accessibility, if not easy thought matter.

 

 

Thank you so much for that! I read "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" just now and wish that everyone in my family of origin would read it, but they would never do such a thing.

 

I sooo tire of hearing, "yeah, but I've been a victim of prejudice because I'm white, too!"

 

NOT THE SAME THING AT ALL. We live with such privilege and we don't even realize it.

 

I agree with the others who said that many xians are, imho, grossly misinformed as to their duty to proselytize. Why not live out your convictions? Why not live your life as a xian and let it show that way? Why the brow-beating? Why the walking up to strangers just so you can spew your opinion on others who may not care to hear it? Would xians be as accomodating of "free speech" if I wanted to follow them around and tell them why I think that what they believe is a load of bunk? Oh,no that would be considered harassment, but what Kirk Cameron and his friend, Mr. "this is why there is a god, because a coke can has a manufacturer" do by harassing people on the street and teaching others to do the same, THAT is supposed to be okay, welcomed, protected?

 

Gimme a break!

 

Freedom of speech is about the fact that you won't be sactioned by a governemnt agency/punished for speaking freely, it doesn't give you a right to harass people. I SHOULD be able to walk down the street without having to dodge religious fanatics and religious people should be able to do the same without having ME harass them about their beliefs!

 

Yep, it goes both ways.

[Lovedtodeath]

That is very thought provoking Cyndi. Great post.

[Lovedtodeath]

As to the suffering of the poor whites, like me, and how we're just as put upon as people of color, (or whatever terms you want to use, crossing swords on the point is merely derailing) I encourage folks to Google, "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack." I found it really fascinating and finally began understanding racism beyond "racism is hating people of a different racial background than you." Truly, eye-opening. It's not a difficult read, and there are about 50 bullet points to make for easy accessibility, if not easy thought matter.

I am very hesitant to post this, if that means something but here goes...

Hmmmm.... I read it. I don't see it changing my views at all. I don't think this stuff applies anymore.

 

My husband works in construction and the vast majority of new homes being built are being bought by African Americans. I have had many jobs in which I was surrounded by African Americans and I was treated badly because I was not one. I have had bosses and supervisors that were African American. I have also hired both Caucasians and African Americans for all different job positions that we were hiring in an equal amount. I have gone to stores and not received customer service because of my race. I have been surrounded by African American friends who are very vocal and who are in academic classes, cheerleaders, etc.

 

The president of the US was voted into office. Let's think about that one.... is there a glass ceiling?

Edited July 3, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I am very hesitant to post this, if that means something but here goes...

Hmmmm.... I read it. I don't see it changing my views at all. I don't think this stuff applies anymore.

 

My husband works in construction and the vast majority of new homes being built are being bought by African Americans. I have had many jobs in which I was surrounded by African Americans and I was treated badly because I was not one. I have had bosses and supervisors that were African American. I have gone to stores and not received customer service because of my race. I have been surrounded by African American friends who are very vocal and who are in academic classes, cheerleaders, etc.

 

The president of the US was voted into office. Let's think about that one.... is there a glass ceiling?

 

I do see what you are saying, but I think that the article still applies. (not just to people of colour, but of all marginalized groups.)

 

I was just talking to my oldest dd about how when we moved to this neighborhood no less than 3 different people approached us to tell us in hushed voices that "the lady next door is lesbian" as if that would make any difference! I told them the same thing, every time, "oh, that's okay, I'm taken!" and they would look at me with shock and pity as if to say, "poor thing, she doesn't know to be concerned".

 

I seriously doubt that anyone said to the existing neighbors, in hushed tones, "just so ya know, the people moving in are.....a man....and a woman WHO ARE MARRIED (shudder)...and they brought children into that arrangement!"

 

I get it that white married people with kids are the norm and we happen to fit into it, but it makes me wonder about the people who do NOT fit into it and how they feel/are perceived. I just don't live their lives and when I DO experience any feelings of hostility from another group I recognize that it is likely a response to such hatred from people from MY group, not from ME, of course, but from people who look like me and it makes me feel bad for that marginalized group.

