US money supply plunges at 1930s pace

[asta]

I don't know how many here have read any economic history (though I'm sure some have, as we have such a diverse group), but this concept makes me have an upset stomach.

 

I'm not talking about the politics. I'm talking about the economics. This could be happening under any administration, so I'm going to get into a blame game. I've been *warning* my family and friends, in fact, for YEARS that this was coming - and they all looked at me like I was a lunatic.

 

This is a similar article about what is going on in Europe.

 

We have not seen such economic crises since the early 1900s (eg prior to 1920), and we did not then have the level of globalization and intertwined debt that we currently have.

 

I know that we have people all over the world on this board. What effects are you all seeing where you live? Where I live, my currency has dropped significantly in value, yet prices have remained the same (price inflation). I have noticed that food plants (starters) at the garden centers have been wiped out, but flowers are languishing.

 

Anyone?

 

 

asta

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I just said to somebody the other day that we are experiencing the Great Depression of the new millenium, except the bread lines look different, and they argued with me. I think we are in just as bad an economic spot, if not worse, because of the intertwined-ness of the money, like you mentioned. When people are relocating to find whatever jobs possible, that smacks of a serious depression to me.

[grace'smom]

:lurk5:

[Renee in NC]

I just said to somebody the other day that we are experiencing the Great Depression of the new millenium, except the bread lines look different, and they argued with me. I think we are in just as bad an economic spot, if not worse, because of the intertwined-ness of the money, like you mentioned. When people are relocating to find whatever jobs possible, that smacks of a serious depression to me.

 

The bread lines are hidden because you can apply for them over the internet and swipe a card to get the food.;)

 

Wages have fallen big time (especially at the bottom.) Where my dh works, they have cut the crews to the bare minimum, but expect the same amount of work. I am just thankful he has a job (that is more stable at this point than many others.)

 

I don't think we can spend our way out of this - even if the stimulus works, the payback will be just as bad!

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

I don't know how many here have read any economic history (though I'm sure some have, as we have such a diverse group), but this concept makes me have an upset stomach.

 

I'm not talking about the politics. I'm talking about the economics. This could be happening under any administration, so I'm going to get into a blame game. I've been *warning* my family and friends, in fact, for YEARS that this was coming - and they all looked at me like I was a lunatic.

 

This is a similar article about what is going on in Europe.

 

We have not seen such economic crises since the early 1900s (eg prior to 1920), and we did not then have the level of globalization and intertwined debt that we currently have.

 

I know that we have people all over the world on this board. What effects are you all seeing where you live? Where I live, my currency has dropped significantly in value, yet prices have remained the same (price inflation). I have noticed that food plants (starters) at the garden centers have been wiped out, but flowers are languishing.

 

Anyone?

 

 

asta

 

I don't talk about the world economic situation much, except with family, because we tend to have a viewpoint contrary to the popular one. However, I think about it a lot. I often feel like I'm watching a train wreck about to happen, and it is fascinating in a macabre sort of way.

 

I do see a possible depression/deflation coming because of the contraction of debt in our debt based economic system, in spite of attempts to increase the debt in both the public and private sectors.

 

* I don't think housing has hit bottom yet. There is an obvious glut on the market here and people I know are getting no offers, except to rent, on their homes. This is even after they advertise at a few thousand less than appraisal. My mom in SC is a real estate agent, her business has halved. Her husband is a builder, he is doing remodeling work instead of building new homes.

 

* All the department stores here have extensive clearance racks with up to 70% off.

 

* In the grocery stores, staples are beginning to fall in price, after hitting an all-time high. Other items are not. Eggs were $1.89 a year ago, Monday I was surprised to pay $1.39 for a dozen. Dishwasher detergent, of all things, had, dramatically decreased in price. I'm thinking these might be the cost of petroleum dropping.

 

*In both grocery stores, and department stores, I've actually heard managers lamenting about poor sales. Stock of unusual/luxury items also seems to be reduced in favor of known sellers and more practical items.

 

* The number of empty stores in strip malls is noticeably increasing. We even have a few newly built mall areas with no stores at all.

 

I don't know if I can put the link here, but if you google "laughing while you sink" you can see tongue in cheek video on global economics that I believe was aired in Australia.

 

So, yeah, I believe there is a potential for things to get a lot worse, for many, and for the country as a whole. However, f you have little or no debt, and a job, you could do very well.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Virginia Dawn

[ktog29]

I just watched the movie Demographic Winter. The movie drew some very alarming conclusions...the theory was that b/c populations are falling for a variety of reasons, the economy won't recover. Baby boomers are approaching retirement when their disposable income will drop. There aren't enough people being born to drive the economy (in Europe and to a lesser extent in the US) to recover. My conclusion is that when this is combined with other economic factors, our economy won't ever be the same again. But then, I don't know much about the economy.

