So now can y'all prescribe history?

[Aubrey]

MCT has been awesome for grammar. You guys suggested (insisted) I switch from Saxon to Singapore yrs ago. We love LoF & NOEO.

 

SOTW is going to wrap up for us in the next yr. What should we do next? We've loved SOTW & didn't do as well w/ the original WTM suggestions, although I love those *in theory.* We're not super-projecty, & I'd like to make sure we do timelines this time through.

 

I'm tempted by something lit-based like SL for a change, but I like the organization of going chronologically or at least semi-chron. I like to stop & do unit studies on certain time periods here & there, but I don't like to plan them myself, & if there's too much crafty stuff my kids can't do on their own, gathering weird materials, etc., I get easily frustrated. Because I'm overly ambitious, lol. (The suits I was going to convert to Union/Confed uniforms 3mos ago are still sitting on my sewing machine w/ all of my other half-started projects. Ok, that's not true. They're under the sofa, the bed, etc. because there's no way they'd fit on my sewing machine.) :lol:

 

TOG is my best guess so far, but I have a hard time w/ the library, for whatever that's worth.

 

:bigear:

[M&M]

Sounds like TOG would work for you. On your ambitious weeks you can pick projects, when you want to dig deeper there are resources right there for you, and when things get crazy, you can pick fewer things to do. Since TOG is a unit study every week, you don't have to have all of the resources they list (R level is a little different), we have done just fine with the books we had on hand. I always have some sort of Encyclopedia or Text from the alt resources to fill in the weeks we don't have the main books listed. We have done just fine.

 

BTW, school sounds like fun at your house wish I could visit!!

[Aubrey]

Sounds like TOG would work for you. On your ambitious weeks you can pick projects, when you want to dig deeper there are resources right there for you, and when things get crazy, you can pick fewer things to do. Since TOG is a unit study every week, you don't have to have all of the resources they list (R level is a little different), we have done just fine with the books we had on hand. I always have some sort of Encyclopedia or Text from the alt resources to fill in the weeks we don't have the main books listed. We have done just fine.

 

BTW, school sounds like fun at your house wish I could visit!!

 

Wow, that's probably the nicest hs compliment I've ever received! :D

 

Yeah, I looked at the TOG booklists. I buy books on clearance at 1/2 Price, library booksales, etc. I've got SL & WTM lists pretty well memorized, etc. We've got over 1000 kids' books here, catalogued. So I figured TOG would be a walk in the park for us.

 

We own less than 10% of any of their lists. :001_huh: I couldn't believe it. I suspect, though, since I know the quality of our lit, that we've got books that would work...but then...*groan*...that starts to sound like a lot more *work.* If you're piecing stuff together, then...you're back to doing it on your own, & I'm not sure TOG's price tag is so worth it.

[Jen+4dc]

You might try some of Suzanne Strauss Art's books as spines and then use what you have on hand to flesh it out. I used her "The Story of Ancient China" this year to supplement History Odyssey's coverage of China and we really enjoyed it. There is chapter review questions, discussion questions, project suggestions, and writing topic ideas. This would let you do unit studies on each area, depending on interest level and resources available to you, you could linger in one area as long as you want to....

 

Here's a bunch of her stuff from Amazon. But, several of them were cheaper on from rainbow resource.

 

 

Just one idea....;)

[M&M]

Wow, that's probably the nicest hs compliment I've ever received! :D

 

Yeah, I looked at the TOG booklists. I buy books on clearance at 1/2 Price, library booksales, etc. I've got SL & WTM lists pretty well memorized, etc. We've got over 1000 kids' books here, catalogued. So I figured TOG would be a walk in the park for us.

 

We own less than 10% of any of their lists. :001_huh: I couldn't believe it. I suspect, though, since I know the quality of our lit, that we've got books that would work...but then...*groan*...that starts to sound like a lot more *work.* If you're piecing stuff together, then...you're back to doing it on your own, & I'm not sure TOG's price tag is so worth it.

 

I have a lot of books at home as well, some do not fit into the TOG booklists, but it still works. TOG's value does not rest in the book lists, there is so much there! In the UG and LG stages really one book on George Washington is much the same as another.

 

I started with the Classic, and although it was much harder to use (no D level discussion outlines), you didn't feel like you HAD to use the books on the list. You could see more that it was the topic you were trying to cover not having a certain book. In redesign, there is an alt book list, in classic you could use abc book or xyz book or 123 book. All would cover the topic and you could get on with the discussion.

 

Of course lit is a different story, but that is only an issue if you decide to do the worksheets for the lower levels. You can easily use WTM or CM type narration if you choose to substiute a book or WEM questions for older children (I may actually use all of these methods this year with my children).

 

The greatest value for me is that I can coordinate all of my children ( and I will have children in every level this year) and still stay on top of everything just by reading my teacher's notes.

 

Now if only someone would design a TOG for science :lol:

[SilverMoon]

.

Edited July 12, 2022 by SilverMoon

[Aubrey]

How about MFW?

 

The projects are really simple and they can be skipped if you aren't up to it. Most of the time they can even be run by an older sibling. All have been tested by the author's family to confirm they work!

 

The books in the packages are your necessary spines but books on the book lists are just for extra enrichment and you can use whatever you have on hand.

 

It's all planned out and ready to do but you can condense or expand as you like (the extra books on the book lists are good for this kind of thing)

 

You can photo copy the weekly assignment grid for your older kids so that they see what needs to be done and can get started on their own.

 

There is good balance between reading aloud, map work, projects,crafts, all of it, so that one thing doesn't take over.

 

Everyone does MFW together and then you keep using whatever math and LA works for each kid.

 

The weekly grid is broken into days but if you don't get something done one day just don't check it off. You can always do it later (or drop that thing and just move on)

 

I haven't seen MFW for the older grades, but...for K...it's a little too religious for me. I mean, I'm thrilled with well-written, interesting church history, & I'd love a Christian worldview, but it's not the most important thing in choosing curric for me. And while I tend to be a young earth Creationist, most stuff that's written from that perspective...isn't really what I'd like to teach my kids. I'd prefer to let science speak for itself & discuss as necessary.

 

In the end, I don't want a curric that makes a big deal (either way) out of evolution vs creation, & MFW seems to lean a little heavy that way.