 

:grouphug:

[Gooblink]

Just some thoughts on this bunny trail:

 

I don't see the gospel as anywhere close to the truck barreling down the road analogy. Jesus had a lot to say about the peace that you would enjoy by living the life he modeled, and warnings about living a life of bad choices, but he wasn't screaming to people who didn't want to listen. In fact, before he performed a miracle or spoke a message, he: 1) was asked by someone who already believed he could do it, 2) himself asked if the person wanted to be healed before he did it, 3) said anyone who has an ear, let him hear, meaning anyone willing to listen and accept the message, come and hear it.

 

The only people he tended to yell at were the Pharisees - those self-righteous religious men who had all the answers and were so quick to judge.

 

So, yes, we Christians are to be witnesses, but first in the way we love, second in the way we live, and third by sharing to those who wish to hear it. I love what Paul says in Romans about living a life that others envy; not a materially rich life, of course, but one of peacefulness, gentleness, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, joyfulness, patience, self-control and, most of all, love.

[HRAAB]

Sharing your faith is when you and I are sitting at my kitchen table over a cup of tea. I'm listening to your thoughts, and you're listening to my thoughts. We're having a discussion.

 

Proselytizing is when you come onto my property uninvited, or when you put your unwanted tract under my windshield wiper or stick it into my children's trick or treat bag or try any other sneaky way to get it to me without asking up front if I want it or when you stop my children at a field trip and start preaching to them.

[Guest Amy in MS]

I am very hesitant to post this, if that means something but here goes...

Hmmmm.... I read it. I don't see it changing my views at all. I don't think this stuff applies anymore.

 

My husband works in construction and the vast majority of new homes being built are being bought by African Americans. I have had many jobs in which I was surrounded by African Americans and I was treated badly because I was not one. I have had bosses and supervisors that were African American. I have also hired both Caucasians and African Americans for all different job positions that we were hiring in an equal amount. I have gone to stores and not received customer service because of my race. I have been surrounded by African American friends who are very vocal and who are in academic classes, cheerleaders, etc.

 

The president of the US was voted into office. Let's think about that one.... is there a glass ceiling?

 

Yes, there's a black man in the white house. That's great! That's not the end of racism. I don't know how to explain it to you if you actually read the article and can't see it.

 

Here are some examples I've recognized in just recently in my own life.

 

1. I see it every month. A black family moves into our neighborhood, and signt-unseen several of my very Christian, very kind neighbors begin worrying about property values. If it were white people, we wouldn't have that.

 

2. I'm a white author and if I write about predominanty black characters a la _The Help_, I'm shelved in with contemporary lit. If I'm a black author I get put in with "African American literature."'

 

3. I've been noticing children of color in advertisements, etc. In fact, I noticed one the other day with no white children whatsoever! I was shocked for a second, and It took me back! I don't think I'd ever seen a commercial with no white kids. Then, I realized, Asian kids see commercials without them all the time, and until recently, black kids, too were for the most part unseen. Hello, American Indians? Those people don't even exist! I wouldn't be surprised if soon someone doesn't go off on how white people are being pushed out of commercials because there was one commercial where they aren't represented.

 

4. A couple of months ago, a friend of mine was feeling bad for her doctor because said friend walked into waiting room and it was full of young, fat, black women. "Stupid women like that. No wonder doctors are on their way out." Would her response have been so angry if she walked into a room of young, fat, white women. I doubt it. She was talking to a group of mostly overweight white women. Stupid was reserved for fat and black.

 

Back in grad school, I read a fascinating study on accent and prejudice. A black man called different apartment complexes using a "white sounding" accent and there were all sorts of vacancies. Then, he called back using a more "black-sounding accent," and, wouldn't you know, no vacancies!

 

Now, yes, might white people sometimes be victims of prejudice. You bet. And that's not right. But, what color are most people owning apartment complexes?

