Check the Logic of this please?

[Ritsumei]

I have a quote that looks pretty logical to me, and I wanted to see what the Hive thinks, as doing Logic for myself is still on the "to-do" list, and Monkey's years from it still. Here it is:

 

"According to physiological law, all natural, normal functions of the body are achieved without peril or pain. Birth is a natural, normal physiological function for normal, healthy women, and their healthy babies. It can, therefore, be inferred that healthy women, carrying healthy babies, can safely birth without peril or pain."

 

I realize that there are very few women who DO birth without pain, and I'm not trying to belittle anyone's birth choices or experiences - I'm just pondering this statement, and trying to evaluate it: true or false. I'm not interested in hearing how impossible it is, unless you can give a non-birth example of something that is a normal body function which causes pain when it's working properly. I'm looking at the logic of the statement, regardless of the uncommonness of the experience that they're talking about.

 

To me, it looks like it should be a true statement.

 

------------------------------------

1. Normal body functions, working properly, don't hurt and are not dangerous.

 

2. Birth is a normal body function.

 

Therefore:

 

3. Birth can be accomplished without pain or danger.

------------------------------------

 

It's that first statement that keeps me pondering. I, personally, can't come up with a normal body process (besides possibly birth) that hurts when things are going right. I have seen videos of women who look like they are in no distress whatsoever, which seems like it ought to lend credibility to the statement. But a single example contrary to #1 ought to disprove the whole thing. What do you guys think? And do you have a contrary example?

[ThatCyndiGirl]

If you read Hypnobirthing materials they talk about this. They assert that FEAR is what causes women to tense up and that THAT tension causes the pain. (They call is something like the FEAR PAIN Cycle or something. Namely, that women feel the contraction and instead of working WITH it, they tense up around it and work against it, causing more pain. I actively relaxed during the last birth and it was so, so different. Like night and day.)

 

I believe it. My last was born in water at home in our backyard and it was VASTLY different than the first two. (wasn't induced, either, which I think is also key!) I think that the message that women hear in this American culture over and over again is that 'birth hurts' and that THAT is considered the norm.

[Perry]

To me, it looks like it should be a true statement.

 

------------------------------------

1. Normal body functions, working properly, don't hurt and are not dangerous.

 

2. Birth is a normal body function.

 

Therefore:

 

3. Birth can be accomplished without pain or danger.

------------------------------------

I disagree with #1.

 

Birth for most women hurts. You don't really need another example.

[Snickerdoodle]

Immune reactions can be painful. Ask anyone who has been in anaphylaxis.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I disagree with #1.

 

Birth for most women hurts. You don't really need another example.

 

 

The question, though....is "is it SUPPOSED to hurt or are we en-culturated to believe that it HAS to be that way?"

 

Well, that is MY question, maybe not OP's question. :lol:

 

We are bombarded by every side by "It just hurts" rhetoric and women telling each other their birth horror stories like a badge of pride. (Sometimes it feels like they are trying to one-up each other!)

 

But, ......does it HAVE to be that way?

[Mergath]

I find the idea of "normal bodily functions" very vague. Is passing a kidney stone a normal bodily function? It happens to people all the time, and is both painful and sometimes perilous. Is gas a normal bodily function? Being bloated hurts. Is a fever a normal bodily function? Fevers can certainly be perilous if they get too high.

 

I think the problem here is with the word "normal."

[Teachin'Mine]

I think you'd need to define normal body functions, and I don't see how birth could fit into most common definitions of that. But then again, I haven't done any logic yet. :D

[Perry]

The question, though....is "is it SUPPOSED to hurt or are we en-culturated to believe that it HAS to be that way?"

 

Well, that is MY question, maybe not OP's question. :lol:

 

We are bombarded by every side by "It just hurts" rhetoric and women telling each other their birth horror stories like a badge of pride. (Sometimes it feels like they are trying to one-up each other!)

 

But, ......does it HAVE to be that way?

 

 

 

There's also the issue of danger. Lots of normal, healthy women with normal, healthy babies have died in childbirth, so I disagree with the assumption that it's not dangerous.

[s0nicfreak]

I find the idea of "normal bodily functions" very vague. Is passing a kidney stone a normal bodily function? It happens to people all the time, and is both painful and sometimes perilous. Is gas a normal bodily function? Being bloated hurts. Is a fever a normal bodily function? Fevers can certainly be perilous if they get too high.

 

I think the problem here is with the word "normal."