 

*sigh* That sounds way too picky. Let me try again. I like creative, out-of-the-box thinking. I love that SWB didn't think that world history was too much for little kids, & that she approached the subject through narrative writing. I prefer living books to textbooks. Since we focused on hist this time thr, I thought it might be nice to focus on lit the next time, but that's not my main point of concern. I do want something academic as opposed to fluffy, although...I've probably already offended enough boardies that I shouldn't try to explain what I mean by "fluffy history." :o

[Karen in CO]

How about a bit of LCC flavor to your history. You could do Famous Men of.... plus a few great books for the period. And then follow any rabbit trails you want, plus add in some crafty things when you want. For instance, you could do Famous Men of Rome plus a book on Science in Ancient Rome and study the art and architecture of Rome.

 

It would take advantage of the books you have for the additional lit, but give you a loose structure for the history.

[Carol in Cal.]

They are really good, and could take you at least through 6th grade, I think. My inclination would be to start back over with SOTW 1 but add in the old Kingfisher (the white one) for outlining, and using a lot of the books you already have, particularly those called out in TWTM and the AG's, for living books' supplementation. That would be both rigorous and fun. Since you're not that crazy about the projects you could also try Sonlight, but I don't think that that works as well across several ages as SOTW/TWTM does.

 

Another option to look at might be the Steward Ship unit studies. They are particularly good for American history, and multi-age. I felt that I didn't work in American history to the extent that I should have during our sail through SOTW, and so they were really helpful in focussing on aspects of American history for supplementation and for short unit studies. Plus you can try just one and see how you like it before you commit to a whole bunch.

[squirtymomma]

Why not Sonlight?

[Spy Car]

Oh for goodness sakes Aubrey you can't use TOG.

 

I just popped over to see what books this program uses. Oy Vey!

 

For American history the spine is H E Marshall's This Country of Ours. Well TCoO is full (stem to stern) of some of the most contemptible bigotry and racism imaginable. Native Americans are described over and over as blood-thirty and murderous savages, blacks enjoyed their enslavement, Mormons are shifty horse-thieves, and so on. Absolutely vile stuff!

 

On their supplementary list are works like The Courage of Sarah Noble which further deepen negative stereotypes about Native Americans.

 

And they have the kids reading Douglas Wilson who is a well known apologist for slavery.

 

This is not where you want to go.

 

There is a great American history series Matroyshka brought to my attention called The Drama of American History. This is a top-flight series for this age. It is intelligently written, interesting, and exceptionally fair-minded.

 

Use The Drama of American History as your spine for US history.

 

For World History I've heard nothing but wonderful things about K12's two-volume The Human Odyssey. The TOG alternative appears to be Van Loon's The Story of Mankind , which is another really awful piece of work.

 

You've got to be able to do better than Tapestry of Grace.

 

Bill

Edited June 8, 2010 by Spy Car
typo

[lovemykids]

This will be finished soon. (finally) It does use SOTW but it will give you a change of pace nevertheless. Here is the booklist. :)

[lovemykids]

Oh for goodness sakes Aubrey you can't use TOG.

 

I just popped over to see what books this program uses. Oy Vey!

 

For American history the spine is H E Marshall's This Country of Ours. Well TCoO is full (stem to stern) of some of the most contemptible bigotry and racism imaginable. Native Americans are described over and over as blood-thirty and murderous savages, blacks enjoyed their enslavement, Mormons are shifty horse-thieves, and so on. Absolutely vile stuff!

 

On their supplementary list are works like The Courage of Sarah Noble which further deepen negative stereotypes about Native Americans.

 

And they have the kids reading Douglas Wilson who is a well known apologist for slavery.

 

This is not were you want to go.

 

There is a great American history series Matroyshka brought to my attention called The Drama of American History. This is a top-flight series for this age. It is intelligently written, interesting, and exceptionally fair-minded.

 

Use The Drama of American History as your spine for US history.

 

For World History I've heard nothing but wonderful things about K12's two-volume The Human Odyssey. The TOG alternative appears to be Van Loon's The Story of Mankind , which is another really awful piece of work.

 

You've got to be able to do better than Tapestry of Grace.

 

Bill

 

:lol: Oh wow, you make it sound horrible. LOL. Yes, we know some of these old books contain quite a bit of racism- but they do have a few good points.

 

But yes, why go through all of that when we have other choices!? :tongue_smilie:

 

Those books do make for good discussions with the kiddos- hey- instant bigotry lessons. Viola!:D

[Spy Car]

:lol: Oh wow, you make it sound horrible. LOL. Yes, we know some of these old books contain quite a bit of racism- but they do have a few good points.

 

But yes, why go through all of that when we have other choices!? :tongue_smilie:

 

Those books do make for good discussions with the kiddos- hey- instant bigotry lessons. Viola!:D

 

:lol: I suppose if one were looking for "instant bigotry lessons" one could do worse :D

 

Bill

[ElizabethB]

:lol: I suppose if one were looking for "instant bigotry lessons" one could do worse :D

 

Bill

 

We have lived places that resemble that remark, it was kind of a shock, growing up in Seattle.

 

History books are tricky. They tend to go overboard on one side or the other, especially for American History. I like to also read original documents when at all possible, part of the reason to train people up to high reading grade levels early!! (Although many original documents also have strong anti-Catholic and anti-semetic biases.)

 

Many of my favorite phonics authors and developers of special marked fonts from the late 1800's were actively concerned with teaching Native Americans to read--both in English and in specially developed fonts for their own language, and teaching newly freed black people to read--their literacy rate at that time was horribly low (and, unfortunately, is not really that much higher now; minorities, especially blacks, fare far worse under sight word teaching than white students. Another graph I use to motivate my students the first few boring lessons before they realize how much they are learning.) While I don't have enough of a sample size to be significantly significant, and my students are not randomly selected, my black students actually seem to perform better than my white students when given Webster's Speller, my students that have made gains of over 3 grade levels have all been black. My hispanic students with some ESL problems (not evident to a casual observer that they were ESL since they had been speaking English all day long in school since preschool for most and K for a few) also were helped more by Webster than my white students, although their grade level gains were not quite as high as my black students. We're talking around 40 non-randomly selected students, but it is an interesting trend, and it's help up about the same in Little Rock and Los Angeles!

