How can you "not allow" your adult children to do something?

[OnTheBrink]

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that as prices go up and jobs go down, children are going to be staying home longer, but you can't treat them like kids just because they live in your house.

 

I'm assuming we would all require common courtesy of adults living together.

 

People of all ages have a hard time making ends meet, yet we're using financial stability as a marker of adulthood?

 

Well, that's true, but still, there are courtesies and responsibilities involved. Even in the scenario that my child is educated and looking for work, but still at home, there'd be restrictions placed, such as no overnight female guests, no smoking, no booze, and must be actively looking for work. At the same time, I won't be having overnight male guests, be smoking and boozing. I wouldn't allow an unrelated house guest to smoke or drink or bring home girlfriends; I surely wouldn't allow it of my children.

[justamouse]

This is what my family did. All eight of us kids moved home at one time or another. We were treated as adults because we were adults. We gave our parents the courtesy of letting them know when we were coming and going (just as I do with my dh in my own house) and called when we were going to be late, etc. But we were treated as adults and respected for our contributions.

[....snip]

 

 

Exactly.

[justamouse]

Well, that's true, but still, there are courtesies and responsibilities involved.

 

Which is what I said, adults living together and those are your personal house rules.

 

Me? I'd be making my (of age) kids drinks and drinking right along with them. ;) And having gone through the turmoil of adult girlfriends, I've learned that as long as I am not made blatantly aware of any 'tea' parties, I'm OK with SOs sleeping over. (I was in a committed relationship at their age and living with my Dh, I understand where they'd be coming from) That said, I wouldn't allow a revolving door of Gfs/Bfs--but those are MY particular house rules.

Edited January 18, 2010 by justamouse

[Audrey]

:iagree: We have 3 adult children still living at home. We have family standards they have to follow and if they do not want to follow those they are welcome to live on their own. I know in our situtation especially we have lots of littles at home that are watching everything our oldest kids do so the oldest have extra responsibility to adhere to our standards while living here. As far as doing things like moving out, college, jobs, marrying etc they are adults and can do whatever they want, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't give counsel when asked.

 

 

But the OP specifically said she was NOT talking about adult children who still lived at home.

[TravelingChris]

I don't think my son reacted out of fear when we told him he had to get a job or get back to college or leave our house. ANd we didn't say that to induce fear. It was to induce reality. He was an adult who needed motivation to do the right thing (he was recovering from major depression). Going to the community college for a short while provided the outside influence he needed. Doing that, he got a job wherein his depression started lifted. THen when we moved here, we told him he had to apply to transfer to the local university, go get a job or leave. He decided the best course of action was to apply. He was astounded that he was accepted, started his classes, and his depression completely went away. Do I feel bad for threatening him to throw him out? NO. It was what all the medical personnel and counselors told us to do. The wrong thing to let him do both medically and for his life was to let him continue to stay in his room and sleep. ANd he didn't realy think there was anything coercive about what we said since that was our expectation for all of our children from when they were small. They know that they go to college, join the military, or get employment once they graduate. No hanging around here.

AS it is, we have to keep reminding our second of this too. Not because she is lazy or anything but because she is extremely anxious, particularly right before her time of the month. She gets very emotional and talks about how she can't go away to college and she can't leave the dog and the cat and her mommy. Well the best thing for her is to go away as scheduled in that year and a half. Most of the time, she can see that. Some of the time, her anxieties get the better of her.

 

Oh and neither of my older kids had their problems at 8. My son had not suffered depression nor had my daughter developed anxiety issues. I am sure that other older parents here can also tell you that any other issues their kids developed in older teen or adulthood were often not there at age 8 (think alcoholism, drug abuse, criminal issues, becoming an unwed parent, schizophrenia, bi-polar, etc, etc,). I know that you are thinking of your own experience but many of us have had children who have turned out not to be like us. Neither my husband nor I were either depressed or particularly anxious. So how we behaved as teens and young adults doesn't have much bearing on how our very different children behave and how we react to them.

[justamouse]

But the OP specifically said she was NOT talking about adult children who still lived at home.

 

Then I agree with Joanne.

[Melissa in Australia]

One of my goals in homeschooling is to make sure that at 18,19,20 years old my kids are grown ups. Meaning understand how to keep a home, cook meals, care for younger children, respect others, manage their own finances, support themselves, support a family, be responsible.. these are only a few things.

 

:iagree:

[chaik76]

Exactly.

Sorry that was such a long post! I'm a little wordy sometimes!:D

[Audrey]

Money talks and horse patootey walks...If they are not self sustaining and completely so that is all the incentive needed. It is amazing how many parents mine included have not used this method to get r done..Hunger and fear are great motivators. I cringe to think how many parents continue to support their offspring financially when the grades are rotten , the obedience and proper respect nil yet they keep throwing money at the kid hoping they will change.

 

 

Ah.... slightly different though... the child isn't living at home but still receiving financial support? Then, I think that the funding parents have every right to withdraw that support if the child isn't using them per agreement. I think part of the problem is that parents throw money at an adult kid without making a clear agreement regarding the funding.