 

I'm sorry, I really don't want to hijack this trail, but the more I really learn about this, the more frustrated I get. "But we poor whites" gets really old. Feel free to respond, and I'll read, but I'm leaving this thread because there's nothing left for me to say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But, like I said, we can feel free to disagree.

[asta]

In keeping with the thread, I hold with those who say, "yes, you can say whatever you like, and I can disagree with you. Free speech doesn't mean I have to privilege your speech, and esteem it. In fact, your speech will likely affect how I think of you, for better or worse. Welcome to the consequences of your free speech."

 

As to the suffering of the poor whites, like me, and how we're just as put upon as people of color, (or whatever terms you want to use, crossing swords on the point is merely derailing) I encourage folks to Google, "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack." I found it really fascinating and finally began understanding racism beyond "racism is hating people of a different racial background than you." Truly, eye-opening. It's not a difficult read, and there are about 50 bullet points to make for easy accessibility, if not easy thought matter.

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but...

 

I didn't pull a Sarah Bernhardt in my post - I said I was treated like crap by the majority of people around me for being pale. This was my truth. I did not say I was "just as put upon" as anyone else. I simply stated that poor behavior was universal.

 

No one deserves to have their money thrown at them because a cashier doesn't want to touch their skin. No one deserves to be blatantly ignored by medical personnel in favor of someone else for whatever reason. For that matter, no one should be pushed aside in favor of anyone else out of favoritism. Yet it happens. I've seen it. I've lived it.

 

No one is picked out for special persecution any longer, despite protestations of "racism" every time one looks at the news. It has gotten to the point that the entire human race is treating itself like crap.

 

 

asta

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

I'm sorry, I really don't want to hijack this trail, but the more I really learn about this, the more frustrated I get. "But we poor whites" gets really old. Feel free to respond, and I'll read, but I'm leaving this thread because there's nothing left for me to say.

 

 

 

From your signature you live in the south? Perhaps it is more predominant there? (Perhaps my wondering this is a stereotype of the south, but I honestly do not know since I have not lived in the southern US.) I would be very very surprised if some of the anecdotes you mentioned occurred here in the Pacific NW. I'm sure some things do, but I haven't run into them.

[elegantlion]

From your signature you live in the south? Perhaps it is more predominant there? (Perhaps my wondering this is a stereotype of the south, but I honestly do not know since I have not lived in the southern US.) I would be very very surprised if some of the anecdotes you mentioned occurred here in the Pacific NW. I'm sure some things do, but I haven't run into them.

 

I grew up in the mid-west and moved to the south a few years. I was shocked, flabbergasted, and saddened by the racist remarks said to my face by other Caucasians shortly after we moved here. They assumed that because I was Caucasian I would automatically be a racist and would agree with them.

 

Shortly after we moved here an African American was elected mayor of one of the small neighboring towns. A few days before he was take office he was found dead. It was ruled a suicide, yet people we were acquainted with knew him very well and had good reasoning not to suspect suicide. A dispute went to the state police dept.

[Scarlett]

I grew up in the mid-west and moved to the south a few years. I was shocked, flabbergasted, and saddened by the racist remarks said to my face by other Caucasians shortly after we moved here. They assumed that because I was Caucasian I would automatically be a racist and would agree with them.

 

Shortly after we moved here an African American was elected mayor of one of the small neighboring towns. A few days before he was take office he was found dead. It was ruled a suicide, yet people we were acquainted with knew him very well and had good reasoning not to suspect suicide. A dispute went to the state police dept.

 

Racism is alive and well in the south.

 

One of my favorite :eek: stories is when a VP of my former employee came to our department looking for a girl---it so happened she had a black boyfriend (and two children by him---never did marry him but that is another story) Anyway, the VP couldn't think of her name and so he whispers to me......'you know...the one who has the black boyfriend.' I nearly LOL....I so wanted to say....'Um, I'm pretty sure she KNOWS he is black...no need to whisper.'

[Scarlett]

Here are some examples I've recognized in just recently in my own life.