 

Scary stuff.

[Gretchen in NJ]

I just said to somebody the other day that we are experiencing the Great Depression of the new millenium, except the bread lines look different, and they argued with me. I think we are in just as bad an economic spot, if not worse, because of the intertwined-ness of the money, like you mentioned. When people are relocating to find whatever jobs possible, that smacks of a serious depression to me.

 

The graphs I saw are eerily similar. It is quite scary.

[TravelingChris]

I think times will be tough for a long time and for a number of workers, particularly older, less educated ones, it will never be the same. We are moving to a different style of economy and what drove our country in past times like manufacturing and farming before that, will not be the large economic engine. Will there still be manufacturing- yes but with a lot less people. Machines are cheaper than humans. So people need to be thinking about jobs that machines can't do. Those jobs tend to be either personal service or jobs that require a high degree of education. There is a reason that the federal government has been pushing No child left behind and all those other education programs. THe policy makers saw the writing on the wall. I think we are going to have a greater divide in our country between those who are skilled in the remaining and new areas and those who are not. I think for many, the good economic times are past and won't come back. It makes me sad but I don't know what to do about it. All I can do is urge younger students to study math, learn to write, and generally get a good education. My thirtieth hs reunion is next year. Some of the jobs they were encouraging students to train for like data entry operator and secretary. One has disappeared and for the second, many, many positions have disappeared. THe deal with secretaries is particularly striking. My dh has been in the AF for 23 years. When he entered, majors had secretaries. Now, even colonels (two ranks up and probably about 10-12 years higher in seniority) often don't have one. THis is in the federal government where the recession hasn't been affected. I think it is worse in the private sector. I read an article recently where the author stated that file clerk jobs have also disappeared. It just worries me that so many don't see this coming.

[asta]

I just watched the movie Demographic Winter. The movie drew some very alarming conclusions...the theory was that b/c populations are falling for a variety of reasons, the economy won't recover. Baby boomers are approaching retirement when their disposable income will drop. There aren't enough people being born to drive the economy (in Europe and to a lesser extent in the US) to recover. My conclusion is that when this is combined with other economic factors, our economy won't ever be the same again. But then, I don't know much about the economy.

 

Scary stuff.

 

Actually, you summed it up rather well. You know more than you think. ;)

 

 

a

[JenC3]

I'm surprised and relieved to see an economic thread here. Economics has evolved in a small hobby for my dh and I and I could post a ridiculously long response, but I think this will help some people. I came across Chris back in '07 before he had even finished the Crash Course.

[MomLovesClassics]

These are scary times. I see a lot of small business going out of business. Big business in our nation are sending jobs overseas, because it is considered industry standard. I am no expert as to why our economy is crashing. It is not just one thing but many things. Times are tough. i am thankful for every day I have a roof over my head and food on the table.

[cjbeach]

My dh is quite frankly obnoxious with his economy predictions and he's been eerily spot-on, with the exception of the Real Estate crash (he had predicted it would be 2 years later but he was making money so may have been personally blind to it). His feelings are that when the stock market crashed people invested in RE coupled with a LOT of ninja loans - no income, no job, no assets. But then came overbuying not enough selling, depreciating assets... RE market fell, banks stopped lending and we're left with overly priced properties.

The fact that the Real Estate market is falling simultaneously with the stock market is freaking him out because historically the transition was always there with the exception of the Great Depression.

No money to lend, no money to borrow. When both are down there is no money to borrow so retail is down. Not a lot of churning in our economy so the GDP is falling.

For people making money now precious metals are becoming important so we're personally looking to invest in silver or gold. And if you do have a stellar credit score and money right now you're capitalizing. So more wealth will be generated by these people in this economy.

He has a lot of big fears re: the economy. I hear them.every.night and they're pretty controversial...

(sick 4yo on my lap, sorry)

Edited May 27, 2010 by cjbeach

[asta]

Not a lot of churning in our economy so the GDP is falling.

 

Worse: Our debt is currently sitting at over 90% of our GDP.

 

Today the US debt broke the $13 trillion level. Considering that the US GDP or the US economy is $14.2 trillion (according to the World Bank), that makes our debt level just over 91% of the GDP. Greece’s debt-to-GDP ratio is currently at 115% (or 133% depending on who you ask – I don’t think even the Greeks know for sure!) and look at the trouble it’s facing!

 

Professor Morici, of the University of Maryland, is critical of excessive government spending. He claims that whenever the debt-to-GDP ratio exceeds 150%, you run the risk of hyperinflation or “the Chinese buying up Wall Streetâ€, a reference to China being the largest foreign lender to the US government. Either way, he claims that we will run the risk of losing our financial standing.

 

On a brighter note, the UK is trailing right behind us with a debt-to-GDP ratio of 78%. But the real leader of pack is Japan, with a whopping 227%! Not to worry, we’re nowhere close to Japanese levels yet!