[chaik76]

I don't think my son reacted out of fear when we told him he had to get a job or get back to college or leave our house. ANd we didn't say that to induce fear. It was to induce reality. He was an adult who needed motivation to do the right thing (he was recovering from major depression). Going to the community college for a short while provided the outside influence he needed. Doing that, he got a job wherein his depression started lifted. THen when we moved here, we told him he had to apply to transfer to the local university, go get a job or leave. He decided the best course of action was to apply. He was astounded that he was accepted, started his classes, and his depression completely went away. Do I feel bad for threatening him to throw him out? NO. It was what all the medical personnel and counselors told us to do. The wrong thing to let him do both medically and for his life was to let him continue to stay in his room and sleep. ANd he didn't realy think there was anything coercive about what we said since that was our expectation for all of our children from when they were small. They know that they go to college, join the military, or get employment once they graduate. No hanging around here.

AS it is, we have to keep reminding our second of this too. Not because she is lazy or anything but because she is extremely anxious, particularly right before her time of the month. She gets very emotional and talks about how she can't go away to college and she can't leave the dog and the cat and her mommy. Well the best thing for her is to go away as scheduled in that year and a half. Most of the time, she can see that. Some of the time, her anxieties get the better of her.

 

Oh and neither of my older kids had their problems at 8. My son had not suffered depression nor had my daughter developed anxiety issues. I am sure that other older parents here can also tell you that any other issues their kids developed in older teen or adulthood were often not there at age 8 (think alcoholism, drug abuse, criminal issues, becoming an unwed parent, schizophrenia, bi-polar, etc, etc,). I know that you are thinking of your own experience but many of us have had children who have turned out not to be like us. Neither my husband nor I were either depressed or particularly anxious. So how we behaved as teens and young adults doesn't have much bearing on how our very different children behave and how we react to them.

I think you're dealing with a different issue than I'm talking about honestly. And while my children will obviously be different I'm going with the experience of the generations of my family...each generation has been quite large, so believe me, we've had our share of depression, anxiety, drug abuse, other addictions, etc.

 

I was specifically, in my OP, talking about adult children who have left home. The thread kind of went in a different direction than that question, though. And btw, my eight-year olds suffers from several issues that are here now, and will be there in adulthood. They will make his transition harder, but I will still treat him like an adult when he is one, just as my parents treated me as an adult when I was eighteen (and had depression and anxiety).

[Barb_]

I've seen this on many forums (not just WTM)...where parents say they will not "allow" their adult children (over the age of eighteen) to do one thing or the other. This just confuses me greatly. Why would anyone want to do that for one thing? Don't you assume that your children will be capable of making their own decisions by this age? .

 

An 18 year old seems grown until one of them is actually yours. They really are still kids in so many ways. Oh, I encourage mine to make her own decisions and I treat her as an adult for most purposes, but there are certain things upon which I don't budge, much to her annoyance. She was in a near-fatal car accident last October when she fell asleep at the wheel on her way home. I don't think she possesses the judgement to drive safely because she still allows herself to function on way too little sleep and she tends toward recklessness. I refused to pay to put her on our car insurance again and she can't afford it. In many other ways she is wise and mature beyond her years, but there are certain areas where she is foolhardy.

 

I've also forbidden her to move into an apartment. If she is living away from home during college, she must live in a dorm all 4 years. Her dorms are brand new, clean, quiet, and nice but she chafes under the oversight. Too bad. I don't feel she's ready for the responsibility and the distractions of apartment life. I've told her that if she decides against our wishes to move into an apartment, she has just moved out of the house permanently and will be completely self-supporting from now on.

 

Once a child is 18, he or she is no longer protected by the law as a juvenile. Mistakes carry a much larger weight and stupid misjudgements can alter the trajectory of an entire life. It's my job to save my young adults from themselves, to a certain extent. Adulthood is so much more than an age. If she were married with children at 19, or entirely self supporting...well then she would no longer be our responsibility. We will always be available for emotional support or to lend a financial hand, but once they are out on their own, it's sink or swim time. Prior to that, there is an extended gray area where increased responsibility and priviledge still travel hand in hand.

 

Barb

[chaik76]

An 18 year old seems grown until one of them is actually yours. They really are still kids in so many ways. Oh, I encourage mine to make her own decisions and I treat her as an adult for most purposes, but there are certain things upon which I don't budge, much to her annoyance. She was in a near-fatal car accident last October when she fell asleep at the wheel on her way home. I don't think she possesses the judgement to drive safely because she still allows herself to function on way too little sleep and she tends toward recklessness. I refused to pay to put her on our car insurance again and she can't afford it. In many other ways she is wise and mature beyond her years, but there are certain areas where she is foolhardy.

I wasn't on my parents insurance once I turned eighteen (and couldn't afford a car or insurance, so had none) and I can see this. Not keeping her on your insurance sounds like you are treating her like an adult honestly. It is after all, your insurance, not hers.

 

I've also forbidden her to move into an apartment. If she is living away from home during college, she must live in a dorm all 4 years. Her dorms are brand new, clean, quiet, and nice but she chafes under the oversight. Too bad. I don't feel she's ready for the responsibility and the distractions of apartment life. I've told her that if she decides against our wishes to move into an apartment, she has just moved out of the house permanently and will be completely self-supporting from now on.

