S/O: Nan asked about comparing your high school education with today's

[Jane in NC]

In another thread, Nan wrote:

Do you ever wonder about how your high school education compared with high school educations now? My high school put most of my math class (the high one, most of whom were also in high everything else as well) in ceramics and gave us all at least one study hall a day, so that we would have time to do our homework. Now a days, high schools are trying not to do any study halls (at least Mass is) and yet there are all these complaints about students not learning as much. What happened? Is it a matter of which bits of the population one looks at (more now)? Or is it dumbed down textbooks? Or is it bad teachers? Some of mine were dreadful, so that doesn't seem like it could be it. Or what? Just wondering...

-Nan

[cathmom]

We were required to have 3 years of high school math (this was NJ). I took Algebra 1 in 8th grade, Geometry in 9th, and Algebra 2 in 10th. When it was time to register for 11th, I thought I was done with math. Then I found out that even though we were required to take 3 years of high school math, and I *had* taken 3 years of high school math, taking it in 8th grade didn't count! I was so mad! I took computers instead of another year of math because of this. Of course, I hated programming with a passion, so it might have been better to take more math. I already hated high school and this made me feel like I was being penalized for being smart! If I had known this in advance, I would never have taken Alg 1 in 8th grade.

 

A big difference I notice is that we were required to take Phys Ed every year, and the high schools I am aware of now do not require this.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

:lurk5:

 

I often wonder about this.

 

My high school education prepared me to read and write proficiently. I learned how to understand and appreciate Shakespeare, and I wrote many papers about classical literary works. I got through algebra I, II, and Geometry without remembering much at all. Science was very watered down and pointless. My 9yo knows more about biology than I did at 17. My German class was very good, because the teacher was a good teacher who had lived half his life in Germany and half in the States. My art class was also very enriching.

 

Compared to the neo-classical education I'm trying to give my sons, my own education looks sparse and entirely inadequate in the areas of math, history, and science. I have to study hard every week to prepare to teach my dc the next week.

 

On the other hand, most of my teenager's friends today are functionally illiterate. They do all their math with calculators, haltingly. They can't follow directions, can't listen to adults respectfully in a classroom situation, and they seem to know absolutely nothing of classical literature, world history, or current events.

 

Compared to the education that these young people are receiving, my own education looks pretty darn good.

 

:(

[Michelle in MO]

Some aspects of my own high school education were great; for example, I had an advanced composition and research class as a senior which was far superior to what my oldest did at her private high school this past year. We read more, we wrote more, and the teacher taught us the step-by-step process of writing a research paper: summarizing material, making notecards, the bibliography, etc. This was in the days of typewriters, when footnotes were done by estimating the number of footnotes per page and counting from the bottom up. My science background was so-so (although I did manage to take more science in college than any language major would ever consider). My math teachers were very good, but I didn't pay attention in pre-calculus nearly as well as I should have; thus, I managed to get by with A-minuses and B-pluses without actually learning the material. I think sometimes teachers let things slide if you have reputation as a good student.

 

Comparing my own education to the one my girls are now getting, I would say that, overall, theirs has been better. Although the advanced English course (dual enrollment) which my oldest just completed was not as strong, in my opinion, as what it could have been (btw, dd would concur with this; we did far more grammar, vocabulary, writing, and difficult reading while homeschooling), some things I just cannot compete with. One of the science teachers is second to none; both girls had her for science last year and trust me--they learned more in chemistry and A&P than I did in college; I had a full year of both courses while in college. Also, their math instruction was better than what I could have given them.

 

I think my primary concern with both of them was with the homework load: I did feel at times that there was some unnecessary homework assigned which didn't seem to translate into real learning. I also think my oldest was somewhat driven to compete with the top kids in her class; I worried about her study habits at times, because she kept the most ungodly hours. For her, the effort seemed to have paid off, as she managed to tie for salutatorian.

[8filltheheart]

I went to small county high school in the middle of nowhere in NC. I would say that my high school education was superior to most kids today. I had teachers that really taught. I had teachers that really cared. Even at this school umpteen yrs ago, we had several AP courses to choose from. My senior yr I took 4. My English teacher assigned essays/research papers, etc on a very regular basis (more than 1 paper/week) and we would get them back graded on the following Monday.

 

My classes in high school were so thorough that I thought college was easier than high school, especially my freshman yr.

 

I have attempted to make our homeschool at minimum the equivalent of what my high school education looked like. Unfortunately, this yr especially, it hasn't. (Grading my 10th graders final copies of her writing assignments has been my nemesis all yr long.)

[lionfamily1999]

It seems to me (in VA) as the SOLs get more specific, the kids seem to learn less. I'm leaning towards the idea that standardized tests (outside of math and language) are actually detrimental.

 

Also, I've noticed that kids aren't really given the same level of reponsibility. It's crazy. One the one hand, dd can refuse medical care at school, on the other she isn't allowed to choose her own science project :confused: It seems, imo, that kids are given some huge freedoms (like phones &tc) and they've lost the ones that we had when I was young (like choosing the subject for their reports).