 

 

 

Now, yes, might white people sometimes be victims of prejudice. You bet. And that's not right. But, what color are most people owning apartment complexes?

 

I'm sorry, I really don't want to hijack this trail, but the more I really learn about this, the more frustrated I get. "But we poor whites" gets really old. Feel free to respond, and I'll read, but I'm leaving this thread because there's nothing left for me to say.

 

I have to say I've never experienced racism...being white in the south.....and like Amy I have seen and heard plenty of stories like she mentioned in her post.

 

As an aside...is the expression 'white trash' a racist comment? I mean is the implication that most white people are trash....? I've tried to stop putting the word white in front of that expression if I feel I need to use it....:tongue_smilie:

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have to say I've never experienced racism...being white in the south.....and like Amy I have seen and heard plenty of stories like she mentioned in her post.

 

As an aside...is the expression 'white trash' a racist comment? I mean is the implication that most white people are trash....? I've tried to stop putting the word white in front of that expression if I feel I need to use it....:tongue_smilie:

 

No, the implication is that a subset of poor white people are trash.

[Plucky]

No, the implication is that a subset of poor white people are trash.

 

I think calling anyone trash is unacceptable.

[Scarlett]

No, the implication is that a subset of poor white people are trash.

 

Ooops....a typo in my post....what I MEANT to say was 'is the implication that most white people AREN'T trash?'

Edited July 3, 2010 by Scarlett
good grief....

[Scarlett]

No, the implication is that a subset of poor white people are trash.

 

Poor? Hmmm.....never knew that was part of the implication.....I think I better quite using that expression....

[Scarlett]

I think calling anyone trash is unacceptable.

 

Hmmm......I've seen some really trashy people....living worse than animals......

I wonder how you would describe people living like that?

[Plucky]

It depends. Folks that usually live like that are often mentally ill.

[Caroline]

I think calling anyone trash is unacceptable.

 

What she said...:iagree: (Although, I suppose the Constitution says you won't be thrown in jail for it.)

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think calling anyone trash is unacceptable.

 

I agree but I recognize what people mean when they say it.

[Guest rubilynne4]

Just some thoughts on this bunny trail:

 

I don't see the gospel as anywhere close to the truck barreling down the road analogy. Jesus had a lot to say about the peace that you would enjoy by living the life he modeled, and warnings about living a life of bad choices, but he wasn't screaming to people who didn't want to listen. In fact, before he performed a miracle or spoke a message, he: 1) was asked by someone who already believed he could do it, 2) himself asked if the person wanted to be healed before he did it, 3) said anyone who has an ear, let him hear, meaning anyone willing to listen and accept the message, come and hear it.

 

The only people he tended to yell at were the Pharisees - those self-righteous religious men who had all the answers and were so quick to judge.

 

So, yes, we Christians are to be witnesses, but first in the way we love, second in the way we live, and third by sharing to those who wish to hear it. I love what Paul says in Romans about living a life that others envy; not a materially rich life, of course, but one of peacefulness, gentleness, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, joyfulness, patience, self-control and, most of all, love.

what you say is true, however, i don't see a contradiction about initiating the sharing of my faith to what you stated. some people are very open to hear about my faith, but would not necessarily tell me so. i have approached people who did not approach me first, and they were very open to hear about my faith. so i guess i'm saying i don't think we should necessarily have to wait until we are invited, but i do think that if someone doesn't want to hear when we do try to share then yes we should not shove it down others throats, as some say, and move on. i think there is a balance.

[Guest rubilynne4]

In keeping with the thread, I hold with those who say, "yes, you can say whatever you like, and I can disagree with you. Free speech doesn't mean I have to privilege your speech, and esteem it. In fact, your speech will likely affect how I think of you, for better or worse. Welcome to the consequences of your free speech."