 

Don't worry, if Aubrey and I decide to use TOG, we will be tweaking and adding in all kinds of things. I can't even not tweak my own phonics lessons!

Edited June 8, 2010 by ElizabethB

[M&M]

Oh for goodness sakes Aubrey you can't use TOG.

 

I just popped over to see what books this program uses. Oy Vey!

 

For American history the spine is H E Marshall's This Country of Ours. Well TCoO is full (stem to stern) of some of the most contemptible bigotry and racism imaginable. Native Americans are described over and over as blood-thirty and murderous savages, blacks enjoyed their enslavement, Mormons are shifty horse-thieves, and so on. Absolutely vile stuff!

 

On their supplementary list are works like The Courage of Sarah Noble which further deepen negative stereotypes about Native Americans.

 

And they have the kids reading Douglas Wilson who is a well known apologist for slavery.

 

This is not where you want to go.

 

There is a great American history series Matroyshka brought to my attention called The Drama of American History. This is a top-flight series for this age. It is intelligently written, interesting, and exceptionally fair-minded.

 

Use The Drama of American History as your spine for US history.

 

For World History I've heard nothing but wonderful things about K12's two-volume The Human Odyssey. The TOG alternative appears to be Van Loon's The Story of Mankind , which is another really awful piece of work.

 

You've got to be able to do better than Tapestry of Grace.

 

Bill

 

I am too sick today to discuss this, but as an African American woman with Native American ancestry as well, I find your comments very insulting. Just because a curricula uses certain books, does not mean that it condones bigotry. There are lots of classic books that would not hold up to today's standards, they do represent the views of some at the time. I feel that to educate my children does not mean I will shelter them from the mistakes of the past. By doing so, I would allow them to walk out of my home unprepared.

 

You have no idea how TOG uses its books and what parts of these books are used.

There are hundreds of resources in TOG. I have not used all units, but have not encountered any bigotry in TOG.

 

I am having a hard time not feeling insulted as I suggested TOG.

[Evergreen Academy]

You might like Biblioplan. It arranges history in the 4-year cycles, using SOTW and many other resources. The years I used it, I went through and selected the books I'd be using the most, and purchased quite a few, so I had a Sonlight-like stack of books to begin with and the library to fill in the rest. Biblioplan is arrange topically rather than chronologically, so it lends itself well to unit studies. The book selections are excellent. At this point, we are enjoying MFW, but we did enjoy the three years we used Biblioplan.

Blessings,

Aimee

mom to 6 great kids ages 7-19, schooling grades 1, 3, 3 and 6

[woolybear]

 

Now if only someone would design a TOG for science :lol:

 

 

What a great idea!!

[Another Lynn]

I have to preface this with the "I haven't used this yet...." which means my recommendation means nothing! BUT, I'll mention it since it isn't often recommended here. Have you looked at Diana Waring? It will work for your oldest in a year or two - not sure how it works to bring youngers along with it.

 

Here's a little bit about how it is set up: The year is divided into 9 units, spending 4 weeks on each. Each unit begins with an overview from her via the cds and 1 article in the student book. It is pretty loosey-goosey - with your dc (or you) choosing books (there is a suggested resource list for each unit - but none of the books are scheduled) from her list, from your own list, from your library. There are plenty of research topics for your child to choose from that will result in any number of things - poster? paper? presentation? newspaper article? compose a song? write a poem? puppet show? charades? etc. The other weeks have ideas for fleshing out art, music, architecture, science related to the period. There are also the opportunities for timeline and map work (with "answer keys" in the teacher book - nice time saver for me!) Oh, and there are also discussion questions which I like too.

 

The reason I thought it might be a good fit for you is that you can stay with a time period for 4 weeks. You get a big picture overview and then you and your dc can choose what specific area he/she wants to read more about. There are plenty of ideas about how they can express that research which I like because many times the one project a curricula suggests just doesn't appeal - it's nice to have choices.

 

There is definitely Christian Worldview - possibly even more than MFW - you would have to decide if it was too much for your taste.

[Mommyfaithe]

Oh for goodness sakes Aubrey you can't use TOG.

 

I just popped over to see what books this program uses. Oy Vey!

 

For American history the spine is H E Marshall's This Country of Ours. Well TCoO is full (stem to stern) of some of the most contemptible bigotry and racism imaginable. Native Americans are described over and over as blood-thirty and murderous savages, blacks enjoyed their enslavement, Mormons are shifty horse-thieves, and so on. Absolutely vile stuff!

 

On their supplementary list are works like The Courage of Sarah Noble which further deepen negative stereotypes about Native Americans.

 

And they have the kids reading Douglas Wilson who is a well known apologist for slavery.

 

This is not where you want to go.

 

There is a great American history series Matroyshka brought to my attention called The Drama of American History. This is a top-flight series for this age. It is intelligently written, interesting, and exceptionally fair-minded.

 

Use The Drama of American History as your spine for US history.

 

For World History I've heard nothing but wonderful things about K12's two-volume The Human Odyssey. The TOG alternative appears to be Van Loon's The Story of Mankind , which is another really awful piece of work.

 

You've got to be able to do better than Tapestry of Grace.

 

Bill

 

UGH!!! I hate it when this happens, but I quietly agree with Bill....Hated Story of Mankind and HATED TCOO...and even hated MORE Hx of US by Joy Hakim (Margaret Sanger is NOT a hero...and the Native Americans, while they had their cultural issues were not blood thirsty savages(TCOO)...OY is right.) I HATED BJU's treatment of American History and World History...especially their bias against Catholics and Jews.....OY!!!!! And I am not going to print my impression of D. Wilson.

 

I am a born again Christian with Jewish roots...so that may give you the worldview I am coming from...

 

History is frustrating because it IS BIASED according to the writer's pov. That said, I think TOG is confusing and it frustratd me to no end.

 

I am sticking with WTM rec's. SOTW is fine to go through again using the Logic stage recs, and adding in an encyclopedia to outline. For yourself, you may want to watch some TC DVD's which have been available through my ILL. I find that they are great for me to pop on and do my teacher research even if I just listen while I fold laundry.