 

This I don't get. No one could forbid me to do something when I was eighteen. It was up to me. Now, I did take some of the advice given me. And didn't take other advice (sometimes I should have). But really, this is not something I would have allowed someone else to control for me at eighteen, nor would my family have expected to control it. If I messed up, they would have been there to help in the ways they could (emotional support while still telling me I messed up), but it would have been my choice. I chose to live in the dorms all four years (it was actually hard to get off campus release, anyway).

Once a child is 18, he or she is no longer protected by the law as a juvenile. Mistakes carry a much larger weight and stupid misjudgements can alter the trajectory of an entire life. It's my job to save my young adults from themselves, to a certain extent. Adulthood is so much more than an age. If she were married with children at 19, or entirely self supporting...well then she would no longer be our responsibility. We will always be available for emotional support or to lend a financial hand, but once they are out on their own, it's sink or swim time. Prior to that, there is an extended gray area where increased responsibility and priviledge still travel hand in hand.

 

Barb

 

I think eighteen year olds and up are capable of far more than we expect of them...I think that we, as a society (not you specifically) extend childhood a looong ways into that grey area...even a hundred years ago, kids weren't kids as long as they are today. I think our very society supports the notion of adults remaining children quite longer than they should be.

[Barb_]

I

As I have said here before, my great grandmother got married at 13, had babies at 14 and 16, took care of her children, ran the home, AND ran her husband's store while he was at his other job of postmaster, before she was 17. I realize that's anecdotal, but there are millions of stories like this, and history has shown us that extending childhood through the teen years is the exception, not the norm.

 

I sort of agree, but I sort of don't. When children married at 13 or 14 or 15, life was often much harder than it needed to be. My great grandmother also married young...15 for her. Her husband was immature and couldn't hold down a job. He was an alcoholic who (I suspect from family hints) beat her. She was too young to even think of standing up to him. Her sons grew up watching their father and also maltreated her until long after they were grown and had raised their own kids. My other great grandmother married at 16. She and her husband were dirt poor and could barely feed their children. I've seen pictures of my grandpa and my aunt and they both looked malnourished as children. My grandma and grandpa married at 16 and lived on their own for a while, but eventually couldn't support themselves either. A couple of years later they had to move back in with my great grandparents. In fact, generations living together in the same house was often the reason younger couples could manage to marry and start a family. They weren't truly self-supporting adults either...just married.

 

I think we sometimes romanticize times past. Sometimes marrying as a teen works out...it has on this board many times. But I don't think it's correct to say adulthood pushed down to the teen years is better across the board. I also don't agree with the trend of infantilizing young adults. I think it's ridiculous that it's nearly impossible for a 15yo to find a paying job. I think high schools do more to extend childhood than any other construct of our society. But I do think older teens and people in their early 20's still need and crave our guidance.

 

Barb

Edited January 19, 2010 by Barb F. PA in AZ

[Nan in Mass]

Pooling your resources makes sense. My family has always done this. It means we all have cheaper vacations, a car when ours breaks, child care, someone to take care of us when we are sick, someone to shovel out the old people when it snows, etc.

[Joanne]

I've also forbidden her to move into an apartment. If she is living away from home during college, she must live in a dorm all 4 years. Her dorms are brand new, clean, quiet, and nice but she chafes under the oversight. Too bad. I don't feel she's ready for the responsibility and the distractions of apartment life. I've told her that if she decides against our wishes to move into an apartment, she has just moved out of the house permanently and will be completely self-supporting from now on.

 

 

Barb

 

Barb, this surprises me of you. A child/adult can mature dramatically during years 18-22. Do you expect she'll be the same distractable, not ready for apartment/college during the entire next 4 years?

[Barb_]

I wasn't on my parents insurance once I turned eighteen (and couldn't afford a car or insurance, so had none) and I can see this. Not keeping her on your insurance sounds like you are treating her like an adult honestly. It is after all, your insurance, not hers..

 

Precisely. We were paying her insurance while she was in college full time because she is taking 18-21 credit hours and cannot afford to work the hours necessary to pay for car insurance. Since we were providing it, it was a privilege. She showed poor judgement, almost killed herself, and almost killed four or five construction workers when she rolled the car into the median. She isn't safe. Now, I cannot legally prohibit her from getting back into the car, but I can recind the privilege of having her insurance covered which in effect keeps her off the road.

 

This I don't get. No one could forbid me to do something when I was eighteen. It was up to me. Now, I did take some of the advice given me. And didn't take other advice (sometimes I should have). But really, this is not something I would have allowed someone else to control for me at eighteen, nor would my family have expected to control it. If I messed up, they would have been there to help in the ways they could (emotional support while still telling me I messed up), but it would have been my choice. I chose to live in the dorms all four years (it was actually hard to get off campus release, anyway). ..

 

Were your parents footing the bills? If she were to wish to live off campus, that's her perogative as long as she were able to support herself. Since she is still a dependent, we decide what we are comfortable with. There are really very few things that we give her an unequivical no on, but this is one of them.