:iagree: i don't expect everyone to privelege or esteem my speech just respect my right to have it, as i respect yours. very well said. hmmm, looks like even though people don't agree on everything, even when we have widely diverging views, common ground can still be found. we might not ever find that common ground though, and some might not even care if we do or not, but i propose the more we dialogue the more likely we can find common ground, even if it is on a minor thing. :001_smile:

[Guest rubilynne4]

 

Sharing your faith is when you and I are sitting at my kitchen table over a cup of tea. I'm listening to your thoughts, and you're listening to my thoughts. We're having a discussion.

hmmm this is really becoming a thread about how people define words. i think sharing can be more than what you listed above. if i were to go to your door, and hand you a flyer about my church (i.e. service times, etc), then i would be sharing that information with you. of course, you might not want what i'm trying to share. to me sharing means giving a part of something i have to someone else. for example, i tell my child to "share some of your cookie with your friend." it doesn't necessarily mean the friend is going to give something in return, although it can mean that. and the friend could even say, "no thanks, i don't want any." to which i would respond to my child, "okay, you can eat the whole thing." i definitely wouldn't condone my child shoving the cookie down her friends throat. see what i mean.:D

[Guest rubilynne4]

another thought. or my take on sharing. dialogue is conversation; a back and forth, if you will. monologue is one person talking/others listening (or maybe not :D). sharing one's faith can fall under either a dialogue or monologue depending upon the situation.

[Guest rubilynne4]

wow! now you all have me thinking about the whole racism issue. i really do like this place. it makes me think. isn't that what part of classical education is about? learning to think? you guys (all of you, are great!) :D

[ourjourneys]

:iagree:

wow! now you all have me thinking about the whole racism issue. i really do like this place. it makes me think. isn't that what part of classical education is about? learning to think? you guys (all of you, are great!) :D

[Lovedtodeath]

 

But, like I said, we can feel free to disagree.

Oh wow! I guess I have been pretty sheltered. I have lived in the midwest and in the south and have not experienced any racism against African Americans, quite the opposite.:001_huh: Those examples are atrocious. Perhaps my post should have been worded about my own personal experience.

[Scarlett]

Oh wow! I guess I have been pretty sheltered. I have lived in the midwest and in the south and have not experienced any racism against African Americans, quite the opposite.:001_huh: Those examples are atrocious. Perhaps my post should have been worded about my own personal experience.

 

 

I will have to say that although I hear examples like Amy cited, my own circle of 'people'....:tongue_smilie: isn't like that so I do at times forget how bad it can be around me. Especially now that my stupid XH is out of my life....I don't have to put up with him or his racist FOO....my own FOO and my friends are racists.

[Heather in Neverland]

hmmm this is really becoming a thread about how people define words. i think sharing can be more than what you listed above. if i were to go to your door, and hand you a flyer about my church (i.e. service times, etc), then i would be sharing that information with you. of course, you might not want what i'm trying to share. to me sharing means giving a part of something i have to someone else. for example, i tell my child to "share some of your cookie with your friend." it doesn't necessarily mean the friend is going to give something in return, although it can mean that. and the friend could even say, "no thanks, i don't want any." to which i would respond to my child, "okay, you can eat the whole thing." i definitely wouldn't condone my child shoving the cookie down her friends throat. see what i mean.:D

 

Another cyber high-five for you!

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

being "white trash" has nothing to do with money. This term is used by some to make them feel better about others who are deemed of lower social status.

[Geek]

Well I have eyes and ears and a brain and I'm comfortable observing for myself the presense or lack of a rhino, car or mosquito.

Very well said.

 

I find proselytizing inherently offensive because of the assumptions that are contained within it. The assumptions include: 1) they are right about something that cannot be proven; 2) they know me and my heart; 3) I want to hear what they have to say; 4) I *should* hear what they have to say; 5) I'm too stupid to believe my own eyes when I say there is no rhino; 6) blind faith is inherently a virtue.

[keptwoman]

The president of the US was voted into office. Let's think about that one.... is there a glass ceiling?

Has any other of your presidents been under threat by groups within the US because of the colour of their skin? I've never seen or heard such hateful things towards a leader as I have seen towards your current president. Lots of people did not like George Bush with vehemence, but they weren't plotting to kill him because he was white.