 

The AG is full of extra ideas which you can use or skip. The book lists both in the WTM and AG are fantastic. I also use AO as a starting place for Lit suggestions, art study, nature study, music appreciation, shakespeare and Plutarch.

 

I would also suggest listening to SWB's lectures on Middle School writing and literary analysis....FANTASTIC stuff!!!! Freed me from worrying..even after graduating 3 kids who went on to be straight A college students. (OK...DS just got a B- in Calculus...but he is not mathy and that was really GOOD for him.)

 

It is easy to get caught up in the curriculum trap and TOG can be quite enticing...as a matter of fact I have bought and sold it 3 times over the past 5 years...yes it weaves Christian content throughout....but not as I would teach it. Yes, it seems all together...but there is SO MUCH WORK INVOLVED!!!!

 

What I have learned in my own homeschool, is that if I need to spend time watching videos and taking classes and researching, planning and scheduling a curriculum....That it is NOT doing for me what I need and paid to have done for me. If I have to spend weeks understanding a method, maybe that method is complicating things way too much!

 

Re-read the sections in the WTM that apply to the Logic stage.....they are not complicated but are deep and rich. The learning style is easy to accomplish...yet it accomplishes the task....and it does not overwhelm the teacher OR the student.

 

Hope you find what you need...and sorry I rambled on so.....

 

~~Faithe

[Aubrey]

I am too sick today to discuss this, but as an African American woman with Native American ancestry as well, I find your comments very insulting. Just because a curricula uses certain books, does not mean that it condones bigotry. There are lots of classic books that would not hold up to today's standards, they do represent the views of some at the time. I feel that to educate my children does not mean I will shelter them from the mistakes of the past. By doing so, I would allow them to walk out of my home unprepared.

 

You have no idea how TOG uses its books and what parts of these books are used.

There are hundreds of resources in TOG. I have not used all units, but have not encountered any bigotry in TOG.

 

I am having a hard time not feeling insulted as I suggested TOG.

 

Don't be insulted--lots of people here use & love TOG, & we don't know ea other's race or background. Bill's taste on these things runs very strong in the direction it runs, if that makes sense.

 

Otoh, how great to hear from someone who has used the program who would be directly impacted by these issues & to know then that TOG treats the issues fairly even if some of its sources may imply otherwise. Thank you so much for sharing your experience & opinion! :001_smile:

[JudoMom]

MCT has been awesome for grammar. You guys suggested (insisted) I switch from Saxon to Singapore yrs ago. We love LoF & NOEO.

 

SOTW is going to wrap up for us in the next yr. What should we do next? We've loved SOTW & didn't do as well w/ the original WTM suggestions, although I love those *in theory.* We're not super-projecty, & I'd like to make sure we do timelines this time through.

 

I'm tempted by something lit-based like SL for a change, but I like the organization of going chronologically or at least semi-chron. I like to stop & do unit studies on certain time periods here & there, but I don't like to plan them myself, & if there's too much crafty stuff my kids can't do on their own, gathering weird materials, etc., I get easily frustrated. Because I'm overly ambitious, lol. (The suits I was going to convert to Union/Confed uniforms 3mos ago are still sitting on my sewing machine w/ all of my other half-started projects. Ok, that's not true. They're under the sofa, the bed, etc. because there's no way they'd fit on my sewing machine.) :lol:

 

TOG is my best guess so far, but I have a hard time w/ the library, for whatever that's worth.

 

:bigear:

 

What about Biblioplan? It's only scheduled 3 days a week, so it'd be easy to camp and do a unit study on certain time periods. It schedules the WTM recs, and I found it easy to adapt for all my boys' ages. It has timeline figures, map work, and coloring pages, along with literature.

[M&M]

Thanks Aubrey! I have not encountered these books yet, as we will be using Y2 this year. I just don't think that because there are a few books in TOG that may offend, does not mean that there is something wrong with TOG. I have seen these books used in lots of curricula because they do bring something to the table, Ambleside comes to mind.

Many children's books of the past were written this way,(Hillyer, Guerber, even Mary Poppins) I do not defend this, and perhaps I will not use those books. But that does not diminish the value I find in TOG.

 

Any curricula is a tool, and in an imperfect world, we find the best tools we can and put aside what does not work.

 

Hope you find something that works for you!

Edited June 8, 2010 by M&M
more to say

[Aubrey]

UGH!!! I hate it when this happens, but I quietly agree with Bill....Hated Story of Mankind and HATED TCOO...and even hated MORE Hx of US by Joy Hakim (Margaret Sanger is NOT a hero...and the Native Americans, while they had their cultural issues were not blood thirsty savages(TCOO)...OY is right.) I HATED BJU's treatment of American History and World History...especially their bias against Catholics and Jews.....OY!!!!! And I am not going to print my impression of D. Wilson.

 

I am a born again Christian with Jewish roots...so that may give you the worldview I am coming from...

 

History is frustrating because it IS BIASED according to the writer's pov. That said, I think TOG is confusing and it frustratd me to no end.

 

I am sticking with WTM rec's. SOTW is fine to go through again using the Logic stage recs, and adding in an encyclopedia to outline. For yourself, you may want to watch some TC DVD's which have been available through my ILL. I find that they are great for me to pop on and do my teacher research even if I just listen while I fold laundry.

 

The AG is full of extra ideas which you can use or skip. The book lists both in the WTM and AG are fantastic. I also use AO as a starting place for Lit suggestions, art study, nature study, music appreciation, shakespeare and Plutarch.

 

I would also suggest listening to SWB's lectures on Middle School writing and literary analysis....FANTASTIC stuff!!!! Freed me from worrying..even after graduating 3 kids who went on to be straight A college students. (OK...DS just got a B- in Calculus...but he is not mathy and that was really GOOD for him.)

 

It is easy to get caught up in the curriculum trap and TOG can be quite enticing...as a matter of fact I have bought and sold it 3 times over the past 5 years...yes it weaves Christian content throughout....but not as I would teach it. Yes, it seems all together...but there is SO MUCH WORK INVOLVED!!!!

 

What I have learned in my own homeschool, is that if I need to spend time watching videos and taking classes and researching, planning and scheduling a curriculum....That it is NOT doing for me what I need and paid to have done for me. If I have to spend weeks understanding a method, maybe that method is complicating things way too much!