 

I

think eighteen year olds and up are capable of far more than we expect of them...I think that we, as a society (not you specifically) extend childhood a looong ways into that grey area...even a hundred years ago, kids weren't kids as long as they are today. I think our very society supports the notion of adults remaining children quite longer than they should be..

 

And 3 or 4 years ago I would have agreed with you whole heartedly. See my post above. Experience has humbled me a bit. My 19yo is just confident enough to be a danger to herself. She has made some stunningly bad choices this year and I really believe it's overconfidence and refusing to believe that she doesn't have it all figured out. She was not like this at 16. She was always mature for her years and seemed to really have her head screwed on straight. It's almost like there is a second adolescence during the late teens.

 

Barb

Edited January 19, 2010 by Barb F. PA in AZ

[Daisy]

Well, I sure would have chafed if my parents had tried to tell me what I was and was not allowed to do at 18yo. I was living on my own 3,000 miles away, going to college, and paying for it.

 

If my children are still living under my roof at 18yo, I expect them to follow house rules. If you are paying for their expenses, then yes, I think you have some say in what they are doing. If they are on their own, I'm always available to share wanted advice and wisdom but I plan on treating them like adults. Most adults don't appreciate being told what they must do and they don't appreciate unsolicited advice.

 

And as far as whether an 18yo is an adult or not, well, in my house growing up the expectation was that you would be. So we were.

[Barb_]

Barb, this surprises me of you. A child/adult can mature dramatically during years 18-22. Do you expect she'll be the same distractable, not ready for apartment/college during the entire next 4 years?

 

She is actually almost 20 and no, she will not live in an apartment until she is supporting herself. This is particular to this daughter. We will reevaluate for each of our kids.

 

Barb

[Barb_]

someone to shovel out the old people when it snows, etc.

 

:lol:

 

Picturing my grandpa sitting in his lawn chair in the front yard with snow up to his ears.

 

Barb

[justamouse]

Pooling your resources makes sense. My family has always done this. It means we all have cheaper vacations, a car when ours breaks, child care, someone to take care of us when we are sick, someone to shovel out the old people when it snows, etc.

 

Total tangent here-

 

Dh comes from a tight Italian family where pooling resources is the norm. He also works with many different heritages where pooling family resources are the norm. America is a country where independence is praised, but at what cost? We've lost our support systems, our sense of community, our shared humanity. We boot our adult children out to take on mass amounts of debt and struggle well into thier later adulthood if they're not lucky.

 

Dh and I lived with his parents well before we were married. My MIL lived with her parents when they were newly married and took care of her mother when she was older, MILS parents lived with extended family when they immigrated. The ILs gave us loans to start our business, and Dh's sister's husband too. They could-they weren't saddled with debt from the get go, in turn they had the ability to help the next generation. We plan on doing the same, and we now have the ability to financially support them.

 

My BF is Vietnmese and her family all pool their $ and time. They own many, many houses, many, many businesses. All of their kids go to college, all contribute to the family.

Edited January 19, 2010 by justamouse

[Barb_]

Pooling your resources makes sense. My family has always done this. It means we all have cheaper vacations, a car when ours breaks, child care, someone to take care of us when we are sick, someone to shovel out the old people when it snows, etc.

 

Well, yes it does. But it can also in effect extend adolescence into marriage and beyond. My point was, teens were often not as self-supporting and adult as they seem in retrospect (exceptions noted).

 

Barb

[Osmosis Mom]

Barb, this surprises me of you. A child/adult can mature dramatically during years 18-22. Do you expect she'll be the same distractable, not ready for apartment/college during the entire next 4 years?

 

I actually totally sympathize!!!! Why have extra distractions at a time when you need to focus on studying and still living safely?

 

I am not over-protective, but I do have boundaries. This month dd 18 has lived in a rented room with a friend while working at college. She goes to Boston whenever she needs to and comes back late, usually together with her friends.

 

18 is totally arbitrary to me, honestly. Same with age for getting a driver's license which here in my area is 16. I was 25 when I got mine and that was plenty early for me, lol!!!

 

As far as I am concerned, then as my children finish their BA-degrees their level of maturity and need for indepence will increase. However, while they are studying and getting used to also having work and new responsibilities, then I feel it is love to still set boundaries so they can feel still protected and under our wings a wee bit longer.

 

I remember in highschool I had friends who moved out at 18 while doing high school. It seemed very cold to me, as if the responsibility of the parents expired at age 18 (perhaps it did so to these people...).

 

Choosing children's majors and course of life is a different thing. You can offer advice and perspective, but dominating is not my thing.

[Daisy]

She is actually almost 20 and no, she will not live in an apartment until she is supporting herself. This is particular to this daughter. We will reevaluate for each of our kids.

 

Barb

 

:iagree:

 

Well, I totally agree with you. If you are supporting her, I think you have the say.

 

I also realize with the current economy that is has become more difficult for college age adults to find good jobs. It may have us all rethinking things.

[justamouse]

Well, yes it does. But it can also in effect extend adolescence into marriage and beyond. My point was, teens were often not as self-supporting and adult as they seem in retrospect (exceptions noted).