[Guest]

I had a rotten high school education. I read covertly under my desk almost the entire time, everything from Gone With the Wind to Anna Karenina. My friend used to knit under her desk.

 

What I had, though, was time and freedom from endless homework. When my daughter briefly attended a very ritzy private 8th grade last fall, she had so much homework, so much of it way over what she needed to do for understanding, that she couldn't read anything for pleasure, build with Legos, or even stay up past 8 o'clock to watch a DVD. She was just too tired out. Since she came home she's been reading at least four adult-level books a week, from science to fantasy to classics to history.

 

What a handful of my high school teachers did do was recognize I was seriously bored, and three of them simply sent me to the library to read, recommending books here and there. While it wasn't useful in the sense that I had no idea what to DO with those books or how to close read, I did go through a huge swathe of classics over the years, in the library and at home. And I wrote a lot on my own, because I didn't have much to do for school. I didn't educate myself that well, but I did better than my school did.

[Nan in Mass]

There is also the enormous gap between what one used to have to do to be accepted at a highly selective lac and what one has to do today. If high school education is so bad now-a-days, how is it that one has to be a super star to get into college now? Would your children be accepted to the college you went to, with your transcript and extra curricular and test scores? Is this only because there are more applicants now? Or is it something else as well?

 

Except for high level English (which I did eventually take) and the high math classes, my high school was awful. And yet they got students through in a way that our high school now doesn't seem to manage to do.

 

-Nan

[jld]

Dd is doing way more than I ever did in science. She's nearly overtaking me in math. I haven't done much grammar with her, and we certainly did a lot of that in school, diagramming included. She reads better quality books than I did, and really focuses in on her reading, not skipping paragraphs of description like I did. And she's not scared to read in other languages (blush).

 

Some schools seem to be really tough these days (and maybe always have been), and some pretty easy. I went to a public high school in one Midwestern state where we had 9 kids in our English class, and 4 in Alg. II. We moved to another state, and at the supposedly very good Catholic high school there we had "small" classes of 20 kids. I really had a hard time adjusting to that.

 

I think that nowadays, with people only having one or two kids, they can just do so much more to help them with schoolwork, and to do it well. The parents are well-educated, and seek enrichment for their kids. The sky really is the limit for lots of kids today. They are so fortunate, and I hope they realize this.

 

Yes, I do think dd will be able to go to the public college I went to, or the local public one. She should be fine.

 

You know, sometimes I feel really sad thinking back to high school, really anytime before I met dh. He believes so much in studying things because you love them, and working at jobs you love, and he brings that whole love base to his relationship with me and our kids. It's so different from the highly competitive, just trying to survive mindset I had growing up. That is such a digression from the original question, but it just sort of spilled out of my heart!

[Jeannie in NJ]

I graduated high school in 1971 never having taken any math or science classes. Instead I took lots of electives (theatre, newspaper, etc). I went to college later as an adult and majored in Geology. My dh , who is a math whiz, taught me pre-algebra, algebra, etc. In college, I had to take calculus 1 and Calculus 2, along with my first experience since 8 th grade with biology, chemestry and physics. I was the very first person in my family to go to college so I feel like in science and math that my high school did not care or prepare me for college. ! went to high school in Oregon and then my senior year in Texas.

 

However, my senior year in Texas, I did learn to write lots of essays, research reports, lots of reading of novels. I never had any problems with any papers that I had to write in college.

 

My dd will be well prepared in all subjects before she goes to college. She is also a math whiz just her dad.

[Jeannie in NJ]

oh, I also took every history class offered in high school which had electives such as Ancient History, Archeology, antropology, etc. I still love history to this day, probably why I used Sonlight with my dc.

[Carol in Cal.]

There is also the enormous gap between what one used to have to do to be accepted at a highly selective lac and what one has to do today. If high school education is so bad now-a-days, how is it that one has to be a super star to get into college now? Would your children be accepted to the college you went to, with your transcript and extra curricular and test scores? Is this only because there are more applicants now? Or is it something else as well?

 

Except for high level English (which I did eventually take) and the high math classes, my high school was awful. And yet they got students through in a way that our high school now doesn't seem to manage to do.

 

-Nan

 

When I graduated from high school, there were pretty decent jobs that didn't require a college education. College was important but somewhat optional--a 2 year degree was still worth something, although not remotely prestigious. Now there's a feeling that you can't have an adult life without at least a 4 year degree, so that creates a lot more demand for college spots.

 

Also, we are in the middle of the 'echo boom'--the demographic bulge that is the children of the baby boomers going to college. Again, this creates more demand.

 

I think that there is more foreign demand for spots in good American universities as well, but I don't know how dominant that is.

[cathmom]

When I graduated from high school, there were pretty decent jobs that didn't require a college education. College was important but somewhat optional--a 2 year degree was still worth something, although not remotely prestigious. Now there's a feeling that you can't have an adult life without at least a 4 year degree, so that creates a lot more demand for college spots.