 

Re-read the sections in the WTM that apply to the Logic stage.....they are not complicated but are deep and rich. The learning style is easy to accomplish...yet it accomplishes the task....and it does not overwhelm the teacher OR the student.

 

Hope you find what you need...and sorry I rambled on so.....

 

~~Faithe

 

Very interesting; very helpful, BUT...I don't want to piece something together myself. I've found that w/ curric, we do SO MUCH BETTER. Until last yr, I was following WTM for science, & it was a mess, & I felt guilty all the time. I followed their hist suggestions from the 1st ed the 1st half or so of 1st g, & it, too, was a frustrating disaster.

 

I've loved SOTW, the AG, etc. We sit down, we do it, very straightforward. Dd7 was 3 when we started, & even she enjoyed it then, although she doesn't remember much from that first yr. (She insisted on doing everything w/ us, even narrations, lol.)

 

I may still use SOTW, but I'd kind-of like to move outward. Hmm...if I stuck to SOTW, I could buy more supplementary books, cool timelines, etc. instead of new curric....

 

Couldn't MCT & NOEO get together & write some history for me?:D

[Aubrey]

What about Biblioplan? It's only scheduled 3 days a week, so it'd be easy to camp and do a unit study on certain time periods. It schedules the WTM recs, and I found it easy to adapt for all my boys' ages. It has timeline figures, map work, and coloring pages, along with literature.

 

That's the kind of info I need! How does it compare to SOTW? What makes it really great?

[Aubrey]

You know MFW uses SOTW, right? If it' not right for you then that's no big deal to me I just know that I love it for multiple kids. I appreciate that scripture interpretation is left up to parents but that the biblical history and perspective is in there. I also like that when faced with a choice between a well done secular text and a boring Christian one, they choose the secular text. They do always give you a heads-up when evolution or other possibly controversial topics are going to come up so that you can choose to skip them or discuss them.

 

I'm not trying to be pushy, just wanted you to have the info. It's always tough to transition like this!

 

Oh, that's good to know. Not what I thought. Actually, there's maybe only one book choice in k that I found suspicious. So maybe it's more the family I know who's used it. Huh. Sorry. Didn't mean to be so...judgy about a curric.

[Aubrey]

Why not Sonlight?

 

I want to love SL, but I'm not a good fit. It takes me hours once or twice a yr to decide this. :lol:

 

I like history to be a little more in order than SL. It doesn't *have* to be as much as SOTW (I don't think), but I don't want to spend a yr on Am hist in isolation, & I don't want to spend a yr on Eastern hist in isolation (I don't think...like I said, I keep looking at it).

 

I don't like enough of their lit selections. My dc are sensitive enough that I have to be a little more careful w/ their reading. Now...I'm thinking 5th-8th (for ds; dd is more resilient), so maybe he'd be past this by then.

 

Partly, the stuff that falls into the 5th-8th category for SL, if I remember right, was my least favorite of the program. Oooh...I don't hate it at all. It's very hard to resist wanting to be one of them. I'm just...not, for some reason. Life is so unfair! :lol: That's ok, being a WTM'er & an MCT groupie almost makes up for not being a SL'er. ;)

[Karen in CO]

And Aubrey - We're saving TOG to recommend to you when you have one in the R stage and the other in L and D. At that level, TOG is terrific. I have YR2 Unit 1 sitting in a binder (in page protectors) waiting for my 9yo to be ready for R. :)

[Aubrey]

Thanks Aubrey! I have not encountered these books yet, as we will be using Y2 this year. I just don't think that because there are a few books in TOG that may offend, does not mean that there is something wrong with TOG. I have seen these books used in lots of curricula because they do bring something to the table, Ambleside comes to mind.

Many children's books of the past were written this way,(Hillyer, Guerber, even Mary Poppins) I do not defend this, and perhaps I will not use those books. But that does not diminish the value I find in TOG.

 

Any curricula is a tool, and in an imperfect world, we find the best tools we can and put aside what does not work.

 

Hope you find something that works for you!

 

Thanks again. It's a good thing I've got a yr to think about this, because it's SO hard to decide. Of course, once I do, then I won't want to wait, lol, so maybe I'd better put off looking. ;)

[M&M]

SOTW is also scheduled in TOG, so if you want to still use it (I do for my younger children) you can. You will have more lit and history resources to add to it. BTW, I believe that the books Bill referred to are used in the D and R stages when there is more opportunity for discussion --which is a huge part of TOG in those levels.

 

You really cannot go wrong with any of the suggestions, MFW, Biblioplan, etc. are all really great curricula. It really makes it hard to choose.

 

Good Luck!

Edited June 8, 2010 by M&M

[Aubrey]

And Aubrey - We're saving TOG to recommend to you when you have one in the R stage and the other in L and D. At that level, TOG is terrific. I have YR2 Unit 1 sitting in a binder (in page protectors) waiting for my 9yo to be ready for R. :)

 

Yeah, but wouldn't it be cheaper to start when the oldest is in the middle, so I'm not buying books for all 3 levels at the same time? :001_smile:

 

I'm anticipating that the littles will do hist w/ us when we start whatever we start. Baby will be 3 that first yr, but dd was 3 when we started SOTW. Maybe he'll take a little longer to get interested, but I still don't figure I'll have to wait for his nap, if that makes sense.

[JudoMom]

That's the kind of info I need! How does it compare to SOTW? What makes it really great?

 

I've only used Year 1. SOTW is one of the books it schedules, along with Kingfisher and Usborne. It also has Mystery of History scheduled, it has Bible scheduled in where it fits in history, and it schedules Victor Journey Through the Bible (love this book). There are also writing ideas, readers, and family read-alouds scheduled.

 

It was great for us because it took me out of the planning equation. I could pick up the schedule, look at the clock and the topic, and easily know what to read or assign my boys to read depending on how much time we had and what the topic of the day was.

 

There are no activities, but it would be easy enough to look at the SOTW activity book and do activities from there.

[Karen in CO]

You've got to be able to do better than Tapestry of Grace.