 

Barb

 

I think there's a space between what your experience is and the effect of extending adolescence by pooling resources. I don't know what it is, but having a child like yours (who is now feeling the pain of his "I'm all grown up" bad decisions (it was hard watching him fall)) and the support of adult family pooling their resources is two different things. I'll have to think about what exactly that is.

[elfgivas]

She is actually almost 20 and no, she will not live in an apartment until she is supporting herself. This is particular to this daughter. We will reevaluate for each of our kids.

 

Barb

 

hi barb -

 

i totally get this. dd age 23 is barely ready now to live in an apartment.... she wasn't last year. what was different is that after failing out of the first university, she realized she needed dorms and chose a community college that had them. she is the second of four; the first studied overseas at 20 for a year.... ie. they're all different and we need to parent as best we can. i truly don't think this is something many folks understand unless they've seen one of their own incapable of some adult decisions...

 

hang in there!

ann

[Barb_]

She is actually almost 20 and no, she will not live in an apartment until she is supporting herself. This is particular to this daughter. We will reevaluate for each of our kids.

 

Barb

 

Actually I'm going to quote myself here because I'd like to expand just a little bit. The OP was looking for perspective, or was maybe just looking to blow off steam and I stepped into the line of fire. I shared a couple of examples of how I've needed to tell my daughter "no" this year, but it's really difficult to share the context without compromising her privacy. Suffice it to say that I've always given her plenty of latitude within an acceptable system of developmentally appropriate boundaries but for the past 18mos or so I've been completely blindsided by multiple crises that I'm beginning to realized she has either caused or exacerbated by her own poor judgement. I've needed to take a step back and look at the situation objectively. My husband and I have come to the conclusion that this daughter in this set of circumstances needs to be protected from herself. We would be remiss if we didn't. This will not affect our parenting style for the long term. We treat each of our children as individuals, so as long as the next one continues to thrive with plenty of rope she will wind up with more autonomy at the same age.

 

I just think it's a mistake to believe all 18-22yo's will be at the same place developmentally because they've reached a certain age. We don't believe that of 2yo's or 13yo's, right?

 

Barb

[Barb_]

I think there's a space between what your experience is and the effect of extending adolescence by pooling resources. I don't know what it is, but having a child like yours (who is now feeling the pain of his "I'm all grown up" bad decisions (it was hard watching him fall)) and the support of adult family pooling their resources is two different things. I'll have to think about what exactly that is.

 

Actually, this is a blending of two ideas that really weren't meant to be blended. The pooling resources thing was only meant to support my statement that even back in the old days when teens were supposed to have grown up faster, many (most?) still had time to practice for adulthood even after marriage, within the bosom of the family of origin. Which is good thing! So while our society overtly and falsely extends childhood (and it does!), that is only partly the cause of the immaturity of older teens. Part of the immaturity is simply development.

 

Barb

[RegGuheert]

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that as prices go up and jobs go down, children are going to be staying home longer, but you can't treat them like kids just because they live in your house.

 

I'm assuming we would all require common courtesy of adults living together.

 

People of all ages have a hard time making ends meet, yet we're using financial stability as a marker of adulthood?

 

And, believe you me, I am not taking on a lifetime of debt paying for my (7) kid's college educations (and I refuse to throw good $ after bad), but I'm also expecting them to live with me while they stabilize themselves financially.

Thanks for clarifying! I'm sorry to have mistook your comments. As most of you know, I'm expecting the economy to get much worse, so I don't think this scenario is far-fetched. DS19 and DD17 will both be graduating with BS degrees in May 2012, Lord willing. If DS19 doesn't get a job and/or if we cannot afford medical school for DD17, we may face this exact scenario. We will cross that bridge when/if it happens.

Total tangent here-

 

Dh comes from a tight Italian family where pooling resources is the norm. He also works with many different heritages where pooling family resources are the norm. America is a country where independence is praised, but at what cost? We've lost our support systems, our sense of community, our shared humanity. We boot our adult children out to take on mass amounts of debt and struggle well into thier later adulthood if they're not lucky.

 

Dh and I lived with his parents well before we were married. My MIL lived with her parents when they were newly married and took care of her mother when she was older, MILS parents lived with extended family when they immigrated. The ILs gave us loans to start our business, and Dh's sister's husband too. They could-they weren't saddled with debt from the get go, in turn they had the ability to help the next generation. We plan on doing the same, and we now have the ability to financially support them.

 

My BF is Vietnmese and her family all pool their $ and time. They own many, many houses, many, many businesses. All of their kids go to college, all contribute to the family.

Nice post! Our goal is to create exactly such a tradition in our family. We were studying home-based businesses about 10 years ago and we learned about this tradition of many Asians at that time. We decided to attempt to do just that with our children. We hope they can get a good start at a debt-free existence iwth proper support and guidance from us. Part of our plan was to run our own business by now so that we could advise from experience. That has not happened, yet, but it possibly could in the near future, depending on what happens with my job. We shall see...

[Barb_]

hi barb -

 

i totally get this. dd age 23 is barely ready now to live in an apartment.... she wasn't last year. what was different is that after failing out of the first university, she realized she needed dorms and chose a community college that had them. she is the second of four; the first studied overseas at 20 for a year.... ie. they're all different and we need to parent as best we can. i truly don't think this is something many folks understand unless they've seen one of their own incapable of some adult decisions...