 

Also, we are in the middle of the 'echo boom'--the demographic bulge that is the children of the baby boomers going to college. Again, this creates more demand.

 

I think that there is more foreign demand for spots in good American universities as well, but I don't know how dominant that is.

 

Yes, there are more students, but colleges (as far as I know) have not increased the number of admissions, thus creating more competition.

[Cedarmom]

My school had been an open concept school-you determined your own pacing,no grades etc- but that idea failed. So we were sort of a mix. We had grades, however you could get an A grade and only get .50 credit because you hadn't done all the work. If we skipped class nothing happened to us. Then again, by that point in my school career, I was so burnt out or school, that it would have taken a miracleworker to have me be interested.

[LoriM]

We had 7 course periods per day. Most students managed a study hall or light elective as one of those courses. I had a study hall in 10th grade, because I transfered in from a county school where I'd done 9th grade, and thought the big-city high school would be too challenging for me. Besides, I also took both Geometry and Algebra II concurrently in 10th grade (since I had not had the opportunity to take Algebra I in 8th grade, and wanted to take all the maths my high school offered), so I really needed a study hall to do homework. As it turned out, I finished Geometry by the first of October, so I ended up just reading excessively during study hall. But my study hall teacher was the speech teacher at the high school, and she lured me into Speech I and II for my Junior and Senior years, and that was one of the best things I ever added to my math and science heavy courseload.

 

I had an amazing high school education. I just modeled my own dds coursework after mine:

 

9th grade: English I (heavy on grammar and writing timed essays, with a book a month for literature), Algebra I (I went to state competitions in math and science), Physical Science (we had Life/Earth/Physical science in 7/8/9 back in those days), PE, Civics/State History, Study Hall (where I worked in the guidance counselor's office for 45 minutes each day)

 

10th grade: Geometry, Algebra II, Biology, English II (heavy on world lit), World History, Spanish I, Study Hall

 

11th grade: Advanced Algebra/Math Analysis (which was a statistics and number theory course, each was one semester), English III (heavy on American lit), Speech I, AP American History, Chemistry, Student Council (I was elected treasurer of the Student Council, and spent my "study hall" as daily meeting time for homeroom), Spanish II

 

12th grade: Trig/PreCalc, AP English, Speech II, Physics, Typing/College Study Skills (there went that "study hall" again), American Government (one semester, early dismissal last semester of my senior year), Spanish III

 

So, the main features I tried to model were to give my children something "real" to do each year (like my counselor's office filing, or student council planning, or typing and application time in senior year!), and also making sure that their challenging courses were balanced with some lighter options. Also to give them lots of choice--our English courses at the high school were 1 semester of grammar/comp, then two 9wk courses of the student's choice, with a menu to choose from. I took poetry and Shakespeare one year, and creative writing and research-based writing another year. (Seems like 10th graders had no choice--LOL!)

 

In addition to formal coursework in my high school, I was also actively involved in a church choir and regular Bible study, and youth group activities, including mission work. So, I made all that happen for my kids too. :)

 

The number one mistake I made in my high school career, as the FIRST person in my family on either side to attend college, was not taking any community college courses while living at home. I really, really, really needed to benefit from a "bridge" from home to university. Oh, well...I ended up fine. But my kids (and my hubby!) have had the CC track, and it's made them stronger students in college.

 

Lori

[Gwen in VA]

My husband and I went to high school together (same graduating class) and were blessed with a pretty good education. We have modeled our homeschool after our high school experience, with of course lots of tweaks of course.

 

The high school was a public high school in New England that regularly sent 5% or more of its grads to Ivies. We did AP's, SAT2's (except that they were called Achievement tests back then), and we got B's. People with a C one quarter occasionally were accepted to Ivies!!!!!

 

9th grade -- biology, humanities (world lit and world history), algebra 2, and French 3 (yes, French 3). Lots of writing and reading.

 

10th grade -- chemistry, humanities (American history and literature), geometry, French 4

 

11th grade -- AP bio, AP European history, precalculus, British lit, AP French

 

12th grade -- physics, AP calculus, AP Lit, French independent study, music history independent study

 

I think my biggest shock homeschooling was getting used to the fact that everyone gets A's. A B is almost unheard of nowadays among top students. I growl a bit about how a string of A's is meaningless......

[Jane in NC]

After posing the question for Nan from the other thread, I realized that I had to think about my response. There were things about my high school education that were absolutely terrific. Other things not so terrific.

 

The best: math instruction with Dolciani texts. (No one who knows me will be surprised by this!) In my community, everyone took Algebra I in 9th, Geometry in 10th, Algebra II/Trig in 11th if you were college bound. Note: the Dolciani texts for Algebra I and Algebra II/Trig cover all of the material in most modern curricula across Algebra I, Algebra II and Precalculus.