 

Bill

 

 

I don't like all of their or anybody's book selections, but TOG does one thing better than anything other program I have seen. It leads your through deep, throughtful discussings with the highs shcool level student weaving together various sources and asking the kids to think about the implications of related historical events. We'd all like to think we can do that ourselves, but in the real world it takes more time than a homeschool parent has for one subject.

 

Here is an example, one question from each level in Week 8 of the TOG unit I have.

Upper Grammar - Marco Polo wrote a Book about his journey's called The Description of the World. Using either your resource book or online resources, try to discern whether or not some of Marco's descriptive stories actually happened. If you think they were exaggerations, give reasons for why you think so.

 

Dialectic - If the Mongol Empire was the largest land-empire in history, why don't historians spend more time studying it?

 

Rhetoric - After he returned from his travels, marco Polo was captured and jailed in an attempt to defend his city, Venice. Can you connect the skirmmish with the study we have been doing of the political history of the Italian peninsula?

or

Outine and prepare to discuss the ways that the development of towns and guilds affected fuedal and manorial relationships, government structures, and the ordering of society.

 

Each of the R level questions has at least a page of teacher notes so that you can have a cheat sheet for the discussion and guide them intelligently.

 

I'll stop now with TOG. I spent many, many hours researching when my ds was in highschool so that I could have thoughtful discussions with him. I read all of his books plus other backgorund information, but I struggled to stay ahead of him. Lots of people look at TOG as a booklist + . I think its strenght is really in the rest of the program.

[Mommyfaithe]

I am too sick today to discuss this, but as an African American woman with Native American ancestry as well, I find your comments very insulting. Just because a curricula uses certain books, does not mean that it condones bigotry. There are lots of classic books that would not hold up to today's standards, they do represent the views of some at the time. I feel that to educate my children does not mean I will shelter them from the mistakes of the past. By doing so, I would allow them to walk out of my home unprepared.

 

You have no idea how TOG uses its books and what parts of these books are used.

There are hundreds of resources in TOG. I have not used all units, but have not encountered any bigotry in TOG.

 

I am having a hard time not feeling insulted as I suggested TOG.

 

Don't be insulted. I am sure TOG can work for many families. I am sure it has. And I don't think anyone said TOG was full of or perpetuated bigotry. I think TOG is just too complicated to use...

 

There is bias in any textbook or history book that one will read with their kiddoes. It does make good discussion....however, I really dislike the books I mentioned (TCOO because it is just so archaic,) and the others because there was just so much I had to unexplain it made no sense to continue. It just took up way too much time :tongue_smilie:

 

There are going to be curricula that I love and use that others positively hate and would never use....the beauty of homeschooling is we are not forced to use them anyway.

 

I am not into sheltering my kids from the things of the past...that would be unBiblical. They need to learn from the past so that the same errors in judgement and horrors of bigotry do not continue...BUT to saturate them is a text I have tons of issues with is crazy.

 

I love the idea of TOG, and I am sure there are many parents out there who use it profitably, BUT I still think it overcomplicates things and made school a very heavy burden for me to carry out.

 

TOG could still work...as I do not think it is "suggested book" dependant.

 

This will teach me to reply pre-coffee.....

 

arg!

Faithe

[HappyGrace]

[quote name=Karen in CO;1775523TOG does one thing better than anything other program I have seen. It leads your through deep' date=' thoughtful discussings with the highs shcool level student weaving together various sources and asking the kids to think about the implications of related historical events.

 

Yes, this is it in a nutshell. This is what I want and this is why I'm going with TOG; no one does this like TOG. It equips me, as teacher, to knowledgeably lead this type of discussion. I personally would not be able to do it w/out this kind of handholding.

 

BTW, Aubrey, we use a lot of the same curric, and TOG looks like it will be a good fit for us!

Edited June 8, 2010 by HappyGrace

[Mommyfaithe]

Very interesting; very helpful, BUT...I don't want to piece something together myself. I've found that w/ curric, we do SO MUCH BETTER. Until last yr, I was following WTM for science, & it was a mess, & I felt guilty all the time. I followed their hist suggestions from the 1st ed the 1st half or so of 1st g, & it, too, was a frustrating disaster.

 

I've loved SOTW, the AG, etc. We sit down, we do it, very straightforward. Dd7 was 3 when we started, & even she enjoyed it then, although she doesn't remember much from that first yr. (She insisted on doing everything w/ us, even narrations, lol.)

 

I may still use SOTW, but I'd kind-of like to move outward. Hmm...if I stuck to SOTW, I could buy more supplementary books, cool timelines, etc. instead of new curric....

 

Couldn't MCT & NOEO get together & write some history for me?:D

 

 

LOL...This is probably why I keep buying TOG...and probably will try it again after reading this thread!:lol:

 

I hate shooting from the hip...but, for history, we sometimes get so off on bunny trails that TOG frustrated me. I always felt so behind!!!!! One week was never enough time to finish all I had planned.

 

SOTW just lets me do the next thing for however long it takes...which is why we are still in Vol. 3 after 2 years...OY!!!!

 

But it has been a very rich few years. (So far we have used Vol. 1-3 and took 5 years to do it...LOL)

 

Now I really have to check out NOEO and MCT! LOL

 

~~Faithe (who has to GET OFF THIS PUTER and get back to real life...)

[Karen in CO]

Well, if it makes you feel better, SOTW is usally scheduled in as extra history reading so the little can keep up. And..... I would never try to do 4 units in one year. My plan is to move over to TOG when we get back to middle ages again then go at half speed. I don't think I can make YR1 secular enough for me, but YR2 is golden. The D level is good and it would get you familiar with the material and how-to make it work for you. You could also start reading those R level books for yourself as you go along so it will be fresher in your memory. (highschool and college lit classes were a long time ago for me).

[M&M]

Don't be insulted. I am sure TOG can work for many families. I am sure it has. And I don't think anyone said TOG was full of or perpetuated bigotry. I think TOG is just too complicated to use...

 

There is bias in any textbook or history book that one will read with their kiddoes. It does make good discussion....however, I really dislike the books I mentioned (TCOO because it is just so archaic,) and the others because there was just so much I had to unexplain it made no sense to continue. It just took up way too much time :tongue_smilie:

 

There are going to be curricula that I love and use that others positively hate and would never use....the beauty of homeschooling is we are not forced to use them anyway.