 

hang in there!

ann

 

Thank you for this. I may be giving the impression that I have this all figured out, but I've been through (and continue to go through) a lot of sleepless nights and emotional pain with this girl. She carries a ton of credits and is pulling a 3.9GPA but her personal life is a mess. She is outwardly responsible and talks a good game so her professors love her and her grandparents are completely snowed. She has the perfectionist oldest child thing going on, so she hides her mistakes. She also has some entitlement issues and believes the usual rules don't apply to her. We will be working on this when she's home this summer.

 

Thank you for understanding (and Daisy and Osmosis mom) and for chiming in. This wasn't easy to share. I've always been proud of the way she was growing up, and this experience has been humbling, to say the least.

 

Barb

[RegGuheert]

 

I've also forbidden her to move into an apartment. If she is living away from home during college, she must live in a dorm all 4 years. Her dorms are brand new, clean, quiet, and nice but she chafes under the oversight. Too bad. I don't feel she's ready for the responsibility and the distractions of apartment life. I've told her that if she decides against our wishes to move into an apartment, she has just moved out of the house permanently and will be completely self-supporting from now on.

We have not forbidden DS19 from living in an apartment, but we have encouraged him to live on-campus all four years to save money. Living on campus means he does not need a car, car insurance, or even a license. It's actually difficult to get permission to stay on-campus for four years, so he had to work to make this happen.

This is particular to this daughter. We will reevaluate for each of our kids.

Precisely what we are doing. All of our children are different. DS19 and DD17 have very different goals and personalities, and they are going in different directions, which will cost US different amounts of money at different times. They are well aware that there is a lot of uncertainty in the economy and there are five more children following them. All these things are considered in any decision we take.

[Mommyof4ks]

This is an interesting thread. My kids are young still, but I was reading through here wondering what my parents were thinking when I left and got married at 19. I have always been strong willed and bull headed lol. I am not saying that is good for all 19 year olds, but 11 years later I can say with confidence that it worked for me. :001_smile:

 

Thinking ahead to my own children I can see my dd being the same way, and thus I will not push or 'police' her, because that will push her away. My youngest is only 4, so I don't yet know. My middle child is 6, and he is going to be something exceptional in life, but he will need help navigating into his 20s for sure. He can build complex mechanical things, but he forgets to put his coat on when it is cold and still has to ask where his dirty clothes goes. It amazes me really lol.

[chaik76]

Actually I'm going to quote myself here because I'd like to expand just a little bit. The OP was looking for perspective, or was maybe just looking to blow off steam and I stepped into the line of fire. <snip>

 

I just think it's a mistake to believe all 18-22yo's will be at the same place developmentally because they've reached a certain age. We don't believe that of 2yo's or 13yo's, right?

 

Barb

I really wasn't looking to blow off steam...I'm so sorry if it came across that way. I truly was wondering...it's just not something that is part of my family of upbringing, and I don't understand it. I do know that my children are very, very young and my ideas could change as they get older. Even when I disagree with posts (and I am not saying I necessarily disagree with yours) it is helpful to read the perspective of other people and see where they are coming from. Thank you so much for sharing so much and letting me see why you do things the way you do.

[HRAAB]

Total tangent here-

 

Dh comes from a tight Italian family where pooling resources is the norm. He also works with many different heritages where pooling family resources are the norm. America is a country where independence is praised, but at what cost? We've lost our support systems, our sense of community, our shared humanity. We boot our adult children out to take on mass amounts of debt and struggle well into thier later adulthood if they're not lucky.

 

Dh and I lived with his parents well before we were married. My MIL lived with her parents when they were newly married and took care of her mother when she was older, MILS parents lived with extended family when they immigrated. The ILs gave us loans to start our business, and Dh's sister's husband too. They could-they weren't saddled with debt from the get go, in turn they had the ability to help the next generation. We plan on doing the same, and we now have the ability to financially support them.

 

My BF is Vietnmese and her family all pool their $ and time. They own many, many houses, many, many businesses. All of their kids go to college, all contribute to the family.

 

I have always admired these cultures although I'm sure there are drawbacks. Thinking of making this work with extended family seems nigh impossible, but all of us were raised (especially dh's family) where independence was worshiped as a minor god. Coming from a culture where this is the norm, it's probably much, much easier.

 

I'm fully expecting my married dd and her dh to be living with us by summer. My dd is itching to return to college and her dh is a long haul truck driver, so he will need to find employment when he quits driving. With the economy the way it is, it just makes sense for us to pool our resources until they are on their feet or the economy starts righting itself - which I have seen no indication of here. That is a leap from where my dh and I were when we first married. There is no way we could have moved in dh's parents unless it was a major catastrophe (you were expected to take care of yourself, by yourself, on your own, in your own place, don't come home). We did live with my parents between houses for about 6 mos. I remember how much it helped us out.

 

My dd and dh will treated as adults members of our family.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Ishki

[Cindyg]

My parents had a tremendous amount of control over me between ages 18 and 24 (when I married). I'm not saying that's good, bad, or otherwise. I had no idea that I was "free" of their parental guidance the day I turned 18. Really -- it never occured to me!