 

Runner up: Latin instruction. I'm not sure what text we used. Admittedly, the class consisted of a small group of nut jobs. We covered three and a half years of texts in two years because we loved Latin. (Still have visions of diagramming Latin sentences at the chalk board.) And I even remembered some of it as a homeschooling parent!

 

Literature: we read one Shakespearean play per year. I remember reading Aeschylus in 9th, Dickens in 10th, and excerpts of the Bhagavad Gita in 11th.

I skipped a year of high school but I ended up in a Shakespeare course for English majors as a college freshman (talked my way into that one) and held my own. In retrospect, I am not sure about my high school English classes. I had some great college English courses which I remember fondly. Maybe my high school English teachers were pounding essay writing into my head and I just don't remember!

 

I finished high school despising history. It had no relevance in my life with its inevitable focus on military and political history.

 

I had a fabulous speech class in high school as well as the opportunity to participate in forensics (speech and one act play competitions). I was on the debate team. We always seemed to have time for extracurriculars or part time jobs. Of course, I probably spent every second or third Saturday at the library doing school work. Without the Internet, one had to visit the library!

 

Another thing that was key: we had freedom. Many of us took the city bus to school. We waited at bus stops, transferred buses, by ourselves. We could leave the building at lunch to sit outside. Upperclassmen who had cars could leave campus for lunch. My best friend took a CC class in 11th and hopped on a city bus to the CC campus in the afternoon. There was no check in/check out system. In general it seems that there was less monitoring--less bean counting if you will. Of course, the school I attended was small so maybe it was simple to account for us. Further, the school administration probably did not worry about being sued! :lol:

 

The school I attended was a private, all girls, college prep school so it is no surprise that almost everyone went on to college.

 

One other thing: I think almost everyone graduated knowing how to type and write a business letter. Come to think of it, the latter is really a critical skill. Think I'll test my son on it before he graduates.

[mcconnellboys]

Many schools do block scheduling now, so the kids complete 8 classes per year. Classes are only 45 minutes, hardly time enough to really DO anything. Teachers do not work after hours grading papers, so there is no feedback for the homework done and many just won't do the homework (and I don't blame them - why do something no one will ever look at?) Textbooks get worse and worse every year. Kids don't/won't/can't read anymore, so they don't read them (much) anyway. Maybe that's a good thing. Given all that, I'm not sure how any learning ever takes place.....

[jld]

Teachers do not work after hours grading papers, so there is no feedback for the homework done and many just won't do the homework (and I don't blame them - why do something no one will ever look at?).....

 

 

Really? Wow.

 

I haven't taught in a long time, but I do remember hearing some colleagues say that speakers at conferences were telling them not to correct students' errors in writing or speaking, as it would inhibit them from trying to write or speak anymore (this was in foreign language). The official advice was just to have students write, write, write, and speak, speak, speak. The improvement would come with practice, they said.

[Laura Corin]

For my high school we were allowed to specialise completely at age 16. I did a good range of subjects until then, but at that point was allowed to drop maths and science and concentrate on English, French and History. Many British schools still do this, but I'm glad that the school that the boys will be attending follows the International Baccalaureate, which insists on a balanced range of subjects, including exercise, research and service.

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

I haven't taught in a long time, but I do remember hearing some colleagues say that speakers at conferences were telling them not to correct students' errors in writing or speaking, as it would inhibit them from trying to write or speak anymore (this was in foreign language). The official advice was just to have students write, write, write, and speak, speak, speak. The improvement would come with practice, they said.

 

This is how true immersion works: my boys were rarely corrected when they made mistakes in spoken Chinese but they heard the language so much in China that the mistakes ironed themselves out. Classroom teaching of a foreign language (unless in an immersion school) does not allocate enough hours for this to be possible: explicit grammar and correction are necessary.

 

Laura

[Renee in NC]

I went to small county high school in the middle of nowhere in NC. I would say that my high school education was superior to most kids today. I had teachers that really taught. I had teachers that really cared. Even at this school umpteen yrs ago, we had several AP courses to choose from. My senior yr I took 4. My English teacher assigned essays/research papers, etc on a very regular basis (more than 1 paper/week) and we would get them back graded on the following Monday.

 

My classes in high school were so thorough that I thought college was easier than high school, especially my freshman yr.

 

I have attempted to make our homeschool at minimum the equivalent of what my high school education looked like. Unfortunately, this yr especially, it hasn't. (Grading my 10th graders final copies of her writing assignments has been my nemesis all yr long.)

 

I went to a small (then rural) high school in central NC as well, but my education was not good. There were no AP classes and the 12th grade "college prep" English was the teacher reading out loud to the students while they filled in worksheets and then the tests were the same worksheets blank. I dropped out in 10th because it was such a waste of time.

 

I didn't think college was difficult, though. It was more difficult than high school, but I *wanted* that!

[creekland]

Comparing my high school to the one I teach in now is like comparing apples to oranges. Mine was great. This one is off the charts low.