 

After WWII, our debt stood at 125% of our GDP.

 

 

a

[Mejane]

I agree with Renee that we're in a depression that's being camouflaged by government programs financed by increasing debt.

 

Locally, we have empty storefronts all over town. One town over, they are laying off police and closing the theater that has existed since 1884 because the town has no money. I have many family and friends who have been laid off or lost their businesses. Our house has dropped 25% in value.

 

Don't tell me we're in recovery. :glare:

[Spy Car]

After WWII, our debt stood at 125% of our GDP.

 

And so began one of the largest economic expansions in the history of mankind.

 

Bill

[asta]

And so began one of the largest economic expansions in the history of mankind.

 

Bill

 

Built on...

 

Something that no longer exists in America.

 

We have not just finished a world war and opened up a "pent up demand" for consumer goods. Instead, we have N. Korea firing on S. Korea, and China backing the North. We have war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Greece is imploding. The Euro is just off of parity with the US dollar and all of the major players are threatening to pull out of it.

 

Americans are not clamoring for durable goods (washers, dryers, refrigerators), nor are they at the leading edge of a wave of new home construction; the opposite is true, with a near complete collapse of the real estate sector due to speculation.

 

The military industrial complex is contracting, not expanding. No one knows what the long term effects of this will be, as the original expansion is what brought the US the space program and innumerable scientific advances in the areas of automobile safety, medical research and lifesaving techniques, and computing.

 

Eh - I should go work on dinner.

 

 

a

[teamturner]

What worries me about all this is what happens when taxes go up? And they will go up.

 

Next year the Bush tax cuts run out so by default most people's taxes will go up. Also possibly on the horizon are a Federal Sales tax, internet sales tax, taxes on energy. All these taxes will have a negative effect on spending.

 

I know I'm planning to become the worlds most proficient garage sale shopper if a federal sales tax is ever passed.

 

And get ready for everyone's health care premiums to double or worse. My dh's company has already stated that this will happen. The less money we have left in our pockets after all these costs go up, the less we have for the self-employed people we pay...piano teacher, martial arts teacher, etc. We are already pretty frugal but we may have to seriously cut back next year.

[MaMa2005]

I agree with Renee that we're in a depression that's being camouflaged by government programs financed by increasing debt.

 

Locally, we have empty storefronts all over town. One town over, they are laying off police and closing the theater that has existed since 1884 because the town has no money. I have many family and friends who have been laid off or lost their businesses. Our house has dropped 25% in value.

 

Don't tell me we're in recovery. :glare:

 

I have to agree when I have friends with spouses that are still losing jobs due to companies closing, decreased workforce, etc. GA is in a critical state with its budget and the teachers have taken the brunt of the financial cuts. At one time teaching was one of the few jobs that was recession proof. Not anymore. DH has taken at 38% cut in salary in the past two years and things just keep getting worse.

 

DH is two years from retirement and we aren't even sure he is going to have a job for the last year before retirement. If he doesn't, we are sunk financially (not enough years = no pension). Never in my wildest dreams did I think we would ever be in this situation.:glare:

[Spy Car]

Built on...

 

Something that no longer exists in America.

 

We have not just finished a world war and opened up a "pent up demand" for consumer goods. Instead, we have N. Korea firing on S. Korea, and China backing the North.

 

Are you forgetting the Korean War?

 

The Euro is just off of parity with the US dollar and all of the major players are threatening to pull out of it.

 

No major player is threatening to back out of the Euro. Instead the major players have show their commitment to resolve the Greek crisis with reasonable responses.

 

Americans are not clamoring for durable goods (washers, dryers, refrigerators), nor are they at the leading edge of a wave of new home construction; the opposite is true, with a near complete collapse of the real estate sector due to speculation.

 

For the moment, and due to lack of jobs and lack of capital. That's why the Bush and Obama administrations wisely intervened. The alternative was a death spiral. And as we recover the deferred purchases of heavy goods and homes will created demand

 

The military industrial complex is contracting, not expanding. No one knows what the long term effects of this will be, as the original expansion is what brought the US the space program and innumerable scientific advances in the areas of automobile safety, medical research and lifesaving techniques, and computing.

 

 

It was 50s era President Eisenhower who warned the nation of the role of the military-industrial complex in his farewell address. I don't think we at a risk of a "too small" defense industry. Not hardly.

 

Bill

[Stacy in NJ]

Built on...

 

Something that no longer exists in America.

 

We have not just finished a world war and opened up a "pent up demand" for consumer goods. Instead, we have N. Korea firing on S. Korea, and China backing the North. We have war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Greece is imploding. The Euro is just off of parity with the US dollar and all of the major players are threatening to pull out of it.