 

So, yes, we Christians are to be witnesses, but first in the way we love, second in the way we live, and third by sharing to those who wish to hear it. I love what Paul says in Romans about living a life that others envy; not a materially rich life, of course, but one of peacefulness, gentleness, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, joyfulness, patience, self-control and, most of all, love.

So well put.

 

Sharing your faith is when you and I are sitting at my kitchen table over a cup of tea. I'm listening to your thoughts, and you're listening to my thoughts. We're having a discussion.

 

Proselytizing is when you come onto my property uninvited, or when you put your unwanted tract under my windshield wiper or stick it into my children's trick or treat bag or try any other sneaky way to get it to me without asking up front if I want it or when you stop my children at a field trip and start preaching to them.

And this too :iagree:

 

Very well said.

 

I find proselytizing inherently offensive because of the assumptions that are contained within it. The assumptions include: 1) they are right about something that cannot be proven; 2) they know me and my heart; 3) I want to hear what they have to say; 4) I *should* hear what they have to say; 5) I'm too stupid to believe my own eyes when I say there is no rhino; 6) blind faith is inherently a virtue.

And again :iagree:

[Charles Wallace]

Once any such type of speech becomes disallowed, other limitations will surely follow as each new group to enter office in a particular city, county, or state will want to insure that speech with which their group does not agree is not disseminated during the time they are in office.

 

I think your concerns, while understandable, are a bit overstated. For example, efforts to limit certain speech as "hate speech" have been routinely overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court. We all have reason to be glad for the ACLU.

[Charles Wallace]

 

The hate speech issue really bothers me. I should be able to say I disagree with something without someone making the leap that I *hate* someone, or a group of people, or whatever. There's a lot I don't like/disagree with. But HATE people over it? Not quite.

 

With all due respect, SolaMichella, you should not. Nor should I. Nor should the person sitting next to you. Just as you have the right (should you choose to) to express your hatred for [insert appropriate person or group], so too do I (or you or anyone) have the right to define their speech as hateful and hate the hater.

 

Should hate speech be outlawed? Well, I need some help here: Unless someone who is far more informed on this subject than I can clear this up, I believe hate speech is legal and it has been supported by the Supreme Court and ACLU when efforts to limit or proscribe certain expressions as "hate speech" have been proposed on, for example, college campuses.

 

Actions that can or do occur because of hate speech are already covered under the law. If I slander you in my hateful speech, this is slander. If I encourage a crowd to target or assault those of [insert group here], that's inciting to riot --among other offenses. Simply saying, "[insert group here] is objectionable in XYZ ways" is legal and protected.

 

So hate away in perfect peace. The only thing I'd say is that you have to deal with the consequences -- as do we all.

[Charles Wallace]

I do see what you are saying, but I think that the article still applies. (not just to people of colour, but of all marginalized groups.)

 

I was just talking to my oldest dd about how when we moved to this neighborhood no less than 3 different people approached us to tell us in hushed voices that "the lady next door is lesbian" as if that would make any difference! I told them the same thing, every time, "oh, that's okay, I'm taken!" and they would look at me with shock and pity as if to say, "poor thing, she doesn't know to be concerned".

 

I seriously doubt that anyone said to the existing neighbors, in hushed tones, "just so ya know, the people moving in are.....a man....and a woman WHO ARE MARRIED (shudder)...and they brought children into that arrangement!"

 

I get it that white married people with kids are the norm and we happen to fit into it, but it makes me wonder about the people who do NOT fit into it and how they feel/are perceived. I just don't live their lives and when I DO experience any feelings of hostility from another group I recognize that it is likely a response to such hatred from people from MY group, not from ME, of course, but from people who look like me and it makes me feel bad for that marginalized group.

 

:grouphug:

 

I got the, "Are you Mexican?" inquiry from a nearsighted neighbor at night after we'd first moved in. She was then free, she felt, to express how glad she was that white people were moving into the neighborhood and that "those people" weren't going to take over the whole thing.