Those are all examples of things not working right, though. If you were eating right, you wouldn't get kidney stones or gas. If you were healthy, you wouldn't get a fever.

[Mergath]

Those are all examples of things not working right, though. If you were eating right, you wouldn't get kidney stones or gas. If you were healthy, you wouldn't get a fever.

 

Not necessarily. A fever, for example, is exactly what the body is supposed to do in the presence of an infection. Some people have excellent diets and still get kidney stones or gas. Every person's body is different.

[dhudson]

I think #1 is a faulty assumption. Who made this statement and why should we accept it as truth? Where is the proof behind it?

 

Growing pains come to mind as something that is a normal function of the body and can be painful for some children. Also physical cramping during menustration is a normal function of the body and can be painful. The body attacking a splinter in the body is a normal function but produces pain until it is out. Far too many assumptions for me to accept as truth.

 

I would still say that #1 is incorrect and therefore #3 is incorrect.

[s0nicfreak]

Also physical cramping during menustration is a normal function of the body and can be painful.

But that's painfull because your body doesn't want you to do it. If things were done naturally, women would be pregnant or breastfeeding all the time, and wouldn't get periods.

[juelle]

Sounds great, in an ideal world. Our bodies, though, seem pretty bound to be less than ideal. :001_smile:

 

And while birth is natural, necessary, common, and usually works so well, it's hard for me to categorise it as 'normal'.

[Mergath]

But that's painfull because your body doesn't want you to do it. If things were done naturally, women would be pregnant or breastfeeding all the time, and wouldn't get periods.

 

It's painful because the uterus contracts. And it's perfectly natural to have a period- even women who use no birth control and have sex regularly aren't pregnant every month. Often, the body doesn't even release an egg during a cycle, or the egg doesn't fertilize. Shedding the uterine lining is actually very healthy and normal. :)

[Ritsumei]

It's a statement made by a doctor - in 1891. It's quoted in my Hypnobirthing materials, and I appreciate the responses, both in favor & opposing. This, so far, is exactly the sort of discussion I was hoping for.

 

In my mind, birth is something that the female body is designed to do, using a muscle, like any other, the way that it's supposed to be used. So I think it would fall into "normal, natural." Maybe "functioning properly" or some other phrase would be better. I'm looking at "all is well" sorts of conditions as "normal."

 

Growing pains are an interesting example. Kidney stones, immune reactions, I would think, are an example of something NOT going right -whatever the reason. Gas, yes, is normal. Happens to even the most "cultured" of us. Bloating, though, comes from an excess of gas, and I'm not so sure that's normal... though in pregnancy it's not uncommon. But I wonder if that's not linked to dehydration, cuz I notice a definite correlation to gas and water intake. Fevers, yes, they are a normal response, but in response to a non-"all is well" condition: attack by germs. Menstrual cramps are also interesting, though the physiological reasons that I'm aware of that cause them are things like endometriosis, which is not "all is well" conditions. But I know not all come from that, and I don't know what causes the regular stuff that women don't go to the doctor for. Again, in myself, I do notice a correlation between hydration & cramping though. Hmmmm. Gonna have to ponder that one too.

 

The question, though....is "is it SUPPOSED to hurt or are we en-culturated to believe that it HAS to be that way?"

 

Well, that is MY question, maybe not OP's question.

 

We are bombarded by every side by "It just hurts" rhetoric and women telling each other their birth horror stories like a badge of pride. (Sometimes it feels like they are trying to one-up each other!)

 

But, ......does it HAVE to be that way?

 

This is exactly the crux of my question; the thing that I'm pondering. I did a Hypnobirthing birth once, and I wouldn't call it pain... though I haven't got a word that adequately describes the experience. I'm re-doing the class now for my 2nd pregnancy, and since discovering commonplace notebooks & Classical Education & things, I find that I'm approaching the materials differently. I hadn't realized how much my thought process has changed over the past 4 years!

 

 

************************************

 

My son has been patiently waiting to go outside while I type, so I told him he could do some icons. He loves those things:

 

:iagree::iagree::auto::auto::glare::glare::iagree::iagree:

[ncmomo3]

When mine were babies, the normal bodily process of teeth coming in *seemed * to be painful to them. ;)

[Tap]

Here is another way to think about things. Or maybe just to add fuel to the fire :D I don't necessarily believe this just throwing it out there.