 

We had to do homework (though could sometimes get it done in study hall) and research/write our own papers outside of school. We also only had 150 days of each subject as we were on a rotating schedule that allowed us one subject off a day. Yet, our school regularly sent kids on to top schools every year and they did well. The top kids were motivated to learn and had teachers that helped them. We were never coddled.

 

The school I teach at has kids that simply aren't motivated. The teachers might assign hw, but the kids won't do anything that requires thought. They can't write a decent paper and can't do math hardly at all without a calculator (not even 5x6 or 75/3). They might study enough to do a test, but it's only surface studying as they'll forget it soon after. If you delay the test a day you'll get loud protests of how you can't do that as they no longer know the material. Material gets dumbed down so teachers can give A's. Practice tests that look amazingly like the real ones are given out a couple days earlier than tests. "Toolkits" (notes) can often be used too. Any good, motivated kid that truly can and wants to learn is hampered by the dumbing down. Kids go off to colleges, but generally come back after the first semester or first year - either that or they get a rude awakening and learn to buckle down quickly. That said, it's rare when a kid gets accepted to what my school considered "good" schools.

 

I model my homeschooling after my high school and my kids have been doing VERY well.

 

I'm saddened that my youngest has chosen to go to high school next year for 9th grade (we have non-scholarly reasons for letting him), but will try hard to keep his education up by afterschooling. He knows if it's not working he won't be able to stay in high school. He has to have his mind set on a different level than the majority of the students there AND we need to supplement what he's going to learn.

[8filltheheart]

Teachers do not work after hours grading papers, so there is no feedback for the homework done and many just won't do the homework (and I don't blame them - why do something no one will ever look at?)

 

I know this is the case with the schools here.....even the private ones. We were paying a lot of $$ a couple of yrs ago for our ds to attend an all boys high school. The English teacher gave SCANTRON assignments! How does one teach English and only assign multiple choice assignments for the entire school yr? He had ****1**** grade on a paragraph!!

 

I often wish I could thank my high school English teacher. She would tear our papers apart with comments about content and structure. For grammatical/mechanics errors, she would simply write down the "code" from our English Composition Handbook and expect us to look up the code and fix the errors. We had to re-submit our papers for re-grading.

 

I have used the same approach with my kids (except I tell them what type of error they have since I don't have a handbook memorized.....though by now I probably should!!) People may consider my critiques of my kids writing brutal by modern standards, but they are very similar to the criticisms I had from my teachers.

[eumyang]

Teachers do not work after hours grading papers, so there is no feedback for the homework done and many just won't do the homework (and I don't blame them - why do something no one will ever look at?)

IME this is not true. I teach math at a private HS, and I simply cannot grade every single homework assignment I assign. It's physically impossible. I will spot-check every HW, and I will also collect certain assignments, but there's just not enough time in the day. I go home, and if I'm not grading, I will be preparing the next day's lessons, writing emails to parents, writing arrangements to songs (I also direct a very small orchestra at school) and starting next week, I will be attending grad classes so that I can be recertified.

 

This past month I've been getting a lot less sleep on average. There were also interim reports to write, preparations for the spring concert, making up exam review guides, doing notebook checks, and writing up the final exams. Sorry if I sound irritated, but I didn't like reading the above comment at all.

 

 

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Edited May 30, 2010 by eumyang

[mcconnellboys]

My older son just graduated from a private school here that has a good reputation. Now, he writes effortlessly, so I know that he had what others might call "lots" of writing, but I didn't think any of it was really significant - and even his best teachers NEVER graded the written work. How can you improve when no comments are ever made? Oh, they would occasionally do a little checking, and grades would have to be forthcoming by grade card time - but they really were not checking and providing feedback on the work with any sort of regularity at all. There were no papers during the three years he was there that I would characterize as major research papers - and he did have honors and AP courses.....

[Renee in NC]

Many schools do block scheduling now, so the kids complete 8 classes per year. Classes are only 45 minutes, hardly time enough to really DO anything. Teachers do not work after hours grading papers, so there is no feedback for the homework done and many just won't do the homework (and I don't blame them - why do something no one will ever look at?) Textbooks get worse and worse every year. Kids don't/won't/can't read anymore, so they don't read them (much) anyway. Maybe that's a good thing. Given all that, I'm not sure how any learning ever takes place.....

 

Block scheduling where we use to live was 4 classes for 1.5 hours each (different classes each semester.) If they were block scheduled for 45 minutes, school would be over before lunch!

[jld]

Regena, you mentioned that your son writes effortlessly. I'm taking this to mean he is a good writer, despite the lack of feedback from his teachers at the private school. Is this accurate?

 

If it is, then how do you think he became a good writer? Looking back, would you choose to go the private school route again? What would you like to see in a high school English program?