 

Americans are not clamoring for durable goods (washers, dryers, refrigerators), nor are they at the leading edge of a wave of new home construction; the opposite is true, with a near complete collapse of the real estate sector due to speculation.

 

The military industrial complex is contracting, not expanding. No one knows what the long term effects of this will be, as the original expansion is what brought the US the space program and innumerable scientific advances in the areas of automobile safety, medical research and lifesaving techniques, and computing.

 

Eh - I should go work on dinner.

 

 

a

 

Additionally, most of the goods Americans consume are manufactured outside of the USA, even those that are intellectual property of US companies (Apple, Intel, Sun, Microsoft). Our trade imbalance is staggering.

[KRG]

What worries me about all this is what happens when taxes go up? And they will go up.

 

 

 

Dh's HR office sent out a notice today that the tax rates have changed and that June 1 paychecks will be less because of the new tax rates.

[FaithManor]

Dh and I have been committed to our little homesteading experiment because of the continued deterioration of the American economy. At some point, we just want to be able to heat our house in the winter and have access to food and water. We believe that in the next five years we will begin to see a huge growth in the number of hungry people in this nation.

 

One of the main things that we consider in this hole mess is the state of agriculture in this country. Corporate farming only accounts for 48% of food production in the U.S. Small farmers, less than 2000 acres, provide 52% of the food we eat. Spurred on by the ethanol energy industry, many farms began growing exclusively corn to sell at high prices to ethanol plants. This drove the price of feed grain for animals to a record high. Yet, the government price controls on dairy products, in particular, have not allowed a milk price raise to farmers in over 10 years - when prices go up, its the bottling companies making the profit, not the farmer. The average dairy farm is losing $18.00 per day per head of cattle on their property - many are struggling to find any other farm income that will offset the loss. Last year, 400 dairy farms in Michigan alone went out of business and sold their heifers for beef. We have only three dairy farms left in our entire county. One dairy owns enough land to raise all of its hay and feed. The other two are organic and must raise their own feed. This nation can not continue to lose farms at the current rate of speed and still feed the people. Don't count on the corporate farmers to buy up fallow land and begin farming it. In the 15 most rural counties of Michigan, farm land is being bought up by wealthy individuals who have no desire to farm and hunters.

 

The federal government is supposed to, by law, stockpile grains, dehydrated fruits and vegetables, and seeds in the event of famine due to weather conditions or war. Yet, when grain prices were high, our national reserves were sold to other countries for profit so our elected talking heads could spend the proceeds. Currently, its estimated that we have, at most, a 60 day supply of food.

 

We have 40 million people on food stamps right now in America and that number is rising. Additionally, there are many countries dependent on some food exports from the U.S. I don't like to think about how many people are going to be suddenly very hungry when the fur hits the fan.

 

The one thing I do know is that we have to feed our family. That's why we have ducks, we are getting chickens, we'll raise another pig this year, Mabel the dairy cow is being boarded at a farm, and our garden will be twice the size it was last year. I just wish I could get my fruit trees to grow faster!

 

Faith

[junepep]

The economy has suffered from a series of near-misses since about '98, however, instead of letting the country naturally fall into a minor depression the Fed instituted a series of stop-gap measures.

 

Let's put it this way, if JP Morgan hadn't bailed out the financial industry, the Great Depression (in this country) might have been much earlier, but not as prolonged or we might have had a series of small depressions as we did through the 1800s (for a quick overview just go here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_States it's "generally" accurate).

 

The long term effects of the federal stopgap measures are unknown, but there are a significant number of economists that think that the increased manipulation in addition to the banking and corporate deregulation during the 90s and '00s (which resulted in predatory brokerage and lending practices as well as 'novel' accounting practices) has set us up for a fall much longer (wider,deeper) than that of the Great Depression.

 

Whether we've finally hit the last straw that will force the crazy economic policies of the past decade or two to spiral us into a depression, or whether we can stave it off until the next big crisis, we're setting ourselves up for a harder, longer fall each time we delay the inevitable. Ultimately, we might be in better shape than anyone is predicting because there is a larger security blanket for the unemployed now than then, but how can you tell that it's not that very security blanket that will critically destabilize the economy by finally convincing other countries to fully unpeg their currencies to ours (and to stop using our currency as the 'standard')??

 

It's extraordinarily hard to say what a depression would look like today or whether it could ever compare to the events of the 30s. Ultimately, no one knows what will happen, we're in completely uncharted territory. The structural procedures put in place to protect us from another 30s type disaster were stripped away over the past 20+ years [repeats self ad nauseum] LOL this is why I hate thinking about all of this. It is completely circular!! Do I believe that we're heading towards a much worse economic crisis -- YES! Do I have any real clue about when / where / how? Not really, and as evidenced above I'm not even sure that without the total destruction of our capital markets and the loss of the dollar as the standard of trade that we *could* wind up in as dire straights as during the 30s. I don't think of myself as an alarmist, but this country has made a series of poor economic decisions -- from our own poor accounting / credit purchases & increasingly lackluster educational performances to the highest branches of government (the furthering of the income gap and the slow disappearance of the middle class has only exacerbated the problem).