 

I am not into sheltering my kids from the things of the past...that would be unBiblical. They need to learn from the past so that the same errors in judgement and horrors of bigotry do not continue...BUT to saturate them is a text I have tons of issues with is crazy.

 

I love the idea of TOG, and I am sure there are many parents out there who use it profitably, BUT I still think it overcomplicates things and made school a very heavy burden for me to carry out.

 

TOG could still work...as I do not think it is "suggested book" dependant.

 

This will teach me to reply pre-coffee.....

 

arg!

Faithe

 

My issue was that Spy Car would dismiss TOG completely due to a few books that are often found in other curricula. I do not think that TOG is for everyone, and I agree that a book that is offensive need not be used unless one chooses to use it to spur discussion. I have never had anyone suggest that TOG should not be used due to bigotry, I was surprised to say the least. I do believe that was what Spy Car was saying, if I misunderstood then I apologize.

 

Yes, there is bias in all history some more subtle than others which is why I choose to use Socratic discussion as a learning tool. As you said, TOG is not suggested book dependent, so two or three books out of hundreds should not be the end all of choosing it.

 

There is no way that TOG would work for everyone, how boring life would be if there was only one choice for curricula or anything for that matter. I would love to do WTM as written, but find it difficult to accomplish with a large family. I can see that TOG may do the same for other people :). You dislike TOG after using and finding that it is not a tool that helps you to teach your children. I completely respect that! I feel the same way about MFW, it just didn't work for us and may folks here love it.

[M&M]

I don't like all of their or anybody's book selections, but TOG does one thing better than anything other program I have seen. It leads your through deep, throughtful discussings with the highs shcool level student weaving together various sources and asking the kids to think about the implications of related historical events. We'd all like to think we can do that ourselves, but in the real world it takes more time than a homeschool parent has for one subject.

 

Here is an example, one question from each level in Week 8 of the TOG unit I have.

Upper Grammar - Marco Polo wrote a Book about his journey's called The Description of the World. Using either your resource book or online resources, try to discern whether or not some of Marco's descriptive stories actually happened. If you think they were exaggerations, give reasons for why you think so.

 

Dialectic - If the Mongol Empire was the largest land-empire in history, why don't historians spend more time studying it?

 

Rhetoric - After he returned from his travels, marco Polo was captured and jailed in an attempt to defend his city, Venice. Can you connect the skirmmish with the study we have been doing of the political history of the Italian peninsula?

or

Outine and prepare to discuss the ways that the development of towns and guilds affected fuedal and manorial relationships, government structures, and the ordering of society.

 

Each of the R level questions has at least a page of teacher notes so that you can have a cheat sheet for the discussion and guide them intelligently.

 

I'll stop now with TOG. I spent many, many hours researching when my ds was in highschool so that I could have thoughtful discussions with him. I read all of his books plus other backgorund information, but I struggled to stay ahead of him. Lots of people look at TOG as a booklist + . I think its strenght is really in the rest of the program.

 

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

Thank you for this post. It gets to the heart of what I was trying to express (it is hard to think with a headache).

[Spy Car]

Bill's taste on these things runs very strong in the direction it runs, if that makes sense.

 

 

It is true. I steadfastly oppose the use of "educational" materials that advance bigotry and ethnic or religious hatred.

 

Some of the materials used in TOG clearly cross a line of human decency. Why my position should seem like anything but the norm is beyond me. There is an elephant in the room when it comes to racism in homeschooling texts. What a shame!

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

I am too sick today to discuss this, but as an African American woman with Native American ancestry as well, I find your comments very insulting. Just because a curricula uses certain books, does not mean that it condones bigotry. There are lots of classic books that would not hold up to today's standards, they do represent the views of some at the time. I feel that to educate my children does not mean I will shelter them from the mistakes of the past. By doing so, I would allow them to walk out of my home unprepared.

 

You have no idea how TOG uses its books and what parts of these books are used.

There are hundreds of resources in TOG. I have not used all units, but have not encountered any bigotry in TOG.

 

I am having a hard time not feeling insulted as I suggested TOG.

 

You are offended because I decry the racism openly expressed in texts used by TOG?

 

Do I need to pull passages from TCoO to make my point? I hope not.

 

There is a vast difference between teaching ones children that there are racists out there in the world, and using history textbooks filled with vile bigotry as ones teaching materials.

 

Is it OK with you how Native Americans African Americans and the issue of slavery are portrayed in This Country of Ours? That does not insult you???

 

I'm sorry, but I think your feelings of insult are misdirected.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

UGH!!! I hate it when this happens, but I quietly agree with Bill....Hated Story of Mankind and HATED TCOO...and even hated MORE Hx of US by Joy Hakim (Margaret Sanger is NOT a hero...and the Native Americans, while they had their cultural issues were not blood thirsty savages(TCOO)...OY is right.) I HATED BJU's treatment of American History and World History...especially their bias against Catholics and Jews.....OY!!!!! And I am not going to print my impression of D. Wilson.

 

Forget siding with *me*, you are siding with what you know in your conscience is right. I applaud your courage, and will say that your "quietness" speaks loudly!

 

Thank you.

 

Bill

[Shelly in the Country]

You are offended because I decry the racism openly expressed in texts used by TOG?

 

Do I need to pull passages from TCoO to make my point? I hope not.

 

There is a vast difference between teaching ones children that there are racists out there in the world, and using history textbooks filled with vile bigotry as ones teaching materials.

 

Is it OK with you how Native Americans African Americans and the issue of slavery are portrayed in This Country of Ours? That does not insult you???

 

Gosh, this is not fair. One can read all manner of books on a topic and not agree with them. The issue at hand would be is TOG racist. One can read antiquated views of various people groups from a text like TCoO and agree with them or disagree with them in the teacher notes. BTW, I have not gotten to TCoO yet, so I don't know what passages you are referring to. I am thankful for the heads up though :001_smile:. But TOG itself is not racist. Here's an example (I hope this falls under "fair use"): In a section in the discussion outline in TOG's Teacher Notes dealing with the relationship between the colonists and the Native Americans:

 

"The Bible tells us that in all conflicts there is sin (see James 4:1-3). Concerning the conflicts between European colonists and Native Americans, many modern writers attribute the bulk of the sin to the Europeans, which may be just. On the other hand, all authors of history bring a bias to their accounts and analyses. Though they must be selective, the facts they choose indicate author bias."