 

Birth is not a natural function of the body. It is the seed of man, that is implanted into woman. It isn't a function that is natural in a woman by itself. (Like the example of eating poorly) It is the expelling of essentially a parasite from the womb. A baby only takes from the mother. It doesn't coexist, it exists only by feeding on the host. When the baby no longer has a hospitable womb and can survive on its own, it is ejected from the host. This process may be painful for the mother or the mother may feel no pain.

 

The baby changes the mother's body forever. This change, can be essentially unrelated to the birthing process like the filling of the breasts with milk, and the lifelong changes this creates or it can be more direct like the ripping of skin as the baby exits the birthing canal. These processes are both painful, yet neither are for the mother's benefit....only the baby.

 

 

So, while you are thinking about birth being painful to the woman. Is the birth about the woman or is the birth about the baby? If this is the case the true question would then be, does the baby feel pain by being birthed.

 

I think the logic of this question if false due to this misalignment of the statement.

 

It is not true that a woman feels no pain during birth.... for 'birthing' is not natural.....It should read that a baby feels no pain during birth, because 'being birthed' is natural.

[dhudson]

How about menopause? It's a natural process of the female's body and from what I can tell from older women in my life, it's not an easy process. I still say that #1 is a faulty assumption.

 

Going CC here -

 

If the world was without sin then yes, I think #1 could be correct but since the Bible says that women will have pain in childbirth then in my world view #1 would be wrong. (Cause in my worldview God trumps doctor every time.):lol:

[cillakat]

ridiculous

 

•teething can hurt

•bowel movements (or the feeling preceeding it) can hurt or be uncomfortable

•menstruation can hurt (pms) - much less with sufficient magnesium and efa's and vitamin d but it still is uncomfortable to a degree.

 

Regardless, birth hurts for most women. This isn't a construct of western civilization. Women the world over feel pain in childbirth with or without fear.

 

Quite frankly, I wasn't afraid. I'd been to many births before my own. It was much more painful than I'd expected.

 

 

K

[cillakat]

But that's painfull because your body doesn't want you to do it. If things were done naturally, women would be pregnant or breastfeeding all the time, and wouldn't get periods.

 

even in a traditional culture women do get periods. just not as many.

 

it's a normal physiological function. Normal. Not pathological.

[Snickerdoodle]

It's a statement made by a doctor - in 1891.

 

Let me guess: A man wrote it. :D

[Carrie12345]

When mine were babies, the normal bodily process of teeth coming in *seemed * to be painful to them. ;)

 

Ooh, good one!

 

To stick with the reproductive aspect, implantation itself can be painful in some cases. I have been doubled over a few times, myself.

 

I think statement #1 is too vague/broad to logically lead to statement #3.

(But we're only on Critical Thinking Book 1 at our house!)

[Ritsumei]

When mine were babies, the normal bodily process of teeth coming in *seemed * to be painful to them. ;)

 

This is a good one. Best one yet, I'd say. Given my own son's response to tylenol, I'd say there was definitely some pain there!

 

Going CC here -

 

If the world was without sin then yes, I think #1 could be correct but since the Bible says that women will have pain in childbirth then in my world view #1 would be wrong. (Cause in my worldview God trumps doctor every time.):lol:

 

We're CC too, and I totally agree that God trumps doctor. It's my understanding that was the same word which was rendered for "sweat of thy face" and "in sorrow thou shalt conceive", in the original language, but the English came out much differently, and with VASTLY different connotations! I haven't studied Hebrew (sure would like to!), but I'm sure I read that... somewhere. Cuz I thought it was fascinating, so it stuck with me. It might actually have been in the Hypnobirthing book itself. I can't remember, because the last time I looked at this stuff was 4 years ago. Hopefully it was in some book that I own, so that I'll find it again as I'm re-reading this stuff.

 

Actually, DH & I's reasoning, religiously, went along these lines: God made bodies, he's the perfect architect AND our loving Father. His Plan is designed to teach us to live happily, so it hardly makes sense for Him to build a body in a way that causes pain, unless there is some compelling reason to do so. I can't think of what that reason would be, and I believe that He would explain it, if there was. (The Hebrew translation thing takes care of the "in sorrow" from Genesis, in our minds.) Therefore, I don't think that was His intent, and I start looking at cultural sources - in this case, deep seated & long lasting attitudes that have been around for centuries.