 

To Bill's point I'd merely say that if it weren't for the fact that we were left with the opportunity of supplying 3/4 of the world's industrial material after WWII we never would have seen such a prolonged period of prosperity. The US was uniquely positioned to take advantage of the post-war markets -- tempering that with infusions of cash to get businesses and governments in Europe spending (and working) again --- but in our businesses this time, not theirs. These two measures along with a military force which was maintained in the post-war period kept our economy roaring. We are in completely different circumstances now.

 

To the OP -- I'd agree, this is a problem over multiple administrations -- however, when history looks back at it you'll see a response much like the one to Hoover -- whichever party is left "holding the bag" is going to be in for a world of hurting.

Edited May 27, 2010 by junepep
poor grammatical choices / lack of agreement

[CLHCO]

I've been *warning* my family and friends, in fact, for YEARS that this was coming - and they all looked at me like I was a lunatic.

 

 

Me too, but I still have so many family members who swear Keynesian economics means it will all be fine. I don't know enough about economic theories to debate them, only the average wikipedia info, but I think it's foolish to put your faith in an economic theory when you can look up and see something different, and there are plenty of other economic theories out there matching what I'm seeing.

[Mejane]

I think it's foolish to put your faith in an economic theory when you can look up and see something different, and there are plenty of other economic theories out there matching what I'm seeing.

 

Yes. It's sort of like when the weatherman is calling for sun, and you're looking out the window at the deluge. ;)

[MomLovesClassics]

One fear I have is power bill doubling or trippling.

[Kimberly in IN]

Somewhat OT, has anyone seen Fear the Boom & Bust, a Hayek vs. Keynes rap anthem on youtube? Maybe it was already discussed. Hope it isn't considered too political.

 

 

 

Sidenote: Russ Roberts was my micro econ prof for MBA at Wash U in St. Louis. Liked how video gives basic differences b/t the 2.

[JenC3]

And so began one of the largest economic expansions in the history of mankind.

 

Bill

 

But Bill we were also the world's largest oil exporter;)

 

Oh and since the a large portion of the world was decimated by WWII, there was a market for all of our production. Oh and we actually made things in our country;)

[cathmom]

Wondering where the bread lines are?

 

Here's an article I came across today: http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/7673531/

 

Hundreds line up for food

[jld]

If you want to feel better about all of this, read Paul Krugman's blog. He isn't as pessimistic as the rest of us are.:)

[hornblower]

The Economist is showing signs of worry & when they worry, I worry too.

 

Fear returns

 

Governments were the solution to the economic crisis. Now they are the problem

 

 

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=16216363&source=hptextfeature

 

 

They do, at one point, helpfully say "don't panic" (although there is no friendly big button to push :tongue_smilie:)

[Peela]

I have noticed that the price of food has gone up, as well as the price of all utilities. We are having yet another housing boom, and it is now pretty unaffordable for many to buy a home, even on a good income.

And, many poeple are starting up their own vegie gardens, who otherwise wouldnt bother.

 

Ultimately, I see it as a good thing. The present economic systems across the world, dominated by the U.S., always were unsustainable in the long run. Propping up an unsustainable system is always going to fail eventually. We are postponing the inevitable. Its going to be a rough ride for many (and easier here in Australia than many other places)...and I hope we come out the other end with a better world for our kids and their kids.

[Stacy in NJ]

I have noticed that the price of food has gone up, as well as the price of all utilities. We are having yet another housing boom, and it is now pretty unaffordable for many to buy a home, even on a good income.

And, many poeple are starting up their own vegie gardens, who otherwise wouldnt bother.

 

Ultimately, I see it as a good thing. The present economic systems across the world, dominated by the U.S., always were unsustainable in the long run. Propping up an unsustainable system is always going to fail eventually. We are postponing the inevitable. Its going to be a rough ride for many (and easier here in Australia than many other places)...and I hope we come out the other end with a better world for our kids and their kids.

 

I'm afraid for many people, Peela, it won't be a better world. The USA, and Europe as well (Australia, too), donate tremendous sums of money to charitable causes around the world: African AIDS prevention and treatment programs, natural disaster relief programs (tsunami and earthquake relief). As our economies faulter, we're likely to have fewer dollars available for these programs. While the Chinese are growing in wealth, they DON'T fund these programs, and, in fact, are currently exploiting via slave labor locals in oil rich African nations.

 

Unfortunately, the people likely to suffer the most are the most vulnerable. While there are bad things about our global economic system, it has created tremendous wealth for hundreds of millions of people world-wide, not just in Western nations, but in Aisa and South America as well.