 

The breaking free process was gradual in my case. I was not totally independent (financially and emotionally); nor was I particularly needy. They advised. They certainly had some rules, but I had much more freedom than I did when I was a high school student. They provided a car and room and board off and on. Also, my horse (and other pets) lived with them -- and don't think that was a small factor here. No way could I have supported my pets on my own when I was 19.

 

It was a gradual process of leaving which included college (sometimes living at home, sometimes not), employment, choosing a husband (no, they didn't choose him, but their approval was important to me), and finally moving a thousand miles away.

 

In retrospect, it was a good way to do it.

[KidsHappen]

Once my children are adults they are adults, and my children tend to become adults at fairly young ages. Once they are working, and responsible for their own school and own their own car and so are they are adult and allowed to make their own decisions as far as the law will allow. My children are welcome to live here for as long as they would like. I have even taken in one SO even though they are not married yet. If they are living with me (hasn't really happened much) they are required to obey house rules just same as any other adult guest but their requirements are not any higher than any other adult guest either. IOW, if my mother or mother in law was visiting, I would never dream of giving her a curfew but I would ask that they not smoke in my house. I would ask the same of my child.

 

 

As far as finacial support, I have set presedent with my older children that I do not intend to break with the youngers. I didn't buy them cars, or insurance, or lend money or pay room and board or any other such thing. The older two did not go to college but I will help with college financing whenever I can for all of the children and I will continue to pay for the first four years as long as they can go. SO if the school doesn't kick them out then I will continue to pay.

 

If IMO, my children are not adults by the time they are 18, well then I realize that it doesn't really matter what I think. They are legally adults and I really have no say in what they do. I can't control them nor would I try to. I can only hope that I have raised them well enough to make good decisions and ache for them when they have not.

[Osmosis Mom]

I also want to make the point that it is not merely a matter of being able to stand on your own feet. Growing up happens fast enough and being on your own is not always that great. To me prolonging my child's sense of home and security blanket is an act of love, not smothering nor dominance.

 

As Arabs, then yes, we also have a different culture about this, totally. Oldest dd is now at a college where being selfish and watching out for yourself is Priority #1. It's fine that she is learning to navigate those ropes, but darn it, she still has to keep our values of more communal sharing, lol!

 

And Barb, my oldest dd is also a lovely girl but yes, she is entitled and consequently appears a bit spoiled. Especially now when dh is laid-off, she is earning money of her own, her siblings are simply not asking for anything (bless their hearts) and she is still able to somewhat live the high life....without seeing their needs. I have actively been working recently on getting her down a notch, just because being empathetic seems to be learned in some people while others are born with this quality!!!!!

[Nan in Mass]

With exceptions, of course, I think the pattern of young married couples living fairly close to if not with their parents is pretty normal in most times and places. I think the growing-into-an-adult process is normally done gradually, if there are the resources and it doesn't go against cultural expectations. I think it is amazing what teens can do, given the chance. I had a 13yo manage to take the subway across Tokyo when his travel arrangements went awry. I had an 18yo commuting into Boston and messing about with gas lines and blow torches. Last summer I had a 15yo sailing a 2 ton boat around a crowded harbour. I also think it is amazing what they can't do, considering what they can. I am astounded at some of their bad decisions. If you ask them what they were thinking, you usually discover that either they weren't, or there was an irresistable temptation, or there was missing information. I think as parents of young adults, we can supply the missing information, not support or make possible (here's where finances come in) things that are a bad idea, and help bolster their self-discipline by making them aware that when they give in to temptation, the consequences spill over onto other people, too. That last bit is one of the hardest for teens, at least my teens, to swallow. They would love to be in a situation where if they chose to do something risky and got unlucky, the consequences would hurt only themselves. We just have to keep telling them that they were lucky enough to be born into a close, loving, generous family, and this is the down side. Eventually they understand that their aunts and uncles will mortgage their houses to pay their medical bills if they break themselves up doing something stupid, and they accept this burden.

 

Barb, I hope I didn't sound critical of what you have had to do with your daughter. We refused to pay for an apartment unless it was within walking distance of campus and our son had a meal plan, and we refused to send a car with him freshman year. We are offering lots of support to our college students. I know there are people here who put themselves through college at 18 with no help from their parents, but for every one of those who have succeeded, I think there are probably many more who tried and failed, or who didn't even know to try. This isn't a situation where only the very strong and very independent deserve to go to college. I think lots of us who wouldn't have been able to make it through without our parents' help have done just fine. The same with parenting. Unlike college (which I doubt I could have done on my own), I probably could have been a half decent parent as a teen. I am dead positive, though, that I was a much better parent in my mid-twenties, and a quite good one with my parents' help. And my parents will have a more comfortable old age (if we can convince my Dad to stop shoveling the driveway GRIN) with us all around to help them.

 

America is a big country, and it has only relatively recently been colonized. People were spread out or didn't have many resources or were torn apart, so we were forced to do independenly many things that people usually do with family support. Others of us came in family groups and could only survive by staying in family groups and pooling resources. I think this whole thread is a reflection of that, and of the differing cultures that make up the US. It has been interesting to read it all.