 

And that same CC worldview causes me to reject the "baby as parasite" out of hand, though it's something that I know some would consider!:D

[Ritsumei]

Ah, here's the Hebrew thing:

 

... the Hebrew word etzev, used sixteen times in the King James I version, is translated to mean "labor, toil, and work" throughout most Bibles, but when the same translators referred to childbirth, the word was interpreted to mean "pain, sorrow, anguish or pangs." Other scholars, too, point out that the prophets made no such reference to pain in their writings on childbirth. Wessel states that there was never an actual curse placed exclusively upon Eve. In Genesis, God uses the very same wording in speaking to Adam as to Eve. The translators, though, influenced by the terrible conditions surrounding birth, chose to translate the dictum delivered to Eve differently. (Hypnobirthing: The Mongan Method, page 39)

Not knowing Hebrew, nor any Hebrew scholars, I can't check the claim. But if it's true, it makes the passage in Genesis 3 sound more like God instructing them on their respective gender roles: Adam, you're going to support and protect the family. Eve, you're primarily responsible for the bearing and nurturing of children. Both are very labor-intensive jobs, which fits the Hypnobirthing book's explanation of the word etzev.

 

In any case, it solves the "curse of Eve" portion of the puzzle for me, though I realize it won't for everyone. This whole section of the book, where it follows birth through the millenia is very interesting, though I do wish they'd put in some footnotes so that the reader could look at their sources.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Ritsumei
I messed up the book quote.

[Aggie]

Well, if birth is a normal process, then being pregnant is, too.

 

Being pregnant was painful for me. Not to mention the daily nausea. :glare:

[silliness7]

I just read something about leprosy the other day. The reason a leper slowly starts losing fingers/toes etc. is because they no longer feel pain. Pain is a gift to let you know to take your hand out of the fire. Leper's bodies don't sense pain. They do not know danger is at hand and they inadvertently injure themselves. So in that sense pain is good.

[myfunnybunch]

But a single example contrary to #1 ought to disprove the whole thing. What do you guys think? And do you have a contrary example?

 

I haven't read any of the other responses yet, so perhaps someone has pointed this out: I'm not sure why giving birth, a natural process that has been painful for many, is being discounted as an example. Giving birth, a normal body function, is painful for many healthy women and therefore is the example that disproves #1.

 

Using examples of women giving birth without pain to prove #1 is the flip side of using examples of women who've experienced pain in childbirth to disprove it. Either you must give credibility to both--it is within the realm of possibility for normal childbirth to be painful and for it to be painless (or to throw a monkey-wrench into the works, all shades in between)--or abandon altogether the examples of women who give birth painlessly to support your argument.

 

Cat (Who was focused, excited and unafraid during childbirth and still thinks it hurt like the dickens to squeeze those babies out)

[jazzyfizzle]

I just read something about leprosy the other day. The reason a leper slowly starts losing fingers/toes etc. is because they no longer feel pain. Pain is a gift to let you know to take your hand out of the fire. Leper's bodies don't sense pain.

 

 

Or, is it that the nerves are damaged and becoming moreso, the more damage to the nerves the more loss of blood circulation, so the tissue starts dying off?

[coralloyd]

How about losing your baby teeth and growing in the big ones. This is painful, very normal, nothing is "wrong", & you can do nothing to avoid it.

[SproutMamaK]

If the world was without sin then yes, I think #1 could be correct but since the Bible says that women will have pain in childbirth then in my world view #1 would be wrong. (Cause in my worldview God trumps doctor every time.):lol:

 

Technically, God said he would greatly INCREASE pain in labour. To me, that sounds like there would have been some, to a negligible degree, before sin.

 

Aside from teething, a PP mentioned regular old growing pain. My kids get cramps just from growing and stretching.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

But that's painfull because your body doesn't want you to do it. If things were done naturally, women would be pregnant or breastfeeding all the time, and wouldn't get periods.

 

 

Are you a troll? Or, are you kidding?

[Suzanne in ABQ]

 

------------------------------------

1. Normal body functions, working properly, don't hurt and are not dangerous.

 

2. Birth is a normal body function.

 

Therefore:

 

3. Birth can be accomplished without pain or danger.

------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

It is a logical argument, but it is not true.

 

In order for the argument to be true, both of the premises (1. and 2.) would have to be true.

 

As has been shown by several examples, there are many "normal body functions" that are painful. Therefore, Premise #1 is false.

 

As Tap pointed out, one could argue (reasonably, imo) that Premise #2 is also false.

 

Therefore, even though the argument is logically sound ('a' is 'b', and 'b' is 'c', therefore 'a' is 'c'), it is not true.