[Nibo]

One thing that worries me is a normal families ability to produce their own food. We live in a standard subdivision, but happen to be lucky enough to have the third biggest lot at just under 1/2 an acre and back up to a huge greenbelt. So we have space. I garden a little bit of that space, it brings in enough for fresh food for about 9 months out of the year. We plan on expanding our garden and jump on the canning band wagon.

 

BUT

 

Our HOA has limits on how much of our yard can be a garden, they only allow 10% of the lot. Truly, it is ridiculous! Especially when I Google Earth our neighborhood and notice how tiny some yards are.

 

I would happily raise chickens if I could. I would happily raise a goat for milk if I could. But our HOA doesn't allow it.

 

So at what point do you guys think it will get bad enough that people will need to plant their own "victory gardens" and then the darn HOA's step in and say no and slap them with a fine???

 

Can you tell that I don't like our HOA? Blood sucking fiends!

[grace'smom]

One thing that worries me is a normal families ability to produce their own food. We live in a standard subdivision, but happen to be lucky enough to have the third biggest lot at just under 1/2 an acre and back up to a huge greenbelt. So we have space. I garden a little bit of that space, it brings in enough for fresh food for about 9 months out of the year. We plan on expanding our garden and jump on the canning band wagon.

 

BUT

 

Our HOA has limits on how much of our yard can be a garden, they only allow 10% of the lot. Truly, it is ridiculous! Especially when I Google Earth our neighborhood and notice how tiny some yards are.

 

I would happily raise chickens if I could. I would happily raise a goat for milk if I could. But our HOA doesn't allow it.

 

So at what point do you guys think it will get bad enough that people will need to plant their own "victory gardens" and then the darn HOA's step in and say no and slap them with a fine???

 

Can you tell that I don't like our HOA? Blood sucking fiends!

 

Maybe you can try to petition the HOA to change those rules. In our neighborhood if you can get 10% to agree you can change the rule or do a special "grandfather" thing where you just have to agree to change it back when you move...

[cjbeach]

Dh and I have been committed to our little homesteading experiment because of the continued deterioration of the American economy. At some point, we just want to be able to heat our house in the winter and have access to food and water. We believe that in the next five years we will begin to see a huge growth in the number of hungry people in this nation.

 

Faith

I think the increasing popularity in homesteading is the best thing that has come out of the current economy. I think we all need to learn to be self-sufficient...again.

[FaithManor]

Well, I think that if the economy crashed and it was garden or go with out, the HOA would probably crash with the system.

 

But, there is a really neat book, you'll have to google it because I can't remember the title, about "edible landscaping". Instead of having the traditional looking square plot garden, you have flowers and vegetables all growing together in what appear to be "landscaped" flower beds. It also recommends getting apple and cherry trees because they look beautiful when blossoming, you just have to be vigilent about picking the fruit so you don't get in trouble with the HOA for having a lot decaying fruit on the ground. Blueberry bushes are also pretty plants and can be used as a landscape shrub.

 

We lived for one year in a HOA neighborhood. We put up a little privacy fencing on the sides and planted beautiful but BIG flowering bushes along the front so that our nosy neighbors really couldn't see what we were doing in our back yard without trespassing. We put up NO TRESSPASSING signs which made us look rather unfriendly but they couldn't legally stop us from doing this. We had a nice garden in the back plus blueberrries and raspberries and safe have for dd to play in without nosy nellies!

 

Faith

[asta]

One thing that worries me is a normal families ability to produce their own food. We live in a standard subdivision, but happen to be lucky enough to have the third biggest lot at just under 1/2 an acre and back up to a huge greenbelt. So we have space. I garden a little bit of that space, it brings in enough for fresh food for about 9 months out of the year. We plan on expanding our garden and jump on the canning band wagon.

 

BUT

 

Our HOA has limits on how much of our yard can be a garden, they only allow 10% of the lot. Truly, it is ridiculous! Especially when I Google Earth our neighborhood and notice how tiny some yards are.

 

I would happily raise chickens if I could. I would happily raise a goat for milk if I could. But our HOA doesn't allow it.

 

So at what point do you guys think it will get bad enough that people will need to plant their own "victory gardens" and then the darn HOA's step in and say no and slap them with a fine???

 

Can you tell that I don't like our HOA? Blood sucking fiends!

 

I think we are approaching a point where HOAs will become irrelevant.

 

 

a

[FaithManor]

Oh, also check your state laws. Michigan has a "right to farm law". It was an amendment to the constitution a fair number of years back that farmers got pushed through when there was a lot of development encroaching the borders of their farms and the ritzy neighbors began complaining to authorities about "the smell, the look, oh those pesky crops - they aren't very pretty", blah, blah, blah.