[choirfarm]

To me, it seems the same BUT the gap has widened between honors and regular classes. AS I said in another post, I adored high school. My school taught Latin with a fabulous teacher who filled 5 classes a day and took a trip to Rome every year. She taught me so well! My second teaching job happened when my dh started residency. A man died who taught 3 classes of English and 2 of Latin. I taught the English and they hired a retired Latin teacher (who was hideous) to teach the Latin. She missed a lot and I was able to help the Latin I students all year and the Latin II students until the end of the year even though I hadn't had taken any since high school!!! My AP English course was AWEWOME!!! He was my favorite teacher! I was in a show choir and was chairman, so I helped come up with our performances and spoke when we traveled all over. It was fun and I learned so much. My school normally had 10 or more semi-finalists a year and many more of us who were commended.

 

Now, the bad part. My first school that I attended for 9th and 10th, we had a really sweet class. Every year the teachers would talk about it. We helped each other out. I was in a youth group. To be honest, I didn't even know anyone who drank. I moved to a different part of Texas to this other school and I heard about huge keg parties and the emphasis was on affluence. The competition was cut throat for class rank and no one would help anyone. We never did find a church while I was there and I just kept up with my old friends at my old church and met up with all of them at Baylor when I graduated.

 

One think about the schools is the huge amount of difference in the honors and regular classes. When I taught even 15 years ago, you could not get the regular children to read anything outside of class. Homework just wasn't completed. It was really frustrating. There was a HUGE gap between the two.

 

Christine

[Nan in Mass]

The public high school education my oldest received was about like my public college education. It was so very far above my own high school one. Even so, I would say that they did a horrible job at generally educating the children. The highly motivated ones went off to ivy league or very select colleges. The school put all its efforts into educating these children and lumped all the rest together. It was high-high-high and everybody else. No middle ground. The ones whose parents weren't college educated and weren't headed for college themselves because their families have businesses they would step into were completely ignored. Those students needed small business courses and good strong basic math, English, history, and science, not AP classes. They loved the shop and home ec classes, and were not interested in the fine arts that replaced them (at least the boys). The school was even in the process of scrapping the tech (engineering) classes when my son graduated. They had originally offered an educational organized very much along classical lines but when they began having to match up with Mass. guidelines because of MCAS testing, they had to alter that and no longer have something as cohesive. Drugs and alcohol were rampant. Many of the middlingly academic students either took the high classes, got bad grades, and got so discouraged that they wouldn't even try college, or took the low classes, were bored to death, and refused to go to college and do four more years of such meaninglessness, even though in their families everyone is college-educated and assumes that is the next step. I consider the school broken, despite the great education offered, and we chose not to sent the rest of our children. It is a shame.

-Nan

[Yolanda in Mass]

High school - ugh. I remember thinking in the 10th grade that at least if I were in prison, I had a chance to get out early on good behavior. No chance of that in high school. That's what school in suburban NJ was for me. I kept waiting for school to become interesting, engaging, anything but what it was - an utter and complete waste of time. I was always a "good" student, so the least amount of effort enabled me to pull decent grades. I wish I had been able to home school!

[cathmom]

High school - ugh. I remember thinking in the 10th grade that at least if I were in prison, I had a chance to get out early on good behavior. No chance of that in high school. That's what school in suburban NJ was for me. I kept waiting for school to become interesting, engaging, anything but what it was - an utter and complete waste of time. I was always a "good" student, so the least amount of effort enabled me to pull decent grades. I wish I had been able to home school!

 

I think we went to the same school in suburban NJ! I would sit on the bus in the morning, thinking, "Of all the interesting, exciting places in this world, I am sitting on this bus going to school." However, I did manage to escape early by going to college early.

[Yolanda in Mass]

I think we went to the same school in suburban NJ! I would sit on the bus in the morning, thinking, "Of all the interesting, exciting places in this world, I am sitting on this bus going to school." However, I did manage to escape early by going to college early.

 

Wish I had known I could do that! That would have motivated to do 4 years of high school in 2.

 

Yolanda

[happygrrl]

Low points of my dreadful HS experience:

 

We watched one film in American Lit. Scarlet Letter? No, didn't read that. To Kill a Mockinngbird? Didn't read that either. We watched CHILDREN OF THE CORN. Other than that we did grammar in our small groups and one 5 page paper that was pass /fail.

 

Biology: The instructor, when asked the difference between a heart attack and a stroke, replied "well, a stroke is when the heart blows up". I sent an anonymous letter to the Superintendent asking for help, when I was discovered to be the author I got detention.

 

I did make the National Merit Scholar status. Interestingly enough, I was never told about it. The superintendent later told me that it was not important. It was only years later that I understood what that could have meant for me. I was also awarded a scholarship through the school system as well as had the chance to go to State drama competition. Again, no one told me until a teacher secretly told my parents about it (a year too late to be of any use to me). She and her husband (the coach) were fired that year.

 

I could go on. We had 5 good teachers at that school, all teaching upper classes, which means too many smart kids had dropped out before they had them as teachers. They were barely hanging on, trying to motivate the few kids that cared with no support from parents, school board, or superintendent. Most of them were fired or left for better schools.