 

This section goes on to describe how the parent can lead a guided discussion with their students detailing both sides of the conflict in King Philip's War and the Pueblo Revolt, recognizing "sins and common grace" on both sides.

 

This sounds pretty even handed to me. I, myself, can be very sensitive to underlying racism in texts and books. There were a few book selections back in my Sonlight days that curled my hair :lol:, and I don't think SL is in anyway a racist curriculum. I think it is a matter of how the book is handled rather than what is read. I would never, ever in a million years use a curriculum that was racist in its foundation. I have seen no hint of racism in TOG. I will add here that I have only looked through Years 1 and 2. TOG is not just a booklist. Books can be subbed in and out. The bulk of the benefit to the program is the discussion.

[Spy Car]

BTW, I have not gotten to TCoO yet, so I don't know what passages you are referring to.

 

It is not as if there is one or two offensive passages, it is the whole book that reeks of bigotry. The text can be found online (it is in the public domain) so any person interested can preview the work for themselves. I find it absolutely shocking that TOG would use this book as an American History spine.

 

Van Loon's world history, if less muscular in its bigotry, is no less offensive. And from what I understand it is also a TOG spine.

 

Both, are from my perspective, morally unacceptable.

 

Bill

[Sophia]

Gosh, this is not fair. One can read all manner of books on a topic and not agree with them. The issue at hand would be is TOG racist. One can read antiquated views of various people groups from a text like TCoO and agree with them or disagree with them in the teacher notes. BTW, I have not gotten to TCoO yet, so I don't know what passages you are referring to. I am thankful for the heads up though :001_smile:. But TOG itself is not racist. Here's an example (I hope this falls under "fair use"): In a section in the discussion outline in TOG's Teacher Notes dealing with the relationship between the colonists and the Native Americans:

 

"The Bible tells us that in all conflicts there is sin (see James 4:1-3). Concerning the conflicts between European colonists and Native Americans, many modern writers attribute the bulk of the sin to the Europeans, which may be just. On the other hand, all authors of history bring a bias to their accounts and analyses. Though they must be selective, the facts they choose indicate author bias."

 

This section goes on to describe how the parent can lead a guided discussion with their students detailing both sides of the conflict in King Philip's War and the Pueblo Revolt, recognizing "sins and common grace" on both sides.

 

This sounds pretty even handed to me. I, myself, can be very sensitive to underlying racism in texts and books. There were a few book selections back in my Sonlight days that curled my hair :lol:, and I don't think SL is in anyway a racist curriculum. I think it is a matter of how the book is handled rather than what is read. I would never, ever in a million years use a curriculum that was racist in its foundation. I have seen no hint of racism in TOG. I will add here that I have only looked through Years 1 and 2. TOG is not just a booklist. Books can be subbed in and out. The bulk of the benefit to the program is the discussion.

 

Thanks for this post. I think you've just convinced me to buy ToG .........AGAIN :svengo:

[lovemykids]

Yes, I was going to say that I haven’t had too much trouble tweaking Ambleside and it also uses some of those “offensive†titles. But generally I would rather not have to bother. ;) I do use those times to point out the racist views and we have had discussions of why that is wrong, what really happened, how we should feel about it, etc. I happen to think that our homeschool books should be updated; it's too bad we don't have an abundance of quality materials...

I go back and forth on TOG all the time. I think it looks great and I know that there are so many features that would be excellent for our homeschool. But at the same time, I see that there would be possibly more aspects that would not work. I can’t even get AO to work for us; so I am stuck with Oak Meadow, SOTW, and SL. And still, I have to tweak everything to death.

Ancient Explorations is really for the younger crowd, but it can be adapted for third and fourth grade, I believe.

Faithe, I will probably consider TOG again and again as well. LOL. Oh well.

I think you will LOVE MCT. Wow, we love it; I just wish it was less expensive.

Back to the daily grind, sigh. :tongue_smilie:Hey, it's gorgeous outside! Have a good one.

 

Best wishes on your choice, Aubrey.

[lisabees]

What about Oak Meadow - combine your older two in a grade that fits. Don't do all projects and add a timeline and extra books.

 

http://www.oakmeadow.com/curriculum/k-8.php

 

I had the worst time choosing history, so I pieced my own together. Very frustrating indeed. :tongue_smilie:

[SnowWhite]

Just to throw it out there:

 

WinterPromise has a great lit based history, with some unit study flavor offered as a buffet (Take what you like when you wish on the projects).

 

It doesn't have a 4 year rotation yet, (the Quest for Modern Times is promised for future release) unless you do two years of World history and then two years of American history for the last half.

[Spy Car]

My issue was that Spy Car would dismiss TOG completely due to a few books that are often found in other curricula. I do not think that TOG is for everyone, and I agree that a book that is offensive need not be used unless one chooses to use it to spur discussion. I have never had anyone suggest that TOG should not be used due to bigotry, I was surprised to say the least. I do believe that was what Spy Car was saying, if I misunderstood then I apologize.

 

 

I'm no authority on TOG, when Aubrey mentioned she was considering it I went to take a look. Right away I see the American History Spine is H E Marshall's This Country of Ours, and the World History text is Van Loon's The Story of Mankind.

 

These are reprehensible works. There is no other way to describe them. Both contain ugly bigotry that can not be edited around. I do not buy the argument that works like these are good for opening "discussion" when used as a main history text. For children teaching texts take on a certain authority no matter how hard one might attempt to teach against the text.

 

These books are ugly. Why bring ugliness into our homes and into our children's worldview when there are decent alternatives?

 

I think the publishers of TOG should be ashamed of themselves for the inclusion of these works in their program. The fact that they are not alone in using them in no way removes or lightens their moral responsibility in their decision making.

 

Is there a complete TOG book list somewhere?

 

Bill

[krisperry]

http://www.pandiapress.com/history_odyssey.htm

 

You can try before you buy

 

 

 

I prefer to use Sonlight secularly - there is a Yahoo group for that.

Edited June 8, 2010 by krisperry