[cillakat]

The baby changes the mother's body forever. This change, can be essentially unrelated to the birthing process like the filling of the breasts with milk, and the lifelong changes this creates or it can be more direct like the ripping of skin as the baby exits the birthing canal. These processes are both painful, yet neither are for the mother's benefit....only the baby.

 

Both are beneficial to the mother.

 

Increased duration of both pregnancies (total number) and breastfeeding reduces various maternal cancer rates likely due to reduced estrogen load over the course of mom's life.

 

K

[Ritsumei]

I haven't read any of the other responses yet, so perhaps someone has pointed this out: I'm not sure why giving birth, a natural process that has been painful for many, is being discounted as an example. Giving birth, a normal body function, is painful for many healthy women and therefore is the example that disproves #1.

 

Using examples of women giving birth without pain to prove #1 is the flip side of using examples of women who've experienced pain in childbirth to disprove it. Either you must give credibility to both--it is within the realm of possibility for normal childbirth to be painful and for it to be painless (or to throw a monkey-wrench into the works, all shades in between)--or abandon altogether the examples of women who give birth painlessly to support your argument.

 

Cat (Who was focused, excited and unafraid during childbirth and still thinks it hurt like the dickens to squeeze those babies out)

 

The assertion of #3 is that it CAN be done, not that it WILL happen that way, so I think you could have both painful and pain-free examples of birth without proving or disproving the whole thing. There are, obviously enough, plenty of factors that go into giving birth that ultimately determine the level of pain. Only one of those factors, are Mom and Baby both completely healthy, is really being looked at in this particular statement. The thing that I am pondering here is: Is it possible to give birth without pain, or are these guys full of beans. You'd think that I'd have this figured out by now, this being my 2nd Hypnobirthing baby, but I find that after studying Classical Education & starting a commonplace notebook, I'm approaching the materials differently than I did the first time, 4 years ago, before I had the so much as heard of CE, SWB, The Well-Educated/Trained Mind, and so on. I appreciate very much the clarifying comments that everyone has left!

[myfunnybunch]

The thing that I am pondering here is: Is it possible to give birth without pain, or are these guys full of beans.

 

Individual experiences are so...individual. The logic of the statement really depends on whether or not saying it "can" be done means "it is possible for all individuals" or "it is possible for some individuals."

 

I personally know someone who gave birth completely pain-free, twice. So, ime, it is possible for some individuals. She had lovely birth experiences. I got to hear about them after the births of my children, and also about how if I'd only done things "right" I, too, would have had a pain-free experience. :glare: So I am a little sensitive to this topic, which got me a little sidetracked, lol.

 

My main question was, Why is healthy normal painful birth not an acceptable example of a healthy normal body function that can cause pain?

 

:)

 

Cat

[s0nicfreak]

Are you a troll? Or, are you kidding?

Neither.

[Meriwether]

Has anyone mentioned teething?

[Ritsumei]

:glare: So I am a little sensitive to this topic, which got me a little sidetracked, lol.

 

My main question was, Why is healthy normal painful birth not an acceptable example of a healthy normal body function that can cause pain?

 

:)

 

Cat

 

Yeah, I know there's a lot of sensitivity on this for a lot of people, and I tried very hard to pose the question in a way that would make it clear that I'm not trying to judge anyone's choices or experience, just to get it clear in my mind: are the claims made credible ones, (which is intended to be the main thrust of the thread) and, if I decide that the claims are credible, which I think at this point I'm convinced they are, so then does the "prescription" they give for achieving that sort of birth experience make sense & can I get there, is the next question on my mind. That, obviously, will have to be the topic of further study & work off the boards. Hopefully, I haven't come across as judgmental, though on such a sensitive topic, being perceived as being non-judgmental is a tall order, regardless of intent or effort! I'm sorry to have hit a tender spot for you.

 

I actually think that it's very possible to have a normal, healthy birth that causes pain. I'm certainly not belittling or denying what you experienced! As I ponder this, particularly in light of the cultural conditioning that we get in the US & the West, I think that the presence of pain in so many births doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be that way. So, in my opinion, examples of pain in birth don't prove the statement false, any more than deciding it's true means that all healthy births are pain-free. I see pain as inconclusive evidence either way. But I had to figure out the logic of the statement first, before I could form an opinion about the trueness or falseness of the statement, and I haven't studied logic yet, so I needed help with that part, which the Hive has kindly provided.