 

I think I am still bitter about this! So many people suffered needlessly at the hands of this inept school district!

[Rhonda in TX]

I took 4 years of math, through Calculus (Algebra I in 8th grade). I took 3 years of Honors English. I would have taken 4, but hated the English teacher. If I had to do it over again, I would have taken the class and suffered through the teacher. For science I had Physical Science, Biology, Chemistry, and Physics. We had honors classes, but no AP classes. I didn't know anybody who took AP tests. I did, however, take and pass CLEP tests.

 

I was adequately prepared for college. I got a degree in math with a decent grade point average. My biggest problem with college was that high school was so easy that I never really learned how to study. I'm not sure if that says something about me, or about my high school. :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm amazed at what the local high schools offer. There's some very rigorous class listings. As for whether or not they are truly rigorous, I can't really say.

[Rhonda in TX]

.

[jld]

Happygrrl, I'm so sorry for your experience. I totally understand your bitterness. How awful for you!

 

I hope things have changed in that system, but I suppose that is unlikely. At least your kids are in a much more competent school!:)

[happygrrl]

Happygrrl, I'm so sorry for your experience. I totally understand your bitterness. How awful for you!

 

I hope things have changed in that system, but I suppose that is unlikely. At least your kids are in a much more competent school!:)

 

Awww, thanks! Honestly, I had no idea just how I felt about all that, until I started posting and got all sweaty! :glare: It sure has been a major factor in my choice to school at home. It has been awesome learning all the stuff I never got to learn... Romans! Calculating angles! Cell wall structure! I think I would home school even if I didn't have any kids! :D

[Ester Maria]

I went to a school which loathed the system and manipulated it in every way possible - to the point of camouflaging some school hours into "extracurricular activities" (so we had "obligatory" and "non-obligatory" ones :lol:), organizing content in a different way than they were supposed to, teaching things that were lacking in the official curriculum in some subjects, and alike. It was a sort of "public secret".

 

Overall, I had a great time at school. There wasn't much "cultural diversity" back then, most of us came from very similar backgrounds (educated families, parents in good professions and even in academia, etc.), so as much as we learned formally from the school, we learned informally from each other, spending time together, staying at each other's place, talking to each other's parents, traveling together and so on - in a certain way, my education was more about being in certain circles than learning certain content. They didn't only educate you, they formed you as a person. A class was a unity, we studied together (minimal oscillations when it comes to foreign languages or religion, but there was a unit of a class that studies all subjects together at the same level) and became pretty close to each other.

 

The school was maybe a little bit over the top with academics (it was hard to follow unless you were either very intelligent, either highly motivated, either a bit of both in a good ratio), but there was a good atmosphere in the air. Most of the professors were "normal", though there were some with their own caprices (such as those that made it hard for boys with longer hair to pass their subject :D, or those that were hot-tempered and constantly kicked students out of their classes for just about anything, or those that a had a thing for a neat handwriting and if they "couldn't read" yours they would just cross the entire test or a paper :D, and such stuff). Nowadays those things are unimaginable in a school, but it was actually fun, in the end nobody suffered from such unreasonable behavior, but at least we a had a material to gossip after school in a caffe.

 

Classics were a serious deal, literature was and philosophy was - everything else was negotiable, to an extent, but these three areas were really important. Literature was studied in all foreign languages as well (we read things such as Shakespeare in English or Moliere in French). Everybody hated German, though French was actually taught at the highest level.

History was chronological, geography was basically economics and international relations, politics and alike was discussed nonchalantly as a part of a lot of classes, visits to art galleries and classical music concerts were prerequisites to be graded in arts, math was taught up to probability theory and integrals (those were the last lessons I remember, we didn't have the division by fields as in the American system), science was taught in synchrony (Physics AND Biology-Chemistry), Dante was studied three YEARS (every year one part of the Comedy), we didn't write that much but we discussed a lot, we traveled a lot because seeing every Greek and Roman ruin was a must. We also traveled abroad both officially with school and in our "private arrangements".

 

We used to cut school a lot - as long as it wasn't really excessive, it was tolerated. They also thought it was "an important part of youth". Nobody tried to keep an eye on us 24/7. Even on school trips we were allowed to go out (as in, GO OUT), were given free days to do what we please, etc. They basically treated us as adults.

If somebody complained about the school, though, the response was always the same - nobody is forcing you to be here, don't like it, leave. It was a mantra - "but, you don't have to be here, there are easier schools around".

 

I WISH I could give my daughters the same experience. Unfortunately the times have changed, even such schools are no longer what they used to be, our time requires some different competences and skills, but overall, I'm trying to replicate that experience.

 

The "other side of the coin" was that some professors really didn't know when to shut up and had elitist implications in their speech. Such as, somebody on an oral examination (we had those, in front of the entire class, usually not announced) was told ironically upon not knowing something, "Maybe the book is not for you, maybe you should sign out of school and work in a field". Such remarks, even when said jokingly, were not really correct.