 

-Nan

[Impish]

Diva knows that we won't likely be in a position to pay for her college/university. She's welcome to live at home while pursuing secondary education...I think that its tough enough to work and go to school without worrying about rent and food.

 

That being said, if she chooses to move out, she'll be strongly encouraged to find a good stable female room mate(s), and reminded of our religious. moral beliefs and principles. I'd also do my best to help her find a good place to live.

 

This is, of course, smoke in the wind, since Diva is only 11. Who honestly knows who she'll be at 18? I *think* I know, but there's a lot of growing up to happen in the next 7 years.

 

I pray that I've held her to me well enough, loved her enough, parented her *right* enough, that she'll be able to stand tall, strong in her resolve, sticking to what she's been taught. I pray that for *her* benefit, not my own.

 

I hope I'm wise enough to let go, a little at a time, so that when the final independence comes, we're both ready, and its not a rending tear, but a gentle easing.

 

I love my kids. I want them to be strong individuals...and I don't ever want to be the mom that clings to the child's neck, making them drag her along.

[Jane in NC]

 

Choosing children's majors and course of life is a different thing. You can offer advice and perspective, but dominating is not my thing.

 

One of the teens we know has been told by his parents that they will not pay for a college degree in the humanities, feeling that humanities are hobbies. They will only financially assist their child with post-secondary education if the student pursues a technical degree. I don't agree with this sort of micro-managing of a child's life. Advice can be given, suggestions made, but specifying a course of college study??

 

 

America is a big country, and it has only relatively recently been colonized. People were spread out or didn't have many resources or were torn apart, so we were forced to do independenly many things that people usually do with family support. Others of us came in family groups and could only survive by staying in family groups and pooling resources. I think this whole thread is a reflection of that, and of the differing cultures that make up the US. It has been interesting to read it all.

 

-Nan

 

Yes, this has been interesting to read, particularly since I have a child who will turn 18 this year. He will most likely attend college in another state. I trust him to make good decisions, but I know that this may not always be the case. One thing that I want my son to have is not only a solid support system of adults within the family but of other adults. My son has essentially been adopted by another family in a community where we own a summer cottage. There are adopted grandparents, aunts and uncles. If my son cannot talk to his Dad or me about something, there are many adults to whom he can reach out.

 

One thing than can help our children transition from childhood to adulthood: take them seriously. I am amazed by certain family members who question me about my son's future when my son is sitting next to me and can be asked these questions directly. I feel sorry for children whose parents tell me "Well Johnny wants to _______, but that will never happen. So I'm not even trying to help him achieve that goal." When the goal is large, I have helped my son break it down into steps that can be achieved. Children (and young adults) do not know how to do this automatically.

 

I do not believe that any of us can leave the nest at eighteen with a complete "real world" skill set. The best we can do as parents is cultivate the desire to learn, teach respect (for self and the world) and bolster the ability to ask questions. And let the children know they can phone home anytime...

[TravelingChris]

I didn't think I would have this idea (not paying for humanities but paying for science or technology) but it is actually crossing my mind. Why? Well my first is getting a humanities degree, philosophy, and is going to apply to grad school and try to become a professor. While philosophy wouldn't have been my choice, we see it is his and he is good at it and we did think he would become a professor since he was little. (He thought he would go into the military but we didn't). The second is wavering between some type of psychology/neuroscience degree, and political science. She probably wants to become a prosecutor and her personality is a perfect match for that. Then comes number three. Her gifts are math/science/engineering. SO she is 13 and although all her Odyssey of Mind group can tell she is the engineering power, although her robotics class can tell, although we can tell, she has decided that it is boring. THe problem with her is that she is an extrovert and I think she doesn't like being in an introvert world. (our family is also 4 introverts plus her)/ Now I don't need to threaten or withhold funding yet at all. THat won't be my first strategy. AMong other plans are for her to continue emailing a friend who is also an extrovert and an engineering girl. Furthermore, I will be taking her to women in engineering events and hopefully getting her into a summer engineering program. Now what if she decides to follow through on her stubborn ideas and four or five years from now is still intending to major in things she isn't good at? I don't know right now.

[Nan in Mass]

LOL - Or get a cell phone so they can reach you. My oldest, who had been living on his own, supporting himself, in Boston, insisted that I get a cell phone when he went off to college, so he could get me (I'm away from the house phone a lot). I try to drop what I am doing, take a breath, and pretend I have all the time in the world when he calls. I talk to him every few days. Sometimes, it is to offer help, but as he is sophomore now and has most of that figured out. Now a days, it is more likely to be something he wants to tell me about. Last week he called to tell me that he was sewing some pile into a pair of pants to make them warmer. He called to say thank you for teaching him to sew and let me know that it was coming in handy. The week before, it was to tell me that he had spent 6 hours tracking a deer through the woods and gotten lost, to tell me he remembered the tracking we had done when he homeschooled.

-Nan

PS - Jane - I got your msg. Books came. I'm answer when I get back from driving. : )

Edited January 19, 2010 by Nan in Mass