 

What I found most amusing is this: How did she know my spouse was not Mexican? My child? Half my family?

[Lovedtodeath]

Very well said.

 

I find proselytizing inherently offensive because of the assumptions that are contained within it. The assumptions include: 1) they are right about something that cannot be proven; 2) they know me and my heart; 3) I want to hear what they have to say; 4) I *should* hear what they have to say; 5) I'm too stupid to believe my own eyes when I say there is no rhino; 6) blind faith is inherently a virtue.

I have realized that I actually preach for reason other than salvation, so the whole scenario of the rhino wasn't very accurate at all.

 

I don't think any of those things is assumed. When I preach my reasons are 1) the word of God has power for good when someone reads it 2) my God has been maligned.

 

I try to have the person I am witnessing to read a scripture. 1) If they are already Christians then I am sure that they will still benefit from it, I know I do. 2) If they are not then maybe they will benefit from it.

[Charles Wallace]

I find people "witness" best by being silent examples of their own professed ethic. If one is a Christian and acts as Christ does, that is the best witness for that person's faith. If someone calls her/himself a Christian and acts with hatred, intolerance, and ignorance, that also is a "witness" of a very different kind.

 

Luckily (or not, depending on how you'd look at it), I've been warned away from many religious beliefs because of people witnessing about it. I've been persuaded to others not because of tracts, being disturbed in my home, or being confronted on a sidewalk, but by being impressed, awed, and humbled by the example of others' behavior over time and under duress.

[Scarlett]

being "white trash" has nothing to do with money. This term is used by some to make them feel better about others who are deemed of lower social status.

 

Really? I must not understand the phrase....I use it when talking about people who live in filth like animals. I don't even know what lower social status means. I don't operate that way.

[Guest Cindie2dds]

Just some thoughts on this bunny trail:

 

I don't see the gospel as anywhere close to the truck barreling down the road analogy. Jesus had a lot to say about the peace that you would enjoy by living the life he modeled, and warnings about living a life of bad choices, but he wasn't screaming to people who didn't want to listen. In fact, before he performed a miracle or spoke a message, he: 1) was asked by someone who already believed he could do it, 2) himself asked if the person wanted to be healed before he did it, 3) said anyone who has an ear, let him hear, meaning anyone willing to listen and accept the message, come and hear it.

 

The only people he tended to yell at were the Pharisees - those self-righteous religious men who had all the answers and were so quick to judge.

 

So, yes, we Christians are to be witnesses, but first in the way we love, second in the way we live, and third by sharing to those who wish to hear it. I love what Paul says in Romans about living a life that others envy; not a materially rich life, of course, but one of peacefulness, gentleness, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, joyfulness, patience, self-control and, most of all, love.

 

Great thoughts! Thanks for sharing them. "The greatest of these is Love."

 

Sharing your faith is when you and I are sitting at my kitchen table over a cup of tea. I'm listening to your thoughts, and you're listening to my thoughts. We're having a discussion.

 

Proselytizing is when you come onto my property uninvited, or when you put your unwanted tract under my windshield wiper or stick it into my children's trick or treat bag or try any other sneaky way to get it to me without asking up front if I want it or when you stop my children at a field trip and start preaching to them.

 

:iagree:

Seeing the way someone lives their own life, treats others with respect and dignity, truly caring about others and their lives, speaks volumes more than a piece of paper and yelling of Scripture.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Really? I must not understand the phrase....I use it when talking about people who live in filth like animals. I don't even know what lower social status means. I don't operate that way.

 

I'm surprised that someone with the avatar of Scarlett O'Hara doesn't know what lower social status means!

 

 

Although the specific term "white trash" is perhaps not used to mean the same for all or in all areas of the country, I think we can all agree it is derogatory. For an example of money not being the issue, I've heard Brittney Spears referred to as "white trash." Now, think what you will about the gal, but she was worth quite a bit of $$. I've heard the term commonly used to depict a wide variety of behaviors or appearances.