 

We have had two different individuals in the Northern Detroit Suburbs use this law to successfully fight HOA's that were preventing them from gardening and having chickens. Both the lower and higher courts upheld their rights. I love it! There's a guy in Rochester Hills with a half million dollar house, in a neighborhood of half million dollar houses, that has eight chickens and a big vegetable garden!

 

Also, our zoning board placed a 4-H exemption within our township to prevent neighbors from keeping kids from raising 4-H animals or crops just because they were in town or lived on limited acreage. The law just states that the 4-h'er must be taking good care of the animal, reasonably controlling the manure odor, and the animal must have adequate feed and water. We have ducks in town and no smell. Dh made portable runs and we move them to fresh grass every three or four days. It takes care of that issue. Chickens can be done the same way. So, if you have a 4-H exemption within your township, your HOA should not be able to trump that legally. Have the kids join, get a few chickens (be kind- don't keep a rooster), and then keep them in a portable run so that you can move it around and not have a growing chicken manure pile.

 

Faith

[Peela]

I'm afraid for many people, Peela, it won't be a better world. The USA, and Europe as well (Australia, too), donate tremendous sums of money to charitable causes around the world: African AIDS prevention and treatment programs, natural disaster relief programs (tsunami and earthquake relief). As our economies faulter, we're likely to have fewer dollars available for these programs. While the Chinese are growing in wealth, they DON'T fund these programs, and, in fact, are currently exploiting via slave labor locals in oil rich African nations.

 

Unfortunately, the people likely to suffer the most are the most vulnerable. While there are bad things about our global economic system, it has created tremendous wealth for hundreds of millions of people world-wide, not just in Western nations, but in Aisa and South America as well.

 

 

Yes, I understand, and it will be difficult. However, the system that exploits these countries and their environments at the same time as donating to them...is also part of the system that is collapsing.

[cathmom]

Other than combing though every statute.. How would I find out if these laws exist for our area? We would love chickens but our HOA says "no farm animals or livestock".

 

Say, "Have you met our pet chicken?"

[Melissa in FL]

Other than combing though every statute.. How would I find out if these laws exist for our area? We would love chickens but our HOA says "no farm animals or livestock".

 

My sister was able to have chickens with an HOA by becoming involved in it. My BIL is now President of the HOA. There whole cul-da-sac basically got involved and took over the whole thing. The rules are much less oppressive now and my sister has 8 chickens in her backyard!

Melissa

[Stacy in NJ]

Yes, I understand, and it will be difficult. However, the system that exploits these countries and their environments at the same time as donating to them...is also part of the system that is collapsing.

 

Soo, you think that if our current system collapses exploitation will cease? I think that's incredibly naive. The exploiters will be a lot less accountable and responsible.

[hsmom]

I know it is hitting here. For the longest time I kept hearing about how all these jobs are going away and such. Well we have been sheltered by the Energy industry here. Well now we are feeling it here. Many businesses are out of business and have closed their doors. Too many people around me do not have jobs and cannot find them. One family near us has to travel over 2 states to get a job. It is hard here now. The bad thing is we do not have little luxuries like most places. Towns here are far and few between. So, when local businesses close down it hurts us all. The local clothing shop closed down last month. Now the closet one to us is over an hour away.

 

Most of the building here has stopped. Which really hurts since that was a lot of peoples jobs, the drilling rigs are slowing way down on hiring which is another big blow. The thing that is hurting us bad here also is prices went way up yet there is not enough money to buy these things. I went to the store the other day it cost me $70 to buy laundry soap, dog food, hamburger, some veggies and milk. That is it. I had to pay $25 for a bag of cheap dog food!

 

I am thankful we have a job (not sure how stable it is right now), a home (with cheap rent), and food on our table. We just happen to be some of the few who never had credit cards or large loans. The only loan is very small. Things like this are really coming to show their full benefits.

 

I do agree times worse than they are letting on.

[teamturner]

One thing that worries me is a normal families ability to produce their own food. We live in a standard subdivision, but happen to be lucky enough to have the third biggest lot at just under 1/2 an acre and back up to a huge greenbelt. So we have space. I garden a little bit of that space, it brings in enough for fresh food for about 9 months out of the year. We plan on expanding our garden and jump on the canning band wagon.

 

BUT

 

Our HOA has limits on how much of our yard can be a garden, they only allow 10% of the lot. Truly, it is ridiculous! Especially when I Google Earth our neighborhood and notice how tiny some yards are.

 

I would happily raise chickens if I could. I would happily raise a goat for milk if I could. But our HOA doesn't allow it.

 

So at what point do you guys think it will get bad enough that people will need to plant their own "victory gardens" and then the darn HOA's step in and say no and slap them with a fine???

 

Can you tell that I don't like our HOA? Blood sucking fiends!

 

Unfortunately, where I live most people only have .20 of an acre. How in the world could I possibly grow what I need a family of 6? I imagine if it got to that, what I grew would be taken by starving people anyways. If getting food becomes a huge problem in our country then I fear violence will insue. I usually try not to consider the possibility.