Another bad thing was the COMPLETE lack of political correctness. Jokes about Jews (with half of the class BEING Jews :lol:) and alike. But nobody really took those things to the heart.

[Peela]

I went to two highschools. A top private girls school (for grades 4-10) and a fairly rough, low standard country school (years 11 and 12, after my parents separated- my choice). I was an average student at the private school, and a top student at the country school. Because of what they call "scaling" here, being a top student, even in a poor school, gave me a higher total score than I would have got at the private school. Just a kink in the system.

 

I would say the private school had an excellent standard, and we did Latin and some classics. The public school had a low standard but for the few top students, the teachers would make a lot of extra effort, so I got through well. I would say both ways, though, there were a lot of gaps. I didn't know much about the world after leaving school, even where the Mediteranean was, that sort of thing- even though I did the highest level of Geography!

 

Nowadays....kids seem to have to work harder- a lot harder- and I know a school teacher at a private school- what used to be university work is now being done in highschool. However...I have learned a lot through this teacher- mainly that I am glad my kids are with me and not at school (and his own kids homeschool)! So much is about understanding popular culture, and barely any books need to be read the whole way through school. Basically, I dont like what they are being taught- I prefer the classical content to popular culture content. So, no matter if it is university level , who cares if it isnt really benefitting, enriching their lives? Kids nowadays seem to have to work harder to learn much less important stuff!

 

We are getting anational curriculum in Australia starting next year. I am interested to see how that affects us homeschoolers...and glad that my kids are almost done, and it might not affect them at all. I am hopeful though, that for the sake of the next generation, it will be a vast improvement on the mumbo jumbo that passes for education nowadays.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Although in honors courses, with AP classes available, I didn't take the AP b/c I already knew my knowledge base wasn't strong enough to do well (a lot of bouncing around schools b/c I come from a broken home), nor did I have the desire to work that hard b/c I was also heavily involved in sports and yearbook activities (Ed-in-Chief my Senior Year).

 

My school was generally safe and there were some great teachers, my problem, even as an honor student, was lack of preparation for college. No one really taught us how to study. I don't know if they thought we should already know or if our ability to ace their tests with very little to no studying made them believe we didn't need it, but I was not at all prepared for college, save a fantastic history teacher....he instilled my love for the subject. Thank you, Mr. Artman!

 

Mostly, by my senior year, I spent most of my time in the Journalism room. I kept my grades up, I did my work and since I had so many credits for graduation (I never opted for a study hall until my senior year), I had open slots to "fill" with journalism classes, whereby my teacher just let me work on the yearbook all day! I lived in my own little world senior year. It was awesome! It all started with some encouragement from a 10th grade Comp teacher...she was great and kind!

 

A dual-credit chemistry turned into AP toward the end of the school year b/c the teacher lacked some certification from the local CC...boy was I mad. I would have approached the class differently...you know, like really learned the material instead of just passing tests....

 

Basically, I was in the honors track, so teacher's left me alone and assumed the best of me. I was a descent kid, no drugs or heavy partying but still...not really as great as they thought. Grades will do that, you know, make you appear like something you're not.

 

The graduating class that followed mine started the block teaching, computer instruction, and other experiments of the day. It was sad to watch them b/c it was really all or nothing...if you were in the honors block, you were limited in electives (scheduling constraints), so I watched friends gifted in art no longer pursue their joy so they could stay in an honors chemistry class. On the flip side, friendships were forged b/c these kids spent all their time together.

 

Looking back, there were some loving and wonderful teachers (who did grade papers ;) ), and it was a descent school that provided both extra-curric and academic opportunities. According to my perspective now, safe and fun would be given more stars than academic. I could have really used some deeper math instruction, but my crazy home life really limited my reaching out in school.

 

Compared to the drug, gang, sex infested local high school.....where although there are a lot of advanced classes offered.....the school is a terrible, horrible place, more like survival of the fittest than an education establishment, I'd say my school was better.

 

At the same time, there are more fundamental (funny cuz shouldn't all schools offer the fundamentals?) and magnet schools popping up. There's a school known to have serious drug issues, but also an amazing engineering/robotics program. Seems like drugs are becoming more of the norm...not surprised, though, this generation has grown up on the Ridilin family. So, overall, I'd say my area offers more than I had growing up, but the environment at large is more brutal than mine ever was. And while they offer more academically, I find (via dcs friends) that the kids seem not as strong in the fundamentals. Funny how they can build serious robots, but can't write a business letter or communicate in complete sentences...I am certain we could do both when I was in school.

 

Just the same, we'll be following along as the gap b/t honors and average does grow here considerably. The local CC really pushes for dual enrollment and now offers several choices in early enrollment. We'll be taking advantage of those classes as we not only provide a better, richer, more lab intensive high school/college beginning, but also save a bundle on college.

 

The world is definitely Not the same, and I wouldn't dare say better, I just hope we can work around enough of the bad to provide better for our own.