[Guest rubilynne4]

With all due respect, SolaMichella, you should not. Nor should I. Nor should the person sitting next to you. Just as you have the right (should you choose to) to express your hatred for [insert appropriate person or group], so too do I (or you or anyone) have the right to define their speech as hateful and hate the hater.

yes you (or i, or anyone) do have the right to define another's speech as hateful, and yes you (or i, or anyone) has the right to hate, and yes you (or i, or anyone) has the right to hate someone we think hates someone. however, just because you (or i or anyone) has a right doesn't mean we are right (well according to some i guess it does mean just that). i think that we need to define hate. however it seems that's not possible because your definition of hate may be different than mine, and again mine and your definition may be different from the next persons definition. so, in essence it seems to me hate cannot be defined, or maybe it can, but everyone's definition is/can be different/right (at least for them) which would then make our dictionaries useless. i really am not trying to be snarky. but this is why i don't believe truth is subjective either because taken to its logical extreme nothing makes sense, and ultimately if we really believe this way then we have complete chaos, and anarchy. also, if you hate the hater (as you say) and voice this belief, you also become guilty of hate speech. Edited July 4, 2010 by rubilynne4

[Guest rubilynne4]

do you (anyone who wants to reply) saying, "[insert group here] is objectionable in XYZ ways" is the same as saying, "[insert behavior/action here] is objectionable in xyz ways"?

[Rosie_0801]

No, the implication is that a subset of poor white people are trash.

 

I've been called that myself so I'm not sure financial status is necessarily included.

 

being "white trash" has nothing to do with money. This term is used by some to make them feel better about others who are deemed of lower social status.

 

I think this is more like it. "Deemed" being the most important word there.

 

Rosie

[asta]

Has any other of your presidents been under threat by groups within the US because of the colour of their skin? I've never seen or heard such hateful things towards a leader as I have seen towards your current president. Lots of people did not like George Bush with vehemence, but they weren't plotting to kill him because he was white.

 

The American Secret Service did not comment on threats against prior presidents while they were in office, so, frankly, one really doesn't know.

 

(With the exception of JFK, who, it was revealed much later, had received threats for being Catholic)

 

There was a great deal of racial animosity during the last US election cycle towards both candidates.

 

 

a

[Scarlett]

I'm surprised that someone with the avatar of Scarlett O'Hara doesn't know what lower social status means!

 

 

Although the specific term "white trash" is perhaps not used to mean the same for all or in all areas of the country, I think we can all agree it is derogatory. For an example of money not being the issue, I've heard Brittney Spears referred to as "white trash." Now, think what you will about the gal, but she was worth quite a bit of $$. I've heard the term commonly used to depict a wide variety of behaviors or appearances.

 

I don't think it has anything to do with money.

 

Perhaps I should have said I don't abide by the notion of lower social status.

 

And yes white trash is a derogatory term.

[Annabel Lee]

(Luke 8:1; 9:1-6; 10:1-9)

 

Thank you, Carmen, Heather, and others who answered. I've been plodding through Matt. slowly w/ my kids lately. I find it fascinating how I can reread Scripture for the umpteenth time and still glean something new.

[Charles Wallace]

I don't think it has anything to do with money.

 

Perhaps I should have said I don't abide by the notion of lower social status.

 

And yes white trash is a derogatory term.

 

It has to do with money, of course, but not just money. What you're talking about is the difference between money and class. Elvis and Britney Spears, for example, possess (or possessed) a great deal of the former, but little of the latter. Elvis' expensive "jungle room" at Graceland is a good example of this apparent contradiction.

 

Of course, in America, it's not nice to point out that there are very clear differences between social classes and that money is only part of the equation.

 

And for the record, people are not trash.

[annandatje]

Of course, in America, it's not nice to point out that there are very clear differences between social classes and that money is only part of the equation.

 

I find it curious that people in general are reluctant to acknowledge or openly discuss classism in the U.S.