[cjbeach]

I think we are approaching a point where HOAs will become irrelevant.

 

 

a

ITA. We left our former home in a horrible HOA that was comprised of an elderly population in an older gated community. Gosh it was horrible. I hated it. No laundry lines, no solar panels, couldn't even have one of those sign magnets on your cars, no commercial vehicles after 6pm, no commercial vehicles (incl moving trucks) after 4pm on Saturday - not allowed at all on Sunday.

It was all so... dated? It was just an entirely different generation... an older generation full of B&W thinkers. Just goofy and obnoxious.

"Worry about your lawn and pay us $200 dollars a year to allow you have cable AND your 400 dollar a year HOA fee but nope.. no solar panels, laundry lines or anything unsightly. ((eyeroll)) :ack2:

 

i've been reading this great blog about urban homesteading. One mom is a homeschooler as well! http://littlehouseinthesuburbs.com/

[CLHCO]

Unfortunately, where I live most people only have .20 of an acre. How in the world could I possibly grow what I need a family of 6? I imagine if it got to that, what I grew would be taken by starving people anyways. If getting food becomes a huge problem in our country then I fear violence will insue. I usually try not to consider the possibility.

 

There is a fun book called "Back Yard Homesteading". It's not for your average very small yard, but it still is kind of fun to look at possibilities. Really, some of this can be fun if you get creative.

 

Obviously, we are dealing with some real issues that are not "fun" if things get bad, but just as martial arts can be fun to learn, it also can have real life application. Try to look at it that way.

 

I have a brown thumb. I have gardened, poorly, but I'm not going to stress it this year. I have what I need if I *must* plant one for a future year, with some stored seeds and I still have the equipment and minimal know-how, but I also decided I can't stop everything in my life to try to color my brown thumb green, so I'm not going to bother this year. I do have a modest storage of some cans, simply because I shop in bulk and I'm frugal, so I'd theoretically have time to grow something if it got that bad before I starved. :D Maybe. Depending on when it got that bad and if I wasn't running from hooligans.

 

As for violence... yeah, I don't let my mind go there too far either, outside of basic thoughtful ideas on protection and keeping my eyes open. Fear paralyzes, and it's better to be productive.

[teamturner]

Thanks for your suggestions. I also have some seeds stored for in case. I used to have a few months worth of cans, but we have eaten through them. I guess it is prudent to always keep canned goods around for emergencies. Time to replenish the our stash.

 

Luckily for me, my dad lives nearby and he grew up with gardens and kept one sporadically when I was growing up. He is a good resource when it comes to gardening.

 

We'd like to dabble in more than just perrinials in our landscaping, but we first need to figure out how to keep the rabbits out. The city ran out all the coyotes from our city and now we are overrun with rabbits.

[Renee in NC]

Unfortunately, where I live most people only have .20 of an acre. How in the world could I possibly grow what I need a family of 6? I imagine if it got to that, what I grew would be taken by starving people anyways. If getting food becomes a huge problem in our country then I fear violence will insue. I usually try not to consider the possibility.

 

We have actually had this problem here. We have two plots in a community garden and someone is stealing our produce before we can get there to get it. VERY frustrating! We're giving up on that and preparing a place here at our house for the garden (equipment is being rented to fix the septic and my Dad will clear the garden area at the same time.)

[Gretchen in NJ]

Oh, also check your state laws. Michigan has a "right to farm law". It was an amendment to the constitution a fair number of years back that farmers got pushed through when there was a lot of development encroaching the borders of their farms and the ritzy neighbors began complaining to authorities about "the smell, the look, oh those pesky crops - they aren't very pretty", blah, blah, blah.

 

We have had two different individuals in the Northern Detroit Suburbs use this law to successfully fight HOA's that were preventing them from gardening and having chickens. Both the lower and higher courts upheld their rights. I love it! There's a guy in Rochester Hills with a half million dollar house, in a neighborhood of half million dollar houses, that has eight chickens and a big vegetable garden!

 

Also, our zoning board placed a 4-H exemption within our township to prevent neighbors from keeping kids from raising 4-H animals or crops just because they were in town or lived on limited acreage. The law just states that the 4-h'er must be taking good care of the animal, reasonably controlling the manure odor, and the animal must have adequate feed and water. We have ducks in town and no smell. Dh made portable runs and we move them to fresh grass every three or four days. It takes care of that issue. Chickens can be done the same way. So, if you have a 4-H exemption within your township, your HOA should not be able to trump that legally. Have the kids join, get a few chickens (be kind- don't keep a rooster), and then keep them in a portable run so that you can move it around and not have a growing chicken manure pile.

 

Faith

 

Great law! I wonder if NJ would have a similar unknown law.